You with the sad eyes Don't be discouraged Oh I realize It's hard to take courage In a world full of people You can lose sight of it all And the darkness, inside you Can make you feel so small
But I see your true colors Shining through I see your true colors And that's why I love you So don't be afraid to let them show Your true colors
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05:48 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37848 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Are you really saying that the hundreds of IEDs every week are all the result of Al Qaeda bribing and blackmailing Iraqi's? What happened to the tens of thousands of Iraqi army and police that we disbanded when we took over? Where are they? They are fighting us in civilian clothes, that's where they are.
BTW what was your position over there? From what I understand the officers by and large are support the war and the grunts mostly just want to come home. Especially the guys looking for IED's and those constantly moviing through convoys.
Again, check your sources Conn, Troops always ***** .. (I was one) felt used for "fighting for oil".. until I came across my first slaughter chamber.. 20+ kuwati women who had been used and then killed, and then thrown away in a bunker.
Thats the sick f*** level we're fighting, yes sounds cliche' now but hey dumb ass look at 9/11 really look at it and what drove those poor marytrs to drive planes intio buildings to kill the infidels.
Does this sound weird and twisted.. hello sunshine..
Look past the media, look for the soldiers blogs, you might get a better idea of whats going on.
If not.. fine, join your rep Kennedy with the NIMBY approach.. and never get your hands dirty.. (don't know what Im talking about, look up wind farm and Kennedy.. and how he voted to oppose one because it would mess up is ocean view)
Again, check your sources Conn, Troops always ***** .. (I was one) felt used for "fighting for oil".. until I came across my first slaughter chamber.. 20+ kuwati women who had been used and then killed, and then thrown away in a bunker.
Thats the sick f*** level we're fighting, yes sounds cliche' now but hey dumb ass look at 9/11 really look at it and what drove those poor marytrs to drive planes intio buildings to kill the infidels.
Does this sound weird and twisted.. hello sunshine..
That whole section of the world is ****ed up Uuana. I know it, you it, and they know it. We wouldn;t give a rats ass about that place if it wasn't for the massive instability it causes the world's and specifically our economy. I know we are there for strategic and economic reasons. It also helps that we tried to liberate a whole country from a dictator in the process. But that doesn't change the fact that we were lied in to it, lied to till this day, and our friends, family, and neighbors are dying on foreign soil. Our soldiers are doing their jobs, and they should be applauded for it, but they are unsure who, why, and what we are fighting.
quote
Look past the media, look for the soldiers blogs, you might get a better idea of whats going on.
Even blogs are scrubbed by the US military you know. I can ask my friends or watch interviews from soldiers. That's as good as it gets short of actually being there.
quote
If not.. fine, join your rep Kennedy with the NIMBY approach.. and never get your hands dirty.. (don't know what Im talking about, look up wind farm and Kennedy.. and how he voted to oppose one because it would mess up is ocean view)
As if this has anything to do with this discussion.
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05:58 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37848 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by connecticutFIERO: What happened to the tens of thousands of Iraqi army and police that we disbanded when we took over? Where are they?
ooooohhh.... ooooohhh...I know, I know,........pick me. Please pick me! They were part of the racial minority that held cush jobs because of who they knew and who they blew.
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Originally posted by connecticutFIERO: They are fighting us in civilian clothes, that's where they are.
Civillians hide there faces? Who are those people over there that are undesguised?
Civillians hide there faces? Who are those people over there that are undesguised?
Hide their faces? I'm not sure if you are trying to make a point.
Do you have a point? Because I have noticed nobody seems to have mounted any concerted effort to challenge my claims. I can provide more evidence if you like.
U.S. forces sometimes found it convenient to feed the al-Zarqawi myth. Most experts believe his foreign fighters make up only a fraction of the insurgency, but the U.S. military portrayed al-Zarqawi as its most dangerous foe in Iraq. The $25 million price put on his head matched the bounty on bin Laden.
The Washington Post reported this year that internal military documents showed the U.S. military mounted a psyops (psychological operations) campaign to magnify the role of al-Zarqawi in the insurgency.
“Our own focus on Zarqawi has enlarged his caricature, if you will, made him more important than he really is,” military intelligence officer Colonel Derek Harvey was quoted as saying."
[This message has been edited by connecticutFIERO (edited 06-08-2006).]
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06:15 PM
sostock Member
Posts: 5907 From: Grain Valley, MO Registered: May 2005
ya'll please don't trash up my post. if you want to discuss middle east politics start another thread. if don't agree with 1) he is dead or 2) the entire world is better off that he is dead, then i'd love to hear your comments.
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06:17 PM
ryan.hess Member
Posts: 20784 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Dec 2002
Originally posted by connecticutFIERO: “Our own focus on Zarqawi has enlarged his caricature, if you will, made him more important than he really is,” military intelligence officer Colonel Derek Harvey was quoted as saying."
hmmm... if anything then, the video of him trying to work a weapon makes a little more sense now.
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06:19 PM
blackrams Member
Posts: 33143 From: Covington, TN, USA Registered: Feb 2003
Conn, I realize you're young and haven't really figured out how things work, I readily admit I still don't know who and what to believe many times but, here's a chance for you to find out the truth, sign up for the National Guard, volunteer go to serve in Iraq or Afganistan. Take the opportunity to do something other than preach about what you know nothing about except what your "research" indicates with the slanted sources you always quote. Let's throw politics out of this.
Here's a challenge for ya, I'm old so I'm not sure they'll take me, but if you'll go, I'll be there with ya. What do you say? Let's go find out for ourselves since you won't believe what someone that's been there tells you. Think I'm BSing you, lets go find out.
I have a pretty lenghtly military service record but before I sent this email, I called my local National Guard recruiter just to check, though I'll have to lose some weight, I can still go with you, though just barely. What do you say? At least then, you can speak with some knowledge and maybe even get a little respect. I'm not trying to flame you, I'll watch your six , you watch mine.
------------------ Ron Freedom isn't Free, it's paid for with the blood and dreams of those that have gone before us. My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Well, there is that money issue.
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 06-08-2006).]
Conn, I realize you're young and haven't really figured out how things work, I readily admit I still don't know who and what to believe many times but, here's a chance for you to find out the truth, sign up for the National Guard, volunteer go to serve in Iraq or Afganistan. Take the opportunity to do something other than preach about what you know nothing about except what your "research" indicates with the slanted sources you always quote. Let's throw politics out of this.
Here's a challenge for ya, I'm old so I'm not sure they'll take me, but if you'll go, I'll be there with ya. What do you say? Let's go find out for ourselves since you won't believe what someone that's been there tells you. Think I'm BSing you, lets go find out.
I have a pretty lenghtly military service record but before I sent this email, I called my local National Guard recruiter just to check, though I'll have to lose some weight, I can still go with you, though just barely. What do you say? At least then, you can speak with some knowledge and maybe even get a little respect. I'm not trying to flame you, I'll watch your six , you watch mine.
There is no way in hell I would willingly go to Iraq. Is it because I am a coward? Is that your purpose? To show me as some kind of big mouthed coward?
I get your argument. You claim I only cite slanted sources (as if MSNBC was liberal ), you infer I am just an ideological political hack with no real experience in the world, you even test my dedication and bravery with a "call to arms".
But I'm not going to play that game.
Both you and I know neither of us would willingly go to our deaths for this supposed "noble cause". If my country was invaded I would fight. If my presence was needed to secure victory over evil I would fight. But the truth is I would just be another pawn in a rich mans deadly game. One fraught with death, destruction, and greed. A game resulting in hundreds of thousands of dead and wounded. All for what? Freedom? Freedom for who? The Iraqi's or us? We aren't truly free, and neither are they.
We are ruled by an elite class of aristocrats, and they are ruled by fear of death.
I honestly feel for all those soldiers. They didn't sign up to be lied to and taken advantage of. They signed up for America, some for adventure, some for personal ambition, and a few for money. But I guarantee none of them signed up to protect people who are plotting their deaths as soon as we are out of sight. Our soldiers are dying when all they are trying to do protect the Iraqi's from themselves.. Mostly I hate to think those men are dying and they know it's for nothing. That breaks my heart.
I will not stop giving my honest perspective on this nightmare our country is engaged in. I am 26 years old, and maybe not a wise old man yet, but I'm no puppet, political hack, or ignorant fool. I refuse to accept your conditions or your premise. No sir, I will not go.
I'm sorry honey, your father was killed by a large piece of hot steel.
[This message has been edited by connecticutFIERO (edited 06-08-2006).]
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06:36 PM
PFF
System Bot
blackrams Member
Posts: 33143 From: Covington, TN, USA Registered: Feb 2003
Conn, Your response says much, so I'll just suggest we both enjoy the moment, an extreemist is dead, I'm sure the vaccum left by his demise will be filled by someone. Let's hope we can take him out to. If you change your mind, be sure to let me know, you're welcome to your political stance, I served too many years defending your right to free speech to try and deny that to you here.
------------------ Ron Freedom isn't Free, it's paid for with the blood and dreams of those that have gone before us. My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Well, there is that money issue.
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06:47 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37848 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by connecticutFIERO: I'm not sure if you are trying to make a point. Do you have a point? Because I have noticed nobody seems to have mounted any concerted effort to challenge my claims. I can provide more evidence if you like.
Yes, I hope to make a point, not get dragged into defense of it. It should be obvious. As obvious as the purple ink stains from an Iraqi that voted. Turnout greater than in the USA. They were not civillians?
Conn, Your response says much, so I'll just suggest we both enjoy the moment, an extreemist is dead, I'm sure the vaccum left by his demise will be filled by someone. Let's hope we can take him out to. If you change your mind, be sure to let me know, you're welcome to your political stance, I served too many years defending your right to free speech to try and deny that to you here.
The irony is that al-Zarqawi was a small-time hood with no real following and no meaningful clout in the world of extremist Islam and no connection with al-Qaida until Colin Powell went to the UN and made the (false) claim that al-Zarqawi was the connection between al-Qaida and Iraq. That one mistake on our part was what gave al-Zarqawi the "street-cred" as it were that he parlayed into what he became. We created him all by ourselves. If it wasn't for the push for war in Iraq that led to that erroneous Colin Powell statement, al-Zarqawi would still probably be a two-bit thug with no future and no past.
As to the effect of his killing? Nothing at all. He had already appointed multiple deputies after last year's near miss that are fully capable of stepping into his shoes without missing a beat. His followers are rejoicing in his trip to heaven and are celebrating his demise, and they are going to use his martyrdom to do more after his death than he ever could when he was alive.
JazzMan
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07:01 PM
aceman Member
Posts: 4899 From: Brooklyn Center, MN Registered: Feb 2003
Conn, You are naive to believe what you read in newsprint. They have their own agenda. Where are all the uniformed soldiers now that the war is over? Most are trying to make a living for their families. They never wanted to be in Saddam's military to begin with. Some joined the Islamic extremists for the Sunnis and some for the Shiites. Some joined the insurgents. It's the insurgents that are behind the IEDs and the mortar rounds I endured for 13 months. They're paying poor Iraqis or blackmailing Iraqis into setting them off. Those military extremists that took their uniforms off...........They're Sunnis killing Shiites amd Shiites killing Sunnis. And the foreign insurgents are just stirring the pots and trying to blame the U.S. for everything.
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08:51 PM
Wichita Member
Posts: 20708 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
The irony is that al-Zarqawi was a small-time hood with no real following and no meaningful clout in the world of extremist Islam and no connection with al-Qaida until Colin Powell went to the UN and made the (false) claim that al-Zarqawi was the connection between al-Qaida and Iraq. That one mistake on our part was what gave al-Zarqawi the "street-cred" as it were that he parlayed into what he became. We created him all by ourselves. If it wasn't for the push for war in Iraq that led to that erroneous Colin Powell statement, al-Zarqawi would still probably be a two-bit thug with no future and no past.
As to the effect of his killing? Nothing at all. He had already appointed multiple deputies after last year's near miss that are fully capable of stepping into his shoes without missing a beat. His followers are rejoicing in his trip to heaven and are celebrating his demise, and they are going to use his martyrdom to do more after his death than he ever could when he was alive.
JazzMan
An opinion made by some commentator on NPR. I heard the exact same thing.
If al-Zarqawi was a nobody, why in the hell would Colon Powell mention him? They didn't explain that. A two-bit hood doesn't get attention by the State Department unless they impose a serious threat.
Zarqawi met and was personal friends with bin-Laden and he did seek help from Saddams son where they gave aid and comfort to him before the Iraq Liberation took place.
Originally posted by connecticutFIERO: Both you and I know neither of us would willingly go to our deaths for this supposed "noble cause".
Just to make sure we're on the same page, our goal would be to make the other bastard die for his "noble cause". Not the other way around, quite frankly our side is pretty good at what we do.
Editted for spelling.
------------------ Ron Freedom isn't Free, it's paid for with the blood and dreams of those that have gone before us. My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Well, there is that money issue.
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 06-08-2006).]
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10:11 PM
htexans1 Member
Posts: 9115 From: Clear Lake City/Houston TX Registered: Sep 2001
We are good at what we do in the Military. I for one is glad he is gone. And, if you are in the Military here, Thank you for your service! And if you are a terrorist wanting to take Big Z's place: Like the Rock (of WWE fame) says: "Just Bring It!!" S.Williams And yes, I have been to Iraq, and would go again if needed.
------------------ 1988 Fiero Formula T-tops CJB 143 of 1252 "factory T-top cars"
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11:01 PM
Uaana Member
Posts: 6570 From: Robbinsdale MN US Registered: Dec 1999
An opinion made by some commentator on NPR. I heard the exact same thing.
If al-Zarqawi was a nobody, why in the hell would Colon Powell mention him? They didn't explain that. A two-bit hood doesn't get attention by the State Department unless they impose a serious threat.
Zarqawi met and was personal friends with bin-Laden and he did seek help from Saddams son where they gave aid and comfort to him before the Iraq Liberation took place.
Ok.. you eliminated ONE face and thats fine and dandy. Everyone is high fiving and back slapping eachother like some significant milestone has been achieved because of the media hype. Al-Zarqawi was only ONE of several who beheaded captors on video. Please explain the great significance of eliminating one guy and how it has propelled the war on global terror so far farward. There is a loooooooooong way to go!
I know you people call yourselves conservative but jesus christ man... You got one media hyped up "big fish", he was just one guy, one small player with a big face in the media. Yay! One down several thousand to go... YAY!
And to think it only took 3 years and 2300 american lives. YAY! Believe what you want. Fell free to dance in the streets but don't bastardize me for not buying into the CNN, ratings and advertizement scheme. Just don't hate me for being smart.
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Originally posted by Uaana: It's early.. just waiting on Conn and the rest to jump in like 84 and say this doesn't mean anything. "lib mantra" There is no good news from Iraq. "16 provinces, we'll only talk about the 2 that are messed up." And we have a great campaign set up for this year.. "we hate Bush" good god.. I like having the opposition in just to keep things honest but really guys.. you put Dean in charge? I know this is a little off track but don't feel like starting another poli thread. Hint/suggestion.. Dean/Gore/Clinton (hillary) annoy-piss off about 70% of the country Run guys like Lieberman and you might have a chance
BTW Your "leader" said to "not get a feeling of euphoria over the elimination of Al-Zarqawi" because it does not signify the end or even indicate we are close to the end of the Iraq war.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 06-09-2006).]
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06:10 AM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Come on, Bill, it is a victory. No, it doesn't end terrorism, but it's a substantial win, just like capturing Saddam was, and just like killing Saddam's sons. You know wars are not won in a single battle, and there is a powerful message whenever you take down a high profile leader, even if he's not the only leader.
Given that there were two possible outcomes here, eliminate al-Zarqawi or not, I suggest that eliminating him is preferable to letting him continue unhindered.
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08:57 AM
moleman_in_a_FieroGT Member
Posts: 792 From: Houston, TX, USA Registered: Apr 2006
And to think it only took 3 years and 2300 american lives. YAY! Believe what you want. Fell free to dance in the streets but don't bastardize me for not buying into the CNN, ratings and advertizement scheme. Just don't hate me for being smart.
Well, there are more ...efficient... ways of waging war. Japan learned that the hard way, but I doubt that the hippies would approve. Formula88's wisdom prevails again, though. That was another battle that we won, and it has a powerful message.
Veitnam had many such victories but that does not win a war. I don't view the capture of Sadam a victore nor would I view the capture of OBL because it's not a war winning event. You say zarqawi was a "big figure" but by all accounts he was operating independantly. Hardly worthey of the hype he is being given. If you want me in this war then I must be in it for the "win" not a single battle victory in a series of never ending battles. By the way everyone is hyping it would seem to me we are 1 for 2300 or make that two if you want to include Saddam. Not very good results if you ask me.
I agree eliminating him is better than letting him go.. However, how many more americans need to die before the benefits of eliminating a few outweigh the costs? To me the ROI is getting kinda thin.
quote
Originally posted by Formula88: Come on, Bill, it is a victory. No, it doesn't end terrorism, but it's a substantial win, just like capturing Saddam was, and just like killing Saddam's sons. You know wars are not won in a single battle, and there is a powerful message whenever you take down a high profile leader, even if he's not the only leader.
Given that there were two possible outcomes here, eliminate al-Zarqawi or not, I suggest that eliminating him is preferable to letting him continue unhindered.
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09:56 AM
frontal lobe Member
Posts: 9042 From: brookfield,wisconsin Registered: Dec 1999
I agree eliminating him is better than letting him go.. However, how many more americans need to die before the benefits of eliminating a few outweigh the costs? To me the ROI is getting kinda thin.
Regarding the hype, I can't really say to what degree it is because I don't really watch television. But I agree with you that if there is hype going on, it isn't worthy. Just, whose fault is there about the hype? I thought someone on this thread said that Bush wasn't playing it up. Trying to keep it in perspective.
But for the entire war, there has been hype about incidents, if defining hype is taking it out of its proportion of impact and scale. Recently, the episode where some US soldiers killed about 20 innocents? As I said, since I don't watch television I don't know the details of the incident. If it is real, then it is despicable and should be heavily punished. But now how is it going to be handled. Reported as it is--serious but a rare isolated incident in a long, difficult urban war? Or hyped as an indictment of the entire military? I am just using this as an example of things being hyped. There probably could be hundreds to thousands of examples of things being hyped over the past several years.
So, al-Zarqawi is dead. Good. On to the next troublemakers. But like you said. Regarding hype, al-Zarqawi got the bulk of the attention. What about the others killed in the attack? What about information found and the results of that? Looking at the TOTAL impact of the event would be excellent reporting. But since when do we get excellent reporting about ANY topic? Rarely.
Regarding connecticutFiero stating: "Our soldiers are doing their jobs, and they should be applauded for it, but they are unsure who, why, and what we are fighting."
By and large they know WHAT we are fighting for: an OPPORTUNITY for Iraqi's to establish a different type of government that will be more friendly toward the west, but if not, at least not supportive of instability in the region and not supportive of exporting terrorism to the "west".
The WHY as far as why Iraq, and why now: that is a much more sophisticated and complicated level of decision making with multiple, multiple factors. It is not that it is beyond the intellectual capability of the average soldier. It is that the average soldier at this stage of his life is really not usually thinking in those terms and hasn't spent a lot of time focusing on it and solidifying his/her view on the subject. So most just support whatever the President and military directs them to do at this point in their life.
The WHO: they know WHO they are fighting for in general, which is the average Iraqi citizen. But on the street, individually, they don't know if that person is someone who they are fighting for or against. That makes a very insecure working environment.
Regarding our own government, THEY are having a hard time identifying which actual people they should be working WITH, and who they should be fighting against. That has been one of the biggest difficulties. Abundant mistakes have been made in this area over the years, with significant impact. The problem I have with that, is that many people sit back after the fact (not accusing you in specific, connecticutFiero or 84Bill) and see the mistakes, and then heavily criticize as if the government or US leaders in Iraq should have been able to know.
I most enjoy watching a Charlie Rose type show or a MacNeil/Lehrer type show late at night (about the only time I have a chance to watch anything) and listen to the US military, or US government officials, or Iraqi officials, or middle eastern studies people teaching in the US, and listen to them. They have very intelligent discussions, but even THEY have a hard time figuring out who to work with, who to trust, who has the best interest, etc., etc.
Regarding return-on-investment, this "nation-building" stuff takes a LONG time to happen and to see the results. It is a speculative investment. It could turn out to be a big bust. It could turn out to be a MAJOR benefit for the entire world and a history-changing event in a good way. But those kinds of things take a LONG time to be evaluated.
Example. I'm sure at the time, it seemed like a GREAT idea to support Saddam Hussein in the early 80's. Or at least a reasonable idea. He is fighting Iran, who we had serious problems with at the time. Look at what that decision started and resulted in but OVER DECADES.
I am not at all against looking at a situation and critically analyzing it and constantly assessing it. But it can't be on a day-to-day, ups and downs, hypercritical, constantly second-guessing atmosphere. (again, not saying either of you are doing that). But to me, the al-Zarqawi thing is another of those day-to-day, one piece of the big picture thing, and something to be glad about but not worth the hype in the over-all, long term picture of the thing.
Just discussing with you. Glad you take it in that positive, friendly light.
[This message has been edited by frontal lobe (edited 06-09-2006).]
Originally posted by frontal lobe: Regarding the hype, I can't really say to what degree it is because I don't really watch television. But I agree with you that if there is hype going on, it isn't worthy. Just, whose fault is there about the hype? I thought someone on this thread said that Bush wasn't playing it up. Trying to keep it in perspective.
If that were the case then why did he say that this was a major blow to al-quieda? We all know how al-quieda works. It operates "decentralized" cells performing terroristic acts. So ok... You can say that ONE cell is out of commision. However, it wasn't the entire cell that was killed.. just ONE man and 7 others.
quote
But for the entire war, there has been hype about incidents, if defining hype is taking it out of its proportion of impact and scale. Recently, the episode where some US soldiers killed about 20 innocents? As I said, since I don't watch television I don't know the details of the incident. If it is real, then it is despicable and should be heavily punished. But now how is it going to be handled. Reported as it is--serious but a rare isolated incident in a long, difficult urban war? Or hyped as an indictment of the entire military? I am just using this as an example of things being hyped. There probably could be hundreds to thousands of examples of things being hyped over the past several years.
So, al-Zarqawi is dead. Good. On to the next troublemakers. But like you said. Regarding hype, al-Zarqawi got the bulk of the attention. What about the others killed in the attack? What about information found and the results of that? Looking at the TOTAL impact of the event would be excellent reporting. But since when do we get excellent reporting about ANY topic? Rarely.
Exactly who were they and what was their role in the "network" we may never know. The USG calles them "generals" and "top aids" when the truth is it could have been new recruits getting a blessing. We just don't know. The enemy is VERY large and well camoflaged not to mention decentralized with no real leader. One thing they do share in common is a very strong cause. Kill Americans. This is just sarcasm leaching out of me as usual but the only camoflage our soldiers have is desert sand BDU's and some hype about doing Iraqis good by giving them freedom. Might as well wear a giant red bullseye and scream death to Allah because the enemy could be anyone at anytime anywhere in Iraq.
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11:40 AM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Veitnam had many such victories but that does not win a war. ... To me the ROI is getting kinda thin.
But one difference between Vietnam and the other wars Americans fought in, is that they pretty much had the support of the American people.
Vietnam and the Iraq War, you have plenty of people against the troops. Even in Vietnam the returning troops was spat upon and called baby killers and refused jobs from the leftist of our society.
Same goes for this one. We are only one scandal away from the left doing it again. All it takes is one celebrity leftist to take the lead and all of them will follow.
By having no support from half the American Public can bring down a lot of moral to our troops. While we have the best military in the world, saying they suck and are just a blind puppet sent to die by a bastard President sure doesn't help anything.
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11:50 AM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37848 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Reported that he did not die right away. That when he saw an American he rolled off his gurney in an escape attempt. hehehehe....he had time to know he was gonna die. Two 500 pound bombs ? He must have thought "Abu Musab Ow Ow- Zarqawi" (Jay leno). Hype ? Public beheadings is not hype ? Propaganda has always been a tool of war. Not that a public beheading is propaganda.
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Originally posted by frontal lobe: What about information found and the results of that?
The hype has it that there were 17 immediate missions. 36 more over night.
While I can't help what the "misguided" masses DO to protest a war they don't believe in, I am not one of them even though I don't believe in the Iraq war. In other words I support the troops but I do not support the "order" (that they have no choice but to comply with) that they are given.
Even diring the Civil war there were many detractors living the northern states who protested against the North Same for those in the South. Whever there is a war there are going to be people who do not agree with it. You could start a war to enforce a "Motherhood and Apple pie "adjenda and you will find many Mothers who bake apple pies protesting against it and they will find any means to protest it. Thats just how America is and how it was MEANT to be.
By protesting the war does not mean I or anyone else personaly brought down the moral of the troops, in many cases the moral of the troops is what initiates more protests or for that matter support. I know for a fact that if I were forced into Iraq to fight in a 130 degree sandbox for an idiot doesn't want me there then I'm not going to be very happy. I mean why the hell should I be? Jody is screwing my wife, my job (where I make way more money that my military pay) is being handed to someone else and am looking directly a financial ruin and I have an enemy who I can't see that is trieing to kill me ever god damn day!! Jesus... how much can you expect me to take before Isnap and go looking fo a krack pipe or drink myself into oblivion?
Believe ME! I do care about the troops.. very much so.
quote
Originally posted by Wichita: But one difference between Vietnam and the other wars Americans fought in, is that they pretty much had the support of the American people.
Vietnam and the Iraq War, you have plenty of people against the troops. Even in Vietnam the returning troops was spat upon and called baby killers and refused jobs from the leftist of our society.
Same goes for this one. We are only one scandal away from the left doing it again. All it takes is one celebrity leftist to take the lead and all of them will follow.
By having no support from half the American Public can bring down a lot of moral to our troops. While we have the best military in the world, saying they suck and are just a blind puppet sent to die by a bastard President sure doesn't help anything.
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12:49 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37848 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Ya know, I would have to observe...ummmm.....that Bill does stand up for what we have our troops fight for. Freedom. He has served. This is a nation of sheep and they are lazy and complacent. Call 'em stupid if you want. I did not say it. There is something wrong with us if we can not make our own politicians listen to us.
In response to Wichita. I just want to show that the American people who oppose the war (Wichita would call them "leftists") are far and away in the majority. So apparently the majority of the country are whacko leftists. Not only that, but they also aren't stupid enough to believe that US Soldiers are to blame for the war or that they are committing atrocities en masse. I can even show evidence of this.
WASHINGTON - The latest Associated Press-Ipsos poll found that many Americans perceive the alleged atrocities against Iraqi civilians by U.S. forces as isolated incidents while saying the U.S.-led invasion was a mistake, an unusual disconnect that sets this conflict apart from Vietnam.
The survey of 1,003 adults was completed Wednesday, shortly before the announcement that U.S. airstrikes had killed Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the al-Qaida leader in Iraq, and the Iraqi parliament’s approval of candidates for ministers in charge of the army and police. . . . .
'Biggest mistake was going into Iraq' While the AP poll found that most Americans are willing to give U.S. troops the benefit of the doubt, their misgivings about the war and the prospect of Iraq establishing a stable, democratic government are growing.
Fifty-nine percent said the United States made a mistake in going to war, a new high and a significant jump from the 34 percent in December 2004."
[This message has been edited by connecticutFIERO (edited 06-09-2006).]
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01:12 PM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
An opinion made by some commentator on NPR. I heard the exact same thing.
If al-Zarqawi was a nobody, why in the hell would Colon Powell mention him? They didn't explain that. A two-bit hood doesn't get attention by the State Department unless they impose a serious threat.
Zarqawi met and was personal friends with bin-Laden and he did seek help from Saddams son where they gave aid and comfort to him before the Iraq Liberation took place.
But one difference between Vietnam and the other wars Americans fought in, is that they pretty much had the support of the American people.
Vietnam and the Iraq War, you have plenty of people against the troops. Even in Vietnam the returning troops was spat upon and called baby killers and refused jobs from the leftist of our society.
Same goes for this one. We are only one scandal away from the left doing it again. All it takes is one celebrity leftist to take the lead and all of them will follow.
By having no support from half the American Public can bring down a lot of moral to our troops. While we have the best military in the world, saying they suck and are just a blind puppet sent to die by a bastard President sure doesn't help anything.
You are so ignorant, whichita, I can only conclude you're pretending to be a dumbass deliberately.
One of the key differences between the war in Vietnam and the war in Iraq is the support of the troops. During the Vietnam debacle people didn't differentiate between the troops and the war they fought in. It has been made abundantly clear during the Iraq war that everyone is behind the troops 110% (barring a few bad apples like abu-Graib and Haditha) even though millions of Americans are against the war itself.
Maybe you're still stuck in the 60's but the rest of the country learned a lesson from Vietnam and don't blame the troops for the completely incompetent leadership that is putting them in harm's way.
Again, you are so full of fecal matter not only are your eyes brown, but your hair is extruded feces much like those dolls that grew hair when squeezed.
JazzMan
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01:53 PM
aceman Member
Posts: 4899 From: Brooklyn Center, MN Registered: Feb 2003
While I can't help what the "misguided" masses DO to protest a war they don't believe in, I am not one of them even though I don't believe in the Iraq war. In other words I support the troops but I do not support the "order" (that they have no choice but to comply with) that they are given.
Even diring the Civil war there were many detractors living the northern states who protested against the North Same for those in the South. Whever there is a war there are going to be people who do not agree with it. You could start a war to enforce a "Motherhood and Apple pie "adjenda and you will find many Mothers who bake apple pies protesting against it and they will find any means to protest it. Thats just how America is and how it was MEANT to be.
By protesting the war does not mean I or anyone else personaly brought down the moral of the troops, in many cases the moral of the troops is what initiates more protests or for that matter support. I know for a fact that if I were forced into Iraq to fight in a 130 degree sandbox for an idiot doesn't want me there then I'm not going to be very happy. I mean why the hell should I be? Jody is screwing my wife, my job (where I make way more money that my military pay) is being handed to someone else and am looking directly a financial ruin and I have an enemy who I can't see that is trieing to kill me ever god damn day!! Jesus... how much can you expect me to take before Isnap and go looking fo a krack pipe or drink myself into oblivion?
Believe ME! I do care about the troops.. very much so.
Bill, forgive me, I'm just stirring the pot and making people think upon some of my thoughts....
You support the troops? How?......No......REALLY........How do you support the troops? Did I get a care package from you last year? Did you send me a card of thanks? Did you talk to my family and ensure all was going okay? Did you shovel my walk or rake my leaves? Did you call up your Congressman and say, "Look, we're in this war and we aren't getting out of it. Please eartag more $$$ directly to the troops over there." Or, did you slap a magnet on your car "Support Our Troops"?????
Ask me what I feel about a war protest.....I shake my head and look at the protesters as sheep that don't know the real story, either.
Do I like war? NO! I hate it, but I signed the dotted line and I'll go to do my job.
Y'all seem unaware of our pay...A) In peacetime, I don't complain about my pay. Never have. I get paid well, I think. B) In wartime, I was pulling in $6500/month tax free AND I got a tax refund of $6,000 this past year.
I took all of that for 400 days, Bill. I came home and my marriage was even stronger than when I left. Yes, I have friends suffering with PTSD. Yes, I have friends that came back with permanent injuries. Yes, I lost a family member 6 months ago fighting over there. I have physical and mental scars that you can't fathom. I SIGNED THE DOTTED LINE. SOLDIERS SIGNED THE DOTTED LINE. SOLDIERS DO THIER JOBS.
I wouldn't call em "stupid" even though I say it sometimes.. I not really saying, I'm just .. you know... saying it.
Anyway I would call it more the "easily swayed" or gullible.. BTW, Strangely enough "gullible" isnt even a word. Fact is most people do not want to actually think about anything because they are too busy thinking about their own problems and will accept the opinion of "trusted" source as gospel truth. I don't rely on anyones opinion for the truth, instead I find out the fact for myself by looking everywhere I can for it. It takes alot of time but as a general rule, anything the government says is to be suspected as a lie until proven otherwise.. In other words "ALWAYS question the government." This wasn't my idea but it is the idea that was passed on to me by the founders of this nation.
I'd like to think they would be proud of us but somehow I think they would try like a pack of rabid mad men to kill most of us.
quote
Originally posted by cliffw:
Ya know, I would have to observe...ummmm.....that Bill does stand up for what we have our troops fight for. Freedom. He has served. This is a nation of sheep and they are lazy and complacent. Call 'em stupid if you want. I did not say it. There is something wrong with us if we can not make our own politicians listen to us.
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01:59 PM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
It amazes me that some people are passing this off as a "no biggie" event. What if Hitler had been killed in WW2? This bastard IS and WAS the key player in Al-Queda in Iraq before and during the war (dispite some ignorant fools belief to the contrary). The evidence in not contested, even by the looney left like Pelosi. So why is it being contested here?
This mother ******'s death is a great thing for Iraq, the war on terror just notched a HUGE one on their pistol grip, and it has said very clearly to Bin Laden that his days are numbered.
The positive effect on the Iraqi people's moral I can only guess at but I'd have to say they are dancing in the streets.
It's all good but please, forgive me ace, I'm doing the same.. I swaer!
Thats right, you did your job, came home in one piece, still had your wife and family, and by all appearences better pay, congratulations on your success story..... be thankful, some were not as fortunate as you. It is those "less fortunates" that I am supporting, not you. No slight intended but quite obviously don't need it, you have everything you needed and more than most.. Again, be VERY thankful. I sure as hell am, because I didn't have to go over there.
By comparison to 2300 others, you definatly don't need a thank you from me for doing your job and if you ever asked for one I'd be very unhappy with your request. Never forget you are a servant of this country to do as you were ordered. If I had my way your friends wouldn't be all ****ed up and your realitive would still be alive.
Sometimes it's great and sometimes it really sucks.
I'm VERY glad things are all roses and fileds of daiseys for you... and I do very sincearly mean that. Ever think about your brothers and sisters who havent? I do, daily.
quote
Originally posted by aceman: Bill, forgive me, I'm just stirring the pot and making people think upon some of my thoughts.... Do I like war? NO! I hate it, but I signed the dotted line and I'll go to do my job.
Y'all seem unaware of our pay...A) In peacetime, I don't complain about my pay. Never have. I get paid well, I think. B) In wartime, I was pulling in $6500/month tax free AND I got a tax refund of $6,000 this past year.
I took all of that for 400 days, Bill. I came home and my marriage was even stronger than when I left. Yes, I have friends suffering with PTSD. Yes, I have friends that came back with permanent injuries. Yes, I lost a family member 6 months ago fighting over there. I have physical and mental scars that you can't fathom. I SIGNED THE DOTTED LINE. SOLDIERS SIGNED THE DOTTED LINE. SOLDIERS DO THIER JOBS.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 06-09-2006).]
Be carefully some harsh lyrics.
YAY! 
