quote Originally posted by 84Bill: It's all good but please, forgive me ace, I'm doing the same.. I swaer! Thats right, you did your job, came home in one piece, still had your wife and family, and by all appearences better pay, congratulations on your success story..... be thankful, some were not as fortunate as you. It is those "less fortunates" that I am supporting, not you. No slight intended but quite obviously don't need it, you have everything you needed and more than most.. Again, be VERY thankful. I sure as hell am, because I didn't have to go over there. By comparison to 2300 others, you definatly don't need a thank you from me for doing your job and if you ever asked for one I'd be very unhappy with your request. Never forget you are a servant of this country to do as you were ordered. If I had my way your friends wouldn't be all ****ed up and your realitive would still be alive. And the death of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi may have just stopped 10s to 100s to 1000s of future sacrifices. Sometimes it's great and sometimes it really sucks. I'm VERY glad things are all roses and fileds of daiseys for you... and I do very sincearly mean that. Ever think about your brothers and sisters who havent? I do, daily.

Bill, you THINK about it everyday.......I LIVE it everyday. I pull out of my driveway and see the Gold Star Banner in my window (Signifying the loss of a family member in war.) I go to work and notify another Soldier that he/she is going to the sandbox for 12-18 months. My roommate over there just came back from treatment at Walter Reed for PTSD. I get a phone call from my niece later on in the day because she's lonely or needs advice from the closest thing she can relate to as a father figure. I have a wife that doesn't agree with the war, while I am 100% in support of the war. War is a neccesary evil. Sacrifices must be made and 2300 have been. But I do know that those 2300 sacrifices were made so that 3000 or 10000 are not made by terrorists again on our soil and perhaps we can change the veiwpoint of a region so that future generations do not have to make sacrifices.

[This message has been edited by aceman (edited 06-09-2006).]

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: I wouldn't call em "stupid" even though I say it sometimes.. I not really saying, I'm just .. you know... saying it.

Bill,
We've had many discussions, I know we are both celebrating what's his name demise, I'll leave that where it lays. What I wanted to point out is just how some of these flame wars get escalated. You're not the only one, you just happen to be the one that is easily quoted in this thread. There has already been a bunch of name calling and accusations/insinuations. Just because we don't agree on a topic doesn't mean you or I are pieces of Sh*t. Emotions can easily get out of control, I insult you personally, you return the favor, and away we go. There are others that have made some pretty offensive statements referring to others in this thread, not only does it deminish the argument they are trying to support, it ends up with being blown off when the argument/post may have actually held some significant facts that might sway an opinion or two. What I find interesting is that we have some very intelligent folks here who end up in flame wars because someone spoke out of emotion and quite franly put their foot in their mouth and made themselves look pretty friggin stupid. Thank you for the statement above, sometimes it's tough to read through the BS. Just my two cents worth, truly not intended as a flame. BTW,I have been guilty of the same stupid infractions. I'm still glad what's his name is dead, one less extreemist to deal with.

Editted for spelling, sure hope I got all of them.

------------------
Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's paid for with the blood and dreams of those that have gone before us.
My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Well, there is that money issue.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 06-09-2006).]

quote Originally posted by aceman: You support the troops? How?......No......REALLY........How do you support the troops? Did I get a care package from you last year? Did you send me a card of thanks? Did you talk to my family and ensure all was going okay? Did you shovel my walk or rake my leaves? Did you call up your Congressman and say, "Look, we're in this war and we aren't getting out of it. Please eartag more $$$ directly to the troops over there." Or, did you slap a magnet on your car "Support Our Troops"?????

You bring up an interesting point, ace. I say I support the troops, but it's primarily a moral support. You have my respect. I haven't been beating the streets, sending cards and letters, or volunteering at Fort Bragg. I do make my voice known. In elections I vote for those who I think will make the better decisions. And no, I don't have a "Support the Troops" ribbon on my car, although I do fly my flag (well, I have to get a new flag mount for my new house - I just moved).

I guess what I'm asking is, is my support not wanted if I don't rake your leaves or lobby my representatives for more military spending?

What would YOU ask of a grateful nation and her people?

Formula88,
My honest answer. I HATE the "Support our troops" magnets on everyones cars. It's become like "Have a nice day". I personally dislike people coming up to me while I'm shopping at a grocery store and say "Thank you." or "You're in our prayers", etc.... I don't come up to a guy with Sly Eddie's Pontiac Dealership tag on his uniform and thank him or give him my prayers or thank the cashier at the 7/11 and tell them they have my support. The military is my job, my career. I chose this as such. Not to be a hero or be placed on a pedestal. I'm a Soldier. I do my job. This viewpoint is not being selfish or ungrateful. I just see myself performing a job....a career... a life.
Most of the time, the quotes "I support the troops" are shalIow and without meaning. I don't expect the public's support. I don't need to hear the support. The politicians need to hear the support.

Fly your flag! And thank you for showing your support for this country. Don't fly it to show support for me and my fellow Soldiers.

quote Originally posted by aceman: I don't come up to a guy with Sly Eddie's Pontiac Dealership tag on his uniform and thank him or give him my prayers or thank the cashier at the 7/11 and tell them they have my support. The military is my job, my career. I chose this as such.

Those people aren't helping total strangers. They are only helping their customers.

Military people are providing for general protection and freedom for all citizens, the majority which have no personal relationship to them. I know and acknowledge that the military is your job and career. I know you chose it and accept what goes with it, whether you like it or not. But just because you are getting paid for it doesn't mean it does not merit any signs of appreciation from those that benefit.

I'm not going to walk by military personnel in public and think, "hey, you got paid. You knew what you were getting into. So that's it. Don't expect any gratitude." I can certainly understand your sense of duty, and with not expecting to be thanked by strangers, and maybe not even completely feeling comfortable with it. But a personal thanks is a MUCH higher level of acknowledgement than a bumper sticker, which I also feel is trite to the point of meaningless.

I WISH it was SO common for you to be thanked by strangers that you were thinking, "Arrgghh. Would everyone PLEASE quit thanking me. I am SO sick of being thanked." (maybe you are to that point. Oh, and one more thing, aceman. THANK YOU for your service to the country, and more specifically, to me personally for whatever part your contribution to my freedom and safety has been, even though you are just doing your job.)

I hear ya man.

quote Originally posted by aceman: Bill, you THINK about it everyday.......I LIVE it everyday. I pull out of my driveway and see the Gold Star Banner in my window (Signifying the loss of a family member in war.) I go to work and notify another Soldier that he/she is going to the sandbox for 12-18 months. My roommate over there just came back from treatment at Walter Reed for PTSD. I get a phone call from my niece later on in the day because she's lonely or needs advice from the closest thing she can relate to as a father figure. I have a wife that doesn't agree with the war, while I am 100% in support of the war.

Spoken like a true soldier should. Dedicated, Motivated and ready to do what he has got to do when told to do it.. I can't fault you for that and anyone who does has absolutly NO knowledge of what soldiering is all about. But I must say that the sacrefice of one life for another does not make the wrong a right.

quote War is a neccesary evil. Sacrifices must be made and 2300 have been. But I do know that those 2300 sacrifices were made so that 3000 or 10000 are not made by terrorists again on our soil and perhaps we can change the veiwpoint of a region so that future generations do not have to make sacrifices.

I duno what religion you are refering to but I have no doubt all parties involved feel the exact same way.

R-E-G-I-O-N, Bill, not RELIGION

Heh... well.. it's kinda the same thing but only different.
You will always have those people who defy change. They liked their country just the way it was and don't want anyone telling them how they should live... Funny and almost ironic but I feel the same way as they do but the issues I'm concerened about don't involve occupiers in the physical sense of the word.

quote Originally posted by aceman: R-E-G-I-O-N, Bill, not RELIGION

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Anyway, that statement seems very silly to me.

I greatly appreciate that you expressed yourself directly, yet did it in a way that was not insulting. It makes it a lot more fun to discuss things.

I agree if you only looked at the statement in DIRECT relation to since 9-11, it could seem silly.

But I'm looking at it since I was born in 1956. As I recall, the number of times the US has been invaded since 1956 is...zero. I doubt that the reason is that no one else in the world would like to come into the US and take our stuff, or our way of life. I just assumed that the reason they didn't was because of the US military. So having a military like we have, whether they fought in a war or not, I am appreciative of every soldier because I have been able to live my entire life in the US without worrying about someone coming in and over-running things and killing me or my family, or enslaving us, or ruining our way of life. Therefore, I can enjoy the freedom that I have.

The largest threat to my freedom, then, has not come from military people like aceman. It has come from my own government. You mentioned feeling less free in certain areas. I don't feel that, but you say you do so I take you at your word for it. But I doubt you feel less free due to actions of the military people that I was mentioning, but due to the government.

Regarding King george having a 30 mile buffer of restricted air space and nifty bunkers, that may be, but it hasn't reduced the miltary people's provision of level of protection that you had before 9-11. And if their actions abroad are effective in reducing capability of terrorists carrying out attacks in the U.S., you are more protected, although maybe not to a palpable degree in St. Lucie. I wouldn't be surprised at that, because I don't feel any more protected in suburban Milwaukee as I never felt particularly threatened in this portion of the U.S. (that is, I don't feel like my area is a big target. I would feel differently in certain cities in the US).

So perhaps with that clarification, you possibly might consider my statement less silly. Maybe not, but at least I got a further chance to explain it since you, in a very nice way, brought up your points.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: I greatly appreciate that you expressed yourself directly, yet did it in a way that was not insulting. It makes it a lot more fun to discuss things. I agree if you only looked at the statement in DIRECT relation to since 9-11, it could seem silly. But I'm looking at it since I was born in 1956. As I recall, the number of times the US has been invaded since 1956 is...zero. I doubt that the reason is that no one else in the world would like to come into the US and take our stuff, or our way of life. I just assumed that the reason they didn't was because of the US military. So having a military like we have, whether they fought in a war or not, I am appreciative of every soldier because I have been able to live my entire life in the US without worrying about someone coming in and over-running things and killing me or my family, or enslaving us, or ruining our way of life. Therefore, I can enjoy the freedom that I have. The largest threat to my freedom, then, has not come from military people like aceman. It has come from my own government. You mentioned feeling less free in certain areas. I don't feel that, but you say you do so I take you at your word for it. But I doubt you feel less free due to actions of the military people that I was mentioning, but due to the government.

Ahh... now it makes more sense.

quote Regarding King george having a 30 mile buffer of restricted air space and nifty bunkers, that may be, but it hasn't reduced the miltary people's provision of level of protection that you had before 9-11. And if their actions abroad are effective in reducing capability of terrorists carrying out attacks in the U.S., you are more protected, although maybe not to a palpable degree in St. Lucie. I wouldn't be surprised at that, because I don't feel any more protected in suburban Milwaukee as I never felt particularly threatened in this portion of the U.S. (that is, I don't feel like my area is a big target. I would feel differently in certain cities in the US).

Well that may be so but it's the actions and untouchability of my government that has left me feeling with a much higher degree of angxiety. Hell, I'm an american citizen and I can't even fly my airplane over DC without divine permision or within 30 miles of the king where ever he may be.. In fact all traffic is halted when the king passes. It's very reminicent of the days of olde england.

quote So perhaps with that clarification, you possibly might consider my statement less silly. Maybe not, but at least I got a further chance to explain it since you, in a very nice way, brought up your points.

I do feel it is less silly. However I feel that a policy change regarding the handeling of and respect of other nations to govern themselves in a way the populace finds acceptable might be more in order. I mean since the end of the war of Independance the US hasn't had to use it's military on its own soil to defend its freedom from an aggresor.. cept maybe when england need another kick in the ass. Other than that the US has fough only on forign soil for freedom of others.. who for the most part don't like us anymore. So.. why do we continue this obviously thankless endevor of ours? We have it, we restrict our own in the process of giveing it to them (or atleast try) then they don't like us anymore. :::shruggs::: I don't get it. How does this make my short stint on this planet any better?

quote Originally posted by Toddster: It amazes me that some people are passing this off as a "no biggie" event. What if Hitler had been killed in WW2? This bastard IS and WAS the key player in Al-Queda in Iraq before and during the war (dispite some ignorant fools belief to the contrary). The evidence in not contested, even by the looney left like Pelosi. So why is it being contested here?

From the above-mentioned wikipedia article:

At the time, Zarqawi's group was a rival of bin Laden's. A CIA report in late 2004 concluded that it had no evidence Saddam's government was involved or aware of this medical treatment, and that "There's no conclusive evidence the Saddam Hussein regime had harbored Zarqawi." One U.S. official summarized the report: "The evidence is that Saddam never gave Zarqawi anything."

It's been widely known by everyone (except apparently you for some reason) that al-Zarqawi nor any al-Qaeda members had anything to do with Iraq or Saddam, and Saddam nor Iraq had anything to do with 9/11.

I just can't understand why you continue with this delusion, and wonder if it's pathological.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: This mother ******'s death is a great thing for Iraq, the war on terror just notched a HUGE one on their pistol grip, and it has said very clearly to Bin Laden that his days are numbered.

Yes, he deserved to die, nobody disputes that, not even really his compatriots since his martyrdom will do more for their cause than his life ever could. The war on the method of terror can claim this as a great success, no dispute of that for sure, but my dispute is that this actually changes anything in any real way. Your attitude implies that his death will reduce bombings, reduce terrorism, hasten the end of the war, etc, and that is yet to be seen or proven. In fact, I'm going to post this easy to remember number sequence so that I can pull this thread up periodically and see just what effect al-Zarqawi's death really had.

123456

As far as binj-Ladin goes, we shouldn't have diverted all our resources away from Afganistan/Tora Bora just as we were on the verge of getting him and instead sending our soldiers, special ops teams, assets, and money to Iraq. If we hadn't picked a war with Iraq I bet we would have rolled up Osama and most of his network by now.

But as a wise friend says, "that's water under the bridge", or "we made our bed, now we have to sleep in it", or some such bit of wisdom about how bad decisions create bad futures.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: The positive effect on the Iraqi people's moral I can only guess at but I'd have to say they are dancing in the streets.

Positive morale is all fine and good, but feeling good doesn't stop car bombs.

We will lose this so-called war on terror because A)We're fighting a method, not a nation, and everything we're doing is making more people use that method and not less. B)We're fighting people who want to die because it's the fastest way to heaven in their book and their recruiting is outpacing our ability to kill them. C)The current administration has no clue about middle east and islamic cultures and chooses not to learn or care. An enemy that's not understood cannot be beaten.

How will we lose? On two fronts mainly. 1. Terrorist attacks on our soil, as big if not bigger than 9/11 or so numerous as to make it feel like Iraq over here. 2. Dissolution of our culture of freedoms and rights and the resulting talibanization and balkanization of our nation as the Christians solidify their fundamentalism in the face of non-Christian religions gaining power here.

Anyway I digress...

Your contention that al-Qaeda had anything to do with pre-9/11 Iraq or Saddam has long ago been proven just plain wrong.

Oh, and I find your comparison of Hitler, elected leader of one of the most industrially and technologically advanced countries of the time and commander an army that numbered in the millions to al-Zarqawi to be particularly humorous.

JazzMan

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 06-09-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Jazzman: From the above-mentioned wikipedia article: At the time, Zarqawi's group was a rival of bin Laden's. A CIA report in late 2004 concluded that it had no evidence Saddam's government was involved or aware of this medical treatment, and that "There's no conclusive evidence the Saddam Hussein regime had harbored Zarqawi." One U.S. official summarized the report: "The evidence is that Saddam never gave Zarqawi anything." It's been widely known by everyone (except apparently you for some reason) that al-Zarqawi nor any al-Qaeda members had anything to do with Iraq or Saddam, and Saddam nor Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. I just can't understand why you continue with this delusion, and wonder if it's pathological.

Talk about pathalogical.

I'll skip right past the idiocy of quoting wikipedia on ANYTHING since they are facing over 600 lawsuits for liable.

Let's get to the fact that you have been told TIME AND TIME AND TIME AND TIME again about Zarqawi's relationship to Saddams Son Uday and the Iraqi regime's financial assistance and terror trainign camps that Zarqawi ran INSIDE the borders of Iraq. You have been repeatedly directed to the INDEPENDENT UN and Egyptian intel that not only showed pictures of Uday and Zarqawi laughing it up together but actual pics of the terror sites and even copies of Zarqawis ****ing hospital records in Baghdad.

And yet you contend that...what...it never happened because you read it in some article posted by another liberal reality denialist in Wikipedia?

Quit taking drugs Jazz. Haven't you seen those "your brain of drugs" ads on TV?

quote Yes, he deserved to die, nobody disputes that, not even really his compatriots since his martyrdom will do more for their cause than his life ever could. The war on the method of terror can claim this as a great success, no dispute of that for sure, but my dispute is that this actually changes anything in any real way. Your attitude implies that his death will reduce bombings, reduce terrorism, hasten the end of the war, etc, and that is yet to be seen or proven. In fact, I'm going to post this easy to remember number sequence so that I can pull this thread up periodically and see just what effect al-Zarqawi's death really had.

What martyrdom? He did in bed. He didn't go out in a blaze of glory on some battlefield. He didn't get killed in a homicide bombing attack. He didn't take out one single "infidel" with his death. Hell, if the Military press could get away with it they should have shown a picture of him with his pants down near a toilet as his point of entry into paradise whent he bomb hit.

Don't be a sap. His death will result in fewer bombings, not more. Haven't you been paying attention for the last 3 years. every time we get another bad guy attacks DECREASE. Saying that you hope they will increase to score some political credibility is not only showing that you are in denial but also a monster who cares more about being proven "right" than showing you care about helping aid in American security which is what the whole war is about in the first place.

quote As far as binj-Ladin goes, we shouldn't have diverted all our resources away from Afganistan/Tora Bora just as we were on the verge of getting him and instead sending our soldiers, special ops teams, assets, and money to Iraq. If we hadn't picked a war with Iraq I bet we would have rolled up Osama and most of his network by now. But as a wise friend says, "that's water under the bridge", or "we made our bed, now we have to sleep in it", or some such bit of wisdom about how bad decisions create bad futures.

You would lose that bet...big surprise. He wasn't in Tora Bora. Latest Intel shows he wasn't in the Tora Bora region as liberals would love us to believe. The only thing we DO know is that Clinton literally had him in the crosshairs and didn't kill his ass when he had the chance. he could have prevented 9/11 before it happened. Also, latest Intel says Bin Laden is in Pakistan, not Afghanistan. Shall we bomb Karachi?

quote Positive morale is all fine and good, but feeling good doesn't stop car bombs.

Killing car bombers DOES. What part of that equation is giving you trouble?

quote We will lose this so-called war on terror because A)We're fighting a method, not a nation, and everything we're doing is making more people use that method and not less. B)We're fighting people who want to die because it's the fastest way to heaven in their book and their recruiting is outpacing our ability to kill them. C)The current administration has no clue about middle east and islamic cultures and chooses not to learn or care. An enemy that's not understood cannot be beaten. How will we lose? On two fronts mainly. 1. Terrorist attacks on our soil, as big if not bigger than 9/11 or so numerous as to make it feel like Iraq over here. 2. Dissolution of our culture of freedoms and rights and the resulting talibanization and balkanization of our nation as the Christians solidify their fundamentalism in the face of non-Christian religions gaining power here. Anyway I digress... Your contention that al-Qaeda had anything to do with pre-9/11 Iraq or Saddam has long ago been proven just plain wrong. Oh, and I find your comparison of Hitler, elected leader of one of the most industrially and technologically advanced countries of the time and commander an army that numbered in the millions to al-Zarqawi to be particularly humorous. JazzMan

Who mentioned 9/11?

Your statement that you "digress" is about the only accurate thing I've ever heard you say. But I will be more than happy to remind you of your contention that we will lose this war (when we have completely won and withdrawn our troops from a peaceful soveriegn Iraq) as a reminder of how illogical and shallow your thought process is where the motives and reactions of human beings are concerned.

You are truly oblivious Jazz. But you are great entertainment. Laughter is good for your health and thanks to you I will probably live to be 100.

Keep it up.