I am a member of a group of Safety and Health Professionals that embodies four specific groups, Labor, Business, Education and Government. Recently at one of our meetings a heated debate occurred while discussing whether or not we should purchase certain items. The real issue was should we buy a product made not in the US or buy a similar product (almost identical) from a US source. Dollars and Cents play a huge role in what a Non Profit Organization can do. Obviously the labor folks wanted to buy US goods made by Union labors, the business folks wanted the best price for the product and the educators and Government folks had to make up their own minds. How this came out really doesn't matter but my question is related to how this applies to the illegal workforce. When we eliminate the cheap illegal workforce, doesn't a chance exist that failure to fill those jobs pose a greater opportunity for other countries to easily compete with the higher priced products American workers are getting paid to provide? Thus making the problem even worse. Eliminating the "illegal" workforce might give more Americans an opportunity but when the price of lettuce or any other products currently being worked by that illegal workforce increases 2 or 3 times it's current price, who wins? I am as Pro American as you'll ever find, but I question whether the illegal worker is a problem or providing a labor source that has always and will always be present in the US. I see nothing stopping any American from going out and getting one of these jobs, except that they can normally draw almost as much with our social handouts. There has always been a group at the bottom of the totem pole, the irish, the chinese, blacks, poles, scotts, hispanics, ect....... each group has had it's issues and successes. I'm not suggesting anything in this post, really just searching for answers.

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Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Well, there is that money issue.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 04-04-2006).]

quote Originally posted by MDFierolvr: Hmm.... Roofing comes to mind

You're exactly right. I'm a roofing contractor. Nearly all my work force is Latino. The work is hard/dirty/hot/cold. It also requires that you get your hands dirty. Most Americans are too good for this. I get few applications from Americans. It doesn't matter. I would hire Latinos anyway. Latinos will work 20 hours a day if you'll let them. They are hard workers. They are good natured. THEY DON'T STEAL! They are loyal. Americans, on the other hand, are lazy, spoiled whiners who want more money than they can produce. They have absolutely no loyalty. The get their panties in a wad if they can't put in their 8 hours and go home and sit on their arses. And before anyone says it I don't knowingly hire illegals. Sometimes they have phony documantation. There is no way for me to verify their papers. I don't give a damn anyway for the reasons listed above.

quote Originally posted by larryemory: You're exactly right. I'm a roofing contractor. Nearly all my work force is Latino. The work is hard/dirty/hot/cold. It also requires that you get your hands dirty. Most Americans are too good for this. I get few applications from Americans. It doesn't matter. I would hire Latinos anyway. Latinos will work 20 hours a day if you'll let them. They are hard workers. They are good natured. THEY DON'T STEAL! They are loyal. Americans, on the other hand, are lazy, spoiled whiners who want more money than they can produce. They have absolutely no loyalty. The get their panties in a wad if they can't put in their 8 hours and go home and sit on their arses. And before anyone says it I don't knowingly hire illegals. Sometimes they have phony documentation. There is no way for me to verify their papers. I don't give a damn anyway for the reasons listed above.

Word right there.

Equal opportunity means get your ass in gear if you want that job.

People protecting their way of life loosely translates into we have it easy so don't rock the boat!
Earn your way of life and don't stop others from doing the same.

One thing I have come to understand though is that in some states whites,blacks do work hard and do do whatever is needed to feed the kids what not.
This is not the case here in California I am sad to tell you.

Some one earlier said Employers only hired these people because they could abuse them with out getting into trouble. Thats a crock of crud. They are hired because the job gets done and they are paid very well for a person with limited education. Legality aside if I were given a choice between a white guy and a Mexican I would pay more for the Mexican. I do pay more for them as a matter of fact.
I pay my guys at least 20 percent more than they get elsewhere(abt 12.50 hour for straight labor). For that 20 percent I get twice the profit out of them. I regularly give them a bonus if the day was hard or a lot had to get done and I pushed them a lot.
In my experience the more you pay a white guy out here is the more money you have thrown away.

I profile when I hire and that is all there is to that. That doesn't mean I wouldn't give that chance to anybody. It is just no one out here wants to actually work. Unfortunately that is what I do I work.

So to all the white guys and gals out there that do have a work ethic and kik ass every day I exclude you from my experience. I just can't find many of you. The ones I do find go into business for themselves.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Word right there. Equal opportunity means get your ass in gear if you want that job. People protecting their way of life loosely translates into we have it easy so don't rock the boat! Earn your way of life and don't stop others from doing the same. One thing I have come to understand though is that in some states whites,blacks do work hard and do do whatever is needed to feed the kids what not. This is not the case here in California I am sad to tell you. Some one earlier said Employers only hired these people because they could abuse them with out getting into trouble. Thats a crock of crud. They are hired because the job gets done and they are paid very well for a person with limited education. Legality aside if I were given a choice between a white guy and a Mexican I would pay more for the Mexican. I do pay more for them as a matter of fact. I pay my guys at least 20 percent more than they get elsewhere(abt 12.50 hour for straight labor). For that 20 percent I get twice the profit out of them. I regularly give them a bonus if the day was hard or a lot had to get done and I pushed them a lot. In my experience the more you pay a white guy out here is the more money you have thrown away. I profile when I hire and that is all there is to that. That doesn't mean I wouldn't give that chance to anybody. It is just no one out here wants to actually work. Unfortunately that is what I do I work. So to all the white guys and gals out there that do have a work ethic and kik ass every day I exclude you from my experience. I just can't find many of you. The ones I do find go into business for themselves.

Well said.

Damn, you guys talk like roofing sucks, I always liked it compared to some of the other jobs I had when I was young. The more squares I laid, the more money I made. It beat the hell out of farming, John Stricker, don't be offended. Farming/ranching was back breaking work with little pay though there were significant rewards, those rewards would not pay the bills.

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Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Well, there is that money issue.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 04-04-2006).]

quote Originally posted by blackrams: Damn, you guys talk like roofing sucks, I always liked it.

As did I.
Hard hot work, but you could see the beautiful results at the end.
And all the tar you could chew!

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Bush said in his speech the other day that he wanted a guest worker program (like France's?) so that Mexicans could come into this country and do the jobs that Americans wouldn't, or couldn't, do, and so I was wondering, just what jobs are Americans too good, or to incompetent, to do? Almost anything that requires some physical excertion, or is somewhat lower on the social ladder when it comes to how people view employment nowdays. JazzMan

"wouldn't,or couldn't do"

Most Americans won't do these jobs because they feel they "can't", which means they would be ashamed of what their friends or families might think of them. Most Americans-meaning mostly Caucasions- just can't see themselves doing menial tasks anymore. They (read 'we' for the rest of this paragraph) truely think they are too good to do it. Not all of course, but way way too many. Maybe even the majority. They think they are too educated, too privileged, too 'special', to dig ditches, frame houses, roof homes, wash cars, scrape off dirty dishes, cut grass, sew clothes, sweep floors, do refinery turnarounds, insulation, clean toilets, lay pipe, drill wells, spread asphalt, use a handled shovel, paint houses, run ducting, chase wires, hang drywall, tie steel, stripe highways, do an endless # of farm/agriculture jobs, paint bridges, do general welding, assembly, and a whole host of other things that are absolutely indespensable in keeping the country up and running. Meanwhile, those who will do these jobs are learning the ropes of many vital industries and our whole infrastructure. These are the people who, in the very near future, will be the only ones who really know how to do things from the ground up.

In many cases, the big picture is not visible to any one person. Engineer knows how it was planned to be done or built. Finance guy knows how much it was supposed to cost. Purchasing knows what they think they bought to be installed. Primary contractor thinks he knows where, how, and how many widgets were used. BUT, if you really want the answers to all these questions--go ask the guys that actually held these things in their hands when they put the project together--but better brush up on your Spanish 1st, cause they are the only ones who know the whole picture, and likely as not--they are immigrants. They aren't dumb, stupid, lazy or too proud to do a day's work either. Most are paying payroll taxes, most are abiding by our laws, most truely love the ideals and principles this country was founded on. You know why they are here? Because WE became too uppity, too proud, too lazy, too specialized, and PHYSICALLY UNFIT to do these jobs.

"wouldn't,or couldn't do"

For way too many Americans today, those 2 words mean the same thing. Americans used to be known as a population that could do anything. Not any more. We're too good to do it. If it isn't grand and glorious, we leave it to someone else. They say the meek will inherit the earth, but those we leave these tasks to will inherit at least this part of this hemisphere, and in ? # of generations, we will find we are living in a reverse world, where 'we' will be relegated to those "dirty little jobs", because those who were willing all along to do them, will have worked their way up to the top.

I don't care if they are the most hardworking people in the world they are illegal immigrants and in this country illegally.

But illegality aside, hire them out of the back of your truck, make twice the profit of them. Exploit them. It's all for your benefit anyway. Hell let's let our politicians encourage them to come across the border by promising amnesty and/or "guest worker" programs. Maybe they'll change the laws and allow illegals to vote so we can keep the same crooks in the government.

If you were willing to pay an American a decent wage I'm sure you will find many that will be willing to work for you and be hard working, loyal and honest. Since you are using generalities let me add one. Most of your latino employees live in run down shacks with 25 other people because they cant afford any better. They also don't have any benefits other than a paltry paycheck, something we Americans need and (in some states that require it) must have. Bottom line is you would no sooner "exploit" an American worker as you would an illegal because it just makes good business sense. You are in it to make money and no other reason, the last thing you want to do is give it to someone else.

You can badmouth your fellow citizens all you want about but the fact is we are not nearly as stupid and desperate as your latino employees. I have no doubt in my mind that you live a life far better than those who work for you. And to be honest I'm not happy about your assertion that American workers are lazy and unwilling to work because that is bullshit. We just wont do it for the palty salary you are offering especially when we know you / your company make a disproportionaly greater profit.

Oh and I almost forgot. You mentioned employee loyalty. What about employer loyalty? I would work my ass off for a company that took care of me but not one that will have me working for peanuts for 10 years then cut me loose because times get tough and upper management is not willing to sacrefice it own lifestyle. It's easier to cut a long term employee loose but it's not so easy to take a cut in your annual bonus or paycheck. I can't think of a single CEO willing to give up his mansion and beemer for a cracker box house and a toyota corrola. However us lowlifes.. well who cares in a "right to work state?"

quote Originally posted by larryemory: You're exactly right. I'm a roofing contractor. Nearly all my work force is Latino. The work is hard/dirty/hot/cold. It also requires that you get your hands dirty. Most Americans are too good for this. I get few applications from Americans. It doesn't matter. I would hire Latinos anyway. Latinos will work 20 hours a day if you'll let them. They are hard workers. They are good natured. THEY DON'T STEAL! They are loyal. Americans, on the other hand, are lazy, spoiled whiners who want more money than they can produce. They have absolutely no loyalty. The get their panties in a wad if they can't put in their 8 hours and go home and sit on their arses. And before anyone says it I don't knowingly hire illegals. Sometimes they have phony documantation. There is no way for me to verify their papers. I don't give a damn anyway for the reasons listed above.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 04-05-2006).]

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: So to all the white guys and gals out there that do have a work ethic and kik ass every day I exclude you from my experience. I just can't find many of you. The ones I do find go into business for themselves.

Exactly, I was concidering if it was worth going into buisness for myself or just stay @ $18/hr. I could make a lot more as there are few good concrete flatwork companies in this area that also do stamped and exposed concrete well. I'd have to hang up the concrete pool bowls as that is a 3+ person job, but even better money as there are VERY few here that make it look good without a plaster topcoat.

EDIT: also I know that as soon as the mexicans can work here all conscruction jobs will pay $10 an hour or less, because they then will be jobs americans won't want. My boss didn't want to pay me what he was, but I would have went elsewhere as I know that is an average wage for a skilled finisher and he, in the last 10 years, could only find 1 other guy to stay more than 1 year anyway.

[This message has been edited by cancerkazoo (edited 04-05-2006).]

quote Originally posted by maryjane: For way too many Americans today, those 2 words mean the same thing. Americans used to be known as a population that could do anything. Not any more. We're too good to do it. If it isn't grand and glorious, we leave it to someone else. They say the meek will inherit the earth, but those we leave these tasks to will inherit at least this part of this hemisphere, and in ? # of generations, we will find we are living in a reverse world, where 'we' will be relegated to those "dirty little jobs", because those who were willing all along to do them, will have worked their way up to the top.

Does it really matter WHY Americans (caucasians) won't do it? We can engage in the good 'ole American pasttime of wallowing in the problem, and finding someone to blame (or simply finding the reason why, but not fixing the problem). But that doesn't change the basic fact that Americans won't do it.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Hmmm...if this is typical of American worker's attitude...I think our point has been proven. Bill, companies exist for one reason, and one reason only - to make money. They are NOT there for your benefit and welfare. They have no other obligation to you other than paying you what they agreed to pay you. Excpecting more is a perscription for frustration. Stop expecting some fantasyland idea of what an employer is supposed to be to you, other than a paycheck.

Yes, but an employer exists for one reason - to get paid. So, why should an employer expect any loyalty from an employee? It works both ways. There was a time when both employer and employee had loyalty towards one another and worked together. That is not the case any longer.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Yes, but an employer exists for one reason - to get paid. So, why should an employer expect any loyalty from an employee? It works both ways. There was a time when both employer and employee had loyalty towards one another and worked together. That is not the case any longer.

Agreed. I just think it is unrealistic when some people expect more from the relationship beyond a paycheck.

Boondawg - Portrat Of An American Worker

In school, I found out if you did the bare minimum, you passed with a C -.
In the work place, I learned that the more you did, the more they expected you to do, for the same money.
Going above the call never got you more money, promotions, etc.
When you did the job of 2 men, they kept you in that posistion becouse they got the work of two, while paying for 1.
Backstabbing, asskissing, & fake was how you got up the ladder.
Good men would be passed by, so friends of the boss could get the posistion.
That's when I realized hard work had nothing to do with being treated fairly.
The boss didn't care squat about you or your future.
He wanted one thing.
Cheap Depenability.

And then this ONE thought broke my heart:
If he could, he would work you for free.
If the law permitted it, those in charge would engage in slavery, in the name of profit.
Becouse it isn't about you sharing in the the success or profit of an endevor, it's about filling the pockets at the top, by any means nessisary.

So what does an under-achiever like me do, knowing all this?
Knowing that profits DO NOT flow downhill or gaurantee advancement, or even continued employment.

I settled on dependablity, attitude & personality.
You can depend on me to be there.
And I will do what ever needs to get done.
I put in a few extra hours a week for free.
I pull a little more then my own weight.
And all with a joke and a smile.

It's all I can do.
I would do more, if you would include me in the BENIFITS of the advancement of the company.
"The company makes money, WE ALL make money!"
I would advance the company LIKE A MADMAN!!!!
And fill BOTH our pockets.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: What is with this attitude about profit? You talk about profit as if it is evil. Profit is why people form companies. Disproportional profit? What the heck is that?

Profit is one thing but excess profit is another. What I mean by disproportional profit is when the company buys a new company car then hands it to the CEO (who can afford several new cars on his own salary) but the sales people who drive many miles every day only get 32 cent per mile and must use their own car.

quote Hmmm...if this is typical of American worker's attitude...I think our point has been proven. Bill, companies exist for one reason, and one reason only - to make money. They are NOT there for your benefit and welfare. They have no other obligation to you other than paying you what they agreed to pay you. Excpecting more is a perscription for frustration. Stop expecting some fantasyland idea of what an employer is supposed to be to you, other than a paycheck

How typical of you to skew things to suit your taste. As workers there must be a means to the end and not just the companys end. The company MAKES it's profits on the hard work and sweat of it's employees. The relationship between an employer and the employees is supposed to be symbionic, not slave and master as you (and many companies) would very much like it to be. Given the massive profits and salaries spread out over the corporations, thier leaders (CEO's CFO's etc.) and stock holders it becomes very apparent that only the upper eschalons are making any money while the pions toil for the absolute minimum possible. It's always a game to see how to increase profits vs overhead. But never, I mean never is the money going to decrease at the top. If anything the first to go are the lower employees because the ones left behind will either take up the slack or be replaced for someone who will AND will do it for less.

Face the facts, wages would be even lower if companies had their way because they know without money it's not possible to survive in modern society. We all need to live and when desperate enough we will take anything. All the while those who own or run that large business will always live WAY better lives.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 04-05-2006).]

Speaking of skew...

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: How typical of you to skew things to suit your taste. As workers there must be a means to the end and not just the companys end. The company MAKES it's profits on the hard work and sweat of it's employees. The relationship between an employer and the employees is supposed to be symbionic, not slave and master as you (and many companies) would very much like it to be.

Yes, the company makes its profits on the sweat of the employees. Those who want to sweat for themselves start their own company. Those who do not have the education, ability or motivation work for someone else. This society rewards effort. Some would have all effort and reward be the same for everyone. They are called Socialists.

quote Face the facts, wages would be even lower if companies had their way because they know without money it's not possible to survive in modern society. We all need to live and when desperate enough we will take anything.

The free market keeps things in balance. Pay too little, and lose workers to competition. Pay too much, and the company goes down.

quote All the while those who own or run that large business will always live WAY better lives.

As it should be. The ones who start and run companies are taking all the risk. When a company loses money, or goes under, do the workers have to give back salary? Nope, they just go get another job. With privelage comes responsibilty, and vice versa. You take the risk and hope for reward. Don't want to take the risks? Then do your job, collect your paycheck and be happy about it.

quote Originally posted by blackrams: Damn, you guys talk like roofing sucks, I always liked it compared to some of the other jobs I had when I was young. The more squares I laid, the more money I made. It beat the hell out of farming,

Hmm. That's what I was thinking. I remember (80's, 70's, and 60's) that the majority of roofers were white. Yes, I seen a few blacks, Mexicans, and even some women joining the work force in the 80's. It wasen't until this recent boom in housing that I even noticed the change in who's doing the actual roofing. Heck, I remember in jurior high that roofing, building, and other work involved building a house was concidered "skilled" labor.

As for Americans being some what "lazy" the Seco mining accident comes to mind. That's some hard and dangerous work!

[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 04-05-2006).]

There is no substitute for quality. The only way to get quality is to take care of the people who DO the work. In the peoples Republic of China it's CHEAPER to pay a workers salary than it is here. Take the average Chinese farm worker who may make 10 bucks a week and offer him 100 to work in the big smoke stack factory and VIOLA! Instant cash! Happy employee and everything is great for the company. So companies DUMP American workers for Chinese because they can get the same quality at less than half the price. So now ther bar gets lowered even though the cost of living does not. The company is now making BIG bucks, the CEO is making the BIG bucks, the stock holder are getting dividends and increased stok prices but the American worker is forced to do the same job for WAY way less. It has nothing to do with risk, lazy American workers, their loyalty toward a company or any of the other bullcrap you claim and everything to do with doubling the company bottom line. The attitudes of most large corporations for the last 10 to 15 years has been screw the American worker because they can be replaced with cheaper labor. The is even more true of smaller ones who use ilegal labor. There is no loyalty toward the American worker at all. It's all about the money. Nothing else matters. Faster, cheaper, better.

quote Originally posted by fierobear:

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: How typical of you to skew things to suit your taste. As workers there must be a means to the end and not just the company's end. The company MAKES it's profits on the hard work and sweat of it's employees. The relationship between an employer and the employees is supposed to be symbiotic, not slave and master as you (and many companies) would very much like it to be. Given the massive profits and salaries spread out over the corporations, their leaders (CEO's CFO's etc.) and stock holders it becomes very apparent that only the upper echelons are making any money while the pion's toil for the absolute minimum possible. It's always a game to see how to increase profits vs overhead. But never, I mean never is the money going to decrease at the top. If anything the first to go are the lower employees because the ones left behind will either take up the slack or be replaced for someone who will AND will do it for less. Face the facts, wages would be even lower if companies had their way because they know without money it's not possible to survive in modern society. We all need to live and when desperate enough we will take anything. All the while those who own or run that large business will always live WAY better lives.

Are you under the impression as most union workers are that they own the company? That they deserve the profits?
Your reality is skewed because you only see things through "I'm so poor glasses"
Have you ever tried to start a business? Have ever even managed one? Did you invest your life and your family's lives on a long shot that only held the guarantee that you will have to bust your ass for maybe nothing?
I have always been in business. I have always taken the risks and I have failed and lost many times. I have lost more money than most people have earned. The risks are high and you are going to tell me about symbiotic relationships? WTF. Where are the employees when I have to pay the taxes or the mortgage or for the tools that they don't take care of or the truck they beat the shlt out of because they don't have to pay for it?
Where is your bullshlt symbiotic relationship for me Bill. The damned fact is you have no real idea or feeling what goes on over on the other side of the fence. The best either side can hope for is that both parties are decent people. You expect more than that and you will just end up where you are.

quote Bill knows all "not slave and master as you (and many companies) would very much like it to be

I don't mind saying reading your view is insulting.

May I suggest to all workers out there.
If you want more do more and make yourself worth it.
And keep this in mind I can outwork any worker I have ever had and thats why I am the damn boss!

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: And keep this in mind I can outwork any worker I have ever had and thats why I am the damn boss!

Better hope I never go to work for you. That will become a false statement.

I think someone forgot to take their meds.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: I think someone forgot to take their meds.

I know someone who took their Irony supplements.

LMAO.. that was excellent!

quote Originally posted by fierobear: I know someone who took their Irony supplements.

And there is no employee loyalty to the company in MOST cases. My current hired hand has been with me for almost 14 years now (I think). I would trust him with my life (and have). Out of friendship and gratitude we sent he and his new wife to Las Vegas on their honeymoon and have given as much as $10K annual bonuses. He is a rarity. Before him, I went through 9 employees in less than 7 years and one of those was with me for 5 years (3 years once, quit me, 2 years the second time, quit me again). Most just walked out in the middle of my busiest times. I have always tried to treat my employees fairly and pay them a fair wage with a lot of benefits. I pay 100% of the employee's health insurance and they pay the difference for the family plan (that makes me pay about $130/mo, them $60). I pay for a life insurance program. I pay a share matching his contribution into a retirement fund. I furnish a vehicle and house.

I didn't do this JUST for my current employee, I've done it for all of them that stayed past one year. Most didn't make it that long. Then I get to listen to people like Bill tell me how evil I am because I want to make money. Golly Gee, Excuse the @#$@# out of me.

Don't like the way it's done, grow a set and start your own company and put your money where your mouth is. We're all eagerly awaiting you to show us this wonderful new model of employer/employee cooperation and harmony that makes money hand over fist.

Sorry, not picking on you Formula, but don't be bashing an employer for a lack of loyalty when they don't get any in return from the employee. Look at the stats, people are jumping jobs 3 to 4 times more often than at other times in our history and most of that jumping is voluntary on their part. Somebody makes them a better offer and they jump ship. Fine, if that's the game they want to play, just don't expect much loyalty in return.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Yes, but an employer exists for one reason - to get paid. So, why should an employer expect any loyalty from an employee? It works both ways. There was a time when both employer and employee had loyalty towards one another and worked together. That is not the case any longer.

Excuse me? Did I say Jstricker is evil so don't work for him? NO! I said take care of your employees and they will take care of you. There WAS a time in America where people worked their entire lives in one company. Those days are long gone and it beggs the question why. Since you seem to be so good at reading into things what is your take on it?

And what the hell is with you people anyway? Got a guilty conscious or somehting?

quote Originally posted by jstricker: I didn't do this JUST for my current employee, I've done it for all of them that stayed past one year. Most didn't make it that long. Then I get to listen to people like Bill tell me how evil I am because I want to make money. Golly Gee, Excuse the @#$@# out of me.

It's cool, John. I applaud your efforts. My post was meant in general. There are always exceptions. Sadly, you're generous benefits, etc. and your employee's loyalty is rare these days.

I WANT to work for a company I can be loyal to. I really do. But I'm not going to give loyalty when I get none in return. (and yes, I try to be a hardworking loyal employee until my employer gives me reason not to. I don't make them put up first.)

So I try to make sure I do my job to the best of my ability, but in most cases where I see opportunities to go above and beyond, I don't take them because I know it won't matter. I did at first, and most I ever got was an email "thank you" note. I still work hard and do my job well, I just don't go out of my way to look for extra things to do.

Here's an example of jobs American workers got turned away from once "the Mexicans had arrived."

http://washingtontimes.com/national/20060410-123506-1297r.htm

"An Alabama employment agency that sent 70 laborers and construction workers to job sites in that state in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina says the men were sent home after just two weeks on the job by employers who told them "the Mexicans had arrived" and were willing to work for less. "

"After Katrina, our company had 70 workers on the job the first day, but the companies decided they didn't need them anymore because the Mexicans had arrived," Mrs. Swope said. "I assure you it is not true that Americans don't want to work.
"We had been told that 270 jobs might be available, and we could have filled every one of them with men from this area, most of whom lost their jobs because of the hurricane," she said. "When we told the guys they would not be needed, they actually cried ... and we cried with them. This is a shame."
Mrs. Swope said employment agencies throughout Alabama, Louisiana and Mississippi faced similar problems, when thousands of men from Mexico and several Central and South American countries -- many in crowded buses and trucks -- came into the three states after Katrina, looking for employment and willing to work for less money.
The number of foreign workers who flooded the area after the hurricane has been estimated at more than 30,000. Many of them have been identified by law-enforcement authorities and others as illegal aliens.

" "The men we sent to jobs in Alabama were local fellows looking for work, men who needed jobs," Mrs. Swope said. "After driving 50 miles to the work sites where they had been promised $10 an hour, they discovered the employers had found substitutes who were willing to work for less." "

$10 an hour for construction work, removing toxic waste, etc. And Americans lined up for the jobs, but turned away so illegals could be given the jobs for less. It's not like we're talking even prevailing construction wages.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: If you were willing to pay an American a decent wage I'm sure you will find many that will be willing to work for you and be hard working, loyal and honest.

President Bush just completed a speech in Orange County outlining his thoughts on Immigration. He mentions the unemployment rate being at 4.3 percent as a reason employers can't find Americans to do some jobs. He futher cites this shortage of workers as a reason we need a guest worker program.
Gee, when there is a "shortage" of oil prices go up and we see there really is no shortage

quote Originally posted by cliffw: President Bush just completed a speech in Orange County outlining his thoughts on Immigration. He mentions the unemployment rate being at 4.3 percent as a reason employers can't find Americans to do some jobs. He futher cites this shortage of workers as a reason we need a guest worker program. Gee, when there is a "shortage" of oil prices go up and we see there really is no shortage

There is a point where unemloyment percentage is so low, that it's considered "full employment", meaning everyone that wants to work has a job. I don't remember precicely what that number is (it is NOT zero), but it isn't far from the current 4.3%

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iUsted no puede!

quote Originally posted by larryemory: cheeit! and we wonder why business want to hire illegals. Here's a fellow (not what I want to call him)who checks to see if he can get on the dole before he takes a job-great!

I had a long post writen but its not worth it. Have a good life, lets hope that in 5 years you can still afford to live the way you are now. Lets hope you never need a helping had up. Take care.