I know you asked George, but I may be able to help. The SCCA rule book says (at least for GT class) that the car must no exceed 103 dba at track side. That is somewhat subjective depending on the equipment, weighted scale (A or C) and the angle (directly behind the car would be the worst.). 103 dba is like NASCAR. If you are below that you should have no problem.
Hope that helps. George, any additional comments or am I completely off for a street car?
------------------ Paul Hosler 87 GT 217,xxx Daily diver. Modified IMSA 600+ hp Tube chassis racecar (in progress)
Paul- thanks for the response! (BTW: I've really enjoyed reading & following the buildup of your car... I'm looking forward to seeing it in Michigan!)
103db trackside? I should be OK. With my soundmeter, I measure approx 100db inside the car when cruising at 70mph (windows closed & wearing earplugs!). With the windows open, and under heavy acceleration, that number goes up to almost 115db. Which if measured from anywhere outside the car from a distance- should be well under their 103db restriction... I'll be off to register shortly then
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06:25 PM
blakeinspace Member
Posts: 5923 From: Fort Worth, Texas Registered: Dec 2001
Originally posted by MinnGreenGT: I was wondering if you had any details as to their "noise restrictions" and enforcement (how is it measured, at what distance, and at what RPM?) My car is pretty loud, and wouldn't want to have to worry about it
When I asked this question on the racing list, Bill Wheeler responded. Bill races at Waterford regularly
>>> The sound limit at the track is 75db, measured at the property line. The last part is the key, there are sound barriers between the track and the property line. A car that measures 85db at 50 ft. should be good, That is a much more typical way of measuring sound (SCCA measures this way). Some real life examples of cars that regularly meet the Waterford sound limit are:
ITA Fiero - (my car) Walker 'Dynomax' muffler (mounted in cat. converter location), 2" pipe dumps in front of trunk, total exhaust length is ~4 ft. from collector to end, one of the quietest cars on the track. measured at 65d.
ITB Fiero - 'cherry bomb' type muffler, short exhaust pipe (louder than mine, but not close to limit).
GT3 Probe - (full race four cylinder, over 250 HP.), 'Borla' muffler, dumps in front of rear wheel, near limit.
AS Mustang - (V8 powered w/ ITA type engine rules), full size muffler (usually 'Borla), w/ exhaust out passenger side, very close to limit, worries about weather.
ITA RX7 - (rotary engines are the toughest to quiet down), very large resonator into 'Dynomax' muffler, barely meets limit, worries about weather.
Helpful tips - if you get there and have a problem with sound, there are things you can try.
1- check for any intake or exhaust leaks.
2- on rare occasions the air intake causes more noise than anything else, usually on intakes exposed to the outer airflow.
2- aim the end of your system towards the passenger side of the car (away from sound meter).
3- add a 'Supertrapp' muffler (it's added on the end of the tail pipe and is adjustable for sound-yes, they work)
If you are trying to get as close to the limit as possible, think twice before you do. The sound reading on a car will change due to factors beyond your control, like wind or clouds. Any car with a 'full size' muffler should meet sound. If you drive it on the street and it doesn't bother the neighbors it is probably OK. There are GT1 cars with full race V8's that meet sound with one muffler. The sound limit is low, but the cars are not super quiet. Ask George how quiet the paddock was on the race weekend he visited, every car there met our sound limit. A well designed exhaust system does not have to cost you power. To those who say it has to be loud to be fast, I offer the following: One of our local racers was quite successful in SCCA's Formula Ford class. This is a 'spec' type open wheel class with very strict engine rules. He got tired of changing his exhaust system to race at Waterford so he sent both systems to his engine builder. They were both dyno'd. He found that the 'Waterford' system cost him one (1) horsepower. He always ran the 'Waterford' system from then on. He finished in the top ten at the national championships. Sound is a very complicated issue. If anyone has questions about specific applications or anything else to do with Waterford Hills, please feel free to email me on or off the list. Hope this helps…
Bill Wheeler itamongo@msn.com <<<
------------------ Doug Chase '88 Fiero Formula 5-spd (autocrosser) '88 Fiero GT 5-spd (daily driver) '85 Fiero GT 5-spd (rally car) '87 Fiero SE V6 5-spd (for sale $2200) '88 Fiero Formula 5-spd (parts car / future rally car #2) Custom roll cage fabrication available Custom exhaust fabrication available
2ndly, I purchased a part from Paul Ecklund (Primitive Racing/Subaru WRX) who said he knows you from the racing circuit- I told him to be sure to say "hi" the next time he ran across you!
quote
Originally posted by Doug Chase (& Bill Wheeler):
The sound limit at the track is 75db, measured at the property line. The last part is the key, there are sound barriers between the track and the property line. A car that measures 85db at 50 ft. should be good, That is a much more typical way of measuring sound (SCCA measures this way).
That sounds reasonable... I'll have to have someone rev the engine while I take a measurement from a bit of a distance. I'm sure my car isn't quite that loud!
quote
... If you are trying to get as close to the limit as possible, think twice before you do.
Getting close to the limit is not at all my intention. A few years ago, my original muffler rotted out and the local muffler shop wanted $300+ for just the muffler (not installed). I instead opted for a straight exhaust running only a high-flow cat and Pacesetter/Monza Baffle Tips (the entire setup cost me less than $250).
If you drive it on the street and it doesn't bother the neighbors it is probably OK.
Well, My neighbors have never commented on it (other than maybe a general observation that it's loud). On the other hand, a Wisconsin State Patrol officer did take note of it last year (a ticket which I kind of worked around)
I do not have plans to keep the car quite as loud as it is (as I mentioned... I do wear earplugs on road trips- and yes, it's quite obnoxious). I actually had plans to have a dual chamber muffler installed, but the one I had purchased did not fit correctly... so it's still the same system. As I mentioned, when I get around to installing the V8 I am planning to add a fairly signifigant exhaust system to reduce the volume.
[This message has been edited by MinnGreenGT (edited 06-10-2003).]
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07:10 PM
cadero2dmax Member
Posts: 1266 From: Brighton, CO Registered: Oct 2001
The main thing I'm worried about is my brakes. The rotors on my car are kind of old, and have been machined down already. I might go by the parts store and see how much a new set will cost.
If your car needs pads and rotors now, by all means get them. But if they are OK now, and you just aren't sure that they will make the entire event, I would still get new ones. But I wouldn't put them on just yet. There will be plenty of time between heats to swap brakes if you need to!
Waterford reminds me of a Solo Trials course in both length and speed. Doubt very many will hit the century mark for speed, at least not often - -
Sqoach, if you want to caravan up with a bunch of us, meet us at the Flying J in Tulsa at 4:00 PM on the 15th. There will be several in this caravan, and some of us will be trailering (and have air, water, spare parts, and support).
G
[This message has been edited by cadero2dmax (edited 06-10-2003).]
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08:13 PM
Nashco Member
Posts: 4144 From: Portland, OR Registered: Dec 2000
MinnGreenGT: Let me know what kind of results your sound test gets. Since my exhaust is so similar to yours, that will give me a very good idea of what I need to do with mine. I'm worried about the sound regulations as well for the same reasons; I got a cheap installation and couldn't fit the muffler I was going to put in. I really don't want to spend money on a better exhaust since it'll be gone in less than a year, but then again, I don't want to be denied an opportunity to race for something as stupid as an excessively loud exhaust!!!
Thanks,
Bryce 88 GT
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08:55 PM
Jun 11th, 2003
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
Rare87GT> Send in that FORM Squoach> If you haven't, get it done Wheels1> Chris, you can listen to the stereo on the track, I'll ride shotgun and watch TV.
If your car needs pads and rotors now, by all means get them. But if they are OK now, and you just aren't sure that they will make the entire event, I would still get new ones. But I wouldn't put them on just yet. There will be plenty of time between heats to swap brakes if you need to!
Waterford reminds me of a Solo Trials course in both length and speed. Doubt very many will hit the century mark for speed, at least not often - -
Sqoach, if you want to caravan up with a bunch of us, meet us at the Flying J in Tulsa at 4:00 PM on the 15th. There will be several in this caravan, and some of us will be trailering (and have air, water, spare parts, and support).
G
[This message has been edited by cadero2dmax (edited 06-10-2003).]
LOL...I can see it now...me in the pits swapping out the old warped rotors which were smoking coming out of turn 8. I'll have to check them tomorrow. I'm pretty sure they're below specs for tossing them out. I'm wondering if I should spring for the cross drilled rotors, or just get stock replacements. I don't have the money to do any kind of big brake upgrade yet. So, there's going to be 3 times going out on the track? How many laps per session? And how much time between sessions? How long is this track?
And I'd love to caravan with you guys, but me and my family are leaving early (the 12 or 13th) to Indiana to stay with my aunt for a few days. Then we're heading up to Michigan early Thursday morning. I should be there in time for the 10:30 meeting/class.
BTW John, I registered last night
[This message has been edited by sqoach (edited 06-11-2003).]
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12:16 AM
PFF
System Bot
R Runner Member
Posts: 3703 From: Scottsville, KY Registered: Feb 2003
this is all useless discussion unless we get the people signed up. 4 days left to sign up. hard to believe theres so little interest. why are people not signing up?
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08:41 AM
Doug Chase Member
Posts: 1487 From: Seattle area, Washington State, USA Registered: Sep 2001
Originally posted by Pyrthian: hard to believe theres so little interest. why are people not signing up?
Because most people in the Fiero community are weenies who think that the purpose of go-fast engine and suspension bits is to polish, show, and talk about. Not many of them want to put these parts to their intended use.
People who have signed up for the track day are obviously excepted.
It's frustrating, isn't it?
------------------ Doug Chase '88 Fiero Formula 5-spd (autocrosser) '88 Fiero GT 5-spd (daily driver) '85 Fiero GT 5-spd (rally car) '87 Fiero SE V6 5-spd (for sale $2200) '88 Fiero Formula 5-spd (parts car / future rally car #2) Custom roll cage fabrication available Custom exhaust fabrication available
this is all useless discussion unless we get the people signed up. 4 days left to sign up. hard to believe theres so little interest. why are people not signing up?
It's not useless discussion if it could help people decide to sign up. I wasn't even going to sign up until I got more info about this event. I knew nothing about it because I didn't read the Waterford track page on the 20th website. And as Doug just mentioned, a lot of guys don't want to push their cars and see what they can do. I didn't want to at first, but hell, I've done some suspension mods and got some bigger wheels and tires. I want to see what it can do besides stiffin up the ride.
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12:26 PM
R Runner Member
Posts: 3703 From: Scottsville, KY Registered: Feb 2003
Your last post is exactly what we need. People need to realize that they can take their cars out, have fun, and not worry about damaging them. I know it is always a posibility, but so is getting rear-ended on the highway. You put it best when you said "what the heck?!"
I definitely agree with Adam/Sqoach- I just finished submitting my registration (and payment) and I'm looking forward to enjoying the car on a nice surface designed for some speed. (I too just had some suspension work done: adjustable Koni's <coilovers in the rear> as well as a Poly Total kit, -1 loop on front springs, and a new rear swaybar)
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02:13 PM
Doug Chase Member
Posts: 1487 From: Seattle area, Washington State, USA Registered: Sep 2001
Your last post is exactly what we need. People need to realize that they can take their cars out, have fun, and not worry about damaging them. I know it is always a posibility, but so is getting rear-ended on the highway. You put it best when you said "what the heck?!"
Exactly. And if it breaks on the track it was probably going to break anyway, it just happened sooner on the track. And as blakeinspace said in page 1:
quote
Originally posted by blakeinspace:
(I drive a 100,000mi Formula.) If it's gonna die, what a way to go!
That's the right attitude!
------------------ Doug Chase '88 Fiero Formula 5-spd (autocrosser) '88 Fiero GT 5-spd (daily driver) '85 Fiero GT 5-spd (rally car) '87 Fiero SE V6 5-spd (for sale $2200) '88 Fiero Formula 5-spd (parts car / future rally car #2) Custom roll cage fabrication available Custom exhaust fabrication available
Just filled out the registration form, I will be mailing in my money. I didn't relize that we had to preregister till I saw this. Sounds like this will be alot of fun. As someone said before "dirve it like ya stole it", we don't get these chances very often.
------------------ 86 GT Black 88 yellow formula t-top, factory
Bump from Page 2! What's the word on pre-registration count?
Also- after all my pestering about sound levels... it looks like I'll probably have a muffler installed by then
Rob, did you happen to do any sound testing, or you're just getting a muffler anyway? I'm debating whether I should get a 30 dollar decibel meter and test the sound level or just spend a couple hundred and get the exhaust installed. I'm really wanting to avoid the exhaust because it'll be scrapped in a year anyway, but the sound meter would be useful forever.
Thanks,
Bryce 88 GT
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04:50 PM
California Kid Member
Posts: 9541 From: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan Registered: Jul 2001
I can't help thinking, I don't have any way of checking the dB on my car to the conditions at Waterford (no dB meter and how do you duplicate the track enviornment for the test). Would be a real bummer to get there and not be allowed to run because you're over there sound requirements. Wouldn't be a problem if you were used to running at these tracks, you'd adjust for their conditions, but for a special event with a bunch of first timers, this could be a big disappointment to a lot of people.
Bryce/Nashco- I haven't gotten the exhaust installed yet (probably 1st part of next week)... so I'll try to get another person to help me take some sound readings before then. I'll try to test it in a loud/reflective/echoey area as a "worst case scenario"
CA Kid - I wish I had a suggestion, but I don't know of any way to create that exact environment. My only thought is that for a car to still be 75db on the other side of a sound barrier... it would have to be well beyond 150db up close.
I know the rule stated above said 75db on the edge of the property- anyone happen to know exactly how close the property line is to the edge of the track?
One more question while I have the "pros" reading along Helmet. I have a brand new (faily cheap) full-faced ("Raider" Brand) cycle helmet... how I can verify it's SNELL rating? (it only had to be "DOT" approved for the cycle use).
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05:09 PM
fierochild Member
Posts: 346 From: Woodstock, Ga. USA Registered: Mar 2001
Just thought I’d jump in With my two cents worth. I registered very early on. I have done a few HPDEs (That’s High Performance Driving Events) with my Fiero, and that is what is being offered here at Waterford. It is NOT a race. There was some thought and discussion about inviting experienced racers to bring their Fiero racecars and compete in a demonstration race. Unfortunately insurance restrictions and cost prevented it from happening. However several of the Fiero racers got excited enough about the event that they are bringing their cars anyway. They will drive their cars under the HPDE rules just like the rest of us. The Fiero community will get a chance to see what a race car is like up close and personal. Thanks Guys. Some of you have expressed concerns about your brakes and rotors. Unless your rotors are already worn out I would not worry about them. Brake pads on the other hand should be a concern. You may have heard about or even experienced brake fade. (When you push on the brake pedal and it doesn’t slow the car down like usual) Most of the time (except in real real heavy racing competition) what you are experiencing is brake pad fade. The brake pad compound gets hot and looses friction. I would therefore suggest that if you are running “economy” brake pads consider replacing them with premium pads. These too will fade but not as quickly. Also if you are new to HPDE start off at a moderate speed. Feel out the road course and your car. If you start to experience brake fade, slow down especially going into a corner. Let off the gas a little early, and let the engine slow you down before you enter the corner. When your brakes cool you can pick up your speed again. Don’t forget your tires. As your speed builds so does your tire temperature. When street tires get hot they loose their gripping ability. This can be retarded somewhat by running slightly higher air pressure than normal. Expect this to happen. You won’t be able to drive as fast once your tires get hot. I have been driving my 120XXX Fiero at these kinds of events for a couple of years, and have had no more problems than running the street or twisties. I am currently building an86SE to SCCA ITA specs. Hopefully it will be finished in time to bring to Pontiac. If not my 120XXX 86GT will be on the track. Either way I wouldn’t miss this for the world. This high-speed stuff can be addictive.
Just a few thoughts for those who haven’t done HPDEs brfore. Chuck
------------------
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08:26 PM
R Runner Member
Posts: 3703 From: Scottsville, KY Registered: Feb 2003
Okay, this is it. We need more to register for the Waterford event. I don't know the count, but the more we have the better it will be.
For the others out there reading this post who are planning on going... If we don't get the 50, I would be willing to pay a little more, how about you? Hey George, would $100 per person cover it with the current count?
I really want this event to happen. I have put hundreds of hours and an obseen (no $ figure will be given) amount of money to make this event instead of having the car done 5 months from now. I would help more with the money, but I am darn near flat broke from the car (and in debt too I might add). I have taken two weeks off of work just to work on the car. Okay I'll stop, but my point is that I REALLY want to run this event.
The irony of all of this is that I may run out of time and/or money before the 16th and not be able to run anyway. BUT I'LL STILL BE THERE.
Please sign up and join the fun!
------------------ Paul Hosler 87 GT 217,xxx Daily diver. Modified IMSA 600+ hp Tube chassis racecar (in progress)
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10:20 PM
Jun 13th, 2003
Along For The Ride Member
Posts: 76 From: Oley, PA, USA Registered: Sep 2001
need to know how many are signed up as of today...i'm not signing up unless we're in the 40's cause i'm not gonna give away $65 to cfogi and get nothing back....
------------------ Eric '87 GT 5-speed Gold/Tan NOW with a 4.10 4-speed <- edit broke 4.10 back to 3.65 4-speed 3.1 TDC + other goodies F/S $900 (no ECU or harness) PM or email for more info....
need to know how many are signed up as of today...i'm not signing up unless we're in the 40's cause i'm not gonna give away $65 to cfogi and get nothing back....
Ummm... where was it stated that there wouldn't be refunds if the track day didn't happen?
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02:15 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
really! I thought if the event falls thru, there will be a refund. either way - we are close, and I'm sure we will get something worked out. Just means less traffic, and more time for us. If theres only 40, that'll be about $15-$20 more. Still a great price, and I'd pony up. Anybody been at any of the previous Waterford days? This is the first for me, and the main reason I'm attending the 20th. It would be great dissappointment if this falls thru. Never been on a racetrack, rally, or auto-x, or anything like that. (except them 3 70 mph laps at MIS).
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02:50 PM
PFF
System Bot
R Runner Member
Posts: 3703 From: Scottsville, KY Registered: Feb 2003
I rember reading in a previous post (or on the CFOG-i website) that if it fell through that there would be a refund. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure.
Paul
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05:59 PM
FastFieros Member
Posts: 2698 From: Dallas Texas USA Registered: Nov 2000
Guys, the Performance Director is tied up today and will post later on this subject. Refunds were in the plans if things fall though, but that was when insurance issues were a problem. Being a director for CFOGi, I have seen information that will soon be released that indicates this event is "on track" and happening. It will "help" tremendously if everyone will just pre-enter as asked so actuate monies can be placed to the proper people showing CFOGi is serious, and the Fiero community is serious.
Thanks Loyde CFOGi South Central Director CFOGi WebMaster
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06:16 PM
cadero2dmax Member
Posts: 1266 From: Brighton, CO Registered: Oct 2001
need to know how many are signed up as of today...i'm not signing up unless we're in the 40's cause i'm not gonna give away $65 to cfogi and get nothing back....
When I got home from work tonight, I logged my 41st entry - Fred Bartemeyer.
If the event is cancelled by the club, track, or insurance for any reason, there WILL be a refund. The only time that there would be a question is if an entrant cancels of his own accord. The CFOGi Board of Directors would have to decide whether to refund or not - depending on what caused the cancellation. I know the "No Refund" on the registration page is not very clear, I have asked our webmaster to consider clarifying it.
We MUST have pre-registrations. Can you imagine committing for several thousand dollars, then getting a handful of people to show up? That is what some people are asking of us.
I would also like to clarify the numbers. The 50 minimum entry figure is the GO/NO-GO number. The 50 count should be enough pre-registered entries to cover the event without such amenities as T-shirts or mementos, and we will have to charge a larger gate for all but the actual entrants. But we WILL be able to have the track day.
To keep the gate charge for non-competitors at a very nominal rate ($2 or so), have T-shirts (I have a really NEAT shirt designed) and maybe some other "stuff" for memory's sake, we still need to have around 65 paid entries.
I am not concerned. We have told everbody that if they just pre-register, we will alow them a little more time to scrape up the funds. I am averaging 2 - 3 entries per day these last few days. I fully expect to have well over 50 entries by next week.
From the time the magic "50" threshold is crossed on, it will be up to those that are registered whether or not to kick in some more $ to get the "goodies", or make up any deficit. But if I get 65, the numbers will balance out.
Hope this helps
------------------ George Ryan Performance Director CFOG-I
[This message has been edited by cadero2dmax (edited 06-13-2003).]
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06:27 PM
RAREW66 Member
Posts: 1119 From: Davenport, IA USA Registered: Jun 2001
I have my registration paid. I have not been high speed touring in over ten years. If my 275,000 mile Formula breaks, it will have a nice quiet ride home in the "box". I look forward to riding in Paul Hoslers new toy. I have never felt over 600 HP in a Fiero before.
See everyone at the 20th!!
------------------ Fred Bartemeyer Chairman Heartland Fieros http://www.heartlandfieros.com 86 GT 4spd 26k miles 87 GT 5spd. Blue 37k miles 88 Silver T-Top Formula 271,000 miles 87 GT 5 spd Annette's Sunshine Driver 88 GT 5 spd Annette's Daily Driver
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06:32 PM
cadero2dmax Member
Posts: 1266 From: Brighton, CO Registered: Oct 2001
I can't help thinking, I don't have any way of checking the dB on my car to the conditions at Waterford (no dB meter and how do you duplicate the track enviornment for the test). Would be a real bummer to get there and not be allowed to run because you're over there sound requirements. Wouldn't be a problem if you were used to running at these tracks, you'd adjust for their conditions, but for a special event with a bunch of first timers, this could be a big disappointment to a lot of people.
If your car is street legal, it will pass the track db rule. The only car I thought might have problems when I visited was an RX-7 (they are obnoxious sounding when the exhaust is opened up, anyway) - - but even he was no9t black flagged.
The only ones I think need to to worry are the racers that have heavily modded their exhaust, and most of them are used to stuffing steel wool up their tailpipes, and exploring other tricks to make a track's sound limits. I will bet if there are issues that some of them can show you some pretty neat tricks!
G
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06:36 PM
Boomtastic Member
Posts: 2359 From: Athens, Alabama Registered: May 2000
Pitiful is exactly the word. While I understand that many are planning on signing up at the gate, I encourage everyone to "show your support" of these events by registering in advance because without your registration we have no idea how many people are actually coming. Let's put it this way - if 100 people registered for the drags, we would know well in advance that the event was a go. As it stands now, we have no idea if enough people will show up to cover the track rental.
------------------ Boomtastic
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08:26 PM
R Runner Member
Posts: 3703 From: Scottsville, KY Registered: Feb 2003
I have said that I will be taking passengers along, and I will (provided the thing is running). However, I don't want to disappoint. As I said before, I will have time for 2 or maybe 3. I, like many of you are there to learn. I am hoping to have some instruction as well. I also need to break in the clutch which means on/off gas driving. And, of course, seat time. If there are more people that want to ride than time allows, we can draw straws or something. I just don't want everyone thinking that I promised everyone a ride.
Thanks for understanding. (now cross your fingers that I can get this thing going by that date.)
------------------ Paul Hosler 87 GT 217,xxx Daily diver. Modified IMSA 600+ hp Tube chassis racecar (in progress)
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10:37 PM
Jun 14th, 2003
cadero2dmax Member
Posts: 1266 From: Brighton, CO Registered: Oct 2001
you should have no problem.
Helmet. I have a brand new (faily cheap) full-faced ("Raider" Brand) cycle helmet... how I can verify it's SNELL rating? (it only had to be "DOT" approved for the cycle use).
