just some thoughts
most of the exotics running dual plennums also run duel engine managment therefore they require
dual plennums.
most race engine with very high specific output ie F1 and IRL (?) use one for simplicty.

Personally I dont think they will make much difference on a natually asperated fiero engine BUT
DAMN they are so sexy it would be worth doing it just fot the OMG factor.

This is merely a follow-up to vortecfiero's comment regarding dual plenum manifolds:

quote Originally posted by vortecfiero: Personally I dont think they will make much difference on a natually asperated fiero engine BUT DAMN they are so sexy it would be worth doing it just fot the OMG factor.

Just to clarify matters, and nothing more, if one returns to some of the posts on page 2 of this thread, it appears that toddshotrods wouldn't necessarily disagree with the preceding comment by vortecfiero:

quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: I NEVER CLAIMED TO BE MAKING A PART THAT CAME WITH ANY PERFORMANCE GUARANTEE!!!! * I was asked to make a part that had already been done by other Fiero owners - who were more than satisfied with the results of their work. * I was not asked if I could make a part that guaranteed any dyno-proven horsepower and torque increases. I would have said no. * I am NOT going to make any performance guarantees.

quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: ....I used to be an all-out performance junkie, but now I am a street rodder. Appearance rules, performance is a fringe benefit in my world....

His basic objective here is simply to make a dual plenum manifold that is reasonably affordable. However, as Blacktree noted on page 2 of this thread in regard to building a "one-off," efficacious dual plenum manifold...

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: I don't want to put words in Todd's mouth, but I'm assuming that if you do the math yourself and present that data to Todd, he can probably build it. But it'll be up to you to get the math right.

In turn, Todd agreed with Blacktree's observation in his, the post immediately following Blacktree's on page 2:

quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: Exactly. I enjoy the challenge of building parts to suit the specific needs of the buyer. If we can come to terms on a deal I'll build it.

I think the possibility of a "one-off, customer-designed, dual plenum manifold is an intriguing one, but my guess is we'll first see an example of "the OMG factor" vortecfiero mentioned in the post preceding this one, and that manifold in itself probably will be an eye-grabber!

What he said ^^ That's part of the hold up. I INSIST on a certain quality level and I am having a problem with one my suppliers. The CNC shop is fantastic, but the other shop that has a hand in these intakes (and most of my own parts line plans) must be replaced.

It may not make your 2.8 pump out 250hp, but it'll be a sexy "B"

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I think there will be a gain on the bigger engines such as the 3.1 and 3.4 pushrod as our intakes do not provide enough air for high rpm operation.

Bump. Just wondering how it's going. -Jason

Slow so far, but I am hoping to get a lot done on them over the next couple months. After the full-scale mock-up is finished, it's just a matter of some detail work on the CAD models and the parts can be cut. The issue is not doing the work, it's finding the time to do it; but it will get done eventually...

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bump...

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I have faith in you todd I know that custom work takes time, and I for one would rather you take your time and deliver a better product over rushing a lessor product out.

You can so count me in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Make'em

[This message has been edited by buger (edited 12-03-2007).]

TTT- any progress?

<cricket noises>

...


Hope everything's okay, Todd. Just read your other thread.

oohh! Those look nice! I would want some of em if I keep my 2.8 instead of swapping out for a 5.7 LS6 :P I hope it gets more done in design. if not, I can TRY to learn how to make some out of tubular steel, and some sheet metal in my metal fabrication class. wont be as pretty, but I could probably weld some up as a class project.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: <cricket noises> ... Hope everything's okay, Todd. Just read your other thread.

I think I am finally starting to see a little light at the end of the tunnel, but 2007 has been the most difficult year of my short (43yrs) life - to say the least - but I'm still breathing; still fighting. I am determined to do these intakes and other parts for the community. Hoping to have some things settled and get a lot done in 2008...

Keep checking the threads, I'll be around

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how much for the setup?

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quote Originally posted by nismokidd12: how much for the setup?

Sorry it took me so long to respond :

quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: ...I am trying to do this for $600. That price would include two complete plenums that are fully TIG-welded, with a natural aluminum finish, and include the necessary ports for your vacuum accessories; and the throttle linkage to connect the two throttle bodies...I can't guarantee that price yet, but so far it's working on paper. Are we in the ballpark???

So far so good with picking up the pieces and getting my life in order, and I am DEFINITELY still planning to make these intakes. More to come...

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Bumpity

When desgining an intake there are a few things to consider:

The main section needs to taper toward the end (furthest from the throttle body)
Air will flow into each runner better if there are raised velocity stacks on the "floor".
Example:


Looks like a neat project!

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Nurburgring WARRIOR!!!! I survived the "Green Hell".

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: When desgining an intake there are a few things to consider: The main section needs to taper toward the end (furthest from the throttle body) Air will flow into each runner better if there are raised velocity stacks on the "floor". Example: Looks like a neat project!

Thanks. I have and am considering both of the things you mentioned. It's all about the numbers. How much the average customer wants to pay, and how important those extra few ponies are worth.

Basically just keeping this one floating (bump)...

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quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: When designing an intake there are a few things to consider: The main section needs to taper toward the end (furthest from the throttle body) Air will flow into each runner better if there are raised velocity stacks on the "floor".

I'm not knocking your idea at all, but merely reminding all concerned that a "maximum horsepower" dual plenum manifold has never been the stated objective of toddshotrods. This is discussed in the first three posts on the present page.

Some related math which I myself brought up concerning a "maximum horsepower" dual plenum manifold, as well as toddshotrods comments re same, are covered on page 2 of this thread.

toddshotrods seems receptive to creating a one-off (and justifiably, more expensive) dual plenum intake manifold (again, see page 2 of this thread), but you'll have to provide him the specs for that design.

Another gentleman posting on this page of the thread expressed an interest in maybe fabricating a dual plenum intake manifold as a result of learning acquired in a metal fabrication class:

quote Originally posted by Racing_Master: oohh! Those look nice! I would want some of em if I keep my 2.8 instead of swapping out for a 5.7 LS6 :P I hope it gets more done in design. if not, I can TRY to learn how to make some out of tubular steel, and some sheet metal in my metal fabrication class. wont be as pretty, but I could probably weld some up as a class project.

If you, BV MotorSports, who mentioned the "tapering" issue, or you, Racing_Master, given your metal fabrication interests, would be interested in pursuing such a project further, then the following link regarding a "dual plenum intake manifold kit" may be of interest to both of you: http://jasperintegration.com/intake-kit.html

However, unless I've overlooked something, be aware that "jasper integration.com" apparently does not have a street address or even a telephone number with which to contact them, two things which for me at least, don't inspire confidence.

In any case, my gut instinct tells me that issues of the underlying mathematics of a dual plenum intake manifold aside, this dual plenum intake manifold project is nowhere near as simple as it looks initially. However, I also don't have your skills in metal fabrication, so I definitely don't want to discourage anybody --- especially toddshotrods --- in their efforts here.

I suppose the good news to keep in mind is that an aesthetically pleasing, dual plenum intake manifold already has been created for the pushrod V6 engine, albeit on a custom, one-off basis:

quote Originally posted by goatnipples2002:

That does look nice, doesn't it?

Which is what I am looking for, Looks. I don't really care if this gives me 6 gajillion horsepower ,I want it to look nice and be functional. And as long as it doesn't impede performance, I'm all in. -Jason

No offense taken guys. I'm not easily offended these days! What I suggested are pretty simple additions that will go a long way to improving performance. That may or may not be the whole idea and thats OK too.

i think this looks a lot better



or this

[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 01-14-2008).]

Just FYI, way back on the first page of this thread, on August 18 of 2007, toddshotrods indicated that "round" dual plenums are the initial plan:

quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: Round tube is the only thing on the agenda right now, The square is a thought and possibility for the future but, honestly, any more work on this depends on how well the first version sells.

quote Originally posted by project34: Just FYI, way back on the first page of this thread, on August 18 of 2007, toddshotrods indicated that "round" dual plenums are the initial plan:

If people want square, it would be easy to build a boxed cover to go over top of the rounds...

id be interested if you do the rounds, not a big fan of the squares...

OK - how about this ?

How much harder would it be to make a plastic injection mold of our Fiero intakes? I was thinking if they were plastic they would be nice and light weight they could have thinner/smoother walls for better breathing plus you can paint them any color you want? Then all you have to do is make one mold for each section and the rest is casting them in plastic over and over. I would think you would have to make 4 molds 2 for the top and 2 for the bottom then adhere the pieces together to make a full upper intake and full lower intake then you could bolt them together as usual.

My father made plastic injection molds for a living once but I never really got an idea of how much it would cost both money/time wise. Just a though.

To make the molds you are talking about would involve many tens of thousands of dollars, not to mention needing a fairly large injection molding machine to manufacture them. You would never break even with the low amount of orders this product would create and the parts would be pretty expensive as well because of this.

Plastic injection molding is definitely a volume deal, and way beyond the scope of this type of project. I am not even expecting to break even with the ones I am working on. I knew this was most likely a losing proposition when I started it, but I see in it the opportunity for a great experience; and a way to actively express my appreciation for this community.

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Definitely a nice looking intake (the round ones). Also makes it a lot easier to get to the injectors, fuel rail, etc...Definitely interested.

quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: Plastic injection molding is definitely a volume deal, and way beyond the scope of this type of project. I am not even expecting to break even with the ones I am working on. I knew this was most likely a losing proposition when I started it, but I see in it the opportunity for a great experience; and a way to actively express my appreciation for this community.

I see.. what about employing instead of injection moulds maybe carbon fiber or fiberglass and making some kind of mold so you could reproduce the pieces multiple times. I think somebody here made a fiberglass intake for their swap.

I'm not trying to hijack this thread I've given Todd my fair share of ideas for other projects he has worked on so I thought I'd try here seeing as there is still some interest.

quote Originally posted by The Poopsmith: I see.. what about employing instead of injection moulds maybe carbon fiber or fiberglass and making some kind of mold so you could reproduce the pieces multiple times. I think somebody here made a fiberglass intake for their swap. I'm not trying to hijack this thread I've given Todd my fair share of ideas for other projects he has worked on so I thought I'd try here seeing as there is still some interest.

Gokart and Poopsmith are my uncompensated design consultants All I can say about the Ferrari engine is

As for the carbon fiber or fiberglass, it actually takes more labor than the aluminum; and the life expectancy is quetionable. Someone started a thread in Tech about building a composite intake.

The problem with these intakes isn't the materials or processes. Aluminum is very easy to work with, and the actual machine/welding processes I designed the intakes around are perfectly suited to a low-volume product like this. The only problem is that my life just kind of fell apart right after I started the project, and I am still trying to pick up the pieces and regroup. I just haven't had time to work on anything other than basic survival since last year.

When I get my life sorted out I will finish the design work, have some parts cut, build the welding fixtures, and start cranking out intakes. I'm probably not too far off on having 3D models that are ready for the CNC mill, then I will need to find some free time to fabricate the welding fixtures.

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I've actually been thinking about how hard it would be to make a Carbon Fiber intake for some time now and I mainly wanted to bounce it off of some more knowledgeable persons to see if it looked like a waste of time or not. Although my future plans for keeping my Fiero running on fossil fuels are still conflicting with my desire to become more eco friendly. Thanks for the replies to my questions... because knowledge is power!

something like the Ferrari intake would be sweet but with Fiero engraved

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"willing is not enough, we must do. knowing is not enough we must apply" -Bruce Lee-

Ok - so when can i get a set like this ?

Bump

thats what i plan on doing with an lt5 hopefully

Are the intakes going to be avaliable soon? Any price estimates?

quote Originally posted by mtownfiero: Are the intakes going to be avaliable soon? Any price estimates?

I posted a ballpark price estimate earlier in this thread, and "quoted" it (I think) on this page. If I can maintain the progress I have been making so far this year with my reorganization/rebirth, I would like to have intakes on the shelf and ready for purchase this summer. Keep thy fingers crossed. . .