Patrick, it is such a generality, to say ' torture our citizens..' it implies everybody!! It is a miniscule amount of 'our citizens' who get interrogated, surely? And a very miniscule percentage of those few, who actually are considered to be worthy of further interrogation? And harder interrogation? Yes, I am APPALLED at what happened to that man!! But, I wouldn't want the interrogation of others who AREN'T innocent to be prevented, because they got one wrong. What I am trying to say is, that if being a Citizen prevents you from being interrogated, then ALL the citizens who ARE connected and working with Terrorist cells would be left alone..and then the terrorists would simply brainwash, coerce and blackmail citizens into doing their dirty work..because they would be protected from interrogation BY being citizens. That is what I was trying to get at.Terrorists are like sand on the beach..they get in everywhere.Leave an inviting hole, and they would gladly fill it up. Rather like saying we are only going to profile people getting onto planes..they would then start to get on trains, or buses, or into sports stadiums..because nobody would be looking for them.
I don't believe Terrorists fly into countries to bomb them any more. They are hand-picked from residents, so there is no chance of them being screened out on arrival: they are already here!! (or there).Just take a look at the UK. I think that all the people arrested/interrogated in the last few months, are UK citizens.
Nick

quote Originally posted by Patrick: I don't recall Formula88 saying anything remotely like that. How can you possibly interpret his (and my) concerns about not wanting to torture our own citizens in secret prisons (people who haven't even been charged with anything) as "giving them (the actual terrorists) carte blanche to plot and plan their terrible atrocities, by refraining from looking for them"? Honestly Nick, that's quite a stretch.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: It is a miniscule amount of 'our citizens' who get interrogated, surely? And a very miniscule percentage of those few, who actually are considered to be worthy of further interrogation? And harder interrogation? But, I wouldn't want the interrogation of others who AREN'T innocent to be prevented, because they got one wrong. What I am trying to say is, that if being a Citizen prevents you from being interrogated... ...because they would be protected from interrogation BY being citizens. Just take a look at the UK. I think that all the people arrested/interrogated in the last few months, are UK citizens.

Nick, it's interesting that you yourself can barely even mention the word "torture" when it's torture that we are discussing here in this thread. Instead, you've conveniently used variations of the word "interrogate". How very sanitised!

Please don't try and re-direct the focus of this thread. I don't believe ANY of us are against "interrogation" of suspects. It's the torture of our own citizens, (who don't even have charges laid against them) that many of us are expressing concerns about.

Nit-picking Patrick...go and get your sledgehammer .
Interrogation, in my olde worlde book, is somewhat more stringent than an interview..interrogation in my mind brings visions of Gestapo specialists and captured spies..not a saturday-night questioning of the local drunk..

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 09-22-2006).]

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: Nit-picking Patrick...go and get your sledgehammer

Nick, your analogy is so ironic that it defies belief.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: It is the work of a common labourer with a hammer, to demolish a building..it is the work of many skilled and trained craftsmen to construct one first. Are you a labourer with a hammer, or a skilled architect? There is a World of difference

A brief definition of the word "interrogation", Patrick...from Webster's online dictionary
"There are multiple possible methods of interrogation including deception, torture, increasing suggestibility, and using mind-altering drugs."
Now, what is wrong with my choice of word, in that light? Did you fail to notice that the word is built around 'terror'?
And you STILL haven't come up with a solution, have you? Come on...positive contribution for once, instead of mocking...what is YOUR solution? Starting with something along the lines of ' I propose this idea for rooting out terrorists from amongst our Citizens...there you go..now you fill in the blank bit...
Nick
Oh, and by the way, Patrick...in the opening post of this thread, Boonie's words were
" secret prisons ' and ' interrogation methods'..

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 09-22-2006).]

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: Oh, and by the way, Patrick...in the opening post of this thread, Boonie's words were " secret prisons ' and ' interrogation methods'..

There you go again Nick, still not able to acknowledge that Boonie was discussing “torture”. From Boonie’s first post:

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: It has been said that torture is an "unrealable" tool for gathering information. This man proves that fact. ONCE AGAIN. He was tortured to the point of confessing to having trained in Afghanistan, although it has been proved he has NEVER been there. A person will tell you anything you want, to get you to stop. That DON'T make it true! And THAT'S why it DON'T WORK! You CAN NOT rely on the information you have gathered, under those conditions. Kind of makes it POINTLESS, don't it?

Nick, thanks for giving me a valid reason for quoting Boonie’s opening post in this thread and re-focusing its intent. I’ll try and respond to the rest of your post later tonight.

I'm well aware that PFF is not a breeding ground for empathy, but can nobody fathom the pure hell some people are going through?! Holy ****, just imagine it was your wife that was dragged out and shipped across the world to be 'interrogated' for 10 months..

And intlcutlass.. You never responded to my question.. You don't have anything to fear because you haven't done anything.. Once again, did you read the original link?

Interesting that you bring up the subject of "your wife". That implies you know of women that have had this done to them? Do you, or are you simply fanning the flames with hyperbole?

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: I'm well aware that PFF is not a breeding ground for empathy, but can nobody fathom the pure hell some people are going through?! Holy ****, just imagine it was your wife that was dragged out and shipped across the world to be 'interrogated' for 10 months.. And intlcutlass.. You never responded to my question.. You don't have anything to fear because you haven't done anything.. Once again, did you read the original link?

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Interesting that you bring up the subject of "your wife". That implies you know of women that have had this done to them? Do you, or are you simply fanning the flames with hyperbole? John Stricker

Maybe significant other would be a better term? Since most of the people in this discussion are male, wife is a reasonable example. The reality is it would most likely be the wives whose husbands are taken.

So, from your own perspective, consider it your wife or husband. Whichever seems more appropriate to you.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: A brief definition of the word "interrogation", Patrick...from Webster's online dictionary "There are multiple possible methods of interrogation including deception, torture, increasing suggestibility, and using mind-altering drugs."

From Wikipedia:

"Interrogation is a methodology employed during the interview of a person, referred to as a 'source', to obtain information that the source would not otherwise willingly disclose.

A typical purpose is not necessarily to force a confession, but rather to develop, playing on the source's character, sufficient rapport as to prompt the source to disclose information valuable to the interrogator.

A well-conducted interrogation will not usually involve torture, which in practice is widely acknowledged to be ineffective at producing true, accurate, correct and reliable information."

From Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

"Definition: to question formally and systematically

Etymology: Latin interrogatus, past participle of interrogare, from inter- + rogare to ask"

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: Now, what is wrong with my choice of word, in that light? Did you fail to notice that the word is built around 'terror'?

Nick, I think you failed to notice you can't suck me in with that kind of baloney.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: And you STILL haven't come up with a solution, have you? Come on...positive contribution for once, instead of mocking...what is YOUR solution? Starting with something along the lines of ' I propose this idea for rooting out terrorists from amongst our Citizens...there you go..now you fill in the blank bit...

Okay...

I propose this idea for rooting out terrorists from amongst our Citizens... Force every suspect to listen to 24 hours of non-stop Elvis impersonators.

That should crack even the most hardened terrorist.

(Nick, it's just a joke! I like Elvis. I like you!)

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-23-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Maybe significant other would be a better term? Since most of the people in this discussion are male, wife is a reasonable example. The reality is it would most likely be the wives whose husbands are taken. So, from your own perspective, consider it your wife or husband. Whichever seems more appropriate to you.

Yes, this is EXACTLY what I meant.. I even thought while typing "No point in saying significant other.. It's all men". However, I believe you were leading up to wait for a response that would allow you to say "So do you know of ANYBODY who has had this happen?".. Which is almost less ridiculous than the last post.. No, I don't.. Does that matter?

!! I seriously believe your solution would work!! Patrick, you should know by now that I don't have a problem with you poking fun!! (Or was that to cover your a$$ for other readers? )
Yep..I left all that bit out, just as you left the bit I quoted out Manipulative, aren't we?
But, you have tried to bluff your way out of giving a serious solution. And so, until then, all you say is just so much hot air!!! ( Wanna come and spend the winter? I'd save a fortune in heating )
Enough of the joking, though. Until somebody comes up with a better solution to the one being used at present, and we DO have to use something, I am resigned to the fact that there is no alternative. And I hate that, for the innocents that are caught up in the trawl net.
Nick

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Okay... I propose this idea for rooting out terrorists from amongst our Citizens... Force every suspect to listen to 24 hours of non-stop Elvis impersonators. That should crack even the most hardened terrorist. (Nick, it's just a joke! I like Elvis. I like you!)

Yes, it does matter to me and to most of the rest of the Western world, that's why there are ongoing debates about having women in combat. Not that they can't function in the role (the women) but in the case of capture and/or torture, MEN are much more willing to try to "save" a female. You know this as well as anyone whether you admit it or not.

I also don't think you chose that just on a whim, because I'm a guy or whatever. I think you phrased it purposely to get the absolute most visceral reaction. Interrogation is bad, torture worse, torturing a woman (which nearly ALWAYS implies rape) is the bottom of the low. It's inteteresting how such a big deal is made of Nick's phrasing of his words using "interrogation" instead of "torture" yet the substitution of gender is hardly given a second glance.

All that said, I don't know how I'd feel because I'm not in that ethnic group. You might as well ask me how I'd like to have been a black man in the eary 20th century south. I don't know that, either, because I'm not that man. I can't know what I don't know. And NEITHER CAN YOU!!!

The point YOU and others keep glossing over is "what is the alternative?". We can't afford to mess this up. If we do, tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, can very likely die. Our enemy has SAID this is what they want to do to us. You keep making it out how bad we are, but have WE Said anything like that? Do WE want to exterminate anyone? Do WE even WANT TO HAVE these kinds of interrogations/prisons? No, we don't. We're having an open debate about it. Are they discussing their moral responsibilities to their enemy over in the muslim cleric's councils? Ha.

So, give me the alternatives. We're not supposed to spy. We're not supposed to wiretap. We're not supposed to detain/interrogate. We're not supposed to search at airports (that's a violation of our privacy rights) What the hell are we supposed to do, wishful think the enemy to death?

Many of you live in a fantasy world.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: Yes, this is EXACTLY what I meant.. I even thought while typing "No point in saying significant other.. It's all men". However, I believe you were leading up to wait for a response that would allow you to say "So do you know of ANYBODY who has had this happen?".. Which is almost less ridiculous than the last post.. No, I don't.. Does that matter?

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: We don't like each other, so our conversations are rarely civil, never "friendly".

You fail to realize one very important fact. There is hardly a person walking the planet that I don't like.

I may not like what they say. I may not like their politcal views, I may not like the way they part their hair but eveyone in 84Bill's world has value.

Thanks for your honesty, it is greatly appriciated.

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: I'm well aware that PFF is not a breeding ground for empathy, but can nobody fathom the pure hell some people are going through?! Holy ****, just imagine it was your wife that was dragged out and shipped across the world to be 'interrogated' for 10 months..

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Interesting that you bring up the subject of "your wife". That implies you know of women that have had this done to them? Do you, or are you simply fanning the flames with hyperbole?

quote Originally posted by jstricker: I also don't think you chose that just on a whim, because I'm a guy or whatever. I think you phrased it purposely to get the absolute most visceral reaction. Interrogation is bad, torture worse, torturing a woman (which nearly ALWAYS implies rape) is the bottom of the low. It's inteteresting how such a big deal is made of Nick's phrasing of his words using "interrogation" instead of "torture" yet the substitution of gender is hardly given a second glance.

John, I don't understand why YOU are making "such a big deal" about a "wife" being mentioned in regards to empathy and torture. Why should this have been given a "second glance". I thought it was rather a good point for Johnny to bring up, considering that 99% of us reading this thread are probably men, and a high percentage of these men are probably married (or at least have girlfriends). Are you suggesting that terrorists could never be women, and therefore women could never be suspects (to be imprisoned and tortured)? Geez, once al-Qaida catches wind of this we're sunk.

By the way, substituting the word "interrogation" for "torture" is completely bogus as the two words are not synonymous... but yes, it does sound so much more civilized.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: So, give me the alternatives. We're not supposed to spy. We're not supposed to wiretap. We're not supposed to detain/interrogate. We're not supposed to search at airports (that's a violation of our privacy rights) What the hell are we supposed to do, wishful think the enemy to death? Many of you live in a fantasy world.

I can't speak for anybody else here, but I don't feel the same way about spying, wiretaping, searching at airports, detaining/interrogating as I do about TORTURE. Although I don't like any of them, I can tolerate spying, wiretapping, searching at airports, and detaining/interrogating in the war against terrorists.

However, in my own little "fantasy world" I cannot accept TORTURE being used on our own citizens who haven't even been charged with anything. That's a completely different level of injustice. It just blows me away that seemingly decent enough folk in this forum can turn a blind eye to this abomination.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-23-2006).]

Hmmm..but still no solution Patrick And what, pray, is the difference between torturing our citizens, and somebody else's citizens? Do 'our' citizens qualify for more protection than anybody else's? Is it any less barbarous to torture say, an Afghani or an Iraqi? I am SURE they get tortured as well, by our troops and 'Special Agents',over there.Is it because they live amongst us, that they couldn't possibly be plotting to blow US up? Perhaps the solution is to bang them all up in a prison somewhere until they are proved innocent or not? Oh, hang on a minute..somebody already did that, didn't they?
Personally, when the Middle-eastern members of Western Society start to protest, vociferously, against the Muslim animals who perpatrate these despicable acts against US on the streets of London, New York and all around the World, I shall start to feel a little more sympathy for them. They are cowards, or couldn't care less. Or secretly looking forward to taking us over.So why should I protest about them getting hurt, or 'roughed up'? After all, it is THEIR kinsmen who are DIRECTLY responsible for the atrocities,and consequently their interrogation by the West.Their apathetic reaction to these atrocities doesn't stir too much sympathy in me. They are pretty damned quick to protest about the Police raiding one of their compatriot's houses in East London...parading on the streets shouting loudly how unfair it is...and yet silence when another attack takes place against the West.Stranger still...the Western populations seem to be protesting far louder than the Middle East...
And their Kinsmen don't seem too perturbed at blowing up their own Folk in the same attacks..why should I be? THEY ARE CAUSING IT TO HAPPEN..

So, then, define "torture".

Lock me up with country and western music for two days and I'll confess to anything (rap music you won't get anything out of me because I'll find a way to end it all before you get back). Is that torture? Is being locked in solitary confinement torture? What IS torture? Of course, beating with a rubber hose, electric shock, etc., certainly is, but accusations of torture include being made to sit on a cold, concrete floor. I specifically brought up the other things like spying, etc., because many here believe they are a terrible violation of our rights. Now, by your own admission, you're willing to say that giving up some of those rights is OK (well, maybe not OK, but necessary), but torture is not, so there is a degree to what's OK for YOU (and ME, BTW). Aren't there also degrees of what many consider torture and how it's used? You do realize that if the people running these "secret prisons" and doing the "torture" were really the animals made out to be by the press, they would never be found out because as they finished with the "detainees" they'd just put a bullet in their head and dump them somewhere never to be found, don't you? (A practice not uncommon with our enemies, BTW)

This thinking brings us full circle to the original title of the thread which is "And Some Will STILL Say, "Well, You Knoooow, It Has To Be Done"............." So what IS it that has to be done? What is it we're talking about? This IS the whole question, you know. Where is that line that we cannot cross? I submit to you, and everyone else, that NOBODY knows. If you KNEW that there was a 9/11 immenent, and you KNEW you had a person that was privvy to all the details in your custody, WHERE IS THAT LINE? To save 3,000, 4,000, 5,000 or more lives wouldn't you agree that "IT" has to be done????? Don't you think the line that defines "IT" might get pushed further and further to the dark side?

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Patrick: I can't speak for anybody else here, but I don't feel the same way about spying, wiretaping, searching at airports, detaining/interrogating as I do about TORTURE. Although I don't like any of them, I can tolerate spying, wiretapping, searching at airports, and detaining/interrogating in the war against terrorists. However, in my own little "fantasy world" I cannot accept TORTURE being used on our own citizens who haven't even been charged with anything. That's a completely different level of injustice. It just blows me away that seemingly decent enough folk in this forum can turn a blind eye to this abomination.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: Hmmm..but still no solution Patrick

Nick, that same question/comment you keep parroting is getting rather old. Since I've already stated that I believe it's acceptable (albeit regrettably) to spy, wiretap, search at airports, and detain/interrogate in the war against terrorists, it appears that the only thing that we (the West) are doing which provides positive results in your opinion is to TORTURE. Lucky for you, none of your three dogs have any connections to the middle east.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: And what, pray, is the difference between torturing our citizens, and somebody else's citizens? Is it any less barbarous to torture say, an Afghani or an Iraqi?

Praying has little to do with any of this.

I'm responding in this thread to the story of a Canadian citizen being taken by American agents to a Syrian prison to be tortured and held for ten months while never having been charged with anything. I'm concerned about atrocities which occur to any/all innocent human beings, but more so with the citizens of my own country (and the US) as this is where my friends and family live. Nice to hear that you are so concerned about the well-being of Afghani and Iraqi citizens.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: After all, it is THEIR kinsmen who are DIRECTLY responsible for the atrocities, and consequently their interrogation by the West.

Oh sure, and I guess I should've been carted off to a Syrian prison and tortured during the heyday of the IRA because of my Irish background. What a lot of nonsense...

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-23-2006).]

quote Originally posted by jstricker: So, then, define "torture". Lock me up with country and western music for two days and I'll confess to anything (rap music you won't get anything out of me because I'll find a way to end it all before you get back). Is that torture? Is being locked in solitary confinement torture? What IS torture? Of course, beating with a rubber hose, electric shock, etc., certainly is, but accusations of torture include being made to sit on a cold, concrete floor. I specifically brought up the other things like spying, etc., because many here believe they are a terrible violation of our rights. Now, by your own admission, you're willing to say that giving up some of those rights is OK (well, maybe not OK, but necessary), but torture is not, so there is a degree to what's OK for YOU (and ME, BTW). Aren't there also degrees of what many consider torture and how it's used? You do realize that if the people running these "secret prisons" and doing the "torture" were really the animals made out to be by the press, they would never be found out because as they finished with the "detainees" they'd just put a bullet in their head and dump them somewhere never to be found, don't you? (A practice not uncommon with our enemies, BTW)

http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN142891031X&id=o-z9omZdfw8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=detainee+deaths

Check out the area around page 16.

"According to the Schlesinger Report on Abu Ghraib, there have been "five cases
of detainee deaths as a result of abuse by US personnel...""

and older story from 2005 about detainee deaths. http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/03/25/homicides-050325.html

Murders and homicides etc by our troops with Geneva conventions supposedly in place... now take away the people watching and what happens. No one is releasing data on how many people who have been 'disappeared' to a secret prison have been permanently disappeared because someone got carried away. NO oversite, no fault. When dozens have died under our watch in a prison that is admitted to, how many are dying in the ones our government is hiding? If no one knows who took you and where, you exist at the whim of whoever took you.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: This thinking brings us full circle to the original title of the thread which is "And Some Will STILL Say, "Well, You Knoooow, It Has To Be Done"............." So what IS it that has to be done? What is it we're talking about? This IS the whole question, you know. Where is that line that we cannot cross? I submit to you, and everyone else, that NOBODY knows. If you KNEW that there was a 9/11 immenent, and you KNEW you had a person that was privvy to all the details in your custody, WHERE IS THAT LINE? To save 3,000, 4,000, 5,000 or more lives wouldn't you agree that "IT" has to be done????? Don't you think the line that defines "IT" might get pushed further and further to the dark side? John Stricker

Totally... if you KNOW 100% that a person has information that is going to cost the lives of thousands/millions if you don't extract it NOW, I suspect anyone would go to any means to get it. That's the Jack Bauer senario... we aren't dealing with that, we are dealing with people being pulled out of the legal system (FBI) that can extract information legally and tossed into an illegal one because someone suspects they may know something about something somewhere maybe. Not that they are the known key to a threat that their is no other way to defuse and we are willing to stretch the rules because massive deaths are going to happen if we don't try... nope, just that maybe they know something, they've been implicated by someone of possibly having some sort of relationship with someone who might be up to something. Have you picked up the wrong person in your cab to many times? Taken out the same book from the library as a suspected bad guy? Served him at a restaurant or bar? Fixed his computer? Gone to the same temple/church/mosque/company bbq/soccer game/neighborhood block watch meetings? Donated to the wrong charity?

Is that all the justification we need to toss aside our own and international law? Jack Bauer senario... your wrong doing it and you know it, and know your going to pay a hefty price personally for doing what you feel you have to do. Other senario, end justifies the means even when it doesn't and you get government authorization... holy crap.

I'd say the President and Vice President (especially the vice president actually since he's been pushing for it for years) should be paying the price for authorizing these actions. I don't give a damn about them trying to play like they are just finding solutions etc.. they know what they are doing is illegal technically and morally, they should be paying the price for being wrong in each and every case where someone innocent is injured because of their direct orders. It's not just the soldiers following orders that should be getting punished if they follow an illegal order, it's the person giving that illegal order that should be tried and convicted.

Patrick,

First off, I think I made my point poorly since I apparently gave you the idea that I didn't think any types of coercion/torture/whatever had been used. Yes, I certainly do think that some very aggressive tactics have been used (including what you, I, or anyone else would call torture). I also think that a great deal of what the MEDIA is reporting to be torture is, well, not so much.

I, personally, do not consider being locked up in solitary confinement "torture". I don't consider that nearly as hard on ME as, for instance, sleep deprivation which a poll shows most people in the US do NOT consider to be torture. I don't consider loud noise (below a level which would cause pain) to be torture. I don't consider being naked as "torture". Humiliating, it certainly could be, but not torture.

I hope that I'm making my point. It's easy for us to sit back here and throw generalities around. There has been talk in this thread about all of the "secret prisons" (which I have no doubt exist) to make it sound like they are all over the place, dozens of them or more, filled with thousands of innocent people. The credible reports I read are more along the lines of 2 or 3 and with 30 or so detainees. LINK Do I like it that it's being done? Hell no. But if the number in the BBC report is accurate, at least it shows me that it's something we as a nation are not doing just willy-nilly and en masse.

Both you and Scott keep coming back and pointing out examples of the extreme. I honestly don't know why. We can all agree that actions that result in a death are, obviously, either torture or negligence (at best). But those are not going unnoticed or unpunished and neither of you are addressing the questions I'm putting out there.

Since you don't equate interrogation with torture, draw the line for me. Where, EXACTLY, does interrogation begin to be torture?

You guys are sitting back, judging people AFTER THE FACT. That's easy, Patrick. It's a hell of a lot harder when you have someone sitting in a chair in front of you that you THINK you KNOW has the details for the next 9/11 style attack, and that attack is immenent. In that case, the old interrogation/torture line is going to get pushed more and more towards the brutal side. If you think the same wouldn't happen to you if YOU were in charge of the interrogation, then you're kidding yourself.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Patrick: It's already happened John, it's already happened...

I just read the review of what has happened to him.Let's just list all the things that went against him, fairly or unfairly, and equally.
He came to the West, at the age of 17, from a Country which hates America and the West.
He has associates who are known Syrian terrorists. ( or so we are lead to believe..I can't prove, or disprove, that. Neither can anybody else on this Forum, or any other, for that matter, unless you have known him all his life)
He works in telecommunications.
He travels the US and Canada widely doing his job.
He goes to Tunisia for his holiday.( A Muslim country).
He goes home alone, and unexpectedly..after talking to Radical Muslims on holiday.
He is NOT a Canadian at all. He is a Syrian, born and bred, living in Canada.He is a citizen of Canada, not a Canadian citizen.There is an enormous difference, in my opinion.To back that up, I will use my own situation to clarify that. I am not Spanish, I am British. I live in Spain.I am therefore an British subject living in Spain.I am an Englishman first, and a citizen of Spain second. I have NOT miraculously been cleansed of all my British traits and characteristics, suddenly transformed to be a Spaniard.And funnily enough, you yourself have reinforced this, by your not-infrequent comments about your Irish ancestry...I guess you are relatively proud of your lineage? Otherwise I doubt you would highlight it so often QED.By your own hand.
He spent 17 years, the most formative in any human life, in Syria. He is a Syrian, who has been living under the influence of Canadian society..Syrian culture remains engrained in his being.
Now, if he was from a Canadian family that went back generations, with no bloodlinks to a Country which everybody knows is a hotbed of anti-west dogma, then I would be very, very worried.He is not. He arrives from a foreign country, during a long period of troubled history between his future country of abode, and country of origin.
He doesn't work flipping hamburgers ( no exploding hamburgers have been reported as of today
He works in Electronics..a field which predominantly contributes to terrorist attacks.
Any problems so far?

Edit to add.." No dogs were harmed during this discourse, and won't be in future Forum dialogue "

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 09-24-2006).]

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Patrick, First off, I think I... <snip> You guys are sitting back, judging people AFTER THE FACT. That's easy, Patrick. It's a hell of a lot harder when you have someone sitting in a chair in front of you that you THINK you KNOW has the details for the next 9/11 style attack, and that attack is immenent. In that case, the old interrogation/torture line is going to get pushed more and more towards the brutal side. If you think the same wouldn't happen to you if YOU were in charge of the interrogation, then you're kidding yourself. John Stricker

John, this is probably one of the best posts I've read so far in this thread (including my own, and I think pretty highly of myself ) Especially that last paragraph. Well said dude.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Scott, Your hyperbole is weakening your argument. By the tone of this post, you insinuate that "The Government" is picking people up and shipping them to Syria for torture because they checked out a book, or seved someone at a restaurant. This has not happened, AFAIK. If you have evidence to the contrary, present it now or admit that you are engaging in scare tactics yourself. Your extreme made up examples do not strengthen your point. You do, however, bring up a good point and that is, I'm a lot less concerned about what happens to a legitimate terrorist than I am in making sure that the ones having bad things happen to them ARE, indeed, terrorists. I don't know what protocol the government uses to determine this and, frankly, neither do you. John Stricker

That was my point, we don't know and that slope is extremely slippery when there is no oversite. It's even slippery when there is oversite. We don't know because they don't want anyone to know. The government doesn't want anyone to know who they have, where they are, or why they have them. Thus the only ones we know of are the ones that somehow got attention like this guy from Canada. When your arresting and wisking people away with no warrants or secret ones, with no charges and taking them out of the country to do things you know are illegal inside your own country, there is a problem... especially if your country's name is America. It flies in the face of an open society with laws and rights.

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: When your arresting and wisking people away with no warrants or secret ones, with no charges and taking them out of the country to do things you know are illegal inside your own country, there is a problem... especially if your country's name is America. It flies in the face of an open society with laws and rights.

That might be a better post..

quote Originally posted by jstricker: You guys are sitting back, judging people AFTER THE FACT. That's easy, Patrick. It's a hell of a lot harder when you have someone sitting in a chair in front of you that you THINK you KNOW has the details for the next 9/11 style attack, and that attack is immenent. In that case, the old interrogation/torture line is going to get pushed more and more towards the brutal side. If you think the same wouldn't happen to you if YOU were in charge of the interrogation, then you're kidding yourself. John Stricker

I hear variations of this analogy a lot, but there's a problem with it. It presumes you already know about an attack. You know it's immenent. You know this person has operational details about the attack. Now, after all that you feel justified in using torture because you must find out what they know.

How'd you get all that other information that makes this such a dire situation? Either you do have that intelligence already from other sources, or you're back to torturing someone because they might know something about something that might happen somewhere at some point in time in the future.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Since you don't equate interrogation with torture, draw the line for me. Where, EXACTLY, does interrogation begin to be torture?

John, do you regard the following from this CBS News Report to be torture, or is it just regular run-of-the-mill "interrogation"?

quote From the link: The next morning, Arar says a Syrian intelligence officer arrived carrying a black electrical cable, two inches thick and about two feet long. “He said, ‘Do you know what this is?’ I said, I was crying, you know, ‘Yes, I know what it is. It's a cable.’ And he said, ‘Open your right hand.’ I opened my right hand … and he beat me very strongly,” says Arar. “He said, ‘Open your left hand.’ And I opened my left hand. And he beat me on my palm, on my left palm. And then he stopped, and he asked me questions. And I said to him, ‘I have nothing to hide.’”

We can debate all day long what is or isn't torture. The fact remains that our governments must themselves feel they have something to hide to be going through the trouble of shipping these people out of the country to torture them. Doesn't it seem awfully strange to be "interrogating" our own citizens in Syria of all places? If our own governments have nothing to hide, why aren't these people being "interrogated" here in the US or Canada?

John, do you feel it's acceptable (and/or necessary) to have our own citizens sent out of the country to be "interrogated". If so, why?

And Nick, have some links ready to back up your statements. I'll be back for you later...

Oooohh..I'm already trembling in my boots..at the prospect that Patrick is going to answer some of my direct questions with some direct answers I guess I wil have to wait until Doomsday for that to happen...so I'm going to bed...
http://www.maherarar.ca/mahers%20story.php
Some, if not all , of my statements came from here..and this is HIS story.I wonder what the Government's side would contain...
Nick
I personally am sceptical about the 'other people I could hear being tortured'...how hard would it be to rig up a sound system, so he could 'hear ' this terrible torture process being conducted, to make him think he was next...which apparently he wasn't.More likely, if the torture process to others was REALLY going on, they would have taken him to watch..but maybe there was nothing to watch??
And Patrick there are far worse tortures being inflicted, daily, by Citizens on other Citizens...why are you not protesting so vehemently about them? A woman who was cut open, to steal her unborn child, and her other two children drowned..just one example.There are hundreds more.And they all supremely top the torture this man is reputed to have undegone.And more,you choose to kick up a fuss about something which was done most likely in good faith, to protect the very citizens who perpetrate these other heinous crimes.Rape, murder, child molestation, kidnpping of children, importation of women for prostitution..These are all torture, aren't they? Where is your post or thread coming out against all this torture? These victims are not going to be recompensed royally for their suffering, and yet this man probably will.
So why does he come in for all this media coverage, and a terribly injured, and then murdered woman, A MOTHER, warrants a few lines in the newspapers? I suspect this is a politically motivated elevation of its importance, to undermine public confidence in Governments.He is still alive, and relatively unharmed physically.SHE was tortured to death.
And one last point...has the flow of immigrants slowed after all these revelations? Are the Muslims who arrive every day at ports and airports put off by this event? I very much doubt it, and would like to see figures proving, or denying this point.And that would seem to imply, if true, that these people still would consider it safer to live in the West that in their homelands.Perhaps they consider that this has been blown out of all proportion...and maybe they are right...I rather think they stand more chance of getting blown up by their fellow Muslims planting bombs, than being tortured in the West.

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 09-24-2006).]

Patrick,

First question first. Yes, if the report is accurate, I consider that to be torture.

Second, by your statement you seem to say that US citizens have been sent overseas to these secret prisons. I the case of Mr. Arar, he wasn't sent to a secret prison, he was turned over to the Syrians. Second, he was not a US citizen. He has dual citizenship Syrian/Canadian, the way I understand his own website (where, BTW, you can contact him and retain him for your speaking engagements) and he was raised Syrian until his family moved to Canada when the was 17.

The US INS had him on a watch list based on several pieces of information provided to them by the Canadian Government. Here are a few of them:

He was born in Syria and raised there until 17. (Pretty formative years and at a very volatile time in the region)
He maintained Syrian citizenship along with his Canadian Citizenship. (IOW, he still maintained very close ties to his home country)
Although he lived in Canada, his travel itenerary had him coming from Tunis (where he had been vacationing) through the US THEN back to Canada. (wouldn't that travel schedule raise an eyebrow or two with you?)
When questioned about certain individuals, for one Abdullah Almalki, he said he barely knew him, yet the INS produced a copy of his lease where Almalki witnessed his signing of it. (Quite possibly an innocent mistake but wouldn't that "lapse" of memory send up warning flags to you?)

The news reports make it appear that he was detained and sent from the US and nobody knew what was happening WRT his family at any time, yet his own website says:

quote Arar continues to ask for a lawyer and phone call, and his requests are denied until October 2 when he is permitted to make a two minute telephone call to his mother-in-law in Ottawa. He tells her he is frightened and he might be deported to Syria, and asks her to get him a lawyer. On October 3 or 4, Arar is asked to fill out a form asking where he would like to be deported to. He writes that he chooses to be sent to Canada, and that he has no concerns about going there. He signs the document. On October 4 Arar receives a visit from Canadian consul Maureen Girvan. Arar shows her the document he has been given, and she notes the contents. He tells her he is frightened of being deported to Syria, and she reassures him that this will not happen. On October 5 Arar is visited by lawyer Amal Oummih. They talk for 30 minutes, and he relates his fears to her, and asks her to help. She advises him not to sign anything without her being present.

It appears he was not just scooped up and shipped off, as the media reports would have us believe. Between early October and February of the following year, he was seen by Canadian Embasssy personnell at least 6 times, so Canada was well aware of where he was, and why he was there.

My point with all this is that while I believe Mr. Arar's version of things, he was NOT plucked off the street at random because he looked middle eastern. No, I don't approve of sending him to Syria because IMO, the relationships with the individuals he was questioned about are pretty weak, but I'm not the one making that call either.

So, to directly answer your question, no I don't think it's acceptable to send US citizens off to foreign countries for questioning, interrogation, or torture. However that was not the case here. That didn't happen. While Mr. Arar is entitled to have his basic human rights protected by the US while he is IN the US, he is NOT a US citizen and is NOT entitled to every legal right that a US citizen has. That has never been the case and rightfully so.

After detention and questioning by the NYPD and INS, it was determined that he was "inadmissible to the United States under Section 235C of the Immigration and Nationality Act, because he is not a citizen of the United States; he is a native of Syria and is a citizen of Syria and Canada; he arrived in the United States on September 26, 2002 and applied for admission as a non-immigrant in transit through the United States, destined to Canada; and he is a member of an organization that has been designated by the Secretary of State as a Foreign Terrorist organization, to with Al Qaeda aka Al Qa’ida. " This is from his own website. Apparently, since Canada didn't question him there and informed the US about him, they didn't want him back. He was going to be deported. He was a citizen of Canada (who it appears wanted nothing to do with any of this) and Syria, which is where he was sent. He wasn't held in a secret, US/CIA prison in Syria, he was turned over to the Syrian government.

Look, as I said, I believe his story. He was one of those people that got caught up in all of this, but for crying out loud, it's not like this was someone picked up at random off the street either. The Canadian government informed the US about him. He was detained and questioned and had lapses of memory. What are they supposed to do, say "Oh, OK, well, if you remember this stuff later, give me a call."? I don't think so. If he HAD been a part of a cell that later set off a bomb in Times Square you'd be one of those screaming about the incompetence of the US officers.

No, I don't like it. I don't want anyone to go through that. I also don't want to see us lose another 3,000 innocent civilians of many nationalities because we couldn't see the forest for the trees. As I said, if you can come up with a better method, let's hear it. So far all I've heard is complaining.

John Stricker

Arar's Website

quote Originally posted by Patrick: John, do you regard the following from this CBS News Report to be torture, or is it just regular run-of-the-mill "interrogation"? From the link: The next morning, Arar says a Syrian intelligence officer arrived carrying a black electrical cable, two inches thick and about two feet long. “He said, ‘Do you know what this is?’ I said, I was crying, you know, ‘Yes, I know what it is. It's a cable.’ And he said, ‘Open your right hand.’ I opened my right hand … and he beat me very strongly,” says Arar. “He said, ‘Open your left hand.’ And I opened my left hand. And he beat me on my palm, on my left palm. And then he stopped, and he asked me questions. And I said to him, ‘I have nothing to hide.’” We can debate all day long what is or isn't torture. The fact remains that our governments must themselves feel they have something to hide to be going through the trouble of shipping these people out of the country to torture them. Doesn't it seem awfully strange to be "interrogating" our own citizens in Syria of all places? If our own governments have nothing to hide, why aren't these people being "interrogated" here in the US or Canada? John, do you feel it's acceptable (and/or necessary) to have our own citizens sent out of the country to be "interrogated". If so, why? And Nick, have some links ready to back up your statements. I'll be back for you later...

Edited to fix some spelling and the quote tags.

[This message has been edited by jstricker (edited 09-25-2006).]

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: I personally am sceptical about the 'other people I could hear being tortured'...how hard would it be to rig up a sound system, so he could 'hear ' this terrible torture process being conducted, to make him think he was next...which apparently he wasn't.More likely, if the torture process to others was REALLY going on, they would have taken him to watch..but maybe there was nothing to watch?? And Patrick there are far worse tortures being inflicted, daily, by Citizens on other Citizens...why are you not protesting so vehemently about them? A woman who was cut open, to steal her unborn child, and her other two children drowned..just one example.There are hundreds more.And they all supremely top the torture this man is reputed to have undegone.And more,you choose to kick up a fuss about something which was done most likely in good faith, to protect the very citizens who perpetrate these other heinous crimes.Rape, murder, child molestation, kidnpping of children, importation of women for prostitution..These are all torture, aren't they? Where is your post or thread coming out against all this torture? These victims are not going to be recompensed royally for their suffering, and yet this man probably will. So why does he come in for all this media coverage, and a terribly injured, and then murdered woman, A MOTHER, warrants a few lines in the newspapers? I suspect this is a politically motivated elevation of its importance, to undermine public confidence in Governments.He is still alive, and relatively unharmed physically.SHE was tortured to death. And one last point...has the flow of immigrants slowed after all these revelations? Are the Muslims who arrive every day at ports and airports put off by this event? I very much doubt it, and would like to see figures proving, or denying this point.And that would seem to imply, if true, that these people still would consider it safer to live in the West that in their homelands.Perhaps they consider that this has been blown out of all proportion...and maybe they are right...I rather think they stand more chance of getting blown up by their fellow Muslims planting bombs, than being tortured in the West.

Read what you just posted Nick, it wasn't a response. It was an attack on Patrick and a diversion from the topic. What does his feeling about all those other subjects have to do with this thread? A woman cuts the baby out of another womans body... relation to the US government hauling people off to be tortured? Let's see... how many woman are being murdered for their babies? Who is allowing it as governmental policy? What can we as citizens do to stop it? Speak out and hold demonstrations at the local 'we want to murder you and take your unborn child from your womb' building? There are NO politics in someone murdering an innocent mother for her child, no law that can prevent such a random act, our government isn't wisking people off to torture them to find out if they are going to commit such an act are they?

Rape, murder, child molestation, prostitution... another diversion. Has nothing to do with the subject. Want to discuss those subjects, start a new thread.. don't accuse someone of not caring because they didn't hijack the thread that far off topic. Our government isn't proposing we legalize rap, murder, child molestation... prostitution...well maybe but that's way way off topic.

Immigration by Muslims... interesting question. Also not related to if the US government should be torturing prisoners... apparently the gentleman from Canada didn't think it could happen to him and was wrong. I don't think it'll happen to me, but I bet the government could find 'cause' based my past if they really wanted to stretch. Maybe someone thinks my posting sound to much like the ranting of the next Timothy McVeigh... possibly I should be tortured to find out if I'm planning something.

Ok, your skeptical about people being tortured and the testimony of someone who was there and heard what he believed to be other people being tortured isn't good enough, it could have been psychological... mission impossible stuff. But they beat him... why would we believe they weren't doing the same or worse to others. Especially when the VP has been advocating that course for years now. When we have proof our government has done it before in other locations. Where we know prisoners have died in other prisons from related abuse. We tried to force Saddam to prove a negative, but for our government we are told to trust them even though they are acting in secret, taking people out of our country as secret prisoners to secret jails.... umm...

Robbed this link off the is Osama dead thread

Robbed this link off the is Osama dead thread. Link posted by Proff.

http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/paul-williams092306.htm

I tell you what, If I had the slightest inkling that somebody had info on this plan I would redefine the word torture/interrogation for all the world!

jstricker,
Very eloquent posting! I believe most all your points have been made already here by others but are falling on deaf ears.
I fear the time may come that the point may be made all to clear. I also see that for a few it won't matter even then! In the meantime keep up the thought provoking writing! you may yet turn a few and I for one enjoy it immensely.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/paul-williams092306.htm I tell you what, If I had the slightest inkling that somebody had info on this plan I would redefine the word torture/interrogation for all the world!

This story seems to be getting more and more coverage. Al Queda have even gone as far as to warn Muslims in the US to return back home as the terrorists don't want to injure any of their own if they carry out their plans. Some states such as Washington have even recently started to hand out free anti-radiation tablets.

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=72986

http://www.stratfor.com/products/premium/read_article.php?id=275580

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49950

http://www.shortnews.com/shownews.cfm?id=56999&CFID=20269193&CFTOKEN=54257455

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52085

quote Originally posted by loafer87gt: This story seems to be getting more and more coverage. Al Queda have even gone as far as to warn Muslims in the US to return back home as the terrorists don't want to injure any of their own if they carry out their plans. Some states such as Washington have even recently started to hand out free anti-radiation tablets.

To hell with it, strike first. If the bombs are here they are going to go off. At least these nukes are only tactical weapons so causalities should be in an acceptable range for the anti government anti interrogation crowd. The time comes when people need to shut the hell up and let the professionals handle things.

I can here it coming!

Oh but where are we going to strike? (our guys already know)

Oh, what about all those innocent people? (really aren't any)

What will we do/ what will we do? (You? nothing as usual, complain)

Can't we all just get along? (no! try history, the information is hidden in books)

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: Read what you just posted Nick, it wasn't a response. It was an attack on Patrick and a diversion from the topic. What does his feeling about all those other subjects have to do with this thread?

Scott, thanks for saving me the trouble of having to deal with that particular post. I'm glad to hear that someone else felt it was totally uncalled for, as I was rather put off when I read it myself. Perhaps Nick and I shouldn't debate serious issues anymore. It didn't go well the last time we tried this either.

However, I'll respond to Nick's previous post...

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: He came to the West, at the age of 17, from a Country which hates America and the West.

Are you suggesting EVERY person from that country "hates America and the West"? That's an awfully large brush you've got.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: He has associates who are known Syrian terrorists. ( or so we are lead to believe..I can't prove, or disprove, that. Neither can anybody else on this Forum, or any other, for that matter, unless you have known him all his life.)

Are they "terrorists" or "suspects"? Or does it matter anymore?

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: He works in telecommunications.

This is bad?

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: He travels the US and Canada widely doing his job.

Or is this the bad part?

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: He goes to Tunisia for his holiday.( A Muslim country).

Is this illegal?

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: He goes home alone, and unexpectedly..after talking to Radical Muslims on holiday.

This is from YOUR link:

"In September 2002, I was with my wife and children, and her family, vacationing in Tunis. I got an email from the MathWorks (his employer) saying that they might need me soon to assess a potential consulting work for one of their customers. I said goodbye to my wife and family, and headed back home to prepare for work."

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: He is NOT a Canadian at all. He is a Syrian, born and bred, living in Canada.He is a citizen of Canada, not a Canadian citizen.There is an enormous difference, in my opinion. To back that up, I will use my own situation to clarify that. I am not Spanish, I am British. I live in Spain.I am therefore an British subject living in Spain.I am an Englishman first, and a citizen of Spain second. I have NOT miraculously been cleansed of all my British traits and characteristics, suddenly transformed to be a Spaniard.

Maher Arar is a Canadian citizen whether YOU believe him to be or not.

Your opinion differs greatly from mine. Being born in a particular country does not in any way guarantee that this person will necessarily become a good citizen of that country. It is my experience, living in a country of immigrants, that some of the BEST citizens are those who came to this country by choice.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: And funnily enough, you yourself have reinforced this, by your not-infrequent comments about your Irish ancestry...I guess you are relatively proud of your lineage? Otherwise I doubt you would highlight it so often QED.By your own hand.

About the only time I've ever mentioned my Irish heritage in this forum is in discussions with YOU. And that's maybe been three or four times. It is ironic that YOU would kid me about this as YOU have probably mentioned your ex-Brit status about a hundred times here (at least!) .

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: He spent 17 years, the most formative in any human life, in Syria. He is a Syrian, who has been living under the influence of Canadian society..Syrian culture remains engrained in his being.

Oh good lord. You know nothing about what's "engrained in his being".

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: Now, if he was from a Canadian family that went back generations, with no bloodlinks to a Country which everybody knows is a hotbed of anti-west dogma, then I would be very, very worried. He is not. He arrives from a foreign country, during a long period of troubled history between his future country of abode, and country of origin.

Nick, it's getting to the point where I can't stand this anymore. This is getting twisted and sick.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: He doesn't work flipping hamburgers.

Why is this a bad thing? Why do you mention this? Why am I bothering with any of this?

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: He works in Electronics..a field which predominantly contributes to terrorist attacks.

Nick, this has got to be a freakin' joke. Please tell me this has all been a joke.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: Any problems so far?

Oh, none that I've found...

Nick, let's just forget about it. This has gone beyond silly and turned into a complete waste of time.

Patrick you are full of WAFFLE. NOT ONE ANSWER, only riposte.I started reading the absolute TRIPE you came back with..and after three words, gave up.
You are right...don't discuss serious things with me.I prefer to remain friends.Beginning to wonder why.
<Oh..and if these things count, and they do with me, I am not alone.Around 10 plusses...whereas yours seem to go further into the red. Never mind....
And Scott-Wa..I did not attack Patrick at all. I just consider he has tunnel vision..and it is his tunnel.But.... he has posted some snide comments about my affection for my dogs, and animals in general...even after somebody else who has a fine reputation here informed him in no certain terms that he found his comments to be offensive.I chose to ignore them. I won't bother linking to them.And Patrick, if you feel my professional calling deserves MORE snide remarks, as you posted here, and in another thread...carry on. It makes YOU look the fool. I have NEVER become personal with you, and find it below me. The means used to perpetrate ANY act of violence against another is irelevant to me..just the final outcome. Somebody gets hurt unneccesarily, or dies, as a result of an act by another Human hand merits the same sort of coverage as each other. Pain and death are the same, no matter WHO or WHAT suffers it.There is very little balance shown nowadays..only something 'new' or 'different' (government torture as opposed to the usual murder, rape, etc.) Neither is acceptable, and BOTH demand discussion, IMHO. And here.
Finally, JStricker chose to almost paraphrase a great deal of my comments. When somebody of HIS calibre decides to call me out, then I WILL start to worry. And despite John and I having a good friendship, I FULLY expect him to give me Hell if He disagrees with me. Until then...
I am SICK TO DEATH of all the negative comments made about our Western Governments, and all the inane cherry-picking of the bad, or ill-considered things they do, by OURSELVES. I wish more of their detractors would start to realise how good they are, in comparison to the others on the other side of the World. I can just see the Terrorists sniggering with delight at all the verbal attacks some Western citizens heap on our Administrations...they do more to undermine our democracy than any terrorist propaganda.
And should you find it worthwhile, just Google up the Islamic bastaro who blew up innocent lives in the UK last year...he and this other guy certainly seem to have parallel lives in many ways.Good jobs, families, respected CITIZENS..and a schoolteacher to boot.A SCHOOLTEACHER blowing up innocent people!! I hope he ROTS IN HELL. Perhaps if the kid gloves had been removed, some information about this scumbag and his associates would have come to light, and the carnage avoided.
If you truly believe that there are NO such citizens in your lands, then you are living in cloud cuckooland.I pray that you , and anybody else, doesn't suffer a very rude awakening in the future...but the odds are shortening every second.Just don't make an extremely difficult job totally impossible.

------------------
fierofetish.PFF'S self-confessed Snowbird!!

Growing old is harder than growing up.
Responsibility: the solution for our World's Dilemmas..
Yahoo messenger:nickcannspain
MSN Messenger-nicholascann@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 09-25-2006).]

Patrick,

Actually, you are very much correct. That line had no business in the discussion and I regret putting it in and apologize for it. You and Scott are not two of what I consider to be the "anti-government" crowd at all, you're asking legitimate, serious questions about tactics and policies. So am I. We're just coming to different conclusions, but a denigrating line such as what I had in the post was uncalled for.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Patrick: John, although there were a couple of points I disagreed with, most of your post was well written. However, I was disappointed you felt the need to add the following comment towards the end of your post: Considering that you and I were discussing this topic in a respectful manner, that seems like a rather unnecessary cheap shot. I don't mind exchanging points of view, but I don't particularly like someone else telling me what I would or wouldn't be "screaming" about. It's late, I think I've had enough today...

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: And intlcutlass.. You never responded to my question.. You don't have anything to fear because you haven't done anything.. Once again, did you read the original link?

Look we can play these chicken or the egg games all day.

He was suspect for a reason.

That reason was, he had a conversation with suspected terrorists, wether he knew they were or not.

WHAT IF he did have knowledge with reguards to terroist activities?

I know he was innocent, I know he was TORTURED. I doubt he was suspect on his good looks alone. He had crosshairs on him becuase of his relationship with terrorists. I am aware he didn't know anything.

It's unfortunate, just like I said. But I fully support our governments activities to track down terrorist. If you are attemting to point me out, and show I am some sorta pr1ck or something, I would agree with you. I would always side on too harsh, than not harsh enough and potentially letting something slide through the cracks.

Do I feel safe that I will never be held for torture?
Yep, I am pretty sure I will never be detained. But you can call the Fed's if you like? Tell them I said Hi....


Does that awnser your question?