So I have a daily driver fiero that's been pretty dependable after the kinks got worked out, and a project/"fun" fiero to work on. I put fun in quotations because it will be fun eventually, after everything is fixed and working properly. So I was browsing the various fiero shops and PFF classifieds and vendor things to see what I wanted to get for my car. Kind of the, "oh, that would be nice," or, "this would go well with the style I'm trying to get." The "one day I'll get all this stuff" visions of how it would all look put together. It had been a while since I had put actual $$ numbers to all of this, so I decided to add it all up.

I was in for a bit of a shock when all the little touches ("stainless steel instead of regular? only the best for my car", etc) added up to over $12,000, and that was just the off-the-shelf-prices-readily-available stuff! I haven't yet calculated all the custom, one-off, special-order kinds of things yet. That brought me crashing down to earth pretty quickly. And I'm not even talking about al lot of high performance stuff (although there's a few here and there), most of it is replacing stock parts with new like-stock or slight upgrades. Brakes, suspension, cooling, electrics, engine (substitute a swap here if you are so inclined), transmission, etc etc etc. Boy does it add up fast!

I know that having a nice custom ride is going to cost money. This isn't a complaint or rant. Instead, I have a couple questions. For those that have moved beyond the "just trying to keep the car running" phase and are into the enthusiast "show n go" stage, either "keep it stock or a little better" or the "all-out custom" approach, what order did you do your modifications? I'd like to get them all done at once, but realistically that won't happen, and will end up being over a number of years. This is a hobby after all, and not the primary focus of my cash. Did you do parts of all of them (for example upgrade the brake lines but leave the rotors alone until later), or did you go system-by-system (for example doing all the brake-related stuff, then all the electrical, etc)? Hindsight being 20/20, would you do things differently now that you're either partially or fully completed with your car? (of course, are you ever really done with your car? )

Keith

A quick category/price rundown, wonder how close I am to anyone else?

Brakes: $1400 (stainless lines, mild upgrades)
Electrical: $700 (a lot of new sensors and connectors)
Cooling: $400 (new hoses, pipes, pump, etc)
Transmission: $1300 (new cables for getrag, flywheel, clutch, shift kit, etc)
Engine: $4000 (almost complete upgrade/rebuild, in prep for boost, substitute your engine swap of choice here)
Fuel and Air: $700 (stainless lines, new pump, etc)
Ignition: $150 (new parts)
Interior: $600 (seats, carpet)
Exhaust: $800 (stainless)
Suspension: $1500 (springs, shocks, struts, adjustable swaybars)

Puts me at $12,000ish, and there's still exterior mods, interior mods, forced induction, any audio/video, etc etc. Of course at the end of it I should have a better-than-new car, but it will take a while. Anyone care to share their mod/parts list breakdown? Where was money well spent, and where would you have rather saved some $$ and went with cheaper alternatives?

Inquiring minds want to know

Your actually probably a little low. I know the getrag will cost more then that. I did the same thing a while back and ended up with a number like 20,000 before and body mods. Came to be about 37,000 complete. Decided to just keep it simple. Now I'm working on a 85GT (200 dollars), lowering springs front, coilovers rear, new KYB, and poly (500), 11.25 brakes (500), 4.9 with rebuild (1200), and paint (600 diy). This is with doing all the work myself and having access to a shop with all the tools I need. Fieros aren't the most cost effective hobby, but they sure are rewarding. I'm sure you will find a good compromise or just pick away at it for a while. Either way will work.

Do a little bit every year, just figure out what you need or want the most and do that first. I've been working on my car for over 6 years now and I still have stuff I want to do to it. You can see a list of most of what I have done to mine here http://www.diyfiero.com/for...=view_vehicle&CID=42 and it still looks fairly stock, but I have almost $16,000 into it, not including the purchase price of the car.

My prices are all on the low side, since I couldn't find prices for everything when I did the list. There's a lot of "$??" on my sheet, which scare me Seeing the $$'s really gives you a greater appreciation for how much time, effort, and $$ people put into their rides. Compromise/prioritize, hmm... that's going to be tough! Thanks, guys

I always calculate the price of things before I get my hopes up so far im sitting at 2,000

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"A mobile home with a flat tire, is just a home."
"If some one ask if your ticklish it doesn't matter if you say yes or no, they're still going to touch you. That's why when they ask you say something like, I have diarria! but yes I am very ticklish"
How fast does a zebra have to run before it looks gray?"

Here's the way I would look at it...

Calculate all the stock prices to replace all those same parts with original equipment. Total it.

Compare that to the total price of your choices of upgraded parts...

If I had to bet, the upgrade price will be less that 20% more than the stock/OEM replacement price for the whole lot.

Yeah, you're doing a lot of work, replacing a lot of parts, but if a stock manifold (for example) is going to cost me $100, but I can get an upgraded manifold for $120, it'll be worth it in the long run.

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Patrick W. Heinske -- LZeitgeist@aol.com
1988 Red Fiero Formula Convertible
*Desktop Photo Here* (click either link for pics)

Just thing of it this way. Its tough to find a decent new car for less then 25,000. So what ever you spend on your fiero will still be less in the long run. Plus you will get the experiance of building it your self. That alone is worth every dime you put it. Then you can say "I built this car for me" and to me that worth its weight in gold.

i think you're Very smart to think things through Before you start spending. if you're not careful, you'll be through a lot of cash quickly. I'd figure out the total you want to spend, then look around and find out what other cars you could get for the same money - you might be surprised. In the Los Angeles area, you have the choice of a Lot of nice cars, especially as you climb in price. What is your finished fiero gonna give you ? Gas mileage and power aren't real considerations anymore - you can get a newer car with double the horsepower that will give you the same gas mileage a fiero gets. Unless you get an engine swap, but then you're still in a 20 year old 2 seater. And a newer car will have airbags and newer features.

i think it all boils down to personal preference and what you like. But when you start pushing $15k to $20k, I think you can do a lot better getting a newer car (at least around here) ....

[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 05-09-2007).]

yup...piles up quick, dont it....
I started with motor, and am working outwards
basic suspension needs to be near the front of the list - loose rear ends are scary

Bought the car for about $2500, and did the basic fluid changes and tuneup.
First minor change was to put in some new speakers and a cheap CD/head unit, the cones had desintigrated on the originals so I figured anything had to be better than those LOL. Got new black carpet and a new set of floormats.

First major thing done to the car was suspension/brakes, just seems like the logical place to start to me. Basic suspension stuff, poly (including cradle bushings and dogbone), suspension tech springs, a couple of ball joints, etc. I'd call it a mildly upgraded suspension. The brakes are stock, just new rotors, front calipers, and pads all the way around. Flushed the system real good and buttoned it back up. Stripped the stock wheels and painted the center a gloss black and threw some Dunlop SP8000's on them. I had the shop that did the alignment check for any problems and they said everything looked good that I had not replaced so I figure I'm done with the suspension for a while. I'm sure in the future I will be replaceing other ball joints, tie rod ends, etc, as time and funds allow but for now everything is up to code. With the tires I think I ended up spending around $1500 - $1600.

Second major project was a comfort thing! A/C was refreshed replaceing hoses and heater core for good measure. Even with replaceing the compressor, accumulator, seals, hoses in the engine bay, etc, it came in at around $700 - $800.

Third major project was the drivetrain, I had big plans for that but as usual things rarely go as planned. I opted for a refresh of the existing motor/trans with the help of some of the guys here on the Forum. I replaced all of the sensors, cat back exhaust (stock replacement), motor/trans mounts, injectors, etc, etc. Think I ended up at a little over $1800 on that.

There are a lot of things I would like to do to the car, I think like you mentioned, they are never "really" finished. I kept up with some of the parts and costs on mine, not a complete list but I think it's most of the big stuff. I haven't added everythng up but figure including the original purchase price I have maybe a little over $7000 in the car. The only labor cost was the alignment.

Here's what I do have a record of, I'm sure some of this stuff can be had cheaper.
New Parts:
52370 1 84-88 THERMOSTAT $9.95 -- $9.95
51408 1 85-88 V6 FAN SWITCH $44.95 -- $44.95
52463 1 84-88 OXYGEN SENSOR $35.12 -- $35.12
52461 1 85-88 COOLANT TEMP SENSOR $21.52 -- $21.52
52460 1 85-88 V6 AIR CHARGE TEMP SENSOR $29.95 -- $29.95
51438 1 GROUND STRAP $4.95 -- $4.95
66628 1 84-85 TEMP GAUGE SENDING UNIT $22.95 -- $22.95
51401 1 85-87 OIL PRESSURE SENDING UNIT $44.95 -- $44.95
51403 1 85-88 V6 OIL PRESSURE SNDING TUBE $34.95 -- $34.95
52387 1 A/C COMPRESSOR BELT $7.95 -- $7.95
52386 1 85-88 V6 WATER PUMP/ALT BLT $12.99 -- $12.99
52315 1 85-87 V6 COOLANT HOSE KIT $45.95 -- $45.95
09651 1 BOSCH SPARK PLUG WIRE SET $28.88 -- $28.88
2771 6 NGK UR5 SPARK PLUGS $1.85 -- $11.10
D314A 1 AC DELCO DISTRIBUTOR CAP $10.00 -- $10.00
D446 1 AC DELCO DISTRIBUTOR ROTOR $4.01 -- $4.01
A925C 1 AC DELCO AIR FILTER $5.45 -- 5.45
70822 1 FELPRO GASKETS OIL DRAIN PLUG 0.43 -- 0.43
70672 1 FELPRO OIL FILTER 0.66 -- 0.66
54401 1 85-87 V6 PERFORMANCE HEADPIPE $39.95 -- $39.95
66450 4 85-88 CROSSOVER PIPE TO MANIFOLD BOLT $3.50 -- $14.00
54501 2 84-88 EXHAUST BOLT AND SPRING $6.95 -- $13.90
52797 1 87-88 V6 EXHAUST FLANGE GASKET $10.69 -- $10.69
77355A 1 85-88 V6 STOCK EXHAUST SYSTEM W/O TIPS $199.95 $199.95
CCA-1414-12 1 COMPCAMS 1.6 STEEL ROLLER ROCKERS $135.69 -- $135.69
ES72857 1 FELPRO HEAD BOLT SET $29.99 -- $29.99
MPR-342 12 MELLING PUSHROD $1.29 -- $15.48
JB-2095 12 MELLING HYDRAULIC LIFTERS $4.99 -- $59.88
VLVE JOB 2 RECONDITIONED HEAD $107.00 -- $214.00
10734 1 FELPRO HEAD GASKET SET $14.82 -- $14.82
47772 1 FELPRO INTAKE MANIFOLD GASKET SET $24.19 -- $24.19
52740 1 FELPRO VALVE COVER GASKET SET $17.01 -- $17.01
52736 1 FELPRO EXHAUST MANIFOLD GASKET SET $23.95 -- $23.95
67565 1 FELPRO DISTRIBUTOR O RING SEAL $1.95 -- $1.95
88100 1 85-88 EXHAUST MANIFOLD STUD KIT $14.95 -- $14.95
51404 1 84-88 TEMPERATURE GAUGE SENDING UNIT $33.17 -- $33.17
52910 1 FRONT TRANSMISSION MOUNT $21.95 -- $21.95
52920 1 REAR TRANSMISSION MOUNT $24.95 -- $24.95
52799 1 85-88 V6 ULTIMATE DOG BONE $49.95 -- $49.95
52900 1 FRONT ENGINE MOUNT $32.95 -- $32.95
60561 2 84-87 REAR CRADLE BOLT $3.95 -- $7.90
57519 1 84-88 FRONT ENGINE CRADLE BOLT SET $9.95 -- $9.95
PTP-7-2034 1 PROTHANE FULL BUSHING KIT $76.99 -- $76.99
PTP-7-502 1 PROTHANE CRADLE MOUNT KIT $34.99 -- $34.99
ZX811872T 1 SUSP TECH FRONT LOWERING SPRNGS $83.99 -- $83.99
ZX811873A 1 SUSP TECH REAR LOWERING SPRNGS $83.99 -- $83.99
184188S 1 CARDONE FRONT BRAKE CALIPER $19.48 $19.48
184187S 1 CARDONE FRONT BRAKE CALIPER $26.96 $26.96
56023 1 84-87 BRAKE ROTOR PACKAGE (4 ROTORS) $125.82 -- $125.82
57016 2 84-87 UPPER CNTROL ARM BOLT & WSHERS $9.95 -- $19.90
57015 2 84-87 LOWER CNTROL ARM BOLTS A& NUTS $7.95 -- $15.90
5921 2 MONROE FRONT SHOCK ABSORBER $27.83 -- $55.66
K5292 2 MOOG BALLJOINT UPPER $32.50 -- $65.00
SA1998 1 MONROE STEERING DMPER HRDWR/PARTS $4.84 -- $4.84
SC2943 1 MONROE STEERING DMPR STABILIZER $27.23 -- $27.23
55189 2 84-87 FRONT WHL BEARING NUT WSHR&PIN $4.95 -- $9.90
58500 2 84-87 FRONT OUTER WHEEL BEARING $4.75 -- $9.50
58501 2 84-87 FRONT INNER WHEEL BEARING $6.32 -- $12.64
58508 2 84-87 FRONT WHEEL SEAL $2.76 -- $5.52
79261 1 84-87 FRONT CARBOMET PADS SET $37.40 -- $37.40
79262 1 84-87 REAR CARBOMET PADS SET $37.40 -- $37.40
71814 2 MONROE STRUT ASSEMBLY REAR $48.80 -- $97.60
63620 2 MONROE SHOCKS BOOTS/ACCESSORIES $13.72 -- $27.44
AK-30 1 MONROE SHOCKS MOUNTING KIT $7.44 -- $7.44
ACC-150615 1 ACCEL 15LB FUEL INJECTORS $216.69 -- $216.69
????????? 1 BOSCH NEW WATERPUMP $45.69 -- $45.69
54900 1 84-88 AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION SHIFT KIT $44.95 -- $44.95
54856 1 84-88 A/T TRQ CNVRTR LOCKUP SOLENOID $34.95 -- $34.95
61371 1 85-88 POSITIVE BATTERY CABLE $16.95 -- $16.95
63646 1 85-88 V6 BATTERY GROUND CABLE $13.95 -- $13.95
DL7194-6-12 1 DURALAST 94 AMP ALTENATOR $69.99 -- $69.99
DL6312MS 1 DURALAST STARTER $64.99 -- $64.99
2.8 SHORT 1 CME REMANUFACTURED 2.8 SHORTBLOCK $659.96 -- $659.96
68514 4 84-88 BLANK CENTER WHEEL CAP $8.95 -- $38.50
50897 20 84-88 LUG NUT COVER $1.25 -- $25.00
H6054ST 2 SEALED BEAM LAMP SYLVN $19.98 -- $39.96
?tires? 2 Dunlop SP8000 245/50-15 $158.00 -- $316.00
?tires? 2 Dunlop SP8000 225/50-15 $138.00 -- $276.00
???? 1 MAP (mass air pressure) Sensor (whadeduck) --
???? 1 TPS (throttle postion sensor) (whadeduck) --

Carpet, floor mats, stereo, aren't on that list along with several other odds and ends but I think that was most of the major mechanical parts.

To get the car to where I would like it to be would be another 6 to 7 thousand I'm sure but right now it's very driveable and there are no pressing issues. Still beats a 3 to 4 hundred dollar a month car payment and right now I only carry liability insurance so thats less than $300 a year. Not to mention tag, thats about $30 a year, last new vehicle I owned the tag was over $160 (payment on the vehicle was close to $600 a month).

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Don't take life too seriously -- you'll never get out if it alive.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: loose rear ends are scary

Yup. But a little Pepto Bismol usuallly helps.

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Whade' "The Duck Formerly Known As Wade" Duck
'87 GT Auto
'88 Ferrario
'84 Indy

Thanks for the input, everyone One of the side-effects of seeing a cost estimate like this is now I am more willing to risk a few hundred (even a thousand) dollars on some one-off test/R&D ideas, "splurge" for an engine swap, things like that. In the grand scheme of things, it's not that much more $ spent, and if I'm successful I'll be a lot happier with the outcome than if I played it safe.

quote Originally posted by PaulJK: i think you're Very smart to think things through Before you start spending. if you're not careful, you'll be through a lot of cash quickly. I'd figure out the total you want to spend, then look around and find out what other cars you could get for the same money - you might be surprised. In the Los Angeles area, you have the choice of a Lot of nice cars, especially as you climb in price. What is your finished fiero gonna give you ? Gas mileage and power aren't real considerations anymore - you can get a newer car with double the horsepower that will give you the same gas mileage a fiero gets. Unless you get an engine swap, but then you're still in a 20 year old 2 seater. And a newer car will have airbags and newer features. i think it all boils down to personal preference and what you like. But when you start pushing $15k to $20k, I think you can do a lot better getting a newer car (at least around here) ....

The "features" on newer cars are just that. Features. They are not nesessary. Plus if you go that route you will lose out on the fun that only a fiero can offer. Other cars are fun but not Fiero fun. A fiero is proof that airbags and other "saftey" features are just a way to lower the structural integrity of the car without comprimising saftey. This is why alot of newer cars are totaled by a simple fender benders. For me, spending 15-20K on a fiero is a much better way to spend the money on a car. You can do it a little at a time and end up with a "new" car in almost every sense of the word (except actual age). Most of the features in newer cars like traction control, antilock brakes is to make the drivers better which doesn't work because you're teaching people to depend on features instead of learning how to control their cars better.

If you look at the crash test ratings on newer cars you will see a decline in structural integrity tests. This is partly because of the use of airbags, antilock brakes, and other saftey features. Car companies dont have to make the cars better they just have to add the features to live up to the saftey standards. They dont make the cars any stronger. Fieros were tested with a 35mph solid barrier test. There are no cars made today that can withstand a crash like that. You look at cars like the Nissan Altima. It is thought to be a safe car yet in crash test ratings is has one of the lowest ratings available. This is because the features save lives so the car itself doesn't have to. Just imagine a Fiero with anti lock brakes, front and side airbags, and AWD (this would be incredible in itself). The likehood of someone dying in a fiero like this would be almost zero because it is already structurally sound and the added features would raise the bar to an unattainable level for most car companies. Fiero dont need the saftey features to be safe. So why dont more new cars crash test better?

Disclaimer: This is my opinion, and I really hate having to put these stupid disclamers in. lol

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 05-09-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: You have so many options with a fiero that there is no reason you can't build a car that is just what you have always wanted and more for much less then the cost of a new car.

That's really the best and worst part at the same time. So many options, and only one car to do them on (realistically). Sure, I could have a whole stable, but I only have $ to do one at a time. Decisions, decisions...

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: For the amount of money DRA (no offence) put into his 2.8 (1800) he could have had an engine swap to a newer, lower mileage, much more efficient motor.

That $1800 included the motor mounts, an exhaust, all new sensors, starter, alternator, waterpump,etc, etc, etc. Things that you would probably want to do even with a swap, including rebuilding the motor you are swapping in unless you happen across a new car that was wrecked upon delivery to the dealership.
The actual cost of the new rotating assembly w/cam and timing set was $659, the heads were a set I had in storage that were redone and put on the shelf when I was planning for a 3.4, they were about $200. The actual motor with warranty cost $859.

I checked into remanufactured 3.4 shorblocks, they were considerably more than having the 2.8 remanufactured (I would have also needed a core for the 3.4 or pay the additional core charge). I'm kind of limited to what I can do physically right now as well as financially and the 2.8 was the best way for me to go. I could not afford to put a junk yard motor in and have to pull it back out a week later to have it rebuilt, I needed something that would get me from point A to point B reliably and at the lowest cost. Once you start adding up all the little parts the cost starts growing, I didn't include all the PB blaster, parts cleaner, high temp paint, gasket sealer, rags, broken tools I had to replace, trans fluid, oil, assembly lube, assorted fasteners, wire brushes, grinding stones, sand paper, abrasive cutoff wheels, band aids, rubber gloves, etc, etc, etc. There was at least a couple hundred spent on incidentals, they kind of sneak up on you and you don't realize it till you look at your account balance LOL.
I checked into several swaps, have been following swaps and buildups on the Fiero since 1984. I do not beleive a "new" motor can be put in with all new components and accessories for under $1800 dollars.

I still dream of a complete 3800SC drivetrain swap but it's not gonna happen this week LOL, for now I'm happy knowing I have a reliable ride.

[This message has been edited by DRA (edited 05-09-2007).]

That's a very good point. When people post build threads, a lot of times they forget to post about the cost of all the little things because, well, they're little things. It's only when they are added up and looked at as a whole package that the real cost shows up. An engine swap is almost always more than just dropping a motor in, as you said. And even if you were able to just plop in a junkyard motor, you shouldn't trust it until a rebuild is done, or it has real low miles. Don't forget to refresh the transmission at the same time if you are going to be doing "spirited" driving... there's always more costs. $1800 is pretty good for a refreshed complete engine.

After adding up everything performance-wise available for the 2.8, to me it makes more sense to spring for a little more $$ and do a swap. Hopefully my business will get in the black soon, and I can start a build thread

quote Originally posted by kwagner: After adding up everything performance-wise available for the 2.8, to me it makes more sense to spring for a little more $$ and do a swap. Hopefully my business will get in the black soon, and I can start a build thread

I wouldn't spend much on a 2.8 over and above a stock rebuild either, the return on investment is just to low. The 3.4 seems to be a decent improvement but I still kind of question the value of it unless you are really trying to keep stock appearence and will settle for a marginal improvement in performance. Personally I like the Cadillac drivetrain, love the 3800SC drivetrain, and would love to have a SBC setup just to play with. The 3.4 DOHC looks like a nice swap but not sure about ease of installation, cost, maintenance effort, relaibility, and time involved, when compared to the end result (but as they say, I wouldn't kick it out of the bed....... or the garage!). All just my opinion though.
Do a lot of research, look at as many installations in person as possible, get rides if you can, and most of all take your time. You'll get a lot of pro's and con's on different swaps here on the forum, a lot of support with whatever you choose, but in the end it's your car and your the one that needs to be happy with the end result.

Best place to start is the Search function, you can get a lot of peoples past experience with issue regarding different combo's. Lots of good info on the Forum if you take the time to sort through some of the past threads (a lot of stuff out there relating to almost anything you can imagine!)

Good luck with your project and keep us posted.

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Don't take life too seriously -- you'll never get out if it alive.

quote Originally posted by DRA:

I think I'm freakin' out. It's like I've seen that place before.

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Whade' "The Duck Formerly Known As Wade" Duck
'87 GT Auto
'88 Ferrario
'84 Indy

quote Originally posted by whadeduck: I think I'm freakin' out. It's like I've seen that place before.

Wasn't that taken on a day you didn't show up for work?
By the way I am docking you for that, you are aware of that, right.... I mean it really won't effect your check, but it's the principal, bad work ethic....

Aww c'mon. It does look like that picture was taken right before you and Surge put the whole thing back in. A weekend I wasn't there for. You know me. If there's work to be done, I'm nowhere to be found.

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Whade' "The Duck Formerly Known As Wade" Duck
'87 GT Auto
'88 Ferrario
'84 Indy

I think I've wanted to do every engine swap out there at some point. Always going back and forth on the pros and cons. There is a lot of good reading material in the archives, seeing how people do a swap or build their whole project, the trials and tribulations. I'll have to go back through and read some more, for sure.

ps - whade, get back to work!

quote Originally posted by kwagner: ps - whade, get back to work!

You're wasting your breath! LOL

HEY! I'm Right Here! lol My only wish is that I could work at least half as hard as my boss. Hold on. Let me wake him up and ask him what his secret is.

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Whade' "The Duck Formerly Known As Wade" Duck
'87 GT Auto
'88 Ferrario
'84 Indy

quote Originally posted by whadeduck: HEY! I'm Right Here! lol My only wish is that I could work at least half as hard as my boss. Hold on. Let me wake him up and ask him what his secret is.

Goals are good, it's nice to see you have aspirations!

Set your goals low. That way, you're more likely to achieve them.

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Whade' "The Duck Formerly Known As Wade" Duck
'87 GT Auto
'88 Ferrario
'84 Indy

quote Originally posted by whadeduck: Set your goals low. That way, you're more likely to achieve them.

Thats my motto. Then you get really happy when you excede them! lol