quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: While I understand your sentiment you do understand what you are saying don't you. You are implying that a certain kind of person be treated differently. The law is only as good as we want it to be and it can not ever discriminate and still be a rule of law.

yes.
why is speeding something to get police attention? no crime is actually being committed.
why is driving drunk such a demonic thing to do anymore? no crime is actually being committed.
the answer is: odds are favorable that trouble will follow.
profiling.
out in the open, by choice profiling. everything above is purely a choice made by the driver. as is the choice to drive a rice-mobile, or whatever else you wanna call a street racer type vehicle.

overall - I find ALL traffic law to be BS - and traffic rules should merely be suggestions. but - not gonna happen.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Is it somehow illegal to modify your car?

This just struck me as funny, 2.5, I'm not laughing at you. But, your post following some of the other posts is somewhat funny IMO,

We (the police) are looking for stolen engines, transmissions, speed parts in general. So where are we (police) supposed to look? Using the example given by Vonov, we're looking for that Honda Si engine. Should we be looking in Caddys, Lincolns, BMWs or might we want to look in those quick little externally modified Hondas that we keep catching street racing. You know, those guys and girls that have the fast ones, the folks that try to out run us, the ones that have their cars impounded because they also have the same stolen things we're looking for. Is that profiling? I think not.

If I'm looking for a cattle thief, should I look inside that cattle truck first. That truck is headed to the meat packing plant where it's impossible to track a dead cows meat. But, let's see, there are disease carrying cattle in that truck, should I just ignore that or let that diseased cow go to market with Mad Cow disease. The point being, once you start a search as a law enforcement officer, what you find that against the law isn't profiling, it's enforcement. Can someone use that power to expound on their prejudices, hell yes but, that's why we need high standards for our police forces.


Is it profiling when the cops put DWI check points on roads leading to/from bars and clubs? Could be, or it could be enforcement in the most likely place. Don't like it, don't participate. If you still want to go do whatever and you get stopped and searched and yet you're totally innocent, think about the crowd you're running with, someone might have given the cops a reason to suspect you and your car, crowd, whatever.

Oh, BTW, some modifications are illegal. Are you running a Cat on your car? A lot of us aren't. A lot of us are. Open headers, same issue. Should a cop stop every loud car? Is that discrimination? Could be, or, maybe it's enforcement. It all depends on perspective as to whether or not it's discrimination or maybe, it's using the "D" word to make it the cops fault for us getting stopped. Profiling, could be, could be enforcement.

BTW, I also believe that you still have rights, if you don't want the cop looking in your car, make him (if applicable) get a search warrant.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 04-09-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: yes. why is speeding something to get police attention? no crime is actually being committed. why is driving drunk such a demonic thing to do anymore? no crime is actually being committed. the answer is: odds are favorable that trouble will follow. profiling. out in the open, by choice profiling. everything above is purely a choice made by the driver. as is the choice to drive a rice-mobile, or whatever else you wanna call a street racer type vehicle. overall - I find ALL traffic law to be BS - and traffic rules should merely be suggestions. but - not gonna happen.

What would happen if this was left unchecked. Laws are inflexible and crimes are preventable but who decides where the line has to be drawn between? The people we have designed the system to use for these decisions are the civilian police. They are people just like anyone else and given to their own beliefs of right and wrong. They will balance their own judgment against the law and mostly to the benefit of all but is that always the case?
No that isn't always the case. In many cases the law and the authority we have given them is abused and used as a means to an end. Their idea of the right end. The law isn't supposed to be about the little things or even the individual. The human factor is supposed to take care of the little things and the individual. These concepts clash and they should clash as in a balance of powers to remain a usable system. Not a perfect system but a usable system. Letting the balance go to far in any direction will lead to failure.

Hard stead fast ideas will never work. Taking responsibility out of peoples hands will never work. Control is an illusion used by the fearful.

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Though I am branded a devil in priests clothing I cast not the raiment I wear for I am not beholden to any flock with which any color has been given to me.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: What would happen if this was left unchecked. Laws are inflexible and crimes are preventable but who decides where the line has to be drawn between? The people we have designed the system to use for these decisions are the civilian police. They are people just like anyone else and given to their own beliefs of right and wrong. They will balance their own judgment against the law and mostly to the benefit of all but is that always the case? No that isn't always the case. In many cases the law and the authority we have given them is abused and used as a means to an end. Their idea of the right end. The law isn't supposed to be about the little things or even the individual. The human factor is supposed to take care of the little things and the individual. These concepts clash and they should clash as in a balance of powers to remain a usable system. Not a perfect system but a usable system. Letting the balance go to far in any direction will lead to failure. Hard stead fast ideas will never work. Taking responsibility out of peoples hands will never work. Control is an illusion used by the fearful.

yup.
now, apply what you just said to the actual case here
150 vehicles loitering on private property

there are plenty of legitimate ways to do what they were doing. we will be doing it ourselves July 25 & 26. with track time. the exact same thing.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: yup. now, apply what you just said to the actual case here 150 vehicles loitering on private property there are plenty of legitimate ways to do what they were doing. we will be doing it ourselves July 25 & 26. with track time. the exact same thing.

Well, almost the exact same thing, 1) We're invited. 2) We won't (or shouldn't be) street racing, our racing should be on the track. I know that some will feel the "need for speed", hopfully, they'll be able to control those urges.

Ron

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[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 12-05-2008).]

Then they aren't loiterers---they're customers. If they're after hours, they may be trespassers. The problem is that most of those gatherings sooner or later result in tangible damage to the property or unnecessary expense to the owner of said property, and in some cases, financial loss to the businesses at the location, because the customers they do cater to begin avoiding the location.

quote why is speeding something to get police attention? no crime is actually being committed. why is driving drunk such a demonic thing to do anymore? no crime is actually being committed.

Actually a crime is being committed in both cases, as the law is being broken in both cases. You can be stopped for going 1 MPH over the speed limit in theory. If an officer smells alcohol on you, when he stopped you, or you were driving erratically, be prepared to be tested for DUI. Don't be surprised if you are ticketed for speeding or arrested for being DUI. The laws say you aren't supposed to be doing these things in the first place, it doesn't matter if you didn't hurt anyone or anything while doing them. That would just make it worse for you.

quote Originally posted by Vonov: Discrimination against who, Curly? People who have their cars modified? In that case, maybe---but if a car is modified appearance-wise, chances are, it's modified at least somewhat mechanically. I realize it's annoying (I've been stopped too, and having a badge doesn't make any difference in a lot of cases, especially when you're dealing with state cops) but SOME standard has to be applied as to who you're going to check out, and the owners of stock vehicles rarely indulge in gatherings for the purpose of street racing, nor do they in most cases have stolen engines/trannies under their hoods, as do so many of the street racing crowd. Speed is expensive for the most part, and a lot of those folks just don't care about who it hurts, as long as they get what THEY want.

Yes. Your example of "modified appearance" is flawed is nothing more than profiling for many individual have cars that are modified in appearance. Using your "modified appearance" lets test your theory.
1. After market rims.
2. After market exhaust system.
3. Lowered 2"
4. Racing strips down the side of car.


Tell me, how many cars today on the road fit this "modified appearance"? It would be reasonable to say, many cars on the road have at least 3 out of the 4 items listed; including Fiero owners. Yet, I've never been pulled over in a Fiero, Mercedes, or a SUV, but I have many times while driving a import.

You've mention that it's "annoying (I've been stopped too, and having a badge doesn't make any difference in a lot of cases"). How many times would you view being pulled over "annoying"? Twice or four times a year? Multiply those umber (x) the number of American citizens who are pulled over but don't have illegal modifications.

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[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 12-05-2008).]

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: For that matter, why not profile cars that were designed to be able to go fast, such as Corvettes, Porsches, etc? It makes sense that a law-abiding citizen would have no need for a car that can go as fast as one of those so therefor they must be criminals that only appear to be legal simply because they haven't been caught yet. JazzMan

Makes sense to me, especially if we're looking for stolen Corvette or Porsche, etc stuff. Or if the data shows that those are the vehicles out there street racing. I've seen more than one Vette and Porsche pulled over on the interstate.

well - lets see:
what if owners stayed open later? who know's .... but - permission goes a long way
and - I dunno where "car thief" came from. but - to deny profiling on something that is 100% by choice - and very specific in purpose choice - is just downright silly.

and, on to speeding & drunk driving being a crime.....well, I guess thats a matter of definition. if you wanna go with the simplistic "written law" thing, fine, I guess thats that then.

on how many cars on the road fit this "modified appearance"? very few. most cars are as-is. and - next - when you make your car attract attention - it will accomplish just that - attract attention. this includes police attention.

I guess that really bears repeating: when you make your car attract attention - it will accomplish just that - attract attention. this includes police attention.

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[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 12-05-2008).]

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: From here it's just a tiny little step, almost trivial really, to ban performance cars simply because they're capable of breaking the law, and only criminals would want a car that's capable of breaking the law. IIRC, Honda Accords are high up on the list of stolen vehicles so it makes sense to pull over and VIN-check the parts on every Honda Accord on the road. Since they're more likely to be stolen, and all that. JazzMan

and again where profiling comes in. there are plenty of performance cars out there. many many many many. and, the owners know that driving them, you must be careful, because the police will have the hairy eyeball on them from start to finish. so, guess what? they drive nice. they stay clear of problems. they join clubs, have meets, have track days, go to the strip - do it right & proper. and, everyone is happy.

maybe profiling isnt the right term here. it does seem the whole issue is the level of maturity. the "ricers" are just to impatient & immature, and get themselves busted - and then cry fual - profiling. even tho ANYONE behaving like that would have been busted. take 150 cars of ANY kind, park after hours at the mall, and see what happens. yes - even minivans.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: From here it's just a tiny little step, almost trivial really, to ban performance cars simply because they're capable of breaking the law, and only criminals would want a car that's capable of breaking the law. IIRC, Honda Accords are high up on the list of stolen vehicles so it makes sense to pull over and VIN-check the parts on every Honda Accord on the road. Since they're more likely to be stolen, and all that. JazzMan

Personally, that's reaching way out there but OK, if you say so.

Every Honda Accord, again, reaching way out there. Whether it's Honda or Fieros, certain speed parts and certain socio-economic groups are more likely to be interested in coming together. There is little doubt that "street racers" would be more interested in the high performance goodies than granny but, if you think it's a good idea to pull all Accords over and have our police waste their time and our money doing searches of granny's car just so they aren't profiling a certain group. OK I'm not sure that's the most effective use of our resources to curb the theft of those Honda speed goodies. But, OK.

I'm not convinced that your proposed approach will stop the theft of those "speed goodies". I'm thinking the police may have a better plan at this point.

Ron

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 04-10-2008).]

Let put the shoe on the other foot;

During the 25th many of our Fieros will no doubt be heavily modified ; should we expect the police department revenue to increase by them sectioning off the area and checking for illegal modifications?

quote Originally posted by madcurl: Let put the shoe on the other foot; During the 25th many of our Fieros will no doubt be heavily modified ; should we expect the police department revenue to increase by them sectioning off the area and checking for illegal modifications?

exactly much of the point here:
* we have permission *
and - the driving events will be on race tracks NOT public streets
there are car shows & meets all the time which have little to no police intervention.

yes, I understand the frustration. its hard to be the Hot Dog when all the other folks have hot cars too. much easier to be the top dog in a non-competitive poser environment.

quote Originally posted by madcurl: Yet, I've never been pulled over in a Fiero, Mercedes, or a SUV, but I have many times while driving a import.

So, let me get this straight...you've never been pulled over in a Mercedes, Fiero, or SUV...but have been while driving an import...so you were saying earlier it was because you were DWB? You can't have it both ways, man. I submit that if you got pulled over in an import, it was because of how you were driving, where you were at that particular time of day (example, industrial/office park areas are notorious for street racing and concealing chop shop operations), or other factors having nothing to do with who you are or what you look like (such as exhaust noise?).
And if you want to call it profiling, fine, but let's not link it to race. If I happen to know that Ryder rental trucks are the choice of successful terrorists everywhere (like OKC and the first WTC bombing) and I know they're most likely to move weapons and explosives into position for an attack after midnight on Sunday nights, because that's when all the downtown parking is least crowded, I'd be irresponsible, and perhaps criminally negligent, in not at least looking at those vehicles. If you're driving one, and you have all your documents and equipment in order, you'll be on your way in short order. If not, I'm going to look at you a little more carefully. It's what you taxpayers pay me for. If I get blown up or shot checking it out, that's also part of it. Of course, if I'm unable to use the information I've just outlined above, because using those criteria is politically incorrect, then you can thank whoever you wish, but don't point fingers at us when that big bright flash occurs, and all the hand-wringing begins over how we could've prevented it. Yes, it's an extreme example, but the point is just as valid. If you don't like paying outrageous theft insurance premiums, and you're not breaking the law, then get involved, and let us know when someone's selling hot parts, instead of looking the other way. If the problem becomes small enough, we'll go find other things to do.
I'm done.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: and again where profiling comes in. there are plenty of performance cars out there. many many many many. and, the owners know that driving them, you must be careful, because the police will have the hairy eyeball on them from start to finish. so, guess what? they drive nice. they stay clear of problems. they join clubs, have meets, have track days, go to the strip - do it right & proper. and, everyone is happy. maybe profiling isnt the right term here. it does seem the whole issue is the level of maturity. the "ricers" are just to impatient & immature, and get themselves busted - and then cry fual - profiling. even tho ANYONE behaving like that would have been busted. take 150 cars of ANY kind, park after hours at the mall, and see what happens.

Definately! I've yet to see a bunch of Corvette or AMG owners gathering in a closed shopping center parking lot at 11:30 PM, its always the "ricers".

I wonder what they do there, being dark and all in the middle of the night. The Corvette owners have the good sense to hold their meets in the daylight.

quote Originally posted by madcurl: Let put the shoe on the other foot; During the 25th many of our Fieros will no doubt be heavily modified ; should we expect the police department revenue to increase by them sectioning off the area and checking for illegal modifications?

The way I figure it, if I get caught speeding, I'm the one responsible, Even if everyone else is doing the same thing. As a very polite police officer told me once when I pointed out that everyone else was speeding, he said,
"I can't catch them all but, I got you." He was right. If, I'm so bold as to take a illegally modified car out on the street, then I'm in the wrong. I know better and still did it. Am I going to blame the cop, I think NOT. Wasn't his/her decision.

Ron

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 04-10-2008).]

quote Originally posted by blackrams: The way I figure it, if I get caught speeding, I'm the one responsible, Even if everyone else is doing the same thing. As a very polite police officer told me once when I pointed out that everyone else was speeding, he said, "I can't catch them all but, I got you." He was right. If, I'm so bold as to take a illegally modified car out on the street, then I'm in the wrong. I know better and still did it. Am I going to blame the cop, I think NOT. Wasn't his/her decision. Ron

Your avoiding the question; are you okay with an officer rounding up Fiero (in a parking lot) owners to check for illegal modification? Just like many import kids, Fiero owners need not be speeding or speed outs; just enjoying themselves in the parking lot and here comes the cops and nobody is allowed to leave and the cops want make sure that nobody has a stolen 3800SC.

You see from this example, the shoe is on the other foot. Therefore violating the rights of others is same as any car group that want to enjoy themselves without being staked endlessly by greedy city official and over zealot officers.

quote Originally posted by madcurl: Your avoiding the question; are you okay with an officer rounding up Fiero (in a parking lot) owners to check for illegal modification? Just like many import kids, Fiero owners need not be speeding or speed outs; just enjoying themselves in the parking lot and here comes the cops and nobody is allowed to leave and the cops want make sure that nobody has a stolen 3800SC. You see from this example, the shoe is on the other foot. Therefore violating the rights of others is same as any car group that want to enjoy themselves without being staked endlessly by greedy city official and over zealot officers.

I can easily answer this with a yes.
ANY group of 100+ vehicles in a parking lot, after hours, is suspect.
ANY

minivans, corvettes, skateboards, rollerblades, and - yes - Fiero's.
in fact - they dont even need vehicles to attract police attention - it could just be the people in the parking lot after hours. you seem to be glossing over the actual problem here: location location location.

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[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 12-05-2008).]

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: The solution is simple then: Make it illegal to have parking lots big enough to hold an assembly of people, with th maximum legal quantity to be determined by the government. In the case of the Arlington, Texas police department harrassment of the motorcyclists there are two establishments that share the same parking lot, Taco Cabana and Boston Market. Boston Market closes at 9pm and Taco Cabana closes at midnight. On Thursday nights the riders showed up around 9pm, regular as clockwork, and the manager of Boston Market stayed open late to serve them. So Pyrthian, this assembly was legitimate in every meaning you've defined so far: Arriving during regular hours of Taco Cabana and tacit approval by Boston Market as evidenced by Boston Market staying open late to serve the motorcyclists. Some educational reading for you: Why the freedom of assembly is a Constitutional Right: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment Why the police can't arbitrarily go through your life looking for something that you may have done wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wik..._States_Constitution If a group of police officers came knocking on your door one morning and asked if they could search your house, yard, workplace, bank and phone records, and car(s) to see if there was anything suspicious or illegal, would you say yes or no? What if a police officer stopped you in a parking lot and said to you, "I have no evidence that you've committed a crime but I'd like to search your car and person looking for something that I can arrest or cite you for. If you're a law abiding citizen then you have nothing to hide, and if you refuse me it means that you're hiding something from me and are therefor a criminal", would you agree to the search? JazzMan

I dont see a problem here at all?
so the bikers went to Taco Cabana & Boston Market, and got fed?
sry...not a reader....no attention span....

being a person who OFTEN has illegal items in my car - I know. I need to know. after all, I am a regular & steady illegal drug user. this means buying & transporting illegal stuff is part of my week.
but - yes - I have refused searches - and, I have been searched on what I consider insufficient grounds. been on all sides of this.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: I can easily answer this with a yes. ANY group of 100+ vehicles in a parking lot, after hours, is suspect. ANY minivans, corvettes, skateboards, rollerblades, and - yes - Fiero's. in fact - they dont even need vehicles to attract police attention - it could just be the people in the parking lot after hours. you seem to be glossing over the actual problem here: location location location.

I view it more as time than location. If the business is closed, then you aren't there to do business. That makes your gathering somewhat suspect, but suspect does not equate probable cause. Do the police want to patrol the area? Maybe stake out the lot looking for illegal activity? Hey, no problem there. Heck, add some beat cops to walk among the crowd looking for problems. But detaining and searching without probable cause or warrant is a violation of rights.

quote Originally posted by blackrams: This just struck me as funny, 2.5, I'm not laughing at you. But, your post following some of the other posts is somewhat funny IMO, We (the police) are looking for stolen engines, transmissions, speed parts in general. So where are we (police) supposed to look? Using the example given by Vonov, we're looking for that Honda Si engine. Should we be looking in Caddys, Lincolns, BMWs or might we want to look in those quick little externally modified Hondas that we keep catching street racing. You know, those guys and girls that have the fast ones, the folks that try to out run us, the ones that have their cars impounded because they also have the same stolen things we're looking for. Is that profiling? I think not. If I'm looking for a cattle thief, should I look inside that cattle truck first. That truck is headed to the meat packing plant where it's impossible to track a dead cows meat. But, let's see, there are disease carrying cattle in that truck, should I just ignore that or let that diseased cow go to market with Mad Cow disease. The point being, once you start a search as a law enforcement officer, what you find that against the law isn't profiling, it's enforcement. Can someone use that power to expound on their prejudices, hell yes but, that's why we need high standards for our police forces. Is it profiling when the cops put DWI check points on roads leading to/from bars and clubs? Could be, or it could be enforcement in the most likely place. Don't like it, don't participate. If you still want to go do whatever and you get stopped and searched and yet you're totally innocent, think about the crowd you're running with, someone might have given the cops a reason to suspect you and your car, crowd, whatever. Oh, BTW, some modifications are illegal. Are you running a Cat on your car? A lot of us aren't. A lot of us are. Open headers, same issue. Should a cop stop every loud car? Is that discrimination? Could be, or, maybe it's enforcement. It all depends on perspective as to whether or not it's discrimination or maybe, it's using the "D" word to make it the cops fault for us getting stopped. Profiling, could be, could be enforcement. BTW, I also believe that you still have rights, if you don't want the cop looking in your car, make him (if applicable) get a search warrant.

I don't know if you get my question, SO I can't legally put a cam, intake, hi po heads etc on my classic car???

quote Originally posted by 2.5: I don't know if you get my question, SO I can't legally put a cam, intake, hi po heads etc on my classic car???

well, you can, but, in some states - you wont be able to drive it in that state due to emmisions. this was California - with the mighty CARB standards.

Don't ya just get varying grades of CAT to fix your emissions? I'm out of the loop in MN we don't test. Plus I thought for classics you were held to teh standard of the year the car was sold, for pollutant tests. I guess it don't apply to "tuners".

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Don't ya just get varying grades of CAT to fix your emissions? I'm out of the loop in MN we don't test. Plus I thought for classics you were held to teh standard of the year the car was sold, for pollutant tests. I guess it don't apply to "tuners".

yup - no testing here either. no CAT at all. so, yes - to many of us who DONT live in the Republik of California - it seems outragous.

quote Originally posted by madcurl: Your avoiding the question; are you okay with an officer rounding up Fiero (in a parking lot) owners to check for illegal modification? Just like many import kids, Fiero owners need not be speeding or speed outs; just enjoying themselves in the parking lot and here comes the cops and nobody is allowed to leave and the cops want make sure that nobody has a stolen 3800SC. You see from this example, the shoe is on the other foot. Therefore violating the rights of others is same as any car group that want to enjoy themselves without being staked endlessly by greedy city official and over zealot officers.

Didn't mean to avoid the question, been having to make a living, dang it. To answer your question, I've got no problem letting any police officer look at any of my cars any time. I'd obviously prefer it to be at a time convenient to me but, whenever. You see, I assume there's a reason they want to look at my car and since I have nothing to hide, it doesn't bother me.

Now, I'll admit that if this were to happen repeatedly after I have proven repeatedly that I don't have any stolen or illegal issues, then, I have a right to gripe about harrassment. Just like I don't have a problem showing the police my driver's license at DUI check points, I don't run into them everyday so, IMO, it's no big dea, if it gets some DUI driver's off the road, it's worth it. But, that isn't mentioned in the story. If you want to look for issues, there's always one you can find.

If I was inclined to be in a parking lot after all the businesses were closed, it would not surprise me to have the police stop by for a visit and I would not be offended if they wanted to look at my car or asked me to move on.
As my ole pappy used to say, nothing good happens after midnight out on the streets.

Ron

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 04-11-2008).]

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[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 12-05-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Vonov: So, let me get this straight...you've never been pulled over in a Mercedes, Fiero, or SUV...but have been while driving an import...so you were saying earlier it was because you were DWB? You can't have it both ways, man. I submit that if you got pulled over in an import, it was because of how you were driving, where you were at that particular time of day (example, industrial/office park areas are notorious for street racing and concealing chop shop operations), or other factors having nothing to do with who you are or what you look like (such as exhaust noise?). And if you want to call it profiling, fine, but let's not link it to race. If I happen to know that Ryder rental trucks are the choice of successful terrorists everywhere (like OKC and the first WTC bombing) and I know they're most likely to move weapons and explosives into position for an attack after midnight on Sunday nights, because that's when all the downtown parking is least crowded, I'd be irresponsible, and perhaps criminally negligent, in not at least looking at those vehicles. If you're driving one, and you have all your documents and equipment in order, you'll be on your way in short order. If not, I'm going to look at you a little more carefully. It's what you taxpayers pay me for. If I get blown up or shot checking it out, that's also part of it. Of course, if I'm unable to use the information I've just outlined above, because using those criteria is politically incorrect, then you can thank whoever you wish, but don't point fingers at us when that big bright flash occurs, and all the hand-wringing begins over how we could've prevented it. Yes, it's an extreme example, but the point is just as valid. If you don't like paying outrageous theft insurance premiums, and you're not breaking the law, then get involved, and let us know when someone's selling hot parts, instead of looking the other way. If the problem becomes small enough, we'll go find other things to do. I'm done.

Please Vonov, "I've been pulled over so many times DWB," I could right a book about it. Officers using "import profiling" is just another tactic used to distant themselves from law abiding public. It serves no purpose, but divide, segregate by casting a dragnet upon not only for those whom have illegal modification and is another tactic upon those whom are non-white. Instead of using the typical DWB scenerio now officers have the "import" tool at there service. Is it any wonder why many lawsuits filed due to corrupted officer using the "DWB" and therefor the city pays. A good doctor friend of mine sued the city "big time" because he too was viewed as "suspicious" and roughed up a bit. The officer didn't know he lived in the neighborhood and had the right connections; after all, "a black guy jogging in a $800,000 area at dusk must be up to no good". The same is true for those whom are innocent driving an import. Give it some time, the lawsuits will follow when a officer will pull over someone (white or black), maybe beat him and with the right connections-a lawsuit.

As in my case, the officer lied. Period. The officers original actions was "car profiling" and by running my plates and identifying me as "black" thus the pull over. The time of day/night has no bearing on their reasons for falsely pulling over any motorist and to use a lie. In this case, the lie used was, "driving over the white line." A vague statement used to proceed to get a motorist to agree with the stop, thus the officer then will allow for continued harassments (check for illegal modifications or for drugs ect..). As for my import, its legal and has CARB approved items and therefor was no reason for officer to pull me over. I was allowed to leave after 30 minutes or so, with no ticket, nor any vehicle violation, and no apology or excuse given.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: I don't know if you get my question, SO I can't legally put a cam, intake, hi po heads etc on my classic car???

Define "Classic Car". If you think your 87 Mustang GT is a classic, it's not. At least not according to the DMV. It used to be there was a rolling 30 year period before a model would be exempt from biannual smog inspections. That ended in 2005. So I can tune up my old 318 in my 75 Dart, but that is the last year that will be exempt. Now we hotrod the 21st century way, with turbos and fuel injection and smog legal computer tuning.

quote Originally posted by blackrams: Didn't mean to avoid the question, been having to make a living, dang it. To answer your question, I've got no problem letting any police officer look at any of my cars any time. I'd obviously prefer it to be at a time convenient to me but, whenever. You see, I assume there's a reason they want to look at my car and since I have nothing to hide, it doesn't bother me. Now, I'll admit that if this were to happen repeatedly after I have proven repeatedly that I don't have any stolen or illegal issues, then, I have a right to gripe about harrassment.

That is a foolish viewpoint. You just said you have no problem being assumed guilty and having to PROVE yourself innocent. And you can't see the danger in that?
Please wake up.

"We have reason to believe you have stolen parts in your car. Do you have the proof of purchase for the engine in your car?"
--"No. That's the engine that came with the car."
"You're under arrest for possession of stolen property since you couldn't prove you didn't steal that engine."

quote Originally posted by Formula88: That is a foolish viewpoint. You just said you have no problem being assumed guilty and having to PROVE yourself innocent. And you can't see the danger in that? Please wake up. "We have reason to believe you have stolen parts in your car. Do you have the proof of purchase for the engine in your car?" --"No. That's the engine that came with the car." "You're under arrest for possession of stolen property since you couldn't prove you didn't steal that engine."

I think it is even more basic than that.
Nothing to hide is a poor reason to give up a right and in giving up any rights for any reason it demeans them.
You either have rights worth protecting or you don't. A matter of convenience or innocence should not sway anyone to lesson their meaning.

Allow it once and the door is open for a new status quo. Cops have ideas of their own as to right and wrong and without the laws and our rights you will be at the mercy of the unknown conviction by your appointed protector. Maybe the cop is sure you are guilty of something but doesn't have the evidence so while he checks your car for "nothing to hide" by your permission suddenly there is something and you are the only one surprised. Good bye you're gone. A victim of nothing to hide.

Maybe people think this is untealistic? Maybe that is part of the problem.

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Though I am branded a devil in priests clothing I cast not the raiment I wear for I am not beholden to any flock with which any color has been given to me.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: That is a foolish viewpoint.

Well, I've been called worse. I might agree with you if I had ever seen any type of activity as you're describing by police, but that hasn't happened and isn't likely to IMO, as I said before, "nothing good happens after midnight on the streets", yeah, I know your scenerio could happen anytime but, as this story was about 100 + cars and their driver's hanging out in a private parking lot, I don't see that happening.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: I think it is even more basic than that. Nothing to hide is a poor reason to give up a right and in giving up any rights for any reason it demeans them. Maybe people think this is untealistic? Maybe that is part of the problem.

I don't see it that way but then, I'll bet we have significantly different life activities. I seldom give the police a reason to even look my way. I'm not suggesting you do but, I don't seem to have any of the problems you've mentioned. Never have, but I'm a pretty boring person.

Ron

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 04-12-2008).]

quote Originally posted by madcurl: Please Vonov, "I've been pulled over so many times DWB," I could right a book about it. Officers using "import profiling" is just another tactic used to distant themselves from law abiding public. It serves no purpose, but divide, segregate by casting a dragnet upon not only for those whom have illegal modification and is another tactic upon those whom are non-white. Instead of using the typical DWB scenerio now officers have the "import" tool at there service. Is it any wonder why many lawsuits filed due to corrupted officer using the "DWB" and therefor the city pays. A good doctor friend of mine sued the city "big time" because he too was viewed as "suspicious" and roughed up a bit. The officer didn't know he lived in the neighborhood and had the right connections; after all, "a black guy jogging in a $800,000 area at dusk must be up to no good". The same is true for those whom are innocent driving an import. Give it some time, the lawsuits will follow when a officer will pull over someone (white or black), maybe beat him and with the right connections-a lawsuit. As in my case, the officer lied. Period. The officers original actions was "car profiling" and by running my plates and identifying me as "black" thus the pull over. The time of day/night has no bearing on their reasons for falsely pulling over any motorist and to use a lie. In this case, the lie used was, "driving over the white line." A vague statement used to proceed to get a motorist to agree with the stop, thus the officer then will allow for continued harassments (check for illegal modifications or for drugs ect..). As for my import, its legal and has CARB approved items and therefor was no reason for officer to pull me over. I was allowed to leave after 30 minutes or so, with no ticket, nor any vehicle violation, and no apology or excuse given.

Well, Madcurl, let me put it this way...I completely agree with your assessment that there are some bad apples out there, and ANY officer in this day and time, who is stupid enough to lie about the reason for a stop to cover his harassment of persons of color, deserves exactly what he will eventually get: a trip to federal court, and likely a stretch in the United States Penetentiary for civil rights violations. (Yes, that does happen. There are also state statutes for the crime of official oppression.)
But tell me...how do you propose to find out who's running stolen equipment, and who's out there late at night, when most of the crimes are committed, if we stop making traffic stops? I'm always open for new ideas. If I can find a way to reduce crime AND stop making the citizens angry at cops because of traffic stops, I'll likely be the next Chief of Police in my city! (One is as likely as the other, lol.)

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Is it somehow illegal to modify your car?

In Kalifornia, ( and other emission states ) i think it is illegal to do many things to your engine...

quote Originally posted by blackrams: I don't see it that way but then, I'll bet we have significantly different life activities. I seldom give the police a reason to even look my way. I'm not suggesting you do but, I don't seem to have any of the problems you've mentioned. Never have, but I'm a pretty boring person. Ron

The thing is that you should fight for every right not just for yourself or people like you but for everyone and especially people different than you.