It's been ages since I posted to the Forum directly, so I thought this might be a good time to do it again.
For the last 7 years, I have (with the help of a few good men and hundreds of Fiero owners) been collecting basic information on the 88 Fieros. To date, we have some info on around 4300 of the 26,402 Fieros made in 1988. When I say "some info", I mean that for 4300 cars, we have collected data of some sort. I generally track only the exterior and interior colors (and wheel colors for GTs and Formulas), the type of transmission, the roof option, and the car's status (intact, junkyard, parted out, etc). It is unfortunate that for a given car in the database, I may not have all of this info, but I have some info on 4300 of them.
In the process of doing this database, I started looking at ways it can be used to help define the percentages of types of cars, in the way that overall 1988 statistics can't do. No one had a reasonable number of, say, the number of Medium Red Metallic Formulas with Tan interiors. We had a overall percentage of Tan versus Grey interiors for ALL Fieros, but how do you know what the distribution might be for any given color?
Based on the cars in the database, I have been studying the percentages for each body style, and thought I'd share a little of that tonight. The numbers I'm showing here change slightly every time I add in new information for new cars (or add in missing info, like interior colors that were originally missing). But, taking the numbers together, they show remarkable agreement with published figures for the WHOLE 1988 production run, so I believe that I'm on the right track.
Let's take the question of how many GTs, of each color, came with either a Grey or Tan interior, in Leather, with Lumbar or regular cloth interiors.
We have published info from GM of how many GTs of each color were made. We also have an "official" number of how many came with Leather seats, and how many came with Lumbar seats. Using the percentages of each Interior color for each Exterior color fro the Database, I have produced the following educated guess of how many GTs were produced in each category:
.............................Grey Leather..Tan Leather.....Grey Lumbar...Tan Lumbar......Grey Cloth....Tan Cloth 1424 Black GTs = .........175 .............100.................114..................65..................618 .............352 1525 White GTs =..........185..............110.................120..................71..................653..............386 2607 Red GTs =.............318..............186.................207................121................1121..............654 794 Med Red GTs =......100 ...............54..................65...................35..................350..............190 257 Silver GTs = ............50 ............... 0...................32....................0..................175.................0 241 Yellow GTs =............47................0...................30....................0...................164................0
Now, these numbers change a little every time I get more data, but they are stabilizing over time, and I tend to think that they are within 5% either way of the real numbers. With more data comes more accuracy, and breakdowns like this become more useful for determining collectibility and rarity.
At some point, I do want to set up a website where owners can contribute info, and see more info than I can share via individual emails or posts here, but until then, please send any info you have on an '88 Fiero to me at JwWillhoff@aol.com. Please don't use the PM key, it will only add to the burden to the site, and it's easier for me to deal with email than PMs. I'll be happy to get ANY info on a car, but really would like to get the VIN, factory Exterior and Interior colors (and rim colors for GTs and Formulas), tranny type, roof type, and status. I don't need owner info, so please don't let that stop you from contributing. I don't track owners, only cars, but if you want to include personal stories or histories of cars, feel free to do so.
So, it's off to bed for me, but for you late night types or left coasters, go ahead, make my day, send me your info and I'll post again tomorrow.
G'night.
John
[This message has been edited by 88 Database Guy (edited 02-24-2006).]
This reminds me, I have a friend who just purchased a 88GT. It was origionally red with grey interior. Fully loaded, power everything including lumbar. It had an automatic transmission. I'll get the vin and post it up. It's now a 5 speed with a 4.9L V8. It's also black now.
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12:20 AM
watts Member
Posts: 3256 From: Coaldale, AB, Canada Registered: Aug 2001
I've also got a White GT with beachwood interior, auto, sunroof, fully loaded. Can't get to the vin right now, the car is resting in another state (garaged).
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12:29 AM
MRJ Member
Posts: 2765 From: Charleston, West Virginia Registered: Mar 2002
John it's great to hear from you. I dunno if you have my most recient purchase.
Complete VIN: 1G2PE1197JP224317 It was Maroon with a paint code of WA 9077. It has PW and PL, rear defrost , ac and Cruise. It's a beechwood interior with a Mustard yellow paint job with a big red racing stripe down the middle. It has 103,588 miles on it. It was 1068 of 1252 to have T-Tops installed. It was delivered to Prestige Pontiac. Cars & Concepts received it on 7-21-88. Cars & Concepts shipped it on 7-29-88.
299 formulas were made 1252 total CJB fieros were made yours is C&C #1068 Factory order # LML244 Prestige Pontiac ordered it in WV and C&C received it on 7-21-88 Pontiac shipped 20 fieros via car-carrier there I don't have 2 of them figured out but here is what I have for that day(3 coupes, 10 formulas, 5 GT's 2 NA) C&C shipped it on 7-29-88 And right now I have 42 Burgandy formulas but I still have 113 colors to figure out of the 1252 so there will be more!
Just some info I got from Fiero John in there too I thought I'd make public.
Fiero1Fan, thanks for the help with cars over there. Yours is a new one for me, can you tell me the transmission type and what kind of roof you have?
85_Fiero_2M4, yours is also new to me, and I think you included all the info I need. Thanks for your help.
FieroMaster88, sounds great. If you don't mind, please send it to my email as well as posting it, that way I'll be sure not to miss it. JwWillhoff@aol.com
watts, Yes, I'm still collecting that info. I didn't know anyone else remembered about that. For all that don't know what we're talking about, there was a sticker put on the top of the ALDL connector at the factory, and that sticker has a date and shift code on it. It has been guessed that the date relates to the production date, of either the car or the wiring harness, and we still don't have enough info to tell which, if either, is the case. I don't expect people to run out to their cars and remove the center console to look for a sticker that might have fallen off by now anyway, but the next time you go in there, how about keeping an eye out for the sticker, and if it's there, please send me the date and shift code on it. Thanks! JwWillhoff@aol.com
88White3.4GT, ok, I'll look forward to an email with your car's info.
Hey Matt, Yup, I have your car in there already, although I haven't checked to see where I got it's info. I'll add a note that it's yours now, unless I already have that in the database. Can you provide the tranny type too?
Thanks everyone, there are some good cars there, and several new ones previously undocumented.
Black exterior Grey Interior Power Lumbar Seats Sunroof Performance Sound Sunroof Shade Black Crosslace Wheels 5-Speed Getrag Power Mirrors Power Locks AC
Car is faithfully stock except for a 'CAI'. 68,107 miles on it. I'm the second owner and have owned for about a year and a half. The car was originally delivered to Hyman Bros. Pontiac in downtown Richmond, VA, but that dealer changed locations when it became Haywood Clarke Pontiac, and now has moved to a much larger facility named Dominion Pontiac. If you need other info I'd be glad to provide it.
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[This message has been edited by VA RICR-ETR (edited 02-25-2006).]
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05:53 PM
Indiana_resto_guy Member
Posts: 7158 From: Shelbyville, IN USA Registered: Jul 2000
Any way to take a count to see if you have all my 88s in the data base? 4 GTs (3 T-Top) 1 Formula 4 Coupes (I think), (3 T-Top-1 is non CJB) it might be 5 though.........I will take a count to be sure.
I do have an 88 coupe outside (not mine, engine swap) I will get the info for you tomorrow. Red with gray inside.
VI # 1G2PG1199JP208145........Black w/ tan cloth, autotranny, sunroof, gold lace wheels, PW-PL-PM, no wing(added later), 160K....looks like 20K. bought from RONNIE in Athens year before last.
------------------ Tommy C....84 4spd, 84 SE Auto, 84 Indy,85 GT, 86 SE V6, 87 GT ,88 GT
[This message has been edited by TCredGT (edited 02-25-2006).]
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09:10 PM
Russ88TTop Member
Posts: 805 From: Denver, IN, USA Registered: Jul 2004
Are you collecting the original paint code? I know most of us can spot a re-paint, but some may not and you might be off a little if your not collecting the actual color code. When mine is out of storage, I'll get the info to you. Thanks for collecting it all, you're doing us all a service.
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11:08 PM
Feb 26th, 2006
Fiero801 Member
Posts: 65 From: Salt Lake, Utah, USA Registered: Nov 2005
Fiero1Fan, thanks for the additional info, I think that'll do it! Thanks also for any help you can give me with cars over there.
VA RICR-ETR, hey, this is another new one to the database. Thanks for posting all it's info. It is pretty much a ringer for my daily driver of 10 years, except I don't have a sunroof, yet...
Indiana, I took a count and have 8 cars from you in the database. I'll send you an email with the list and we can see if there are any news ones. I also have a technical question for you...
TCredGT, So YOU got Ronnies car, eh? I saw it a couple of times at club meetings, and am glad to hear someone on the forum picked it up. That is a nice car, hope you are getting a lot of fun out of it.
Russ88Ttop,oooooh, I will send you an email in a few with some info for you on your car...
2000RagTop, yup, you sent your cars' info previously, thanks for that, and the update!
TG oreiF 8891 Yes, original Factory colors and info, please! From the cars already in the database, we can generally spot a car that is a repaint if it's smack dab in the middle of a run of cars of a different color. But this doesn't always work, so it's always good to check the codes if you aren't sure. I appreciate your Thanks, and thank you and the community for taking the time to send info in.
Fiero801, this isn't a new car but it was missing some of the info you provided. Thanks for filling in the blanks on the transmission and roof option. More Info is very good.
Thanks everyone for your help, I know I am not the most active here, but with good people like Fierobruiser, Fiero John -WI, and many others, we're making a sizable dent in the pile of unknown 88s.
I am sure that several of the missing 88's are here in Europe. Alot of cars were ordered direct from GM and delivered to us here. I will keep my eyes open and update you from time to time. Monday I have 3 that I am trying to get info on when the dealers are at work.
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11:06 AM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
I apologize in advance for this post. I know, its a hobby and hobbies sometimes look really strange to other people(ie. BASE jumping), but when I read a question such as...
"We had a overall percentage of Tan versus Grey interiors for ALL Fieros, but how do you know what the distribution might be for any given color?"
I say "Do I care?"
The key is that you have fun and you enjoy it, and I guess talking to Fiero owners all over the world about cars they've seen is cool so I guess I'm wondering what your motivation is?
I view the answer to your question as somewhat compulsive.
1988 Pontiac Fiero GT VIN: 1G2PG1194JP214368 Exterior: Medium Red Metallic Interior: Grey cloth w/o lumbar Wheels: 15" Black Honeycomb Transmission: Automatic Roof: Sunroof Status: 41,000 miles on it and counting, its a garage-kept 3-owner car with excellent condition original paint and original interior. To my knowledge, the only things replaced on the car have been the front shocks, the tires and wheels (I have the originals in storage), the battery, the alternator, and misc. tune-up stuff.
Toddster, Yup, saw that one, and will add it in to the mix shortly. Good show!
Gridlock, not a problem, appreciate the question. Here's how this started. Back in 1996, I bought an 88GT, and soon there after began to wonder how many like it were built, and what happened to the cars were that were built about the same time as mine. I had no idea of course, that there were no good records (apparently) at GM or Pontiac Historical on how many were built with the different options. They have overall information, but not on the individual car level. It seemed like a good idea to me, at the time, to track down as many cars as possible, to document them before it became just a hopeless task as more and more disappeared every week. It started with about a hundred cars I had collected info on, and after posting a few dozen notes on the old mailing list, it grew to several hundred. People have sent in info ever since, and with the continued parade of cars on ebay, autotrader, etc, we have collected some info on around 4300 of the 26,402 built.
Where is this headed? Well, let me be the first to say that I don't know that this is going anywhere! As you said, it's a hobby, mostly, that I HOPE will amount to something good for the Fiero community in the future. I don't know that our little cars will EVER really be a collectible, outside of a few low miles stock cars or maybe some of the TTOP cars with very low build numbers, so I have no illusions of making this into a registry like the ones for 427 Cobra Jet Mustangs or something like that. What I do know, is that we can use the data I've collected to make reasonable estimates of some of the numbers of cars built with various options. I'd like to get the info on every 88 built, but that's obviously impossible. But, with everyone's help, we can document enough of them to overcome the unknowns. And, it turns out, we can discover what combinations of car colors and basic options are more rare than others. Many people won't care about it, but some will, and maybe someday it will be a beautiful thing. I guess it really is true, the fun is in the doing, and not the end product. I don't have as much time as I'd like to devote to this thing as I used to, but I'm having fun so will keep doing it with everyone's help.
John, I just wanted to say "THANKS" er.. make that a "BIG THANKS" for all the hard work you have put into this list. I can just see a pile of papers all over your desk, trying to sort all of this out! lol PLEASE keep up the very good work!!!!
My new t tops is a 5 speed. Please let me know how you got the info on the car or unless it was from me previously. I'd like to know as much history as possible. Thanks again Matt Jackson
1G2PE1192JP222524 Red Coupe, V6, Auto, AC, Grey Cloth interior, Sunroof, Power Windows, Power Mirrors, Rear Spoiler, 122k
1G2PE119XJP207186 Formula, Red, V6, 5 sp. Manual, AC, Grey Leather Interior, Sunroof, Power Windows, Power Mirrors, Rear Spoiler, 79k Can you tell me what the X means?
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10:53 AM
RRobinson Member
Posts: 398 From: Calgary, Alberta Registered: Dec 2000
This reminds me, I have a friend who just purchased a 88GT. It was origionally red with grey interior. Fully loaded, power everything including lumbar. It had an automatic transmission. I'll get the vin and post it up. It's now a 5 speed with a 4.9L V8. It's also black now.
Ok, the vin is 1G2PG1199JP213748. It's a fully loaded GT, power windows, power locks, cruise, power mirrors, ac, lumbar, rear defrost, trunk pop ect. Was red from the factory we believe but is now black with a 4.9 V8. Was an automatic from the factory and is now a 5 speed.
Sorry for the delay in touching base with everyone. I've been busy typing in all the new info y'all have been sending me.
Tinton, thanks for the info, but you know I snagged your beauty's info at a club meeting some time ago. I'm the guy with the same car as yours, only with TTops and Leather. I haven't made a meeting lately, but will try to make one soon.
Revin, Thank YOU for your help, and I appreciate your appreciation. You are correct about the big pile of paper on my desk. I have a space about 15 in x 15 in x 24 in completely filled with database info.
MRJ, I guess I got some of the info on your car from Ray Paulk's TTOP registry. We try to periodically update each other with basic car data, and I guess he had yours at some point in the past. I'm sorry I can't give you any more history. I wonder what your carfax would say?
Fiero1Fan, say, those are TWO NEW cars for the database. I'm sure I'd never have gotten them without your help. As others have posted, the "X" is merely a check digit in the VIN. It is calculated using a formula which uses the other characters in the VIN, so it is not a random number, but something which actually I use to check on questionable VINs with. If I get a partial VIN, I can sometimes use the equation to regenerate the whole VIN. Thanks for your help with the German cars.
RRobinson, Thanks for the thumbs up, and YOUR CAR is also a new one for the database! When you get some time, can you shoot me the other cars' info in your signature? I'll bet I don't have them either. That's one nice collection you have going there.
FieroMaster88, Thanks for the info on the car, it's also NEW to the database. And, thanks for giving me the factory options (as well as the current configuration). That's all I needed to add it to the list.
Red88FF, Thanks for the good info on your car. I had some of this info from an online ad, but didn't have it all, and you've filled in the gaps. Glad to hear it's alive and well in Wash.
Hey Rayday, NICE CAR in the other thread. Really nice. Man, it's gotta lead the Parade this year. You better call in sick now so you'll be able to go! Any info on any 88 is welcome, but you are right, I'm not specifically tracking mods. Except yours, for the authorities....
To all who've sent in info, or read this long winded posted, THANK YOU. I'll try to get back with the email submissions in the next couple of days, and I appreciate your patience.
Happy Fieroing Everyone,
John
JwWillhoff@aol.com
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09:47 PM
VA RICR-ETR Member
Posts: 414 From: Nashville, TN USA Registered: May 2004
The guy that owned it before me bought it new and had pretty incredible records. Everything maintenance-wise was done at the Pontiac dealership, and the current Service Manager at that dealership knows the salesman and Service Manager from back then. Pretty cool.
I actually have both a reprint and the original window sticker. Also ordered all the press and spec stuff from PHS, and Ive got quite a book of stuff I carry around in it. I love this hobby. ;-)
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10:22 PM
PFF
System Bot
motoracer838 Member
Posts: 3751 From: Edgewater Co. USofA Registered: Jan 2006
Hey John; Here's mine it's a red coupe with wing came with 4cyl 5 speed grey int no power opts. It now has a 4.9 and auto. My guess is it's a new car to the registry. Cheers Beers n Gears. Joe
forgot the vin 1G2PE11RXJP217815
[This message has been edited by motoracer838 (edited 02-28-2006).]
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10:39 PM
GDS-1 Member
Posts: 157 From: Tacoma,WA,USA Registered: Feb 2006
motoracer838 Did your Coupe come with the wing from the factory. Does it list D80 "Extension, rear end panel (spoiler)" on your RPO sticker on the left front fender well?
------------------ Notchbacks RULE
"Let a man drive a Fiero and he'll own one. Teach a man to fix a Fiero and he'll own eight."
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11:34 PM
Mar 1st, 2006
Indiana_resto_guy Member
Posts: 7158 From: Shelbyville, IN USA Registered: Jul 2000
motoracer838 Did your Coupe come with the wing from the factory. Does it list D80 "Extension, rear end panel (spoiler)" on your RPO sticker on the left front fender well?
Yes it is a D80 code car. Joe
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10:11 PM
AaronZ34 Member
Posts: 2322 From: Colorado Springs, CO Registered: Oct 2004
for all the hard work you have put into this list. I can just see a pile of papers all over your desk, trying to sort all of this out! lol
