The 7730 run a Northstar with DIS just fine... but the Northstar ICM requires a specific 32x trigger wheel.
The 7x trigger wheel that a 4 cylinder DIS understands can be had as a bolt-on kit from WOT Tech.
Can I get some more info on this? Would you need to hook up a separate flywheel sensor? Would this eliminate the entire distributor or just the coil from the top of the distributor? Maybe you are saying you can tap into the control module and fire the coil off of that. If so, will the computer place nice without a reprogram?
Amount I may chop off up to the bypass actuator valve.
This one shows the overlap of the distributor with the supercharger outlet centered on the throttle body inlet. offset towards the rear of the car so you can see though.
**************************************** 88 Formula CJB Arrived Finally. #689 of 1252 Time to start Working TONY! There are Two kinds of Fiero's : Notchies and Donors!
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05:46 PM
dratts Member
Posts: 8373 From: Coeur d' alene Idaho USA Registered: Apr 2001
I don't know what turbo they used on the 4.9. I have PBJs N* turbo kit and fieroaddictions turbo N*. Fieroaddictionsns turbo is twice the size of PBJs on both the turbine and the compressor side.
And that is a '91 Civic hatchback which is the first ever transverse V8 Honda. Using the good ole 282. The F23 was unfortunately too large and cut too far into the rear crossmember. Planning on this being a big deal so I've gotta start making some kind of go fast parts
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09:58 PM
PFF
System Bot
Sep 17th, 2011
stickpony Member
Posts: 1187 From: Pompano Beach, FL Registered: Jan 2008
Thanks for the suggestions fellas but I had definitely thought of that. At the moment I have just a general outline until I get all the bigger hurdles out of the way. It's nice to have the forum and get everyone's input at the same time
I've been building hot rods since '71 and dabbled in top fuel for a while. I'm not really new to the scene
my suggestion: use a 95 corvette or camaro LT1 optispark setup and ECM, and modify the 4.9 distributor to take the optical cam sensor and pickup.. then use the DIS kits that are available for the optispark instead of keeping the hei distributor functional. It has been done on the 4.9L by Robert Cope, and the results are nothing short of amazing. PLUS: this takes the 4.9L into a whole new realm of easy tunability, especially for supercharged/turboed applications
Very interesting project and I applaud your fabrication efforts. While I am a big fan of boosted engines I am not sure what your expectation is for the Eaton M90 supercharger. The displacement of that supercharger is only 90 cubic inches. Here you are putting it on a 300 C.I. engine. You might get some boost out of it but it could have trouble keeping up and end up being a restriction. I would go to the Eaton website and take a look at the supercharger maps. That should give you some idea of how the M90 will work. Prediction: Maybe 4-5 psi of boost max but still enough give a significant power increase. If all doesn't look good then you could always step up to the Eaton M112 supercharger. That's a larger unit and should work super. Another area to address is reprogramming for extra fuel and moving the timing table values to the left by a factor of two. Then installing new timing numbers for advance and retard in the right positions. This will allow the use of a 2 BAR MAP sensor so you will have proper timing under all manifold pressures.. The table that you want to look at is the RPM vs manifold vacuum/boost vs timing. Be prepared to run only premium 93 octane gasoline.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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04:59 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Can I get some more info on this? Would you need to hook up a separate flywheel sensor? Would this eliminate the entire distributor or just the coil from the top of the distributor? Maybe you are saying you can tap into the control module and fire the coil off of that. If so, will the computer place nice without a reprogram?
You'd use one wheel with two sensors, offset 90 degrees from each other. You'd essentially turn the V8 into two V4's. You'd need two 4 cylinder coil packs and two identical ECM's.
Ditch the distributor. Go to dual 4 cylinder ECM's and DIS coil packs.
do what Robert Cope did with his 4.9L x-11, he converted it to a '95 LT1 computer with optisparc and DIS. Robert did a full buildout to it, taking it slightly farther than Rick Stewart did to his allante 4.9L setup, and found that the LT1 made tuning ALOT easier
he also has a 6800 rpm redline, and it pulls hard all the way to the redline
[This message has been edited by stickpony (edited 12-28-2011).]
Very interesting project and I applaud your fabrication efforts. While I am a big fan of boosted engines I am not sure what your expectation is for the Eaton M90 supercharger. The displacement of that supercharger is only 90 cubic inches. Here you are putting it on a 300 C.I. engine. You might get some boost out of it but it could have trouble keeping up and end up being a restriction. I would go to the Eaton website and take a look at the supercharger maps. That should give you some idea of how the M90 will work. Prediction: Maybe 4-5 psi of boost max but still enough give a significant power increase. If all doesn't look good then you could always step up to the Eaton M112 supercharger. That's a larger unit and should work super. Another area to address is reprogramming for extra fuel and moving the timing table values to the left by a factor of two. Then installing new timing numbers for advance and retard in the right positions. This will allow the use of a 2 BAR MAP sensor so you will have proper timing under all manifold pressures.. The table that you want to look at is the RPM vs manifold vacuum/boost vs timing. Be prepared to run only premium 93 octane gasoline.
Forget you already posted?
Dennis, I've been reading on this forum a long time and I think many would agree you provide more misinformation than any long running member here. You can't go into a single 3800 thread without you having written long paragraphs filled with awful advice. You seem to go by a lot of hearsay and don't really understand how motors actually work or what actually comes into play when going forced induction.
Everything is on hold til my health improves. Sorry everyone
well the m90 is on the 3800 and it moves air rather well for that.... Stepping it up a whole liter I would say drop that pulley size down and you should be able to keep up with what the motor needs
do what Robert Cope did with his 4.9L x-11, he converted it to a '95 LT1 computer with optisparc and DIS. Robert did a full buildout to it, taking it slightly farther than Rick Stewart did to his allante 4.9L setup, and found that the LT1 made tuning ALOT easier
he also has a 6800 rpm redline, and it pulls hard all the way to the redline
My dad's done that with both a 400 TPI Chevy and a Cadillac 500. It works, but I don't like distributors. I have no doubt that it made tuning easier, but at this point the optispark is an orphan child and support is going away.
There are 24x reluctor kits on the market to run Gen I SBC's using LS1 electronics (including coil per cylinder). I'd go for that.
Does Robert have a dyno sheet for his 4.9?
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-29-2011).]
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08:00 AM
Rhino88gt Member
Posts: 718 From: Maumelle, AR Registered: Jun 2003
It was NOT too small!! I bought the setup from them and installed it in my 86gt 4spd car. There is a thread in the archives that covered the install. I never finished the car because it had driveability issues but the few times I ran it the car pulled HARD to 6500. To answer the question as to which turbo it was, it came out of GM diesel (6.5 I think). I believe countach711 is the member who owns the setup now so someone could ask him.
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02:31 PM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15145 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
Very interesting project and I applaud your fabrication efforts. While I am a big fan of boosted engines I am not sure what your expectation is for the Eaton M90 supercharger. The displacement of that supercharger is only 90 cubic inches. Here you are putting it on a 300 C.I. engine. You might get some boost out of it but it could have trouble keeping up and end up being a restriction. I would go to the Eaton website and take a look at the supercharger maps. That should give you some idea of how the M90 will work. Prediction: Maybe 4-5 psi of boost max but still enough give a significant power increase. If all doesn't look good then you could always step up to the Eaton M112 supercharger. That's a larger unit and should work super. Another area to address is reprogramming for extra fuel and moving the timing table values to the left by a factor of two. Then installing new timing numbers for advance and retard in the right positions. This will allow the use of a 2 BAR MAP sensor so you will have proper timing under all manifold pressures.. The table that you want to look at is the RPM vs manifold vacuum/boost vs timing. Be prepared to run only premium 93 octane gasoline.
quote
Dennis, I've been reading on this forum a long time and I think many would agree you provide more misinformation than any long running member here. You can't go into a single 3800 thread without you having written long paragraphs filled with awful advice. You seem to go by a lot of hearsay and don't really understand how motors actually work or what actually comes into play when going forced induction.
Sorry everyone
I'll bet that I've done more restorations, engine builds, engine work and swaps than you have. There are three cars here right now with boosted engines al built/set up by myself and they run great . If you really believe that a 90 cubic inch supercharger on a 300 Cubic in engine is optimal, then keep the project going and but to be fair about it, first call Eaton Techical services. See if they verify that boosting with a supercharger and operating it in the efficient region will require at least a 112 c.i. supercharger for 4.9L's. . If my advise is bad don't take meaningless pot shots, ask the experts. BTW have you considered the themal efficiency of the M90 over the intended operating range?
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 12-30-2011).]
I'll bet that I've done more restorations, engine builds, engine work and swaps than you have. There are three cars here right now with boosted engines al built/set up by myself and they run great . If you really believe that a 90 cubic inch supercharger on a 300 Cubic in engine is optimal, then keep the project going and but to be fair about it, first call Eaton Techical services. See if they verify that boosting with a supercharger and operating it in the efficient region will require at least a 1112 c.i. supercharger for 4.9L's. . If my advise is bad don't take meaningless pot shots, ask the experts. BTW have you considered the themal efficiency of the M90 over the intended operating range?
1112 ci huh?
Quoted from Eatons page
"The Eaton Supercharger Model 90 is designed for 3.0L to 5.0L passenger car and light truck engines, but may also be suitable for other engine sizes, depending on total system performance requirements. "
Did you even read my math? It's just as well suited to the 4.9l as it is the 3800
The 4.9l VE is only about 70% even with opened up exhaust and hogged out ports
150cid per revolution x .7 = 85cid
Most 3800NA are almost 80% with the same simple mods
That's about 90cid
The m90 moves 90 ci of air per revolution. The stock pulley will be more than capable of moving enough air
It is indisputable
In 1989 my 87GT was rolling around with a 4.1, hell I was probably the first one to put a Cadillac motor in a Fiero. I've had 43 Fieros to my name. I'm an ASE Master Certified Technician and a WABO certified field structural welder. I've been in the field my entire life all 56 years and it has been nothing but my life. I've had 3 back surgeries because I've worked myself to death. I'm sorry, I know more than you do.
[This message has been edited by FriendOfYours (edited 12-29-2011).]
Wont a 350hp compressor make 350hp whether its on a 3.8l or a 4.9l? People don't put 2.5" pulleys on them cause of the high rpm, they will make too much heat from the massive amount of pressure it creates. As long as the engines have similar VE then a certain amount of air should make about the same power on either.
Wont a 350hp compressor make 350hp whether its on a 3.8l or a 4.9l? People don't put 2.5" pulleys on them cause of the high rpm, they will make too much heat from the massive amount of pressure it creates. As long as the engines have similar VE then a certain amount of air should make about the same power on either.
right?
I don't want to get too far off topic as the person who started this thread obviously is above discussing other ideas and opinions. A supercharger can move more air with a smaller pulley but eventually you hit the law of diminishing returns. Past a given point the lobes spin the lobes so fast you get into a region where you will get more boost but in reality it is making just super heated thin air that will be of little value in making horsepower. Your point seems to center around the VE of the engine and this is a consideration but so is the thermal efficiency of the supercharger which is being ignored here in the discussion. It is likely that the appilcation of an Eaton M90 will produce boost on a 4.9L engine but how much and how efficient the set up will be are the questions tht I have. My approach on the 4.9L would be to add a turbo. Less trouble, lower cost and the potential to make more horsepower.
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09:35 AM
Raydar Member
Posts: 40730 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
I don't want to get too far off topic as the person who started this thread obviously is above discussing other ideas and opinions. A supercharger can move more air with a smaller pulley but eventually you hit the law of diminishing returns. Past a given point the lobes spin the lobes so fast you get into a region where you will get more boost but in reality it is making just super heated thin air that will be of little value in making horsepower. Your point seems to center around the VE of the engine and this is a consideration but so is the thermal efficiency of the supercharger which is being ignored here in the discussion. It is likely that the appilcation of an Eaton M90 will produce boost on a 4.9L engine but how much and how efficient the set up will be are the questions tht I have. My approach on the 4.9L would be to add a turbo. Less trouble, lower cost and the potential to make more horsepower.
I don't get how an engine with the same horsepower output as the 3800(naturally aspirated) would need to spin the blower any faster to create more power. Even if the 4.9 creates less back pressure on the m90 wouldn't 400cfm make the same power on either motor? I must be missing a key point.
quote
In this graph it shows with less boost pressure it will flow more, output less heat, rob less hp to spin it. ------------------ Turbo3800E85 5spd spec5 11.54@132.7
[This message has been edited by Justinbart (edited 12-30-2011).]
Wont a 350hp compressor make 350hp whether its on a 3.8l or a 4.9l?
Yes, *ASSUMING* that the engine is cammed for the right powerband to take advantage of the airflow. IE, the 4.9 needs to be cammed for a lower RPM powerband than the 3800 to produce the power that's available from an M90.
The low efficiency of the M90 is what really kills it.
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02:08 PM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
Yes, *ASSUMING* that the engine is cammed for the right powerband to take advantage of the airflow. IE, the 4.9 needs to be cammed for a lower RPM powerband than the 3800 to produce the power that's available from an M90.
The low efficiency of the M90 is what really kills it.
M90 efficiency is only low if the pressure ratio pushes it to be too low. Other than extreme ratios, its a fairly effective blower with a decent efficiency. ZZP has been to 500+bhp with a m90 more than a few times. Cobra mustangs commonly go to 600bhp with the 112. I would say its plenty possible to push the blower to its limit assuming correct pressure ratios regardless of rotor speed.
I don't want to get too far off topic as the person who started this thread obviously is above discussing other ideas and opinions. A supercharger can move more air with a smaller pulley but eventually you hit the law of diminishing returns. Past a given point the lobes spin the lobes so fast you get into a region where you will get more boost but in reality it is making just super heated thin air that will be of little value in making horsepower. Your point seems to center around the VE of the engine and this is a consideration but so is the thermal efficiency of the supercharger which is being ignored here in the discussion. It is likely that the appilcation of an Eaton M90 will produce boost on a 4.9L engine but how much and how efficient the set up will be are the questions tht I have. My approach on the 4.9L would be to add a turbo. Less trouble, lower cost and the potential to make more horsepower.
You just keep proving you have no idea what you are talking about. VE vs CI is directly related to how much blower you need. I will be spinning the SC the same speed as it would stock in the 3800 and be making nearly the same psi, cfm and outlet temps. So unless a 3.8pulley is out of the efficiency range of the m90 (obviously it isn't lol), then it is no problem.
The m90 is costing nothing besides the blower and 1/8" sheet. So about $150. No extra exhaust, outlet piping, no wastegate, no bov, no oil or water plumbing. Sounds easier now doesn't it?
[This message has been edited by FriendOfYours (edited 12-30-2011).]
You just keep proving you have no idea what you are talking about. VE vs CI is directly related to how much blower you need. I will be spinning the SC the same speed as it would stock in the 3800 and be making nearly the same psi, cfm and outlet temps. So unless a 3.8pulley is out of the efficiency range of the m90 (obviously it isn't lol), then it is no problem.
The m90 is costing nothing besides the blower and 1/8" sheet. So about $150. No extra exhaust, outlet piping, no wastegate, no bov, no oil or water plumbing. Sounds easier now doesn't it?
I would upgrade to headers as the stock manifolds would seem to be small when pushing more air though.
M90 efficiency is only low if the pressure ratio pushes it to be too low. Other than extreme ratios, its a fairly effective blower with a decent efficiency. ZZP has been to 500+bhp with a m90 more than a few times. Cobra mustangs commonly go to 600bhp with the 112. I would say its plenty possible to push the blower to its limit assuming correct pressure ratios regardless of rotor speed.
Of course it's *possible* to push it to its limits, but when the same boost and intercooling with a turbo gives you more power from a cooler intake charge with less cam, it's hard to keep making the case for the M90.
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08:21 AM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15145 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
You just keep proving you have no idea what you are talking about. VE vs CI is directly related to how much blower you need. I will be spinning the SC the same speed as it would stock in the 3800 and be making nearly the same psi, cfm and outlet temps. So unless a 3.8pulley is out of the efficiency range of the m90 (obviously it isn't lol), then it is no problem.
I wonder who is proving that they don't know anything about boosting? Where are your research numbers Mr Expert?
Lets take a look at the M90 graphs.
The peak flow of an Eaton M90 at 10 psi is 550 cfm. It must run at 10,000 RPM to do that.. The M90's peak range of efficiency at 5psi stretches from 390 M^3/hr to 480 M^3/hr, or about 230 CFM to 280CFM, To make 250 HP you will need 450 cfm of air (375 C3M) flow but it all about the pressure ratio of boost possible with the supercharger/engine combination. . If you also look at the Eaton compressor map you need a pressure ratios of 1.340 for 5 psi and 3.73 for 10 psi. According to what I read your applications falls way out of the efficiency range of the M90 and thats for the more efficeint genV which you do not have. Horsepower losses also need to be considered. It will take about 20 HP right off the top to drive the supercharger to get the airflow needed to get to 250 so thats power down the drain. Thats 70% of the power lost. Am I wrong about this? ------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 12-31-2011).]
