quote Originally posted by Mr. Pat: with my LT1 I have no traction issues. In fact I cant light them up, it just hunkers down and goes. I can spin them, but it wont sit there and roast them.

Ditto, I dont even waterbox at the track with the 3.8SC Just take it to 2000 and launch, just a "squeak-squeak" and its gone. Theres no actual slippage to be felt, just goes. I can still do smokey doughnuts if you try, but if you want to launch, theres no problem sticking. Thats with whatever cheapie tires that came on the car, in a 215 size I believe.

I've built a 3800 with a small pulley and a mightily modded 4.9. Both engines run strong. But it's a different feel. The 3800 has a more refined power that will light 'em up easily but the power seems to build as you rev. The modded 4.9 is just balls to the walls all-out torque. In fact, my very heavily modded 4.9 (dynoed at 234hp and 304tq at the wheels) doesn't get abused very often because Getrags are expensive and rare and I really don't want to break anything. I don't remember feeling that way in the 3800. The 3800 makes you want to go chase turbo Supras, the 4.9 makes you feel like you don't have to try.

These are just MY impressions from the two cars I've had. And yes, my 4.9 will rev to 7000 and not complain. I liked both cars, but I prefer my 4.9 just because of the way it makes me feel when I drive. That, to me, is what a sports car is all about.

-Rick

quote Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC: Ditto, I dont even waterbox at the track with the 3.8SC Just take it to 2000 and launch, just a "squeak-squeak" and its gone. Theres no actual slippage to be felt, just goes. I can still do smokey doughnuts if you try, but if you want to launch, theres no problem sticking. Thats with whatever cheapie tires that came on the car, in a 215 size I believe.

I have the same thing with my 4.9, if I try to do a burnout (in the water box) I end up just lifting the front tires off the ground. Best burnout's I get are 2-3 feet of 2 patches. last 60' (which is a good reference point for 0-50) is 1.69 (My jetting was backwards ie jetted for 100 shot but the fuel jet was in the n20 line and n20 in the fuel line so I was rich as a pig and only getting approx 35 hp n20 shot))

I'm running Kumho 711 17" with a 2.97 final Drive 4T60E

Scott

[This message has been edited by linenoise (edited 04-02-2007).]

quote Originally posted by GT: I liked both cars, but I prefer my 4.9 just because of the way it makes me feel when I drive. That, to me, is what a sports car is all about. -Rick

Some people live and die by the 1/4 mile times and the 4.9 doesn't look that strong, but it feels a whole lot faster because of the ridiculous amount of torque. It will really push you back in the seat and make you feel like you are going faster than you really are.

Ride out the LOLsRoyce for this thread. 4.9 will kick a 2.8s ass. Go from a 2.8 to a 4.9 and you'll love. Until a month later when all you have is still that basic 4.9

Go from a 2.8 to a 3800 and you'll love it. A month later when you're bored of the power, drop pulley size, get some rockers, maybe swap a cam, intercooler perhaps? How much power do you really want? Either engine is better than stock, they're both cheap in stock form. The 3800 looks better in the engine bay, and its not a dead end. Someone show me a dyno of 'the ridiculous amount of torque" a 4.9 makes, please. I'm curious to know how much more my 3800sc puts out.

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: . Someone show me a dyno of 'the ridiculous amount of torque" a 4.9 makes, please.

Ridiculous is a relative term...

I keep telling you that the 4.9 is not a "numbers" engine. The 3800SC looks much better on paper. Fortunately we don't drive the paper.

I knew I'd find this. I did this 0-60 before changing plugs and wires. Performance improved noticeably afterwards, but this was still good for a 6 second run.
http://videos.streetfire.ne...7d6-9907010ffd88.htm

I've owned both a 4.9 swapped fiero and a few l67' swaps now. I liked the 4.9, but it was eclipsed by the L67. I found myself passing up the 4.9 car everytime I went for a cruise. I ended up selling the motor off last year. It pulled nicely from a stop but it peters out quickly, like many have already said. The L67 pulls hard all the way through, especially with a few basic mods pulley/rockers were such an improvement. I really think a 4.9 is a great budget swap just to replace a bad motor, and really not the performance swap some people want it to be.

I personally thought the swap sounded great also, and would recommend it to anyone who wants a quick nice sounding and cheap swap.

How many dyno numbers do I have to post of a stock 4.9? Let's see your chart of your 3800 making over 230 ft/lbs at 3300 rpm.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: Ride out the LOLsRoyce for this thread. 4.9 will kick a 2.8s ass. Go from a 2.8 to a 4.9 and you'll love. Until a month later when all you have is still that basic 4.9 Go from a 2.8 to a 3800 and you'll love it. A month later when you're bored of the power, drop pulley size, get some rockers, maybe swap a cam, intercooler perhaps? How much power do you really want? Either engine is better than stock, they're both cheap in stock form. The 3800 looks better in the engine bay, and its not a dead end. Someone show me a dyno of 'the ridiculous amount of torque" a 4.9 makes, please. I'm curious to know how much more my 3800sc puts out.

Hmm, got one of each sitting in the garage, both are bone stock, guess I'll have to get someone to come over and take'em out for a 0-60 spin. Obviously, I can't drive both at one time. But my seat of the pants feeling is that the 4.9 is slightly faster in the 0-60 category, past that the 3800SC takes over. I'm not a fan of straight line acceleration contests so I could care less which one is faster in the quarter mile. No offense intended to those that like to drag race, just not my thing to do. I autoX my 4.9 when I can, it handles better than the 3800SC car, both are Formulas but the 4.9 has an advantage in braking and tires so it's not really a fair comparision. Can't really say why but the 4.9 gets significantly more miles put on it over the 3800SC. Both are sitting there ready to roll but for some reason I seem to gravitate to the 4.9 most of the time.
Traction issues? Neither has an issue in this category.
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Ron
Land of the Free because of the Brave. Most gave some, some gave all. Some ran the other way.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 04-06-2007).]

quote Originally posted by jstricker: How many dyno numbers do I have to post of a stock 4.9? Let's see your chart of your 3800 making over 230 ft/lbs at 3300 rpm. John Stricker

I'll have a better one for ya the 21st when i head back with more timing and corrected fuel

EDIT, In case you're unsure, the tq is on the right, and thats over 280ft/lbs at 3300.

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 04-06-2007).]

i just took my N* out for a spin and with a nice easy launch (2.3 second 60') it did 0-60mph in 4.7 seconds. i know it's not a 4.9 or a 3800sc but i'm pretty happy right now so i thought i'd post it.

[This message has been edited by Zac88GT (edited 04-06-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Zac88GT: i just took my N* out for a spin and with a nice easy launch (2.3 second 60') it did 0-60mph in 4.7 seconds. i know it's not a 4.9 or a 3800sc but i'm pretty happy right now so i thought i'd post it.

Well, I am impressed but I would honestly expect the N* to perform well in straight line acceleration. Thanks for posting.

I've always wanted to see one of these N* powered Fieros auto X. Thought I was going to get to see it at Wheat Stock but Kevin was in a "customer" car and didn't want to push it. I'm pretty sure the car would still push through the corners as most Fieros do but I'd love to drive one through the solomn course just to find out for myself.

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Ron
Land of the Free because of the Brave. Most gave some, some gave all. Some ran the other way.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 04-06-2007).]

It's your lucky day cause i'm HUGE into slalom racing. if you are pateint enough to wait through the summer i'll be taking and posting videos of all the autox's i do.

quote Originally posted by blackrams: Well, I am impressed but I would honestly expect the N* to perform well in straight line acceleration. Thanks for posting. I've always wanted to see one of these N* powered Fieros auto X. Thought I was going to get to see it at Wheat Stock but Kevin was in a "customer" car and didn't want to push it. I'm pretty sure the car would still push through the corners as most Fieros do but I'd love to drive one through the solomn course just to find out for myself.

The Northstar is a big heavy motor. I'm not so sure a Northstar would be a good auto x car.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: The Northstar is a big heavy motor. I'm not so sure a Northstar would be a good auto x car.

I think it's going to make a great autox motor. I've been racing the last 2 years with a carbed 4.9L and that worked awesome, I can't even notice the extra weight of the northstar, it's got a little less bottom end torque but tons more top end and now i can spin it up to 6700 instead of 5500. Plus with my new victoracer tires it's going to be an interesting season.

[This message has been edited by Zac88GT (edited 04-06-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: EDIT, In case you're unsure, the tq is on the right, and thats over 280ft/lbs at 3300.

And that's not stock, either. If it was you wouldn't need to take it to get "more timing and corrected fuel". The chart I posted is a bone stock, 100K+ mile 4.9 that the dyno couldn't even read maximum torque because we had to wait for it to shift into 3rd to start sampling. If we sampled sooner than that, the car would downshift and invalidate the readings.

If it had been a stick shift you'd have seen a lot more torque than that. Notice where the maximum torque on the motor is at on my table, the first sample taken. Cadillac rated the engine at 275 ft/lbs @ 3,000 rpm, and with the automatic we couldn't sample there, so the maximum torque is never shown.

As I've said (repeatedly), I don't dislike the 3800SC. I own one. I like it a lot. It's just that some here have this unjustified superiority complex just because they have a pushrod V6 with a huffer. I was also just answering your question. You said:

quote Someone show me a dyno of 'the ridiculous amount of torque" a 4.9 makes, please

I had posted the dyno table on my bone stock motor almost 3 weeks ago and you apparently didn't care enough to even look through the thread.

John Stricker

another off topic here but i just went out and launched it a little harder and got the N* down to 4.181 sec 0-60mph. Then it started overheating , gotta find out whats wrong.

quote Originally posted by Zac88GT: another off topic here but i just went out and launched it a little harder and got the N* down to 4.181 sec 0-60mph. Then it started overheating , gotta find out whats wrong.

How are you timing? I'd love to see what I'm getting 0-60 with these 1.69 sixty foots. (i'll do the smokemup g force calc later have some errands to do)

quote Originally posted by jscott1: The Northstar is a big heavy motor. I'm not so sure a Northstar would be a good auto x car.

I'm not either, but I'd still like to give it a shot. I feel pretty confident it'll push even more than my 4.9, my 3800SC, the 3.4 push rod. But the heavier and more powerful motor would be fun to test. If it makes the car handle anything like the SBC Fieros I've seen and ridden in, then it's not a good auto X option.

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Ron
Land of the Free because of the Brave. Most gave some, some gave all. Some ran the other way.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: How many dyno numbers do I have to post of a stock 4.9? Let's see your chart of your 3800 making over 230 ft/lbs at 3300 rpm. John Stricker

A low revving motor that blows all it's load way down low is impressive if you have a diesel pick up, not the charectaristic everyon is looking for in a sports/muscle car.

So what's your point? The 4.9L will rev to 5500 rpm. That's not DOHC territory by any means, but IIRC isn't that what the stock 2.8 "sports car" engine runs to (at least that's where the rev limiter shuts the race car down at), but it's certainly a heck of a lot more revs than the diesels run, even the 2 stroke Detroits. I'll take you for a ride in a couple if you'd like proof.

Nobody, especially me, ever claimed that the 4.9L was the be all and end all "sports/muscle car" motor. In the Fiero, it is great fun to drive. Stock, it feels (and looks in pictures) that on a good launch we are *ALMOST* lifting the right front tire. Yes, it runs out of breath over 5,000 rpm, that's why it's only running in the low 90's mph at the strip. But you don't need to rev it to 5,000 rpm on every shift to make it fun to drive, and every start from the traffic light isn't a quarter mile launch. It's smooth, reliable, torquey, plenty of performance to keep one interested, and inexpensive to swap. Our car will run very near 150 mph, the slip shows a low 14 second quarter, and if kept at or under speed limits, gets 30 mpg. To get it ready to take to Omaha for the WOW show we got it out, cleaned it, gave it it's annual oil change, and drove it the 600 mile round trip never missing a beat.

What any of this has to do with a truck diesel is beyond me.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: A low revving motor that blows all it's load way down low is impressive if you have a diesel pick up, not the charectaristic everyon is looking for in a sports/muscle car.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Nobody, especially me, ever claimed that the 4.9L was the be all and end all "sports/muscle car" motor. In the Fiero, it is great fun to drive. ... It's smooth, reliable, torquey, plenty of performance to keep one interested, and inexpensive to swap. Our car will run very near 150 mph, the slip shows a low 14 second quarter, and if kept at or under speed limits, gets 30 mpg. ... John Stricker

The above quote should be posted at the top of every 4.9 thread... It's not the be all and end all engine, but for what it is, it's a fun motor to swap into a Fiero.

quote Originally posted by linenoise: How are you timing? I'd love to see what I'm getting 0-60 with these 1.69 sixty foots. (i'll do the smokemup g force calc later have some errands to do)

I'm using a G-Tech Pro RR to do the 0-60 timing

Maybe this is more appropriate. I have a hard time comparing your dyno, it's hard to picture exactly how steep that angle of intersection of the torque curves it is at 4100 rpm. Do you have a more conventional version?

quote Originally posted by jstricker: What any of this has to do with a truck diesel is beyond me. John Stricker

1, exaggeration to make a demonstration. I prefer a more flat torque band, and in fact even find the L67 to be less then totally desireable for street duty. I think the torque put out by a well tuned stock L67 is enough to make traction an issue to the point that the torque is wasted. 2. I'm talking out of my ass, and I do appreciate you not jumping on me for it. I haven't looked at your dyno to compare the curve , and there's nor way to translate that into real world experience short of seat time. At any rate, I think the HF 3.6 is going to be the ultimate set up, as the hp and torque # are going to rival Northstars with less weight.

L67's are tractor motors, dude.

[This message has been edited by WhiteDevil88 (edited 04-06-2007).]

If what you are looking for is a reliable street car then the 4.9 will give you everything you are looking for. If you want to race it go with a different motor. Plus the 4.9 weighs less and makes your fiero handle better in the corners then a 3800.

To answer the question.. 0-60, I would bet on the 4.9 anyday. Any faster then that and the SC3800 takes it. Plain and simple.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 04-06-2007).]

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: Maybe this is more appropriate. I have a hard time comparing your dyno, it's hard to picture exactly how steep that angle of intersection of the torque curves it is at 4100 rpm. Do you have a more conventional version?

You like flat torque curves?

I don't remember who's motor this is, but how does 250 ft/lbs at 1,750 rpm sound? Link (at the engine)

This is my graph and mine is at the wheels. Link 2

John Stricker

Many engines can be modified to go fast. An all out 3800SC in a much heavier Grand Prix (Zoomers at ZZ performance) hit the 9's in the 1/4 mile That engine just has so much aftermarket potential. I'd bet money that no one will ever hit the 9's or 10's with a 4.9L. I look at the 4.9L as a curiosity. It's was designed to be a low RPM high torque Cadillac cruising engine. Rebuild parts are extremely expensive and hard to find, the engine does not rebuild easily, the bottom end is not especially strong, the head has small valves and is restrictive and it's difficult to get it to rev and make power at the top end. On the other hand the 3800SC was designed ground up as a high performance engine. Atermarket HP parts are abundant and you can make more horsepower for far less than with the 4.9L.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds -Best
Engine Controls, ECM goodies, Chip
re-programming & odd electronics stuff

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: . I'd bet money that no one will ever hit the 9's or 10's with a 4.9L.

I can't imagine why anyone would try...

The 4.9 in it's bone stock form is an inexpensive upgrade to the stock Fiero motors, period. Trying to dress it up into a drag motor is like putting perfume on a pig, it might smell nice but it's still a pig.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: I can't imagine why anyone would try... The 4.9 in it's bone stock form is an inexpensive upgrade to the stock Fiero motors, period. Trying to dress it up into a drag motor is like putting perfume on a pig, it might smell nice but it's still a pig.

Yeah but pigs are so tasty!

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1986 GT, LT1/4T60E. In the middle of cam/port, new interior, paint and waiting on new wheels. Itll blow you away!!
http://hometown.aol.com/ptfiero/index.html
build
http://dtcc.cz28.com/Customer/LT1Fiero/index.htm

This thread is such a reminder of how you can not view Pennock's fiero forum for weeks and months and still come back and read pretty much the same thing.

Pete

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quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Rebuild parts are extremely expensive and hard to find, the engine does not rebuild easily, the bottom end is not especially strong, the head has small valves and is restrictive and it's difficult to get it to rev and make power at the top end.

I'm not sure where you got that information. The only special tool you need is the plate over the cylinders to hold the liners in place and it cost me less than $30 to make mine. Fiero Dan's car, which had a full O/H, cost about $600 in parts IIRC. The bottom end is no weaker than a 2 bolt SBC and the engine itself is much lighter.

The original post was about 0-60 times. That's what I'm addressing and you don't need 8,000 rpm to do that with a 4.9 V8

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by PBJ: This thread is such a reminder of how you can not view Pennock's fiero forum for weeks and months and still come back and read pretty much the same thing. Pete

True, but maybe only when it comes to 4.9 threads. Every one of them starts and ends the same. Someone asks an innocent question about 4.9 performance, and when those that know the answer speak up, the 4.9 haters come out the woodwork and talk about how the 4.9 is junk.

All I can say is that if someone offered to swap my 4.9 for a 3800SC for free I would say no thank-you.

I believe that most people posting here are just stating their engine preference. Its not about knocking the 4.9L caddy engine. If you like that engine that's fine. It certainly can be a low cost upgrade for the anemic 2.8L . If 0-60 is all you care about the 4.9 will probably do it for you. But if you want to join the heavy hitters you'' find the 3800SC is in a totally different league.
Except for a few Fieros, you'll hardly ever see anyone at the track drag racing a 4.9L. You do see lots of guys racing the 3800SC in several makes of cars. Again if the only thing you care about is the 0-60 time, I can see one being happy with that engine.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds -Best
Engine Controls, ECM goodies, Chip
re-programming & odd electronics stuff

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: you'll hardly ever see anyone at the track drag racing a 4.9L. You do see lots of guys racing the 3800SC in several makes of cars.

Believe it or not, there are people that don't drag race their cars... I've been driving for decades and never once been to the drag strip. I couldn't care less about 1/4 mile times.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Believe it or not, there are people that don't drag race their cars... I've been driving for decades and never once been to the drag strip. I couldn't care less about 1/4 mile times.

Then there are ppl that have had the 4.9 swapped in for years and havent driven it over 1500 miles. Wonder who that person is, I think its the same guy that had a choptop that has been in paint for over a year now. I cant remember that guys name but he is from the Houston area and also has a 88 GT on some 20's that gets pulled over by the cops out of a line of 10 Fieros at the yearly events.

I have stopped putting anything into these Threads being like others have said, they all end up the same. I havent ridden in a 4.9 yet because that one guy hasnt brought it to another event that I was at but just maybe one day. I can say I do love my modded 3800/auto, I love it so much that when I finished my 5 speed stock 3800, it was slow to me so I sold it. I built up my auto 3800 to take to the track and throw down some times but in over a year that it has been done, its only been to the track once. Just dont have the time to go all the time but being it gets driven daily, it makes the swap well worth it. I am planning my next swap now but it will not be a 3800 or a 4.9 but it will have plenty of HP/Torque in the end.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Believe it or not, there are people that don't drag race their cars... I've been driving for decades and never once been to the drag strip. I couldn't care less about 1/4 mile times.

Said it many times in the past. It doesn't take the same driver skills to go 1/4 of a mile down a straight line as it does to take a car at the edge of the envelope in to multiple left and right hand turns then into a 180. Sorry guys but it's a whole different set of skills. It also takes a wholely different power train. Thus, the 4.9 does have a wonderful use. As I've said before, there is a 3800SCII sitting right next to the 4.9 in my garage, I chose to run the 4.9 the vast majority of the time. Say what you will. Most folks are defending a choice they have made based on a number of different variables but, they are still defending what they have. I have both and love driving both but, it all depends on what I'm planning on doing as to what vehicle I take. They all have good points.

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Ron
Land of the Free because of the Brave. Most gave some, some gave all. Some ran the other way.

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Again if the only thing you care about is the 0-60 time, I can see one being happy with that engine.

This is very true with most people. I have the 4.9 that John Stricker Overhauled and installed and am way happy with it and it's performance. I don't intend to ever drag race it I could careless about 1/4 mile times or who's engines better. Heck I've been wanting to do a build thread but have been reluctant to do so due to the flame wars that always erupt.

Dan

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: Then there are ppl that have had the 4.9 swapped in for years and havent driven it over 1500 miles. Wonder who that person is, I think its the same guy that had a choptop that has been in paint for over a year now. I cant remember that guys name but he is from the Houston area and also has a 88 GT on some 20's that gets pulled over by the cops out of a line of 10 Fieros at the yearly events.

LOL - Touche'

My 4.9 will be on the road this summer even if I have to drag it around on the trailer in primer. I promise I'll toss you the keys and you can evaluate it's "fun factor" compared to other motors. It may not be the "drag queen" that the 3800sc is, but it's plenty enough for me, in this car anyway.

If I were building a drag car, the 4.9 would be my last choice, and it probably wouldn't be a Fiero...I'd be building an F-body with a turbocharged LSx