quote Originally posted by intlcutlass: I am aware he didn't know anything. .... Do I feel safe that I will never be held for torture? Yep, I am pretty sure I will never be detained. But you can call the Fed's if you like? Tell them I said Hi....

I find this amazing. You acknowledge that he didn't know anything and that he was picked up because he happened to speak to the wrong people, yet you don't think that could ever happen to you?

I hope you feel just as secure in your convictions if it ever does happen to you, or a loved one.

A friend of mine is Lebanese. He's also a U.S. Citizen. He goes back to Lebanon every summer to visit family. In today's climate, I have to wonder if it's safe for me to be seen in public with him. If you don't associate with "brown" people, I guess you're safe.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 09-25-2006).]

I have sunk as low as you now, Patrick. My replies to your ..'points'... are starred below. They are constructed in your vein..but still bear validity IMHO, despite the method.



Scott, thanks for saving me the trouble of having to deal with that particular post. I'm glad to hear that someone else felt it was totally uncalled for, as I was rather put off when I read it myself. Perhaps Nick and I shouldn't debate serious issues anymore. It didn't go well the last time we tried this either.

However, I'll respond to Nick's previous post...

quote
Originally posted by fierofetish:

He came to the West, at the age of 17, from a Country which hates America and the West.





Are you suggesting EVERY person from that country "hates America and the West"? That's an awfully large brush you've got.
** UNBELIEVABLY INANE COMMENT***********

quote
Originally posted by fierofetish:

He has associates who are known Syrian terrorists. ( or so we are lead to believe..I can't prove, or disprove, that. Neither can anybody else on this Forum, or any other, for that matter, unless you have known him all his life.)





Are they "terrorists" or "suspects"? Or does it matter anymore?
***YES*****

quote
Originally posted by fierofetish:

He works in telecommunications.





This is bad?
*** INANE comment I already pointed out a relevant fact about this kind of technology, and its use by Terrorists*****

quote
Originally posted by fierofetish:

He travels the US and Canada widely doing his job.





Or is this the bad part?
**INANE COMMENT*** He can travel freely in the USA without raising any curiousity as to what he MIGHT be doing undercover of his work.Flipping hamburgers, a job where his absence from it would raise some kind of curiousity from his employers...just using an example to illustrate the main point..no offence to anybody who does this kind of work is implied.


quote
Originally posted by fierofetish:

He goes to Tunisia for his holiday.( A Muslim country).





Is this illegal?
***UNBELIEVABLY INANE COMMENT*****You forgot to add that he had the opportunity to make contact with Terrorist organisations that are rife there...and then he cuts short his holiday, and goes home alone..

quote
Originally posted by fierofetish:

He goes home alone, and unexpectedly..after talking to Radical Muslims on holiday.





This is from YOUR link:

"In September 2002, I was with my wife and children, and her family, vacationing in Tunis. I got an email from the MathWorks (his employer) saying that they ****might need me soon to assess a potential consulting work for one of their customers.***** I said goodbye to my wife and family, and headed back home to prepare for work."

***** NO OUTRIGHT DEMAND FOR HIM TO QUIT HIS HOLIDAY AND RETURN ALONE***** note the words 'might' , 'soon' and 'potential'..why the urgency in returning home?


quote
Originally posted by fierofetish:

He is NOT a Canadian at all. He is a Syrian, born and bred, living in Canada.He is a citizen of Canada, not a Canadian citizen.There is an enormous difference, in my opinion. To back that up, I will use my own situation to clarify that. I am not Spanish, I am British. I live in Spain.I am therefore an British subject living in Spain.I am an Englishman first, and a citizen of Spain second. I have NOT miraculously been cleansed of all my British traits and characteristics, suddenly transformed to be a Spaniard.





Maher Arar is a Canadian citizen whether YOU believe him to be or not.
*** HE IS A SYRIAN NATIONAL FIRST.. AND A CITIZEN OF CANADA SECOND*******

Your opinion differs greatly from mine. Being born in a particular country does not in any way guarantee that this person will necessarily become a good citizen of that country. It is my experience, living in a country of immigrants, that some of the BEST citizens are those who came to this country by choice.
****OF COURSE....HOW SILLY OF ME...YOU KNOW THEM ALL******

quote
Originally posted by fierofetish:

And funnily enough, you yourself have reinforced this, by your not-infrequent comments about your Irish ancestry...I guess you are relatively proud of your lineage? Otherwise I doubt you would highlight it so often QED.By your own hand.





About the only time I've ever mentioned my Irish heritage in this forum is in discussions with YOU. And that's maybe been three or four times. It is ironic that YOU would kid me about this as**** YOU have probably mentioned your ex-Brit status about a hundred times here (at least!) .*****
***RUBBISH***** I AM an immigrant..so perhaps my perspective is somewhat more enlightened than yours..

quote
Originally posted by fierofetish:

He spent 17 years, the most formative in any human life, in Syria. He is a Syrian, who has been living under the influence of Canadian society..Syrian culture remains engrained in his being.





Oh good lord. You know nothing about what's "engrained in his being".
***AND YOU DO?????????????????????????????????******
I decided to conduct an experiment last night..I asked 40 foreign Nationals, of varying nationalities ( including Russian, African.French, Dutch, British, Southern Irish, Rumanian, Mexican, and AMERICAN)....residing in Spain.NOT ONE CONSIDERED THEMSELVES TO BE SPANISH CITIZENS...NOT ONE. The nearest was one English guy, married to a Spanish lady, who said he could possibly consider himself to be half and half.That is fact, not made-up hyperbole.

quote
Originally posted by fierofetish:

Now, if he was from a Canadian family that went back generations, with no bloodlinks to a Country which everybody knows is a hotbed of anti-west dogma, then I would be very, very worried. He is not. He arrives from a foreign country, during a long period of troubled history between his future country of abode, and country of origin.





Nick, it's getting to the point where I can't stand this anymore. This is getting twisted and sick.
*******YOUR DEFINITION WHICH BEARS NO VALIDITY AT ALL*******

quote
Originally posted by fierofetish:

He doesn't work flipping hamburgers.





Why is this a bad thing? Why do you mention this? Why am I bothering with any of this?
*** IF YOU FAIL TO SEE THE VALIDITY OF THIS, FINALLY REALISE WHY I WASTE MY TIME WITH YOU.***I explained it above in this post.

quote
Originally posted by fierofetish:

He works in Electronics..a field which predominantly contributes to terrorist attacks.





Nick, this has got to be a freakin' joke. Please tell me this has all been a joke.
**** DITTO MY LAST COMMENT*******

quote
Originally posted by fierofetish:

Any problems so far?





Oh, none that I've found...

Nick, let's just forget about it. This has gone beyond silly and turned into a complete waste of time.
***SNAP..BUT MINE, NOT YOURS*******
You are TOTALLY unable to reply in a commonsense, mature fashion. You seem to think pouring your personal scorn on my views is clever. I think it is pathetic..and since I realise I will NEVER get an adult, post-adolescent suggestion about what CAN be done, then so be it. You have no vision AT ALL on debating anything sensibly, Patrick. Yes that is MY opinion, and mine alone. You will, no doubt, be relieved to hear that I won't try again.

------------------
fierofetish.PFF'S self-confessed Snowbird!!

Growing old is harder than growing up.
Responsibility: the solution for our World's Dilemmas..
Yahoo messenger:nickcannspain
MSN Messenger-nicholascann@hotmail.com

quote Originally posted by Formula88: I find this amazing. You acknowledge that he didn't know anything and that he was picked up because he happened to speak to the wrong people, yet you don't think that could ever happen to you?

Carefull of your wording here......

Let me ask you a question?

Ever had a speeding ticket where you never saw the sign?

Ignorance doesn't make you innocent.

I had already stated, we were wrong. I even stated, he should file suit.

I feel bad for the guy.

Your attacking me becuase I support or governments efforts.
Yes, torture is wrong.... and sometimes you have to do less than ethical acts when dealing with fanatics.

And who I a associate with is the entire point.... Thats how he got the bullseye paited on him right?

I am far from racist. I just don't have a lot of freinds.... read my schedule post.

No, I'm not attacking you. I'm saying I find it amazing that you acknowledge that he did nothing wrong and knew of no reason for them to suspect him, but he was picked up anyway, yet you don't think the same would happen to you.

It's like saying, walking across the street blindfolded is how he got run over, even though he didn't know there was a car coming. I don't think I'll have any problem walking across the street blindfolded, though.

And if who you associate with is the point, I guess that means guilt by association?
Do you wave or say "hi" to people in your neighborhood as you pass? Or do you studiously ignore them? He was talking with some people he recognized from his neighborhood. If that's enough to arouse suspicion - you'd better lock your door and not talk to anyone without a thorough backround check.

My "brown" people remark is not about racism. Maybe more about racial profiling. The simple fact is, if you only hang out with white people, you'll be less likely to be suspect than if you have any "brown" or Arab friends. A friend of mine happens to be Lebanese. Should I avoid him because being seen with him in public might look bad?

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 09-25-2006).]

Nick, I gotta say, your comments have absolutely floored me. However, it's painfully apparent that further discussion on this topic is pointless.

Just one item I wish to mention:

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: And Patrick, if you feel my professional calling deserves MORE snide remarks, as you posted here, and in another thread...carry on. It makes YOU look the fool.

I read that and I was wondering what the heck I had ever said in a derogatory manner about the iron/steel work that you do. Honest, that's what came to mind. I couldn't recall ever saying anything about the metal gates that you built and which you then posted images of in some past thread.

And then it hit me...

Elvis.

I can't believe it. You're upset with me because I made a joke about Elvis impersonators being used to torture terrorists??!!!

Definitely time for the two of us to have a cooling down period.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-26-2006).]

Patrick,

I actually thought about editing the post and removing the line after you mentioned it but decided it was better to leave it there and apologize for it so people would know what we were talking about. Again, I regret writing it and you have my apologies (Scott, that includes you as well, you both deserved better even though we're at different ends of the political spectrum).

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Thanks John, I very much appreciate that. As I stated to you in another thread on a totally different subject, "you're a good guy".

quote Originally posted by jstricker: I actually thought about editing the post and removing the line after you mentioned it but decided it was better to leave it there and apologize for it so people would know what we were talking about.

John, I'm glad you left it there. I hate it when "history" is re-written. One of my pet peeves in forums such as this is when people go back and delete (or radically alter) their posts because they later re-consider what they've stated. Nothing wrong with changing one's mind, but it takes a man to leave it there and to either defend it or apologize for it.

One other point I thought I'd briefly mention:

quote Originally posted by jstricker: So far all I've heard is complaining.

Sure, it can be viewed as "complaining", or it can be viewed as raising awareness. Despite some of the nonsensical rhetoric stated in this thread, I like to believe that we all benefit from discussions of this nature. There's nothing wrong with holding our leaders responsible for their actions and possibly being somewhat critical of them. Whether or not they have erred in this particular situation is perhaps secondary to the fact that we, the people, are watching...

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Patrick, I actually thought about editing the post and removing the line after you mentioned it but decided it was better to leave it there and apologize for it so people would know what we were talking about. Again, I regret writing it and you have my apologies (Scott, that includes you as well, you both deserved better even though we're at different ends of the political spectrum). John Stricker

I doubt we are as far apart as it may seem on the net. I just like standing up when I see something I consider wrong, and it happens to be that our government seems to be handling a lot of stuff really badly this last 6 years or so.

On the issue of torture, I believe that condoning it in any way shape or form is unamerican. If someone feels they need to do it due to a Jack Bauer senario, they should damn well know that there are consequences for going that route and if ANY other option is available, take it. I haven't located anything about torture being used to save a bunch of people like RED88FF said happened, I'd like a link to something related.

I think it's not needed, and like many of the of the new ideas implemented it may be reducing effectiveness of our intelligent community. Since you WILL get info with torture, you then have to go check it out regardless of it's accuracy. Since this case shows that innocent people will give you what you ask for even if they don't have it to give, the next step is that someone has to do something with that information they've obtained. It's the same problem with paying out money for info... you get lots of info, most of which turns out to be false... and you've wasted a bunch of manpower on tracking down all those bad leads.

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: On the issue of torture, I believe that condoning it in any way shape or form is unamerican. If someone feels they need to do it due to a Jack Bauer senario, they should damn well know that there are consequences for going that route and if ANY other option is available, take it. I haven't located anything about torture being used to save a bunch of people like RED88FF said happened, I'd like a link to something related.

I did not say the info was extracted by torture, It was the threat of being turned over to the Egyptians (who did a have legal claim) that changed their minds about cooperation. I have not been able to come up with a link to the story, which I am beginning to think is strange. I may have it in one of the old computers but have had no luck finding it on the web now.

And for those that followed the links from yesterday to the nuke threats. They/he (the journalist) said that the task will be carried out by both Canadian and American naturalized citizens. I am sure that in itself changes nothing about how one views this topic though.