Since the subject is getting off the line, and 0-60 only, I'd have to say that with a stick shift the torque of the 4.9 would have an edge. The 3800sc is really sweet but I think it's advantage would need a torque converter to allow it to rev up to get an edge.
So, auto maybe 3800sc, stick probably 4.9.
Just my .02
Arn
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01:02 PM
LZeppelin513 Member
Posts: 761 From: Lake Stevens, Washington Registered: Aug 2003
I can say !00% that dollar for dollar the 3800 would eat any 4.9 in any situation, even more so off the line.
Just for reference sake, the 3800 makes plenty of torque, and in most situations more than the 4.9. Even if the 4.9 had a magical manual transmission (my magical I mean one that works on low rpm, high torque motors), the 4.9 stands no chance against the auto on the 3800, the low rpm horsepower of the 3800 eats up the peak hp of most any 4.9. Also the gearing of a 4t65e-hd trans is very well suited for a high torque setup.
The 4.9 donor transmissions are goig to be similar, but you might run into problems if the 4.9 was modded at all.
------------------ [16:58] davepettinelli: mine's got a court-apponted psychiatrist [16:58] davepettinelli: yay girls [16:59] GTPimpin: mine whines alot [16:59] GTPimpin: her name is fiero
I had a bone stock carbed 4.9 with the getrag and my best 0-60 was 5.391 seconds. It would probably be a little slower through a slushbox but a cam and intake might make up for that.
I can say !00% that dollar for dollar the 3800 would eat any 4.9 in any situation, even more so off the line.
I would say 100% your wrong! since you said "any situation"
I had less money in my 4.9 turbo than the 3800 s/c and the 4.9 turbo was 1 second faster in the 1/4 and lifted the frt tires, using the EXACT same transission.
The 3800 s/c with about 10 psi boost did 13.2 in the 1/4 mile The 4.9 turbo with 7-8 psi boost did 12.2 in the 1/4 mile
SO what does that tell you about an engine and boost with the same car and same transmission....hmm.
Please dont get me wrong, I really like the 3800 s/c IMO it is the best swap for the value, but it is not the only swap that HAS performed well.
You can all check out my build thead to see what it cost to build a 4.9 turbo-not that much.
Pete
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02:33 PM
PFF
System Bot
typhoon Member
Posts: 1006 From: The Peoples Republic of Wisconsin Registered: Sep 2005
well there have been 2 people here on the forum that raced , rockcrawls shaker formula and ryans orange 3800sc series 2 rockcrawl had him by about 1 car lenth. im sure there are more people that hjave raced but that was the one i remembered the most. everyone says one is better , well guess what there will always be a faster engine out there . you will never be the fastest
------------------ DONE: 86gt 5 speed 4.9 complete rebuild with buds outback northstar pistons , delta cams E303 cam , full ported , polished , stronger head springs, and flow tested heads and manifolds. rockcrawl's custom chip , polished crank . too much to list
I've always heard that the 4.9 will be better stoplight to stoplight but a 3800sc will keep pulling through 1/4 mile where a 4.9 will run out of gusto. But I would listen to PBJ as he has first hand experience building and running both.
Dan
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04:59 PM
86GT3.4DOHC Member
Posts: 10007 From: Marion Ohio Registered: Apr 2004
Originally posted by PBJ: I would say 100% your wrong! since you said "any situation"
I had less money in my 4.9 turbo than the 3800 s/c and the 4.9 turbo was 1 second faster in the 1/4 and lifted the frt tires, using the EXACT same transission.
The 3800 s/c with about 10 psi boost did 13.2 in the 1/4 mile The 4.9 turbo with 7-8 psi boost did 12.2 in the 1/4 mile
SO what does that tell you about an engine and boost with the same car and same transmission....hmm.
Please dont get me wrong, I really like the 3800 s/c IMO it is the best swap for the value, but it is not the only swap that HAS performed well.
You can all check out my build thead to see what it cost to build a 4.9 turbo-not that much.
Pete
asuming the 3800 and the 4.9 were the same price, swapped in the car, the turbo setup on the 4.9 would cost a considerable amount more than putting a 3.4 pulley on a 3800.
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06:10 PM
JumpStart Member
Posts: 1412 From: Central Florida Registered: Sep 2006
asuming the 3800 and the 4.9 were the same price, swapped in the car, the turbo setup on the 4.9 would cost a considerable amount more than putting a 3.4 pulley on a 3800.
But they're NOT. The 4.9 is considerably cheaper in every junkyard. You can find decent milage ones for a few hundred bucks. How much is the average person going to pay for a decent milage 3800??? Take all that left over money not spent on the engine, buy a junkyard turbo, rebuild it, and you have a good turbo for a few hundred bucks. Custom make some flanges for it, and you're done. It's not that expensive to add a turbo if you know what you're doing.
Quick question too...Have you ever driven, or hell for that matter, ever even ridden in a 4.9 powered Fiero???
Quit being a 3800 Nazi, and accept the fact that each engine has it's ups and downs.
And don't think I'm being a 4.9 Nazi either. With the exception of Rockcrawl and PBJ, I have one of the most modded 4.9's out there. AND there is THE MOST modded 3800 car living is this state as well, and I can tell you this, when that thing is finally tuned, it will eat my car for breakfast. I won't stand a chance.
Now, back to the original question, quickest 0-60 times. On a stock to stock comparison, I would think the 4.9 would win...BUT, hardly. Only reason being the 4.9 has a retarded amount of low end torque. Beyond 60mph, again stock to stock, the 3800 will leave the 4.9 in it's dust.
Eric
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10:36 PM
Mar 20th, 2007
LZeppelin513 Member
Posts: 761 From: Lake Stevens, Washington Registered: Aug 2003
Originally posted by Racingman24: AND there is THE MOST modded 3800 car living is this state as well, and I can tell you this, when that thing is finally tuned, it will eat my car for breakfast. I won't stand a chance.
Youre living in Kansas now? haha. PR is gonna get PwNd by X.
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01:19 AM
Mr. Pat Member
Posts: 1860 From: Melbourne, VIC Australia Registered: Apr 2003
I have a SBC Fiero,so heres an unbiased opinion. Ive driven a 4.9 Fiero, and been given a ride in a sc3800. Both were as stock as you can get them. The 3800 felt a LOT faster......you gotta remember a stock 3800 will be a high 13, low low low 14 second car. A good run in a stock 4.9 might get you a high 14......and of course the 4.9 swap is cheaper. Thats why people do it. Its a great alternative to the stock V6, but unless you're MTA you wont have a supercar beater with the 4.9 without extensive mods.....skip the BS and get a SBC;-)...kidding guys.....not really.
------------------ 1986 GT, LT1/4T60E. In the middle of cam/port, new interior, paint and waiting on new wheels. Itll blow you away!! http://hometown.aol.com/ptfiero/index.html build http://dtcc.cz28.com/Customer/LT1Fiero/index.htm
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09:13 AM
Racingman24 Member
Posts: 2304 From: Land of 10,000 Idiots Registered: Apr 2003
you gotta remember a stock 3800 will be a high 13, low low low 14 second car.
Also, you have to take into consideration the driver. One of my best friends has a bone stock 97 GTP, other than having the U-bend deleted (which you dont have on a fiero anyway), and a tune that he did himself, and it ran 13.20 @ 101 mph. This was done with a perfect launch, and perfect traction, on a perfect weather day. We have discussed his car on ClubGP and have decided that his engine is a factory freak for sure. Imagine his powertrain in a Fiero, and you have a 12 second car, bone stock.
The first time i took my car to the track back in the day it went 13.55 @ 99.1 mph. This was with stock pulley, but had ported heads and headers and such, but come to find out later, my knock sensors werent hooked up right and i was only getting 2 degrees of total timing.
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03:25 PM
Mar 21st, 2007
LZeppelin513 Member
Posts: 761 From: Lake Stevens, Washington Registered: Aug 2003
How much can you spend? if you can fork out a little extra cash go for the 3800. I promice you you wont be dissapointed. the problem with swaps is once you get it done, you'll want to go faster. trust me. And the problem with the 4.9 is the aftermarket is almost non existant. But the 3800 aftermarket is getting bigger by the day. Look at all the fastest cars on the list. they're kicking the sh1t out of everyone. yeah the 4.9 has gobs of tq, but so does the 6. It just has better all around performance.
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04:29 PM
fieroX Member
Posts: 5234 From: wichita, Ks Registered: Oct 2001
3800 with a pulley and (easiness easiness easiness) Will destroy a 4.9. 4.9 run out of breath around 5k unless you do some serious camming and other stuff. Who cares if it's V8 I'd rather swap a 600 HP 4G63 than an 8 cyclinder any day.
If you want the 4.9 you're going to have to work it to get it to lay down any power. That's rediculas considering that the motor is designed that poorly. The 3800S2 will put down just as much torque stock and more than 60 HP and its 1.1 liters smaller. Why?! Boost. If you want to force induct the 4.9 it's going to cost just as much as the 3800S2 would have cost to install. With the 3800 all you have to do is buy a pulley and computer to make well over 300 HP.... It's easy power.
Did I go that way..no. I'm building a 3.4 DOHC and I know that I'll one day have to spend thousands of dollars on turbo's and tunning to make it scream like a 3800. But bang for your buck the 3800 will destroy a 4.9 period.. I've ridden in both there's no comparison. I'm not trying to hate, but like someone said before: The 4.9 is a great alternative to the 2.8, but it doesn't stand up to the 3800.
My mechanic has a 3800 with only a chip, intake, and pulley and it would stand a chance against his 2004 GTO and his GTO isn't tame.
My 6 cents
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04:52 PM
PFF
System Bot
Mr. Pat Member
Posts: 1860 From: Melbourne, VIC Australia Registered: Apr 2003
Who cares if it's V8 I'd rather swap a 600 HP 4G63 than an 8 cyclinder any day.........If you want the 4.9 you're going to have to work it to get it to lay down any power. That's rediculas considering that the motor is designed that poorly.........
My 6 cents
Emc209i-Please this is not a personal bash towards you.
Turn on your speakers, and since it is a v8 you can use a sub woofer too. 4.9 turbo with a $0.00 turbo
Don't be afraid to watch the video a few times, I am sure the corvette guys have seen enough of the video.
And again if the 4.9 is designed so poorly why does a 3800 s/c at 10 psi boost do 13.2 in the 1/4... and the 4.9 at 8 psi boost do 12.2 in the 1/4 ??????? Please don't tell me the 3800 was not running well because it does run very with the rest on the fiero 1/4 mile list. Also (again) the poorly designed 4.9 NEVER had a mechanical break down with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of 1/4 mile runs.
Pete
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05:35 PM
typhoon Member
Posts: 1006 From: The Peoples Republic of Wisconsin Registered: Sep 2005
Thanks for asking. Bone stock. Rockcrawl chip (disabled VATS, adusted for tire size)
Hardly "high 14's". I don't claim it's a world beater, and the Finale is NOT a light version of the Fiero. Our car has every option and is not stripped at all.
Dyno Sheet:
Rear wheel numbers, not corrected for temperature, barometer, or humidity, and it was a HOT day. Look at the air intake temperature. Now compare that to our 3.4 that we had in the car prior. This was with underdrive pulleys, sprint headers, bumped the fuel just a tad, and 1.6 rockers:
That's a gain for the 4.9 of 80 ft/lbs of torque at 1100 less rpm and that wasn't the highest torque because we had to wait to sample until the converter locked up to get an accurate reading.
I have nothing against the 3800 sc. I own one and it's in my Riviera. It would make a great swap, but I really don't understand the people that DON'T own 4.9, DON'T have any experience with them, and don't really want to have any hating them so much. That's a mystery to me. I'm also curious as to why, if they are so wonderful, does it seem EVERYBODY immediately puts a smaller pulley on them, modifies the computer, and starts to look for more power? Did I fall asleep and suddenly those things became FREE?
To refresh everyone's memory, the original question was:
quote
So what is quicker off the line to 60, a slightly built 4.9 or a 3800 sc??
I don't see the original poster asking about smaller pullies or computer work to the 3800sc, do you?
If you WANT to make modifications and go for more power, then the 4.9 is not the way to go. It was never the way to go for that. If you want to run low to mid 14's, run to nearly 150 mph, have a V8 rumble, be stone reliable, and still get 30 mpg when you keep it at or below the speed limits, then it's definitely an option to consider.
As to the SBC option, that was a question that was not asked. I've done one, I don't intend to do another. I don't care for them in a Fiero. That's MY preference. I'd think about a 3800 sc, but honestly the Northstar has more appeal to me. After all, a 3800 sc isn't exactly high tech..........
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC:
how about some numbers here?
Hasnt anyone timed theirs?
I know my 01 L67 / 4T64E-HD ran a best 13.64@99.6 mph mostly stock
Dunno 0-60, but 1st gear pretty much gets you there, however long that takes.
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07:17 PM
Fieroseverywhere Member
Posts: 4242 From: Gresham, Oregon USA Registered: Mar 2006
Fact is the SC3800 needs boost to keep up with the 4.9. Without it there is no chance. We're comparing apples to oranges here. If you boost a 4.9 the SC3800 doesn't stand a chance without serious modding. Keep in mind the 3800 weighs more than a 4.9. It may produce more HP but that is only because it is supercharged. You are comparing two very different motors. If all you want is a good 0-60 time then get a V8. Still no replacement for displacement. I just don't understand the flame war. Build the car for its intended use. Then drive it til you cant anymore. Either way you have a car faster than most on the road. The choice is yours.
Now after all this where are those times? I only saw one person post a 0-60 time on this whole thread. Lets answer the question asked.
[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 03-21-2007).]
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07:17 PM
Capt Fiero Member
Posts: 7657 From: British Columbia, Canada Registered: Feb 2000
We have at our house, an 86SE with a Carbed SBC, an 85GT with an injected 4.9, an 88GT with a stock 2.8, and an 86SE with a stock 2.8 and a 4spd. I rode around in a 3.8SC auto car, a turbo 2.8 ya know what. This is what the dyno numbers don't show. The off idle under 2000rpms power of the 4.9 make it the best daily driver out of the bunch. Starting from 900 rpms or lower, you can simply stand on the gas and instantly there is power. No other Fiero have I ever been in with comparable swap costs even comes close to the low end power and daily drivability of my 4.9 not even the SBC. Don't get me wrong, a well setup SBC or 3800SC will outrun the 4.9 on the track. However for daily drivability the 4.9 is the motor I chose to put in my car. If you have never driven a 4.9 and only go by the dyno numbers from 3000 on up. Ya don't even need to respond. There is a reason this motor is a popular swap into the Fiero, I guess it just pisses some people off that others prefer a a V8 over a supercharged V6.
------------------ 85GT 5spd ,93 Eldorado 4.9 Dual O2 Custom Chip, Archie Clutch. Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything 245/50/16's Not Your Average 4.9 Capt Fiero Com --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Stock.
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08:01 PM
Fieroseverywhere Member
Posts: 4242 From: Gresham, Oregon USA Registered: Mar 2006
Hardly "high 14's". I don't claim it's a world beater, and the Finale is NOT a light version of the Fiero. Our car has every option and is not stripped at all.
If you WANT to make modifications and go for more power, then the 4.9 is not the way to go. It was never the way to go for that. If you want to run low to mid 14's, run to nearly 150 mph, have a V8 rumble, be stone reliable, and still get 30 mpg when you keep it at or below the speed limits, then it's definitely an option to consider.
The high 14's is probably referring to my car which actually ran low 15s because it was not tuned at all. Properly tuned most 4.9s are going to be low to mid 14s.
But as Jstricker points out, if modding engines is what you want then the 4.9 is not for you. Out of the box it's a great upgrade from the 2.8. The 3800SC is a great motor too, but it really is an apples and oranges comparison.
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08:12 PM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
Fact is, NOBODY has posted any 0-60 times. Why? Because unless you have a GTech (and those aren't 100% accurate, but much better than a stop watch) nobody knows. I posted my 1/4 mi timeslip with dyno sheets and 86GT3.4DOHC posted his time and speed (which sounds reasonable to me) while admitting he also didn't know his 0-60 times. I am curious, though, what "mostly stock" means. If "mostly stock" means just a pulley change, then that's not stock anymore. As it is, he runs about 8/10 faster than my car and I can pretty much bet my car is heavier. Like him, 1st gear will get you to 60 mph in the 4.9 and you have to watch for tirespin.
My 4.9 is 100% just like it left GM Stock with about 90,000 miles on it. All emissions and everything else functioning, no SES light, no codes set. I suspect the swap I helped Dan with in his car is stronger than mine since we did a fresh O/H on his motor at the time of install and even tight, it felt very strong to me.
If I was worried about it, a little 50 hp shot of nitrous on my Finale would more than likely smoke a BONE STOCK 3800 sc, based on 86 GT's times. It would have to come in late, though, because give it another 75 ft/lbs at the bottom end and it will all go up in tire smoke.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere:
^^^^ very well put ^^^^
Fact is the SC3800 needs boost to keep up with the 4.9. Without it there is no chance. We're comparing apples to oranges here. If you boost a 4.9 the SC3800 doesn't stand a chance without serious modding. Keep in mind the 3800 weighs more than a 4.9. It may produce more HP but that is only because it is supercharged. You are comparing two very different motors. If all you want is a good 0-60 time then get a V8. Still no replacement for displacement. I just don't understand the flame war. Build the car for its intended use. Then drive it til you cant anymore. Either way you have a car faster than most on the road. The choice is yours.
Now after all this where are those times? I only saw one person post a 0-60 time on this whole thread. Lets answer the question asked.
I know I do.
