quote Originally posted by Red88FF: They (foreigners) may have some kind of rights if apprehended on US soil, but I don't think they should.

Sure, why complicate things? Makes it easier to send more innocent Canadians to Syrian prisons to be tortured...

You make it sound like the US has it out for Canadians... It doesn't matter what nationality the individual is.. the crux of the problem is the fact that a PERSON was denied rights.

Being Canadian has nothing to do with it. The guy could have been Russian for all I care.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Sure, why complicate things? Makes it easier to send more innocent PEOPE to Syrian prisons to be tortured...

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: That is for the United states not everyone in the world, that is from OUR constitution. They (foreigners) may have some kind of rights if apprehended on US soil, but I don't think they should.

You are correct. But I'm also concerned with how the laws are applied to U.S. citizens. I don't believe becasue a person isn't a U.S. Citizen that they are automatically a 2nd class human devoid of basic human rights. Certainly Constitutional protection may be different, but basic human rights are not.

American citizens have been held for years at Gitmo with no charges. José Padilla is an American citizen of Puerto Rican descent who was accused of being a terrorist by the U.S. Government. He was arrested in Chicago on May 8, 2002, and remains in detention in a military prison. For the first three years of his detention he was held without charge; he is now charged with "conspiracy to murder, kidnap, and maim people overseas." The U.S. administration has in the past described him as an illegal enemy combatant, arguing that he was thereby not entitled to the normal protection of US law, nor protection under the Geneva Convention.

An American citizen held 3 years without charge. Still being held, AFAIK, without a trial.

Also see: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/043405.html for similar concerns with regards to American citizens' rights.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 09-20-2006).]

While Mr. Arar IS NOT a U.S. Citizen, he was a guest.

As a GUEST he is to be granted all the "protections" under the United States Constitution as if he were a naturalized Citizen.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: You make it sound like the US has it out for Canadians...

Not at all. However, Maher Arar is a Canadian as am I... therefore my reference to Canadians.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: It doesn't matter what nationality the individual is.. the crux of the problem is the fact that a PERSON was denied rights.

Of course.

[EDIT] By the way Bill, changing the words in a quote attributed to me probably helps to confuse the issue for anyone else reading your post.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-20-2006).]

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: While Mr. Arar IS NOT a U.S. Citizen, he was a guest. As a GUEST he is to be granted all the "protections" under the United States Constitution as if he were a naturalized Citizen.

This is very correct.. As it should be. And not even for 'terror' suspects (computer consultant) of course. You'd think I'd go visit America if I wasn't granted the same rights as an American while I was down there? Foreigners shouldn't be granted rights? (Not directed to bill).

Well.. If you did you'd probaly get punched in the face.

However, I wouldn't stand idle and let it happen to you Johnny.

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: You'd think I'd go visit America if I wasn't granted the same rights as an American while I was down there?

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: I see you ignored my last post and instead are trying to diflect the truth. You say "I have nothing to hide."

No, What I say is "Unless yopu have a warrant, its none of your damn business. Even IF you have a warrent--ALL rights reserved, and that MEANS all.


THEY are in charge?????...........In thier warped little fascist minds maybee. A slight chance in the mens room with thier tallywacker in thier hand. Apart from that they dont really controll squat that cant be circumvented with little to no effort. And if it can be circumvented, then it isnt controll, just an illusion.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: And just who the hell made the mistake here? Maybe you guys should take a little more care in those investigations! Man o man you guys screwed that one up! And I bet your government is and was fully aware of what was going to happen next!

The RCMP certainly screwed up here. No argument with that. They had no evidence to support any terrorist connections. Did the RCMP know in advance that American agents would take this Canadian citizen to Syria to have him tortured? The inquiry said they didn't, but apparently you know otherwise.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: By the way I still have to say I think the timing is suspect, 2 1/2 years and now it's a big deal (not that it is not) but hey, a big stink right before November?

Are you suggesting the finalization date of this Canadian inquiry has been timed to have some kind of an impact on American elections? Good lord...

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: ...why are you focusing on my government! mow your own lawn first then complain about mine.

Let's get this straight - A Canadian citizen guilty of NOTHING is travelling in the States and is pirated away by American agents to Syria to be tortured and I (as a fellow Canadian) should have nothing to say on the matter? Yeah, don't you wish.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: Than what the hell do you care!

How are YOU in a position to know what I care or don't care about? Simply put - you aren't.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: May seem kinda weird but I think those rights should only be extended to those that have those beliefs.

As ignorant as some of your previous comments have been, this one takes the cake. Who the heck are you to suggest that Maher Arar does not believe in human rights? You're correct about one thing though, your comment does seem "kinda weird" (to say the least).

quote Originally posted by under8ted: No, What I say is "Unless yopu have a warrant, its none of your damn business. Even IF you have a warrent--ALL rights reserved, and that MEANS all.

I like your attitude with respect to that.

quote THEY are in charge?????...........In thier warped little fascist minds maybee.

And their faschist minds run this country. Your awareness is accute but don't underestimate their ability to be like AT&T.. you know.... reach out to touch someone. They can and they do.

So until such time the people are "back" in control, they and their faschist little minds will be.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: The RCMP certainly screwed up here. No argument with that. They had no evidence to support any terrorist connections. Did the RCMP know in advance that American agents would take this Canadian citizen to Syria to have him tortured? The inquiry said they didn't, but apparently you know otherwise.

Excuse the Fuuck out of me for assuming that your government Intelligence agency was the least bit aware of what is going on in the world, this interrogation exporting has been going on for years! and for them to deny it is typical and pathetic!

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Are you suggesting the finalization date of this Canadian inquiry has been timed to have some kind of an impact on American elections? Good lord...

Wake up dude! Like no one knew he was gone before now! sheeesh! And then they/you guys managed to keep the investigation secret all this time.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Let's get this straight - A Canadian citizen guilty of NOTHING is travelling in the States and is pirated away by American agents to Syria to be tortured and I (as a fellow Canadian) should have nothing to say on the matter? Yeah, don't you wish.

My statement stands, you guys are really to blame! You guys passed on the bad info! Our guys were stupid enough to think your guys could do their job! bet that won't happen again.


Me "Than what the hell do you care!"

quote Originally posted by Patrick: How are YOU in a position to know what I care or don't care about? Simply put - you aren't.

You wrote that we had already lost! All I know about you is what you tell us. I also think maybe you waited so long to respond because you figured what I wrote would conveniently be lost a page or two back

What I wrote originally:
Than what the hell do you care! I agree in principal with what you are saying, really. But I do not think we will lose nor are losing unless we end up with our hands tied. What people in this thread are not hearing or refuse to hear is that we do not like the idea of torture, we do not think it is fun and cool nor applaud it, it is not a way of life for us, unlike the enemy we face. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE! A man MUST be prepared and have the courage to do what needs to be done when the time comes

Me again "May seem kinda weird but I think those rights should only be extended to those that have those beliefs."

quote Originally posted by Patrick: As ignorant as some of your previous comments have been, this one takes the cake. Who the heck are you to suggest that Maher Arar does not believe in human rights? You're correct about one thing though, your comment does seem "kinda weird" (to say the least).

Look here cookie, You have taken a small piece of the conversation and made a transparent effort to get others to view it out of context. This thread has gone far beyond your hero and his unfortunate experience (caused by your guys) I made that comment in regards to the war on terrorists in general, Known for a fact terrorists. I ask you again! did you watch the beheading video!. DID YOU WATCH THE TWIN TOWERS FALL? THAT IS WHAT WE ARE UP AGAINST. I suppose you would get on your high horse and protect those bastards too! oooohhh ahhhhh the panty waist legend in your own mind better than everyone else just because you thinks so liberal pinko fag pacifist attitude rears it's unworthy head again!

For those of you who have actually been following this thread and those that maybe have not read all the postings. I have written this several times in ending.

I DO understand your stance on this though, I just do not agree with it.

(and again)
My ending line was "I DO understand your stance on this though, I just do not agree with it." Not sure why that is not enough to end this.

(and again)
Let's come to grips with the fact that you are not going to convince me, nor I you and just leave it at that.
(and a few more)
Everyone clear on this NOW!

The only thing that has changed is I DO NOT RESPECT YOUR ONION AND I DO NOT RESPECT YOU. I have drawn the conclusion that you live for this crap, will never let anything go and are nothing more than an internet weirdo and do not warrant any further attention or effort.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: Excuse the Fuuck out of me for assuming that your government Intelligence agency was the least bit aware of what is going on in the world, this interrogation exporting has been going on for years! and for them to deny it is typical and pathetic!

While it's typical for governments to "forget" certin things and it is indeed "pathetic" the simple fact is OUR government shipped him off to a CONCENTRATION camp for tourture.

Regardless of the Canadian governments accusations of the man. THIS PATHETIC GOVERNMENT violated his rights.

quote Wake up dude! Like no one knew he was gone before now! sheeesh! And then they/you guys managed to keep the investigation secret all this time.

Yes, his wife knew... She knew he entered JFK but never left. The buck stopped there.

quote My statement stands, you guys are really to blame! You guys passed on the bad info! Our guys were stupid enough to think your guys could do their job! bet that won't happen again.

All the more reason to put the US government on notice that this activity will not be tolorated. But many are too narrowminded and filled with hate to even consider it.

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: I've put my life on the line plenty of times for others, this isn't even related. Our legal system as you pointed out is flawed and still makes mistakes... and you want to sidestep the safeguards we do have in place? Take away the checks and balances of an open society, allow secret prisons, torture, etc because we MIGHT be safer... unless we are the ones sucked into that system. Once you head down that slope there isn't any coming back... if a government is allowed to disappear people, people are going to disappear. This is everything we hated about the Soviet Union, now we are emulating them? I'm laying it on the line for you right now... I don't want to see you or any other person secretted away, imprisoned with no charges, no counsel, no rights, being tortured and possibly killed. Stating that in this day and age might get me on one of those lists, just standing up for yourself and others had that effect in the McCarthy era. This is the government doing things they know aren't legal, and then telling us when they get caught that they aren't breaking the law, they are trying innovative solutions and the supreme court can kiss their asses. Get caught and then ask permission for what Congress forbid doing, what the Supreme Court forbid..

Your first two paragraphs are really quite on the money, I know this and do not feel great about it, As I have stated I have done some heavy personal thought on this subject because it does go against most of what I have believed in the past.
There was an article in the NY times many years ago after the fall of the soviet union and the previously classified information started flowing out of the SU titled "McCarthy was right" Among the documents were lists of commy spies and infiltrators, their posts were deep in Hollywood and even in our congress and senate! definitely an interesting read if it can still be found. Thought you might find that interesting,,,,,I did.

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: What do we owe this Canadian for destroying his life? This goes a bit beyond going to prison after a trial and then getting released because new evidence proves your innocent. We are starting with guilty until confession and we WILL get that confession. When we are wrong who/what do we owe? How do we heal those wounds? Oh yeah, multiply that by dozens or hundreds of Iraqi civilians getting similar treatment each day, when we have squads busting into homes looking for people that the troops can't ID because they don't speak the language... so haul em all in. Lock em up until we figure out how bad we screwed up and if they are still alive just let em go... no apology, no compensation.

We owe him nothing, we acted on HIS governments call! In our system we call that malicious prosecution, the accusing party is culpable and therefore liable and candidate for jail with monetary compensation for the acused.

Iraqi civilians are in a war zone. I feel for them and hope they can get their sh1t together soon so we can leave.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: oooohhh ahhhhh the panty waist legend in your own mind better than everyone else just because you thinks so liberal pinko fag pacifist attitude rears it's unworthy head again!

Thanks for the enlightening post.

I was going to respond to your various delusional comments, but then I thought, why waste any more of my time on you?

PS. Please don't delete any of your last post to me. It's a classic.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-21-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Thanks for the enlightening post. I was going to respond to your various delusional comments, but then I thought, why waste any more of my time on you? PS. Please don't delete any of your last post to me. It's a classic.

Just can't help yourself, and did it again! heh
The whole paragraph was

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: Look here cookie, You have taken a small piece of the conversation and made a transparent effort to get others to view it out of context. This thread has gone far beyond your hero and his unfortunate experience (caused by your guys) I made that comment in regards to the war on terrorists in general, Known for a fact terrorists. I ask you again! did you watch the beheading video!. DID YOU WATCH THE TWIN TOWERS FALL? THAT IS WHAT WE ARE UP AGAINST. I suppose you would get on your high horse and protect those bastards too! oooohhh ahhhhh the panty waist legend in your own mind better than everyone else just because you thinks so liberal pinko fag pacifist attitude rears it's unworthy head again!

He edited it with only the,,, below and the rest deleted

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: oooohhh ahhhhh the panty waist legend in your own mind better than everyone else just because you thinks so liberal pinko fag pacifist attitude rears it's unworthy head again!

Case closed.

[This message has been edited by Red88FF (edited 09-21-2006).]

???

quote Originally posted by Formula88: You make it sound like such a hardship. Such a sacrifice. Would working in the Peace Core qualify as a sacrifice? How about the AmeriCorp*NCCC? You know, volunteer jobs that people to solely to help others - without pay, without benefits. Or does only military service count, since that's what you did? <snip> I'm a little alarmed that you think it's alright to "bend" the Constitution.

Do any of those people put themselves in harms way, risking life and limb to protect peolpe they don't even know?

And if you don't think the Constitution hasn't been bent all to hell already, you aren't paying attention.

It's obvious no one is going to change anyone else's mind around here, so why bother. Things are the way they are, and like it or not, I'm OK with that. Trust me, if you were holding information about someone I loved, and I needed to shoot off your kneecaps to get it, you'd be in a wheelchair for the rest of your life, and I wouldn't give it a second thought. And if I harm someone "innocent" in the process, then I would have to live with that. But I would do [i]whatever[\i] it takes to protect someone I love. And if you wouldn't do the same, then that's your choice, and you can live with that.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: And if you don't think the Constitution hasn't been bent all to hell already, you aren't paying attention.

I do think the Constitution has been bent all to hell already. We agree on that.

Where we differ is, I think that's the problem. You think it's the solution.

I respect your military service, as I respect all who choose to serve. I don't think that entitles you to more rights than any other citizen, however, and to suggest someone must "sacrifice" in the same manner as you to have a valid opinion flies in the face of the freedoms you worked to protect.

My father was drafted to go to France in WWII right out of High School. 1943. He served in France, Africa, and the Middle East and did three tours of combat duty. Upon discharge and return home, he got no parade, no ceremony. Just his mother meeting him at the train station. His opinion of that? The U.S. owed him nothing. He was called and he was glad to due his duty and expected nothing in return. Later, he was drafted again for service during the Korean conflict, and again he did his duty without feeling it entitled him to anything. He didn't feel it made him any better than anyone else and it didn't entitle him to any consideration over someone else.

The military can be a great choice, whether you do it for a career or not. But for most - those who never serve in combat - it's a job. Sure, there are hazards to the job even in peacetime, but there are hazardous civilian jobs as well.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: I suppose you also wouldn't give it a second thought if you shot my kneecaps off and then realized I didn't have the information you needed. How would torturing or maiming an innocent person protect anyone? Flip that scenario around. How about if I need information from a loved one of yours? So, I take them without your knowledge, to a secret place and torture them to get the information. I decide I need to shoot off their kneecaps to get the information required, except afterwards I find out it was a case of mistaken identity and return your loved one to you in a wheelchair after months of torture. Ooops, my bad. Would you look at this beaten, maimed person that you love and tell them, too bad, whatever it takes to keep us safe. Or would you be screaming for blood and revenge and want someone held accountable for the violation of her rights and punished for the harm they caused?

With regard to your first post; I think you took my question about those who have served vs. those who haven't in a way I wasn't implying: I was merely curious as to who of those who are opposed have actually served, and who hasn't. Mostly because I think there is a definite difference in mindset between those who join the miltary, and those who don't. I never ever ever made any suggestion that anyone who hadn't served had no rights to their opinion, as you tried to assert.

And with regard to the quoted question above: first, I can only reiterate what i said earlier: acceptance of a situation does NOT imply agreement with, endoresment of, or even *approval of* a thing. To me, it only suggests that I ACCEPT it as it is.
I actually answered a couple of your questions in the post you're questioning me about. I already said; if I injured an innocent person in my efforts to save my loved one, than that is something I have to live with. Just because I feel the way I do doesn't mean I don't have a conscience, it only means I'm willing to do things others may not in order to accomplish an important task. It would haunt me for the rest of my life to know I harmed someone unnecessarily. It would haunt me more to know that I didn't do everything in my power to keep someone I love from harm. If the roles were reveresed, damn skippy I'd be pissed. I can't even tell you how I would respond. That in and of itself does NOT suggest that I wouldn't understand and respect what you were trying to do.

[This message has been edited by Taijiguy (edited 09-21-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: With regard to your first post; I think you took my question about those who have served vs. those who haven't in a way I wasn't implying: I was merely curious as to who of those who are opposed have actually served, and who hasn't. Mostly because I think there is a definite difference in mindset between those who join the miltary, and those who don't. I never ever ever made any suggestion that anyone who hadn't served had no rights to their opinion, as you tried to assert.

Point taken. That's the way it initally read. Sorry if I read more into than you intended.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: I already said; if I injured an innocent person in my efforts to save my loved one, than that is something I have to live with.

The person you tortured also has to live with it. Never forget that.

It's admirable that you have a willingness to do "whatever it takes" to stay safe. I just hope you never make a mistake. As the events posted at the beginning of this thread can attest, mistakes can be made. Innocent people shouldn't have to suffer for your mistakes. You might be able to sleep well at night, but what about them? Don't they have a right to be able to sleep well at night, too?

I don't think you can protect and defend the Constitution by destroying it.
Likewise, I don't think you can protect people and their rights by violating their rights and torturing them.

I know we don't agree on this, and believe me I am NOT soft on terrorists. I'm just alarmed and appalled that in our rush to catch and punish terrorists, we're doing more harm than good in many cases.

You say "whatever it takes" to be safe. I submit that you will NEVER be safe. You should know that. Terrorists WILL strike us again, on U.S. soil. It's not a matter of IF, but WHEN. To be safe, we have to detect and stop 100% of all terrorist plots. All of them. For the terrorists to attack us, they only need one guy to get through with a bomb. And they can try as often as they like.

I think you are at higher risk of being detained and possibly tortured by your own government than you are being injured or killed by a terrorist attack. I agree we must be vigilent and we must do what we can to protect ourselves. I'm just not willing to trade freedom for the illusion of security. Because even if you are willing and that's made you safe, you're no longer free - so what's the point?

Would you fight for freedom?
Would you fight for your safety?

If you could only have one or the other, which would it be?

I'd fight for freedom in a heartbeat. Being safe would require locking yourself in a closet never coming out for air. "Safe" is an illusion, even if you might be "safe" from terrorists, you could die or be maimed by any of a million other ways. There haven't been any terrorist attacks on our soil since 9-11, yet every day, hundreds of people have died from one thing or another, so exactly what *IS* beign "safe"?
"Freedom" is something we've been brainwashed to believe we have. We'll never be truly free, not in this lifetime. But if I were to take up arms (again) it would be to hopefully regain some (or all) of the freedomes we've been stripped of over the course of governmental history.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: I'd fight for freedom in a heartbeat. Being safe would require locking yourself in a closet never coming out for air. "Safe" is an illusion, even if you might be "safe" from terrorists, you could die or be maimed by any of a million other ways. There haven't been any terrorist attacks on our soil since 9-11, yet every day, hundreds of people have died from one thing or another, so exactly what *IS* beign "safe"? "Freedom" is something we've been brainwashed to believe we have. We'll never be truly free, not in this lifetime. But if I were to take up arms (again) it would be to hopefully regain some (or all) of the freedomes we've been stripped of over the course of governmental history.

I agree completely.

You were willing to sacrifice your safety to serve in the military to protect freedom.
That's why I find it unsettling that you're willing to violate someone else's rights and take away their freedom to protect your safety.

I want to be as safe as possible, but I'm not willing to live in a police state to get it.

You make it sound as if I (or anyone) are willing to *knowingly* violate someone else's rights to accomplish a particular goal. That's not what I said I would do, nor is it what happened to the guy that this thread is about. I believe in ANY situation where you have to use force, be it "law"-enforcement, enforcement of public policy, or the acquisition of information, there will *always* be "innocent" people who are accused, aprehended, or even convicted. There are going to be flaws in ANY system. Should there have been more accountability or investigation done prior to the interrogation of this guy? Perhaps, although, we may NEVER know exactly how much was done prior to his aprehension and interrogation. Let's face it, it's not sensational if the guy was involved in things that legitimately made him suspect. I wonder if the newspapers would actually report that? Papers don't report on a house that's not on fire.

[This message has been edited by Taijiguy (edited 09-21-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Formula88: I find it unsettling that you're willing to violate someone else's rights and take away their freedom to protect your safety. I want to be as safe as possible, but I'm not willing to live in a police state to get it.

Formula88, you and I have disagreed on other topics in the past, but we certainly agree 100% on this one.

It's interesting how many times it's been suggested in this thread that those of us who don't condone the imprisonment and torture of INNOCENT people are somehow "soft" on terrorists. I don't see the connection.

I believe convicted terrorists should be executed. How is that being "soft" on terrorists?

Suspected terrorists are a whole different story. Why? Because any one of us could be accused of being a terrorist.

I'll be damned if I agree to a system where I can be picked up and tortured at the whim of some government flunky who has a quota to fill.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Why wouldn't that be reported? Or is this part of the commie, pinko, left-wing conspiracy? I get the impression that no matter how innocent this man was, there are those of you who will continue to believe that he MUST be guilty of something (therefore the imprisonment and torture was justified and acceptable). I suppose that helps to make the whole situation a lot more palatable for you.

What? You think it's impossible that there may have been something that actually made him suspect and that the papers wouldn't necessarily report that part? And why would it be any more of left-wing conspiracy than whisking someone off to a remote location to be tortured with no real cause?

And are you accusing me of thinking he did anything? I never said he did or didn't do anything. I have no idea and don't (nor have I) claimed to know any of the actual facts involving this situation. And anyone who just blindly belives what the papers or "news" sources reports as fact is being completely naive. I would however, be much more inclined to believe that the government must have had some evidence that he was suspicious, than I would that they just arbitrarily scooped up and tortured some poor SOB because they felt like it.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: I would however, be much more inclined to believe that the government must have had some evidence that he was suspicious, than I would that they just arbitrarily scooped up and tortured some poor SOB because they felt like it.

From Boonie's link in his first post:

quote Canadian police opened a file on Arar after seeing him talking to two other Muslim Canadians they were watching...

So... Arar was a suspected terrorist because he was seen talking to two other Muslim Canadians who were being watched. Keep in mind that nothing has come forward about these other two men being guilty of anything. Good gawd, any one of us could be suspected terrorists for simply talking to the proprietors of our local 7/11 stores.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: And are you accusing me of thinking he did anything?

What's the problem? I have as much evidence of that as both our governments had of Arar being a terrorist.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: ... there will *always* be "innocent" people who are accused...

So sorry. At least you weren't tortured and locked up in a coffin-sized dungeon for ten months.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: You make it sound as if I (or anyone) are willing to *knowingly* violate someone else's rights to accomplish a particular goal. That's not what I said I would do, nor is it what happened to the guy that this thread is about. I believe in ANY situation where you have to use force, be it "law"-enforcement, enforcement of public policy, or the acquisition of information, there will *always* be "innocent" people who are accused, aprehended, or even convicted. There are going to be flaws in ANY system. Should there have been more accountability or investigation done prior to the interrogation of this guy? Perhaps, although, we may NEVER know exactly how much was done prior to his aprehension and interrogation. Let's face it, it's not sensational if the guy was involved in things that legitimately made him suspect. I wonder if the newspapers would actually report that? Papers don't report on a house that's not on fire.

Well, what do we know?
We know he was detained.
We know he was interrogated.
We know he was held for a period of time and then released.
We know there have been no public charges filed against him.

If he'd done something wrong, he would have been charged or he would still be in custody.

So, we know that interrogation techniques, possibly involving torture, were used and that no evidence of wrongdoing has been found.

Therefore, it's reasonable to assume the investigation techniques either don't work, or he is innocent.
If he's innocent, his rights were violated. (and probably if he's guilty, too)
If he's guilty of something, the interrogation didn't work, so torture did not work.

I find it hard to build a case in favor of these tactics based on the available facts.

I am going to leave this thread with this:

I have access to the opinions of around 300 people a night at work.
Roughly 99% of the people I talked to about U.S. secret prisons in other countries & torture thinks it's O.K.
"They are the enemy and anything goes."
"If innocent people get caught-up in that system, it's the price we must pay for freedom."
"We must support our commander-in-chief, our troops & thier methods, if we are to win this thing and remain safe."
"Look what they did/do to us. They are evil and deserve everything we do to them"

My co-workers, my friends, my family, EVEN my OWN Wife, the most kindest, biggest-hearted Woman you would ever have the privlage of knowing, want's them all dead, tit-for-tat, slowly tortured for the sake extended pain, beheaded, burned, with thier ashes stuffed into the mouths of the children who are being brought up by those very parents to be terrorists.

And I understand exactly why they feel that way.
They are hurt, scared, angry, vengefull, and shocked & disgusted at the barbarity of these religous fanatics.
They want them gone.

But.................

I have to tell you the truth.
I feel smarter then all of them.
Becouse I also know all those feelings.
And it seems I'm the only one that knows that they are reactionary and unexamined.
They are the thinking process of a child.
"I got hurt, I hurt back!"
Most of the people never leave that level of thinking.
It's simple, it's quick, it feels good, it's in alignment with the majority, and it doesn't require the long & painfull process of examining all the confusing threads that make up the fabric of "The Big Picture".
I don't enjoy it anymore then anyone else.
But I do it, dispite the fact that it makes me a pariah, a dissident, and basicly unamerican.
"If you're not with us, you're againest us!"

But I do it.
I do the "big thinking", dispite all that.
I put my feelings of disgust & revenge aside.
Becouse I believe in this country and it's people.
I believe in our Constitution.
I believe in the Rule Of Law.
And I believe in Human Rights.
I believe we should be a beacon to all others of how "good guys" opperate.

I don't believe we should be the kind of people & country that institutes secret prisons in foreign countries, simply for the fact that we don't want to get our hands dirty, and we know they condone & practice torture.

If we, as a people and a country, think it is O.K. & necessary to sink to the level of torture for the sake of gathering information, we should atleast have the balls to do it ourselves, on our own land, with full knowlage to the people, and the World.

"Yes, these methods are ugly, and they are undesireable to any good peoples, but at this time they are very necessary to the safety and security of this country and it's peoples, as well as those of the World."

If we are right in what we are doing and our methods, we have nothing to hide.
I still would not agree with it, but I would respect that truth as atleast honorable.

People only hide what they're doing becouse they are ashamed, or afraid of getting in trouble.
That should not be us.
We are fighting for what we believe to be right, not just for us, but I hope for all people that desire peace.

See, I believe in the Rule Of Law so much, that I would rather see an evil man slip through the cracks, then one good man be killed unjustly. Becouse the evil man will surface again. His presence will always make itself known. That is what evil does. It requires good men to perpitrate it's deeds. Evil is so reconizable, becouse there are so few of them, that thier deeds must be public to satisfy thier ego.
But if one innocent man is unjustly railroaded, it is catistophic, becouse there are so many more to be scooped up, once that door is open. It becomes normal & acceptable. The level of what is evil expands, to the point that everything outside of the majority is evil.

We must be ever-vigilant in watching ourselves and our methods when fighting evil, lest we become the very monster we are fighting.

Yes, most will say that my views make me a hippy, touchey-feely, a liberal, politically correct, a republican, a democrat, whatever.
But I do not concern myself, nor reconize, labels.
That's just a way of grouping sigular people into a herd for judgment of thier beliefs as a whole.
I am me.
I belong to a group of one, in my personal thoughts and beliefs.
Becouse my perception of the world around me is unique.
As is every persons.
I have no desire or need to align myself with what is popular, just to belong, or fit in.
I can, and very often do, stand alone.
I do not require the support of others in my thoughts of beliefs.
This very world, and the times that I have lived in, built me.
I am a product of this world, these countries, and these peoples.
And thier relationships to each other.
I have read, I have seen, I have heard, and I have expirenced.
And that is all me.

I love this country, but more so, I love this World.
My part in it is to do what i can to make it a better place for everyone.
Being limited in my resources & intelligence, and above all, courage, I choose words.
If I see wrong, I feel obligated to speak about it.
It is my duty, my right, and my pleasure.
And in that, I can never be wrong.
You may not agree with me, but you cannot deny my perception.
Becouse it is mine, and mine alone.

And most of the times, I am, indeed, alone in it.

So please, for those of you who think the course we are pursuing in this current conflict againest evil is the only effective course available to us, I say to you:

"Are you sure you have given this problem the amount of thought a complicated & far-reaching situation of this magnitude deserves?"

Becouse I believe our decisions, motives, & the methods that we pratice today, will affect not just us and the world, but future generations & contries, and the course of thier desisions, and how they look at and treat other peoples and each other.

I hope we get it right.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 09-21-2006).]

All liberals think they're smarter than everyone else. As if somehow short-sightedness and misplaced emapthy equate into greater intellect. Ahh well...yeah, it's like a person feeling the need to tell people that they have class.
You think you're the only one here with any foresight, empathy, or the ability to see both sides? I see both sides, and still stand by my position.

I don't see how liberal has anything to do with this. Either you are for the U.S. Constitution or against it.


If you feel that it is justifyable to violate another individuals RIGHTS be he a Citisen or GUEST then you are against the U.S. Constitution..

It is spelled out VERY CLEARLY that everyone has the right to DUE PROCESS.

Do you agree or disagree with the U.S. Constitution?

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: All liberals think they're smarter than everyone else. As if somehow short-sightedness and misplaced emapthy equate into greater intellect. Ahh well...yeah, it's like a person feeling the need to tell people that they have class. You think you're the only one here with any foresight, empathy, or the ability to see both sides? I see both sides, and still stand by my position.

We've already covered every angle of this. If you're truly interested in my opinion, than you can find whatever you want to know in any of my posts.
I've already said, no one is going to change anyone else's mind about any of this. It's like 99% of the other debates that go on here.

And you said it was "necessary" to violate the rights of another.

Ok got ya.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: We've already covered every angle of this. If you're truly interested in my opinion, than you can find whatever you want to know in any of my posts. I've already said, no one is going to change anyone else's mind about any of this. It's like 99% of the other debates that go on here.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: All liberals think they're smarter than everyone else.

Not necessarily, but silly comments like that do nothing to dispel this belief.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: And you said it was "necessary" to violate the rights of another. Ok got ya.

In your typical fashion, you manage to grab one part of two pages of dialog and think that's a reasonable summary of a person's opinion. And you have the audacity to critisize the government for making assumptions?????

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: That's me, just a big ole silly-comment making conservative good ole boy drooling in a cup who thinks we should just torture everyone just to make sure they don't know anything.

No, I don't believe that for a second. You've made some good posts here over the years, including a real inspirational one a long time ago about some fella who helped you on the side of the highway when you were down and out. That's why I have great difficulty understanding your present viewpoint on this matter. I disagree with you vehemently on this topic, but that doesn't mean I consider all your arguments to be totally without merit.

I've followed this thread from the beginning and I don't remember if I commented on it at all or not. If I did, it was just a post or two.

Boonie, I have to ask. Given the choice, would you rather live under Islamic law or to aggresively and with prejudice pursue those who would force you to do so? Do you, honestly, think that the enemy (call them Islamic extremists, terrorists, or whatever name you choose) cares one bit about any of this? Do you honestly think that we can even defeat them if we completely play by the rules? If you go out to play a game of one-on-one and you observe all the rules of traveling, fouls, etc., and the guy you're playing with punches you in the mouth everytime you have the ball, takes it away, and scores, do you honestly think you're going to win the game? If you're going to play a game by the rules, BOTH sides have to abide by the rules or the one that doesn't......WINS. This isn't a game, Bonnie. This is nothing we can afford to lose, and not for us. They don't realize it yet (I don't' think) but if we fail in Iraq and Afganistan, and Iran gets nuclear weapons and follows through on their promise to destroy Israel, EUROPE IS LOST. Period. In this country, we have less than 5% Islamic population. In Europe, they are approaching 50%. Do you really think they will stand if we abandon them? Not a chance.

One of the aspects of terror/torture is that if the enemy KNOWS, or even THINKS THEY KNOW that the opposition is willing to use it, it may not HAVE to be used! They may be very willing to tell what they know with no torture or other nastiness involved. OTOH, if they KNOW that we play by the rules, if they BELIEVE that by getting captured it's a ticket to a country club, are they going to say anything at all?

Don't get me wrong, I don't support this. I never have. I think we are and should be above it. But as I read about the suicide bombers killing a dozen Islamic women at a funeral, as I read about the extremists specifically targeting children, as I listen to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad say that he is going to wipe Israel off the map and "death to all Jews" I am becoming more and more convinced that our lack of ruthlessness will be our undoing. I'm deadly serious about this. As we tear at our own bellies with howls of constitutional rights violations, and outrage at things like Abu Gharib, and the "secret prisons", I really wonder how hard our enemy must be laughing at us, the same enemy that delighted in videotaping beheadings to show the world and PROVE their ruthlessness. As they watch our media put our angst on display for all the world to see, do you think that's demoralizing them or is it emboldening them?

Your answer is simple..........don't do it. OK. I'm with you. NOW WHAT?!?!?! Seriously. What do you propose? A catch and release program? Full trial by jury for all of the terrorists captured? What, Boonie? What is it you want to do? Don't just stand there on your soapbox beating your chest about how smart you are, SHOW ME how smart you are by offering a realistic, workable alternative! You infer there is a more "effective course", so, what is it?

One thing I've noticed about the liberal voice is they are by and large a voice of dissent, with almost NO solutions to the problems being offered, only the ability to tell all the rest of the poor dumb schmucks how it's being done wrong. As an example, take global warming and greenhouse gasses. They scream to high heaven about how the SUV's and all the cars and factories in the west are causing it, often still yelling as they leave their rally and get in their SUV's to leave. No real alternatives. No real plan to make things better, only criticism of what's been done. Another example? Our education system. "No child left behind is garbage!!!" they scream. So, what do you propose? Go back to the old system of no accountability and just pump more money into it, even though in a rural area like mine we're already spending $13,000+ per pupil per year?

To answer your question more directly, though, Peace as referred to by Islam means SUBMISSION. Is that what you want, Boonie? That's all that's going to be accepted by the extremists..........submission. It's good and appropriate to question what's going on, has gone on, and is being done, but we best temper that with the very real awareness that if we lose this war, we may all be governed under sharia law. Then I want to hear you protest about the loss of your civil liberties. My enemy is he who will give his life to kill me. Do YOU doubt our enemies' resolve? I don't.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I am going to leave this thread with this: So please, for those of you who think the course we are pursuing in this current conflict againest evil is the only effective course available to us, I say to you: "Are you sure you have given this problem the amount of thought a complicated & far-reaching situation of this magnitude deserves?" Becouse I believe our decisions, motives, & the methods that we pratice today, will affect not just us and the world, but future generations & contries, and the course of thier desisions, and how they look at and treat other peoples and each other. I hope we get it right.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: All liberals think they're smarter than everyone else. As if somehow short-sightedness and misplaced emapthy equate into greater intellect. Ahh well...yeah, it's like a person feeling the need to tell people that they have class. You think you're the only one here with any foresight, empathy, or the ability to see both sides? I see both sides, and still stand by my position.

Labels.

I do indeed think that most people are shallow & reactionary in thier thinking when it comes to our current situation.
And I'll tell you why.
I don't think i'm any huge brain, or possess any great gift for exceptional logic.
But I do think I am able to reconize the need & the ability to step outside myself and the situation, and examine cause & effect, to the nth power. I can, and do, spend hours looking at one action, and then following all the posible future branches of the effects & reactions of that action. And then I go back, pick another desision & path, and start all over.

In my recent expirience, I find other's thinking on this particular situation, flawed.
Becouse they are basing thier opinions & actions about this "War On Terror" on the belief that this threat can be beaten.
It can not.
The threat of terror & terrorists will always exsist.
They always have, and always will.
Weither foreign or domestic, it will always be a tool of war to those willing & able to use it.

My concern is that as we shred our beliefs and lower ourselves & our methods to the level of the very evil we are fighting, we not only become them, but we encourage others to take up those very same methods, as we become more and more seen as no better the evil we are fighting.

Terror is not something that is done to you.
It is something you do to yourself.
You can only be scared of someone if you allow someone to scare you.

Protecting yourself does not mean going out and killing every other person on the planet, before they kill you.
The killer must come to you.
So you will know him.

This war cannot be won.
And we should stop using tatics that assume it can.
The only effective way to keep them out of our house (country) is to lock the door (borders).
And then kill them when they crawl through the window (sneak in).

You can't reason with them, you can't change them, and you sure can't threaten them with death.
You can't just kill terrorists, and think terror, as a tool, will just go away.
Becouse the world will just keep building more.

My fear is that if we keep screwing over our own people, in the name of security, we will end up with a far more dangerous threat right here in our own country.
Imagine a threat familiar .
It could destory this country from within.
And open the door to a world of outside threats.

If anyone has noticed, the enemy is not getting weaker.
Everyday, thier daily body count goes up from the day before.
How long must good men be thrown into the grinder of a war I'm sure those in charge know can't be won.
Becouse there is nothing to win.
You can't win gaurinteed safety.
It don't exsist.
At best, we are just keeping them busy.
For now.

We have got to change our tactics, and the way we view this enemy.
Do I have the answer as to what will keep us safe from those that would do us harm?
No.
But I know what isn't working.
And even if it was, it wouldn't for long.

Hell, maybe we should start there, lock down the whole country, start weeding through people, one at a time, call every person into regesteration sites, giving them identity papers, put soldiers on every corners checking them papers in thier day-to-day movements, and slowly weed out the good people from the bad. Those that aren't regestered or engaged in unathorized movement, are jailed.

You want absolute safety?
A Police State can do it.
Not just there, but everywhere, in every country.
Even here.
Safety through oppression.
Although, ofcourse it soon becomes a breading ground for terrorists.

See where I'm going?
How can something like this war & the threat we are under be won?

We have to regroup, rethink, and alter the way we deal with this threat.