quote Originally posted by AndyLPhoto: I have talked to people, and heard people call in to radio shows who were unemployed. They were "holding out" for a position that was within their area of expertise, or that paid enough, but wouldn't even apply for a job that WAS available.

I've heard about that quite a bit myself. Personally, I don't like it. I say do something while you're waiting. And if they're on state/govt aid during that time, myself and every other tax payer has to carry them while they're "holding out".

[This message has been edited by ditch (edited 12-01-2005).]

quote Originally posted by ditch: I've heard about that quite a bit myself. Personally, I don't like it. I say do something while you're waiting. And if they're on state/govt aid during that time, myself and every other tax payer has to carry them while they're "holding out".

I try to find out what unemployment will pay then that is what I start looking at. Most of the time I have been able to find work that meets or exceeds what I would get from the state and some of them even have benefits. Unemployment is there to help, if you need it to keep you from loosing your home then I say use it, but dont sit home complaining you cant find work.

There are no jobs that Americans are unwilling or unable to do. It is just a sad commentary that the question has even been asked because there apparently SOME Americans who think that hard work is too good for them. I've done everything from deliver pizzas to negotiate $800 Million dollar Naval Contracts. I never felt that either job, or anything in between or since, was any less valuable to me at the respective time and place I did them. Work is work and a paycheck is a paycheck. And as long as work needs to be done and someone is willing to "earn" a paycheck, then the machinery of an enlightened society will continue to roll on.

I've worked for McDonalds, delivered Domino's pizza, worked in a bike shop, several warehouses as laborer, inventory control, receiving and shipping, all the while going to school as I could afford to in order to get my degree. Now, because of major structural back problems I can't do manual labor anymore, so if I had to choose between digging ditches and starving I'd have to starve because the alternative would be hospitalization I couldn't afford and possible paralysis.

Yet, I asked this, how did you put it, "sad commentary" because Bush has said on multiple occasions that there are jobs Americans won't do. I disagree. The real reason IMHO that Bush wants this guest worker program is so that a flood of workers who fleeing a desparate and collapsing Mexican economy can come here and work for cheap doing work that previously was done by Americans who were paid more. It's like sending jobs overseas to essentially indentured labor, except that labor is being brought here.

I look at France's recent troubles that top French government officials attribute in large part to their guest worker program that brought foreign low-paid labor in to help rebuild after WWII and wonder, if Bush's guest worker/pseuodo amnesty program is implemented will we have riots and unrest in the future from all these foreigners who, once here, decide to stay?

If Bush didn't keep bringing this up I wouldn't be making this so-called "sad commentary".

JazzMan

Hmmm, presidential fluffer?
Comes with fringe benefiets and a BIG TIP....

My worst job was working for A***** D**** co. We dug holes, ditches and ran pipe under streets for telephone lines. The old fashioned way, with shovels and pickaxes. Hot and dirty. Paid squat.
Still not as bad as farm (stoop) labor.
THATS why the gov't dosn't really want to stop illegals from Mexico and other poor countries from coming here. Not only will they gladly do hard, dirty work, they will do it cheap!
End illegal workers crossing the border, and we'll be paying $5.00 a pound for tomatoes instead of $ 1.29. Gardeners and maids will become unaffordable.
No, I don't have the answer. But at least I understand the problem!
Like so many other issues, the answer is NOT as simple as some people seem to think.

[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 12-03-2005).]

hee hee. i can grow my own tomatoes and i can't afford a gardner or maid anyway!

I wish we would quit hiring those damn illegal mexicans.

The only job that I would not do is "working the fields." Everything else is negotiable.

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Archie's Choptop conversion #11, #15, Redux & # 20

if I didn't have a job
if i needed a Job
I wouldn't knock anything back
if i didn't like it, at least its a job and its money comming in

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Allen
Australia
86 gold SE
85 red SE
01161412119530

quote Originally posted by theogre: Anything that pays Minimum Wage.

This is the area they are taking over. Its more the low paying and hard labor jobs. My father-in-law was trying to hire someone to come rack the pine needles out of his yard ( not an easy task ). He tried many ads ( offering $8.00/hr ) and called these yard and handyman type people ( no offense to anyone on here that is ) but NOONE wanted to come do it. We were at the store talking about it and a mexican guy asked us if we needed yard work done. Long story cut a little short. Him and a buddy came over knocked it out in a day and only wanted the $8.00/hr to split. Father-in-law paid them both full pay.

This is not my first time to have dealing with Mexican labor, but I will say the are harder workers and do a very good job, my only beef is that if we don't do something soon we all will be speaking spanish. I just wish they would use english on the job when dealing with the public, even the Indians that own most of our markets here in this area speak broken english, but atleast they are trying.

I just read a story on the Cessna forum that relates to this. The person who posted it was the one who was there:

quote That reminds of a story. Back in the 80’s I was an aircraft mechanic making about 12 bucks an hour I had a friend named Arly who owned an air conditioning repair service. His company owned a fleet of trucks. Each employee was assigned a truck and they were even allowed to take the vehicles home at night including Arly. So the two of us were going to lunch in downtown Dallas one day in Arly’s clearly commercially marked truck. We stopped at a red light in the left turn lane. There was a younger healthy looking man standing in the median with a “Will work for food sign”. Arly stopped along side the man and says to me, “Watch this!” then he rolled down the window and said to the man, “You will work for food huh?” “Yes sir!” Pointing to the sign on the truck door Arly says, “Great, I need people and I’ve got plenty of work for ya. Jump in the back of the truck. We are going to lunch now so I’ll feed you now, we’ll do some work then I’ll feed you again. If you work out I’ll give you a regular job.” “Uhhh, well I hurt my back real bad and that’s why I am out of work.” “No problem, I have got lots of bench work to do rebuilding compressors and such. You can sit in a nice comfy chair while you work. I pay my shop people $14 an hour” “Uh, I don’t know anything about air conditioning!” “That’s ok, I’ll teach you all you need to know. I need people!” “Uhhh, I have no way to get to and from work” “No problem! I will get you to and from at first and if you work out I provide all my employees trucks just like this one to drive” I could see guys eyes darting back and forth as once again he said , “Uhhhhh…” Then he turned and ran away! I was sitting there slack jawed. Arly rolled the window up laughing his ass off saying, ”Man I love doing that!” So I asked, “Arly, what would you have done if he got in the truck?” “Hell, I would have done exactly what I said, I do need people, you know that!” (He was always trying to recruit me but I liked working on airplanes too much even though he paid better) Now, for all you guardians of hidden meanings out there, I am not indicting all poor people, or all people with back injuries or people from Dallas or any other hidden meaning you may want to attach to this story.

quote Originally posted by wanobi: This is the area they are taking over. Its more the low paying and hard labor jobs. My father-in-law was trying to hire someone to come rack the pine needles out of his yard ( not an easy task ). He tried many ads ( offering $8.00/hr ) and called these yard and handyman type people ( no offense to anyone on here that is ) but NOONE wanted to come do it. We were at the store talking about it and a mexican guy asked us if we needed yard work done. Long story cut a little short. Him and a buddy came over knocked it out in a day and only wanted the $8.00/hr to split. Father-in-law paid them both full pay. This is not my first time to have dealing with Mexican labor, but I will say the are harder workers and do a very good job, my only beef is that if we don't do something soon we all will be speaking spanish. I just wish they would use english on the job when dealing with the public, even the Indians that own most of our markets here in this area speak broken english, but atleast they are trying.

pokeyfiero has been building some fencing and stairs in my back yard. He hires a Mexican or Central American laborer to help him. We pay him $10/hr, or $100 if he does a full 8 hour day. We always feed him a good lunch. This kid (in his early 20s) is not much more than half my size/height, but he works NONSTOP. He does ANY work you tell him to, never complains. Carry concrete down the hill? Dig ditches? No problem, does it, does it right, and asks for more. I have tremendous respect for this kid and his work ethic. I've had similar results with all the laborers we've hired (but Juan is the best, so we keep calling him for work).

OK OK let's ignore the crap from Conn and get back to the topic, which is an interesting one.

Firstly, there are no absolutes so to say there are jobs Americans won't do is inaccurate. however, there is a definite trend in the last 30 years of so away from traditional American jobs. In my father's day men stayed at their corporate jobs for a lifetime. Anyone having more than 3 jobs in a 30 year period was considered "unreliable" or "problematic". Now, I look around my own office and I can name a dozen people who have come and gone in just the last 3 years. Why, because most of them though that Real Estate was an easy way to quick riches and that there was no real effort involved! HAA! Don't even get me started on that rant. The fact that our society has become one where we expect to be given a job, that we don't have to earn it, that employers owe us something instead of us owing them for giving us a living, is a cancer on our society that has metastisized through out the youth of today.

Our popular TV and other media has made everyone feel that they are ENTITLED to a grand lifestyle with crap shows like Beverly Hills 90210 and Melrose Place and now the OC! It's sickening to think that THESE are the iconic roles we set for our kids.

So what's the solution? Beat's me. We should start with the media in my opinion. The fact that so many people lean left in this country despite the catastrophic reality of socialism's failures time and time and time again is terrifying. The burden of carrying this society is increasingly being heaped on the backs of the most industrious and visonary members of our society while the entitlement culture still has a vote. Its down right scarey.

Allowing migrant workers to come to America under a controlled program will buy us time but eventually the children of this generation of hard working latinos will fall victim to the entitlement culture too and THEN where will the workers come from?

The issue of border security and illegal immigration are two different ones as far as I am concerned. They often get blended together. The fact that 95% of our illegal immigrants are mexican shuold be testimony to the fact that our borders (plural) are not as porous as is often said, but that our Southern Border is simply being everwhelmed by shear weight of numbers.

We need REAL reform for the Mexican economy, and we need real social change here at home or we will contnue to have this problem.

It's true that a lot of the immigrant Mexican workers are very hard workers. They really are. But my problem with the illegals and paying them cash is there's no records or taxes. They get paid to do a job tax free, then can take advantage of the social services our tax dollars pay for because they technically have no job.

I really think we have got to get rid of all the illegals. But, we do need a way for those who want to work to have a legal way of coming to the U.S. and working and paying taxes. It works out in the best interest of everyone involved.

There's a big problem with illegal immigrants that isn't talked about much. Come here illegally and have a kid - the kid is automatically a U.S. Citizen because he/she was born here. I think that loophole needs to be closed. I think you should have to be here legally for that to apply. Possibly even restrict automatic citizenship to permanent residents rather than those on temporary work visas.

We had a high end home builder we contracted for wnat to buy our concrete company, our boss asid no. They hired a guy with "15 years experience in flatwork", lol, and a 5 friends from south of the border. Because we didn't take his buyout offer he tried to replace us and give us no more work.

Fast forward 2 years later.....

Tear out 90% of said concrete and replace. Then we were their favored concrete contractor again. The only differance is now we get to them when we have time. They used to be a priority as a big high end home builder, not anymore.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: pokeyfiero has been building some fencing and stairs in my back yard. He hires a Mexican or Central American laborer to help him. We pay him $10/hr, or $100 if he does a full 8 hour day. We always feed him a good lunch. This kid (in his early 20s) is not much more than half my size/height, but he works NONSTOP. He does ANY work you tell him to, never complains. Carry concrete down the hill? Dig ditches? No problem, does it, does it right, and asks for more. I have tremendous respect for this kid and his work ethic. I've had similar results with all the laborers we've hired (but Juan is the best, so we keep calling him for work).

I sure hope Pokey is reporting the laborer's income to the IRS. I assume the laborer is legal, with a real (not counterfeit) Social Security card, and the laborer is a legal resident of the United Stated. If not, then Pokey is breaking a multitude of laws and should be prosecuted, as all criminals should be.

The problem with illegal immigrants (hey, they're not immigrants, they're criminal trespassers from another country!) is that they don't pay income tax, they don't pay Social Security taxes, they don't pay the taxes that are used to fund local public hospitals that render services to illegal trespassers, and worst of all they don't contribute to the US economy because most all of the money they make (illegally) is sent back home to Mexico as remittences instead of being spent in the US economy. After all, the fundamental underpinnings of our economy are from the consumer side, the very side that these criminal trespassers are refusing to contribute to.

Immigration is critical to the success of the United States, and I wholeheartedly support immigration because it brings in fresh blood, diverse social and cultural ideas and viewpoints, and it is fundamental to the whole US gestalt. However, criminal trespass is not immigration. Thousands of criminals trespass into this country every single day, there are millions of criminal trespassers in this country right now, maybe more than ten million. They work for less than minimum wages because as criminals they can't go to the authorities to demand enforcement of minimum wage laws. They also can't demand enforcement of any work safety laws either, and if injured are just deported since they have no standing in this country. In other words, they make perfect workers for those kinds of employers who make this country look bad, that pay for crap and abuse/misuse their employers. Those employers are the only ones who really want to hire illegals.

Another aspect is this: What if only one out of one million illegal criminal trespassers is a terrorist? That means that in the last year alone a dozen terrorists have successfully snuck into this country. Anyone who supports illegal trespassing into this country is supporting terrorism because they are promoting an environment that makes it easy for terrorists to get into America. What do we need to wake up to this problem, a mushroom cloud rising over New York City?

Wake up folks, this isn't just about cheap labor.

Stop the criminals from committing crimes, this is about criminals, not about immigrants.

JazzMan

I agree 100%. Well said, Jazz.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: I agree 100%. Well said, Jazz.

So do I. To me, illegal means illegal. If immigrants don't have to be legal, why the hell do I have to do the speed limit? Why is it OK for a foreigner to sneak across the border, but it's not OK for me to do 80 in a 65 zone?

Truth be told, I have no idea if this guy is legal. We have a bunch of days of work, and pay someone by the day. This is not a full time, permanent job. We don't need anyone full time and permanent. What about all the red tape and government bulls*** involved in that? I looked into hiring someone for my satellite business a few years ago. I couldn't afford it.

The fact is, they are here - especially in California, by the millions. And they are demanding amnesty and services. What other country would tolerate that (besides France)?

quote Originally posted by larryemory: I have news; the wages are not too low-the welfare is too high. That is why we have millions of asswholes sitting on their arses, breeding, doing drugs, and filling the jails. This country is headed down a dead end street unless we understand half the population cannot support the other half.

Having read this entire thread up to this point and eliminating some of the distractors, I find this quote to reflect my feelings the closest. I agree with most of what Larrry stated. Though I have been a roofer, my worst job was shoveling pig crap and washing down the fattening pen floor. I assure you that job stunk. But, it paid the bills I had at the time. Given the option, I would rather not do some of the jobs I did when I was younger, but to keep a roof over my head, feed the family and put gas in my Fieros, I'll do what I have to. (As long as it's legal.)

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Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Well, there is that money issue.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 04-02-2006).]

quote Originally posted by MDFierolvr: Hmm.... Roofing comes to mind

And I roofed for 30+ years.

Interesting fact of the matter, illegal immigrants actualy strengthen the economy. They send most of their wages back to their home countries to support their families, these are called "remittances". Because they are taking money out of the country, it makes the remaining money left in the country "more rare" if you will, raising its value, and increases the value of the dollar in other parts of the world. These immigrants often fill the lower paying jobs that most americans wont do, filling a need.
While there is a problem that sometimes they take some of the decent jobs that we need, the fact of the matter is, most people will sit at home and collect welfare rather than work them. Those same people know the system to the letter and when thier benefits expire, they know exactly how long they have to work before they can get themselves fired or better yet take a volantary layoff and get back on a free ride.
Really if you think about it, if you could sneak into Canada and make $25 an hour picking fruit, would you? Thats essentialy what we are to them, the equvilant of a really high paying job for nothing. Though for most of the educated and skilled workforce, thats not worth it to us, for someone with no marketable skills who is looking at making near minimum wage, thats a god send.
I dont know Ive never been under bid by an immigrant, though its frustrating that all of our software programming is being outsourced to other countries.
I think that is our main problem, the outsourcing of all of our work. There would be more jobs available if it wernt all being done in china. The unitied states has had a trade deficit for how many years straight now? and we just keep sending more jobs overseas. The economy is like a ballon, if we let all the air out while taking little in, its going to deflate. We are a "information" supplier, we sell ideas and technology to the world, but unfortunately thats a limited field that only benefits a few large parties.

Back to the main point, what jobs wont americans do ?
For the large majority, anything that has a higher oppurtunity cost than sitting on their butt collecting welfare.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: I'd like everyone's input in compiling a list of jobs Americans can't or won't do, including reasons. Thoughts? JazzMan

I can only think of one. Border Runner.

quote Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC: Interesting fact of the matter, illegal immigrants actualy strengthen the economy. They send most of their wages back to their home countries to support their families, these are called "remittances". Because they are taking money out of the country, it makes the remaining money left in the country "more rare" if you will, raising its value, and increases the value of the dollar in other parts of the world.

That's an interesting view of economics you have. I don't know many who would agree. You see the problem is our economy isn't based on the collectable value of an unspent dollar. It's based on the number of dollars spent. Jazz was right on the money when he said our economy is consumer driven and consumption based. Spending generates income for the business, who pays it's employees, who in turn spend their money, which generates more business, etc. If you take the money out of the country without spending it, that cycle is immediatley broken and no further benefit is gained.

The only real way for the value of our dollar to increase substantially - such that goods cost less to buy, is for there to be a recession.
The way for our dollar to be valued higher compared to other world currencies is to keep our trade defecit and debt in check. Too much foreign debt weakens the dollar, as does a high trade defecit.

"Spending generates income for the business, who pays it's employees, who in turn spend their money, which generates more business, etc."

Yes, you nailed it. But how you spend alos is a big factor. If Walmart imports a cheaper TV from China and sells it for $20 less than a Zenith (Going back) and the American consumer goes and buys it and Zenith closes their plant and lays off it workers..... IS that China's fault? Or is it the consumer? Maybe people need to step back and analyze their own personal habits if they truly care about American workers, but most would rather point a finger elsewhere than do that.

You want $1.29 / lb tomatoes, guess what. If you are willing to pay $5/lb then we can have an American pick them. But this would require everyone to give up a little for the greater good, and this leans towards that evil word socialism, and when that word is mentioned in this country, watch out....

So, blame the immigrant, the oursourced labor, another country, take your pick, but somewhere corporate greed and a consumer willing to spend a little more of his money to help another American worker cannot be ignored.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: That's an interesting view of economics you have. I don't know many who would agree. You see the problem is our economy isn't based on the collectable value of an unspent dollar.

Thats the collective views of my economics/ busniess communications and world diversity professors at college. The theory is that if you have 100 million US dollars in circulation, your 1 dollar is common, and thus worthless, but should you only have 100 dollars in circulation, that one dollar is rare and people will value it higher as it constitutes a larger portion of the economy. Its the same theories the world currency trade is based on, so the less money in our system the more valuable the money is. Then when that one dollar is "worth" more you can buy more with it, just like you can take 1 US $ and buy ~1.4 canadian, which is exactly why they come here (Mexicans) because our dollars are worth more in comparison to theirs. While remittances do not favor the individual companies, they strenghten the overall US economy.

The problem with outsourcing is epidemic. I for one would gladly spend another $20 or $40 for a zenith, Ive got two of them that are god knows how old. The difficult thing is finding ANYTHING still made in the US, and even then its made with cheap chinese componets. I know one guy I bumped into at lowes who had been all over the entire town looking for a motion sensitive porch light that was made in the US, I doubt he ever found one. Ive worked on and repaired dozens of TVs over the years, usualy the korean ones were brand new, where as the Zenith's were 20 years old and just needed a new capacitor or two. In fact I can think of most of the electronics in my house, and the ones that have been there for a long time are all american brands, 15 yr old microwave, refrigerators (one is 10+ the other ~5), 20 yr old TV's, 10 yr old VCRs, no reason to buy something new, these work just fine and new crap will just break in a year or two. I dont know what my DVD player is, but im guessing american because its lasted 3 years so far :P

I have the cheapest TV I could find at Circuit City 7 years ago, APEX, when they were totally unknown. Still going strong, so blanket statements don't really mean anything. I am sure you could find someone with a a Zenith that didn't last. Not the point.

It's the old chicken and egg argument. Americans seem to value cheaper above all else. Outsourcing, immigrants and cheaper components is what allows that to occur.

Does Demand create supply or the other way around. If China flooded our shelves with something nobody wanted it wouldn't work, but clearly the consumer spoke, somewhere. Yes, now you can't go buy a Zenith, but there was a time when the Chinese model sat next to a Zenith and guess which people chose to save a buck. Hardly China's (or insert balme where you see fit) fault.

We can even make this Fiero related, how many threads have their been here about I can buy X or Y part at Autozone for $1.23 cheaper than the Fiero Store, Rodney, whoever you want to choose. Yes you can, but in 5 years don't cry when Autozone no longer has the parts you need and the Fiero Store is bankrupt. I contend if people thought beyond their immediate need or even this quarter's or year's need, we could solve many of our problems.

[This message has been edited by fullcircle (edited 04-03-2006).]

I pulled this info together for a source or two I have, this simply reflects economic statistics interpreted by economic reporters. Come to your own conclusioins.

"Seal the border. Round up all the illegal immigrants and send them back to their home countries. Start a whole new agency to handle only invited guest workers. Would that open up more jobs for American citizens? This is one of the key questions being posted as the U.S. considers the economics of illegal immigration -- with no easy solutions to the challenges in sight," begins Ron Scherer, The Christian Science Monitor, in an article on the immigration debate crux: jobs impact (http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0330/p01s01-ussc.html). As Congress debates a new immigration bill, some economists believe any restrictions are likely to be disruptive to a variety of industries, from construction to hospitality to agriculture. One challenge in performing any calculations is agreeing on the number of undocumented workers. Only estimates exist, and they range from 9 to 20 million. The conventional estimate is 11 million. But no one knows for sure. By way of contrast, the Bureau of Labor Statistics calculates how many people out of a workforce of 143 million are unemployed., Last month, 7,193,000 or 4.8 percent were out pounding the pavement. The Center for Immigration Studies, which is in favor of some restrictions on immigration, recently issued a report looking at jobs and undocumented workers. One of its conclusions was that between March 2000 and March 2005, only 9 percent of the net increase in jobs for adults went to people born in the U.S. "This is striking because natives accounted for 61 percent of the net increase in the overall size of the 18- to 64-year-old population," writes Steve Camarota, director of research. Howard Hayghe, an economist with the Department of Labor, confirms that this number is correct. But he also points out that by 2005, the economy was doing a better job of producing jobs -- and the percentage of native-born residents finding jobs rose to 41 percent. In other words, the stronger economy absorbed more workers of all educational levels. "The more office buildings you build the more people you need to clean them. The more roads you build, the more workers you need," says Mr. Hayghe. In addition to the 7 million Americans looking for jobs, another 1.5 million are considered to be "marginally attached" -- that is, not actively looking for work. Moreover, some 386,000 are counted as "discouraged" workers. And there are about 19 million, including students and senior citizens, who are not in the workforce.

In the list of jobs immigrants perform that no U.S. citizen wants, sheepherding must rank near the top, writes Evelyn Nieves, The Washington Post, page A2. The 825 or so sheepherders who work the nation's sheep farms -- mostly in California, Texas and Wyoming -- are immigrants here on H-2A visas from Peru, Chile, Bolivia and Mexico, according to the Western Range Association, an industry group. Their lot was supposed to change, at least in California. In 2001, the state legislature passed a law imposing new labor standards for sheepherding. They were to have adequate housing, with toilets, heat and potable water. They were to get graduated raises from $800 to $1,300 a month at present, and they were to get vacation. But in March 2005, a Fresno-based legal group found that little had changed. Chris A. Schneider, executive director of Central California Legal Services, had hope publicity surrounding last year's report (which found that 91 percent of sheepherders' trailers had no toilet) would embarrass the ranchers into complying with the law -- or prompt the state Employment Development Department, which inspects the sheepherders' living quarters, to step up scrutiny. Instead he found sheepherders using shovels to bury their waste. Old water jugs, some lined with mold, provided for their drinking, bathing and cooking water. Trailers were powered by car batteries. "I'm concerned that I don't see any real desire on the part of the agencies supposed to enforce this to carry this out," Schneider said.

There was a time when Jose Luis Luevano could envision making real money -- feeding-the-family, paying-the-rent money -- only in El Norte, or the United States, writes Manuel Roig-Franzia, The Washington Post, page A10. He like the cash he earned when he slipped illegally across the border. But he hated the journey and being away from his family. Then, 6 years ago, someone told him about Cancun, Mexico, the place where President Bush met last week with his Mexican counterpart Vicente Fox. Real money could be found there, too, they said. American money without having to go to the United States. He never went to El Norte again. In Cancun, tens of thousands of Mexican migrants drawn here by the promise of the steady paycheck drive the cabs, serve the tropical drinks and manage the front desks. These workers are simultaneously dependent on the United States, for the tourists who make this place a huge economic engine, and independent from their richer northern neighbor because they don't feel the need to leave their country to make a living. Cancun is one of the few places in the country where there are enough decent paying jobs that few contemplate risking an illegal gambit into the United States. Few get wealthy in Cancun's tourism industry, but the jobs usually provide money for a respectable standard of living in a region where the cost of housing, food and services is low.

The manufacturing sector expanded again in March, but did so at a slower rate, the Institute for Supply Management said today -- evidence of a still strong economy, according to the Associated Press, http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/production/2006-04-03-manufacturing_x.htm). The Institute's manufacturing index was 55.2 last month, compared with 56.7 in February. Readings above 50 indicate the sector is expanding: those below 50 indicate manufacturing activity is shrinking. Economists had projected a reading of 57.7. Meanwhile, construction spending rose to a record level in February, as home building hit an all-time high despite a weakening in home sales, the Department of Commerce said today. Overall construction spending rose to a seasonally adjusted annual rate of $1.185 trillion in February, a gain of 0.8 percent from the January level. That was better than the 0.5 percent increase Wall Street had been expecting, and demonstrated that construction should remain a source of strength for the economy in 2006 as private building of offices, factories and other projects takes up the slack from a cooling housing market.

U.S. consumer sentiment rose in March on strength in the labor market the University of Michigan's final March index of consumer sentiment shows (Reuters, http://money.cnn.com/2006/03/31/news/economy/consumer_sentiment.reut/index.htm). The index read 88.9, up from the final February figure of 86.7 said sources who saw the subscription-only report. The median forecast of Wall Street economists polled by Reuters was 87.0. The survey's index of current conditions rose to 109.1 in March from 105.6 in February. Economists had forecast a 1-6.2 reading. "With energy prices at least roughly flattening out, and with the labor market continuing to strengthen, those are probably two of the main reasons people are starting to get more optimistic," said Patrick Fearon, senior economist at A.G. Edwards & Sons.

Persistent labor shortages at hundreds of Chinese factories have led experts to conclude that the economy is undergoing a profound change that will ripple through the global market for manufactured goods (David Barboza, The New York Times, page 1). The shortage of workers is pushing up wages and swelling the ranks of the country's middle class, and it could make Chinese-made products less of a bargain worldwide. International manufacturers are already talking about moving factories to lower-cost countries like Vietnam. For all the complaints of factory owners, the situation has a silver lining for the members of the world's largest labor force. Economists say the shortages are spurring companies to improve labor conditions and to more aggressively recruit workers with incentives and benefits. Rising wages may also prompt Chinese consumers to start buying more products from other countries, helping to balance the nation's huge trade surpluses.

An accelerating exodus of American-born blacks, coupled with slight declines in birthrates and a slowing influx of Caribbean and African immigrants have produced a decline in New York City's black population for the first time since the draft riots during the Civil War, according to preliminary census estimates. An analysis of the latest figures which show the city with 30,000 fewer black residents in 2004 than in 2000 also revealed stark contrasts in the migration pattern of blacks and whites (Sam Roberts, The New York Times, page 1). While white New Yorkers are still more likely than blacks to leave the city, they are also more likely to relocated to the nearby suburbs (which is where half the whites move) or elsewhere in the Northeast, or to scatter to other cities and retirement communities across the country. Moreover, New York remains a magnet for whites from most other states. In contrast, 7 in 10 black people who are moving leave the region altogether. And, unlike black migrants from Chicago, Philadelphia and Detroit, most of them go to the South, especially to Florida, the Carolinas and Georgia. The rest move to states like California, Ohio, and Illinois and Michigan with large black populations. An analysis of migration from 1995 to 2000 also suggests that many blacks, already struggling with high housing costs in New York City, are being priced out of nearby suburbs, too. Black residents who left the city were more likely to remain in the region if they had higher incomes and were college educated. And while black migrants to the South include some aspiring professionals, a larger share were lower income, less educated and elderly.

Across the U.S., companies are starting to put their money to work again, or at least are planning to do so, writes Mark Whitehouse in "The Outlook" feature of The Wall Street Journal (page A2). "They have enjoyed strong growth and record profits in the past few years, but as they close in on the limits of their capacity, they face a choice: Stop growing or start spending on people, plants and equipment" he continues. Recent data suggest they are choosing the latter. They added 2.1 million jobs in the year ended February, and in a recent survey by Duke University's Fuqua School of Business, more than 300 corporate executives said they plan to increase capital spending by an average 6.5 percent in the coming year -- up from 4.8 percent in September, though still lower than a few years ago. In the past 5 years, though, people and companies in the U.S. have switched roles. Households have been saving less to the point where they now spend more than they earn -- a profligacy that has helped drive huge corporate profits. Meanwhile, companies have been spending a lot less than they earn, building up huge hoards of cash. Now things are changing. Attractive markets for various products have inspired some companies to invest in new capacity. To the extent that companies are willing to put their savings to work, their cash hoards could be a boon for the global economy.

This report is a compendium of excerpts from media reports intended to provide a current look at how economic statistics are covered by reporters. I can not verify the accuracy of the excerpted information. Come to your own conclusions.

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Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Well, there is that money issue.

quote Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC: Thats the collective views of my economics/ busniess communications and world diversity professors at college. The theory is that if you have 100 million US dollars in circulation, your 1 dollar is common, and thus worthless, but should you only have 100 dollars in circulation, that one dollar is rare and people will value it higher as it constitutes a larger portion of the economy. Its the same theories the world currency trade is based on, so the less money in our system the more valuable the money is. Then when that one dollar is "worth" more you can buy more with it, just like you can take 1 US $ and buy ~1.4 canadian, which is exactly why they come here (Mexicans) because our dollars are worth more in comparison to theirs. While remittances do not favor the individual companies, they strenghten the overall US economy.

Uh.... thats wrong. if you adjust the amount of cash flow and the velocity of money without the interest rate and inflation rate adjusting, then you get a cancellation affect where the money is still in the market in the form of monitary exchange for the US dollar. So in reality, you would technically have to get rid of around 50% of the money in circulation to see any real affect. So your theory works, but on a scale that is impossible to achieve. Instead The exchange rates are determined by a weighted basket of goods to calculate the Nominal GDP, or Nominal Gross Domestic Product.

For example, How much would you pay for a cappacino here compared to a cappacino in Italy. Not only is the price difference important, but also the demand and the quality. AKA why it is a wieghted index. So in reality the Real Exchange rate is all objective and is determined solely by the people who control the calculations.

To wrap up. The money leaving our country doesn't hurt or help our economy in any way.

[This message has been edited by MDFierolvr (edited 04-03-2006).]

quote Originally posted by fullcircle: Does Demand create supply or the other way around. If China flooded our shelves with something nobody wanted it wouldn't work, but clearly the consumer spoke, somewhere. Yes, now you can't go buy a Zenith, but there was a time when the Chinese model sat next to a Zenith and guess which people chose to save a buck. Hardly China's (or insert balme where you see fit) fault. We can even make this Fiero related, how many threads have their been here about I can buy X or Y part at Autozone for $1.23 cheaper than the Fiero Store, Rodney, whoever you want to choose. Yes you can, but in 5 years don't cry when Autozone no longer has the parts you need and the Fiero Store is bankrupt. I contend if people thought beyond their immediate need or even this quarter's or year's need, we could solve many of our problems.

It is interesting how people say it's OK to save a buck, but lament the fact that nothing is made in this country, Chinese stuff is cheap, Chinese stuff is crap, corporations are greedy for trying to save a buck, I can't understand why they outsource, etc. Are people really that unable to connect the dots?

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Bush said in his speech the other day that he wanted a guest worker program (like France's?) so that Mexicans could come into this country and do the jobs that Americans wouldn't, or couldn't, do, and so I was wondering, just what jobs are Americans too good, or to incompetent, to do? JazzMan

So does that mean we will have a Mexican President?

[This message has been edited by DeV8er (edited 04-04-2006).]

quote Originally posted by DeV8er: So does that mean we will have a Mexican President?

Hmmm, interesting question. Going back to the orginal question, the presidency is one job I wouldn't want.

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Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Well, there is that money issue.

Some of you who are from Southern California my understand this. When I was trucking and I was in Medina, CA picking up loads for Dole (veggies and fruit) I would see fields upon fields and acre upon acre of Mexicans, most likely illegal, handpicking the crops. I haven't checked to see how much they make but the job has to be tedious and boring and hard and most likely pays very poorly.

The same situation was true for a nursery/vegetable plantation in Florida that I went to to take flowers to Canada.

Pay $2 for your head of lettuce, $12 for your burger at Applebees, etc and then "real" Americans would have the jobs and the Mexicans would not be coming. Americans want simple answers. Make everything cheap, don't tell me how it happens, and everything wrong is because of the OTHER guy - right now the "illegal" immigrant and Middle East terrorists. The Mexican illegal is no more illegal than the guy who hired him but we don't want to go there.

Jazzman,

I have nothing to add. You expressed my sentiments exactly. If we wanted to put a stop to illegal immigration overnight it's very easy, go after the EMPLOYERS of illegal immigrants with great zeal and hammer the crap out of them, legally. The jobs for illegals would go away and, eventually, so would the illegal immigration.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: I sure hope Pokey is reporting the laborer's income to the IRS. I assume the laborer is legal, with a real (not counterfeit) Social Security card, and the laborer is a legal resident of the United Stated. If not, then Pokey is breaking a multitude of laws and should be prosecuted, as all criminals should be. The problem with illegal immigrants (hey, they're not immigrants, they're criminal trespassers from another country!) is that they don't pay income tax, they don't pay Social Security taxes, they don't pay the taxes that are used to fund local public hospitals that render services to illegal trespassers, and worst of all they don't contribute to the US economy because most all of the money they make (illegally) is sent back home to Mexico as remittences instead of being spent in the US economy. After all, the fundamental underpinnings of our economy are from the consumer side, the very side that these criminal trespassers are refusing to contribute to. Immigration is critical to the success of the United States, and I wholeheartedly support immigration because it brings in fresh blood, diverse social and cultural ideas and viewpoints, and it is fundamental to the whole US gestalt. However, criminal trespass is not immigration. Thousands of criminals trespass into this country every single day, there are millions of criminal trespassers in this country right now, maybe more than ten million. They work for less than minimum wages because as criminals they can't go to the authorities to demand enforcement of minimum wage laws. They also can't demand enforcement of any work safety laws either, and if injured are just deported since they have no standing in this country. In other words, they make perfect workers for those kinds of employers who make this country look bad, that pay for crap and abuse/misuse their employers. Those employers are the only ones who really want to hire illegals. Another aspect is this: What if only one out of one million illegal criminal trespassers is a terrorist? That means that in the last year alone a dozen terrorists have successfully snuck into this country. Anyone who supports illegal trespassing into this country is supporting terrorism because they are promoting an environment that makes it easy for terrorists to get into America. What do we need to wake up to this problem, a mushroom cloud rising over New York City? Wake up folks, this isn't just about cheap labor. Stop the criminals from committing crimes, this is about criminals, not about immigrants. JazzMan

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Jazzman, I have nothing to add. You expressed my sentiments exactly. If we wanted to put a stop to illegal immigration overnight it's very easy, go after the EMPLOYERS of illegal immigrants with great zeal and hammer the crap out of them, legally. The jobs for illegals would go away and, eventually, so would the illegal immigration. John Stricker

FYI, the reason I mentioned hiring Mexican workers was a commentary on their work ethic. These guys worked nonstop, tirelesly, and asked for more. I have a boatload of respect for them. I don't know whether they were legal or not, but I sure appreciate their work ethic and determination. We pay them well for manual labor because of that respect. I wonder if I could have gotten the same out of some caucasian guys?

Wow, in this thread I said something that our resident rightwingnuts agreed with? LOL!

I knew we could find common ground if we looked hard enough.

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Wow, in this thread I said something that our resident rightwingnuts agreed with? LOL! I knew we could find common ground if we looked hard enough. JazzMan

Although you won't make many friends by using namecalling, like "rightwingnuts". Or are you unconcerned about polite discussion and mutual respect?

quote Originally posted by MDFierolvr: Uh.... thats wrong. if you adjust the amount of cash flow and the velocity of money without the interest rate and inflation rate adjusting, then you get a cancellation affect where the money is still in the market in the form of monitary exchange for the US dollar. So in reality, you would technically have to get rid of around 50% of the money in circulation to see any real affect. So your theory works, but on a scale that is impossible to achieve. Instead The exchange rates are determined by a weighted basket of goods to calculate the Nominal GDP, or Nominal Gross Domestic Product. For example, How much would you pay for a cappacino here compared to a cappacino in Italy. Not only is the price difference important, but also the demand and the quality. AKA why it is a wieghted index. So in reality the Real Exchange rate is all objective and is determined solely by the people who control the calculations. To wrap up. The money leaving our country doesn't hurt or help our economy in any way.

But what you have to bear in mind is that cost is not linear, while a cappacino in the US may cost 1$ and say the $ to euro is 1:10 , because of specialization in Italy that cappacino may only cost 7 euros, which would make it cheaper to a US buyer, thats the premise of world trade. (I dont think italy uses the euro and I know thats not the exchange rate, I just didnt feel like looking it up right now)

Exchange rates are determined mainly by supply and demand for currency, its not set by any particular body, the global money system is analogistic to the US stock market, more demand = higher prices. Heres a snipped from the first reputable thing that popped up under google, I didnt feel like diging out my economics text and typing out a excerpt
"The Austrian view holds that the exchange rate of a currency like the price of any other good is determined by its relative scarcity in relation to the demand to hold currency. Just like any other good, both supply and demand determine the price, or the exchange rate of a currency. According to Mises the rate between two currencies will tend to equal the ratio of their purchasing power. In other words it is the relative purchasing power that determines the currencies rate of exchange" /Dr Frank Shostak ... a former professor of economics who now works in the private sector (http://www.brookesnews.com/051212exchangerate.html)

Im no economics professior, I dont know more than what Ive been taught, but I know that the world economy is extremely complex and cannot be simplified into such ideas as money out = bad, there are always good and bad concequences(sp) to every transaction.

Really, if money leaving or entering the country didnt effect anything, there would be no world trade, which might be a good thing since we have amassed a national debt in excess of 8 trillion last I heard.

Illegal immigration also helps the economy because we are importing labor into the cycle for very cheap, the ratio of cost to production value of a person make $5 an hour is higher than an american making $9. Im not advocating it though, but It is better for an american to buy from an american based company that while some money goes to another country, the busniesses profits stay local, as opposed to importing a good and paying %100 to an out of country supplier.

I guess some American's wont even rebuild their own cities or houses..

"Thousands of men from Mexico and Central America were driving into the city. Word had spread throughout the Latino immigrant diaspora in America that the city had plenty of work, construction wages had doubled to $16 an hour and no one was asking for papers.

"It was like a Gold Rush," said Oscar Calanche, a Guatemalan immigrant who lived in New Orleans before the storm and returned as soon as the waters receded. "In one car there'd be three up front and three or four in the back, with suitcases and tools on top. It looked like a river of people from our countries."

Latino workers have gutted, roofed and painted houses and hauled away garbage, debris and downed trees. Undocumented workers have installed trailers to house returning evacuees at New Orleans City Park, their pay coming from FEMA subcontractors."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-labor4apr04,0,5618062.story?page=2&coll=la-home-headlines

"The group slept in a park for a month, showered with hoses and used bushes as toilets."

"Some blacks see the thousands of Latino immigrants as usurpers who've come for jobs they once had, now that wages have risen and black workers are displaced."

"There are thousands of blacks that are still out of town who can't get back to town because there's no housing," said Elaine Smiley, an African American, as she oversaw the renovation of her home in the Gentilly neighborhood. "If we had enough of those blacks back here, they could do the work."

quote Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC: Im no economics professior, I dont know more than what Ive been taught, but I know that the world economy is extremely complex and cannot be simplified into such ideas as money out = bad, there are always good and bad concequences(sp) to every transaction.

What I find interesting and perplexing is how the exchange rate is ALWAYS bad for the United States.

If the dollar is up, it's bad for our goods to be sold overseas
If the dollar is down, it's bad for us buying goods from overseas.

In other words, the exchange rate is ALWAYS bad. The news is always bad. Anyone see a pattern here?