From measurements done here in the shop we have determined that the standard F-Body 3800 flywheel bolts will cause interference with the Fiero clutch disc. The problem stems from the fact that the 3800 flywheel is machined down nearly 1/4 " in thickness on 3800 stick swaps. This brings the bolt heads very close to the disc and it our case it touches the disc. In short the result is interference between the F-body bolt heads and the clutch disc. Need some bolt suggestions on locating 5/16 -18 flywheel bolts with wide flat and shallow heads (like the Fiero 2.8L has) or confirmation that the ARP's will work. Some guys reportedly use the ARP 234-1001 SBC cam bolts. So the other question I have is do the ARP's have smaller bolt heads that the F-Body bolts do and will they clear ther flywheel?
------------------ 87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's 4T65eHD 87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H " I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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02:56 PM
PFF
System Bot
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
Havent had problem with hardware store type bolts....
We were considering using Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store but the strongest grade that they carry is grade 8 and they may be a Chinese grade 8 ( actually grade 2) at that!! Flywheel bolts are typically grade 10 or 11. IMO Grade 8 will probably work OK but the clutch plate to flywheel bolt clearance issue is what we are most concerned with. Without a shorter or smaller bolt head it looks like there will be interference. I'm not much into sticks but my measurements would seem to indicate that other 3800SC manual swaps may have run into the same problem.
------------------ 87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's 4T65eHD 87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H " I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Get ARP small block chevy cam gear bolts they come in packages of three and fit and work fine. Dan
Those are the ARP #234-1001 pro series bolts w 191,000 lbs tensile strength. Thanks for confirming the fit. We'll try a couple of sets.
------------------ 87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's 4T65eHD 87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H " I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I got a set from David Kerr. Not sure if he is still in business..
David Kerr <dave@davidkerrassociates.com>
recommendations: ------- Hi Roderick,
Screw in each of your flywheel bolts with blue locktight and torque each of the bolts (with the washers on) to 19 ft. lbs. (or the metric equivalent). Make sure your at 19 ft. lbs. and not more than that amount.
Thank you,
-David -------
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01:12 PM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15867 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
I got a set from David Kerr. Not sure if he is still in business..
David Kerr <dave@davidkerrassociates.com>
recommendations: ------- Hi Roderick,
Screw in each of your flywheel bolts with blue locktight and torque each of the bolts (with the washers on) to 19 ft. lbs. (or the metric equivalent). Make sure your at 19 ft. lbs. and not more than that amount.
Thank you,
-David -------
Manual says that flywheel bolts torque spec is 50 psi. I thought that was a bit high and used 40PSI with red Loctite. Torquing to 19ft lbs sounds way too low. You've got to hold tons of force with that flywheel.
------------------ 87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles 87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H " I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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06:19 PM
Jul 27th, 2008
Fie Ro Member
Posts: 3735 From: Soest, The Netherlands Registered: Sep 2001
I agree 19 ft lbs sounds low, but it is also mentioned on the note that comes with the bolts...the manufacturer also states you MUST use the supplied special grade washers (to prevent possible brakage of the heads)..
thats all I know..
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11:06 AM
PFF
System Bot
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
So I ordered three packs of the ARP #234-1001 pro series bolts from summit. I think I might have found the discrepancy in the correct torque values.
Fie Ro you said:
quote
Originally posted by Fie Ro: I got a set from David Kerr. Not sure if he is still in business.. David Kerr <dave@davidkerrassociates.com> recommendations: Hi Roderick, Screw in each of your flywheel bolts with blue locktight and torque each of the bolts (with the washers on) to 19 ft. lbs. (or the metric equivalent). Make sure your at 19 ft. lbs. and not more than that amount. Thank you, David
Originally posted by fiero380: According to David Kerr "They must be 25mm long and have 2mm washers." I just got them from him since his price was good and he gave me the information. <dave@davidkerrassociates.com> if anyone else needs a set I believe he has some left.
Now I'm looking at a 3.4TDC swap thread by Darth Fiero. Here are some excerpts from that thread: Project 3.4 TDC / 4-speed muncie swap underway... - Pennock's Fiero Forum: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...0818-2-047231-3.html
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Install the flywheel, making sure to align the hole in the crank to the extra hole in the flywheel. Coat your new flywheel bolts with blue loctite, and install all of them and tighten by hand. Once all the bolts are hand tight, torque the bolts to 61 ft/lbs in a star pattern. Once the bolts are tightened, you can clean the flywheel with brake or carb cleaner and let dry.
and then
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero: If the alignment tool slides easily, you can now torque the pressure plate bolts to 18 ft/lbs, in a star pattern.
So can I ask you Fie Ro if perhaps you are referring to pressure plate bolt torque by accident? And FIEROFLYER can I ask you what do you torque the ARP #234-1001 pro series bolts to when used to attach the flywheel to the crank?
Thanks. I may be wrong but 19lbs sounds way to low for flywheel bolts.
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05:49 AM
Fie Ro Member
Posts: 3735 From: Soest, The Netherlands Registered: Sep 2001
Ok I dug up some old mail and put the 0.840 flywheel, Kerr's bolts and the original flexplate bolts on the table
Yes we are talking about a flywheel: ---- Hi Roderick,
Yes, I do sell the L67 flywheel bolts for the manual 3800 transmission/flywheel swap.
I just sold my last set of bolts yesterday and will be getting more in this week. The flywheel bolts come with matching washers and are $9.50 a set plus shipping. Shipping to the Netherlands is $5.90. Your total would be $15.40. ----
The flexplate bolts are 20mm total length, Kerr's bolts 32mm, Kerr's bolts have a thicker head and use a washer, the flexplate bolts do not use a washer
edit: it gets confusing...pressure plate, flexplate, flywheel...hope someone has "the" answers
[This message has been edited by Fie Ro (edited 08-03-2008).]
Originally posted by Fie Ro: I got a "set" from David Kerr. Not sure if he is still in business.
Fie Ro I'm still a bit confused. Here is a true or false question.
I, Fie Ro, received a set of ARP #234-1001 pro series bolts from David Kerr and using the special washers he also sent I attached my flywheel to my crankshaft with those 8 bolts and washers. I then torqued the ARP #234-1001 pro series bolts and washers to 19lbs.
True or False
And the next question. Fie Ro what did you use for pressure plate to flywheel bolts? Do you remember what you torqued those to? Thanks Fie Ro.
I usually torque to 40 PSI with strong bolts grade 8 or ARP ones if you try and torque to 40 PSI with the ones some manufacturers supply they will break at just over 20 PSI. The clutch assembly bolts get 15 PSI to the fly wheel. Dan
Thanks Dan, Is PSI equal to Foot Pounds? Or how do they convert? I thought PSI was Pounds per Square Inch. (This question will show my ignorance for sure!)
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03:34 PM
Fie Ro Member
Posts: 3735 From: Soest, The Netherlands Registered: Sep 2001
Originally posted by Bubbajuju: Fie Ro I'm still a bit confused. Here is a true or false question.
I, Fie Ro, received a set of ARP #234-1001 pro series bolts from David Kerr and using the special washers he also sent I attached my flywheel to my crankshaft with those 8 bolts and washers. I then torqued the ARP #234-1001 pro series bolts and washers to 19lbs.
True or False
And the next question. Fie Ro what did you use for pressure plate to flywheel bolts? Do you remember what you torqued those to? Thanks Fie Ro.
Some weird questioning.., anyway I just posted the facts that I know, No mentioning of ARP bolts when you read right...nothing is bolted together yet. Here are the pictures of my words maybe the larger clamp area of the washers requires less torque on the bolt ?
Fie Ro here's a question. I don't have a flywheel out handy to check but will those flywheel bolts and/or flexplate bolts also fit into your flywheel where the pressure plate mounts? I can't tell by the pics. Also if you compare the thickness of the flywheel to the thickness of the flexplate (at the crank mounting position) do your new bolts (from Kerr) look like they will be the correct length?
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06:25 PM
Fie Ro Member
Posts: 3735 From: Soest, The Netherlands Registered: Sep 2001
Originally posted by Bubbajuju: Fie Ro here's a question. I don't have a flywheel out handy to check but will those flywheel bolts and/or flexplate bolts also fit into your flywheel where the pressure plate mounts? I can't tell by the pics. Also if you compare the thickness of the flywheel to the thickness of the flexplate (at the crank mounting position) do your new bolts (from Kerr) look like they will be the correct length?
Yes I already had a quick look at both questions because I had them too I think the pressureplate side may have just a slight different (thread)size because the bolt just doesnt seem to fit. Hard to tell.
The flywheel flange is a lot thicker than the flexplate flange, despite it looks like the remaining thread length of the Kerr bolt may be just a little longer. shouldnt have an effect but I might check some moreof this tomorrow.
Quote (in quotations inside this quote) is from Ryan at Sinister Performance.
quote
Originally posted by Bubbajuju: "GM#24505092 Torque on these bolts is: 11 ft/lbs first pass. Then 50deg additional turn. You will need a torque angle meter to do this (auto parts stores should have one)."
These are the flex to yield bolts for the 3.8 camaro. They run about $5 each and come in packs of 5 from the GM dealer.
There is no clearance issue unless the bolts you use have a 1/2" thick head. Or the flywheel was machined incorrectly.
[This message has been edited by Bubbajuju (edited 09-10-2008).]
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11:08 PM
Sep 11th, 2008
IXSLR8 Member
Posts: 674 From: Post Falls, ID, USA Registered: Sep 2004
The grade L9 bolts I have been using are a result of the research I did when I needed bolts for my 3800SC 312HP swap.
I've sold, shoot, lots and lots of sets to those that needed them and never had any come back or heard of any failures to date. I've used them with aluminum and steel flywheels with no interference issues. Lloyde of Fast Fieros out in Texas has used them with great success. There are a variety of bolts out there that can work, but they are hard to source and you want to make sure they are of a good US grade. Just to be clear, the flywheel bolts I use are not ARP brand bolts though what they sell is excellent quality. Also, the length of my bolts are based on taking in consideration of the thickness of the crankshaft flange, flywheel and washer under 19ft. lbs of torque. Others have torqued the bolts significantly more and they have worked fine.
The last time I looked at the ARP website regarding Flywheel bolt info, the issue ARP raises with flywheel bolts is not "clamp load" but rather shear strength. You want your flywheel bolts to adequately handle the sheer forces produced. It was pretty informative if the article is still there.
It is true that I send out the manufacturers notes regarding the torque specs at 19ft lbs with the special washers. That's what the manufacturer recommended so that's what I send out with the bolts. My 312HP series II 3800 never came apart with the bolts torqued to 19flt lbs under WOT and hard burn outs. So, the bolts I use met what I was looking for in my swap. I'm using the same brand and grade on my N* V8 Getrag swap.
Hope that helps, eh.
--Dave Kerr dave@davidkerrassociates.com
[This message has been edited by IXSLR8 (edited 09-11-2008).]
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02:51 AM
vamper Member
Posts: 291 From: belvidere illinois 61008 Registered: Dec 2005
well the post that is linked is my post and i have your bolts and they all broke, im not saying its anyones fault but i would like to figure out how/why this happened and fix it so i can get the flywheel back on and drive around. I used the washers, and only went to about 35ft lbs, no loctite but im glad it made it much easier to get the broken bolts out. I will be going to the hardware store looking for the highest quality bolts i can buy and i will try them in the evening.
They are an imperial not metric bolt so just go to Brafasco and buy grade 8 bolts and torque them to 40 ft lbs and be done with that, I have tried the other bolts that are sold with the fly wheels by some places and found them to be too weak. Dan
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07:34 AM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15867 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
When we did the flywheel install, we found that there was interference between the 3800 flywheel bolts and the clutch disc springs. We tried the ARP bolts and they seemed to cure this problem asn they have smaller heads. As for torque 40psi w Loctite was what we used and that's 10psi below what the manual specifies. So far the car has over 1000 miles on it and so far so good. Time will tell.
------------------ 87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles 87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H " I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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08:35 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14284 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
well the post that is linked is my post and i have your bolts and they all broke, im not saying its anyones fault but i would like to figure out how/why this happened and fix it so i can get the flywheel back on and drive around. I used the washers, and only went to about 35ft lbs, no loctite but im glad it made it much easier to get the broken bolts out. I will be going to the hardware store looking for the highest quality bolts i can buy and i will try them in the evening.
vamper I thought you bought the ARP bolts and not Dave's set.
When we did the flywheel install, we found that there was interference between the 3800 flywheel bolts and the clutch disc springs. We tried the ARP bolts and they seemed to cure this problem asn they have smaller heads. As for torque 40psi w Loctite was what we used and that's 10psi below what the manual specifies. So far the car has over 1000 miles on it and so far so good. Time will tell.
I hope the ARP bolts work fine for anyone using them. If I hadn't over torqued the crap out of them they probably would have been fine. It's not rocket science. There's 8 of them. I understand most of the failures involving them have been from them backing out from no loctite or proper torque. I still don't see how there is a clearance issue. With a spec 3 six puck disc I had near 3/4" from the face of where the bolts seat to the springs.
nope i got the the bolts pictured in this thread, and im fairly sure i got them from dave as i have never seen bolts like that around here( it was nearly a year ago since i had the flywheel and everything assembled.) im going to head to the hardware store in the next few mins and just find a super strong bolt.
nope i got the the bolts pictured in this thread, and im fairly sure i got them from dave as i have never seen bolts like that around here( it was nearly a year ago since i had the flywheel and everything assembled.) im going to head to the hardware store in the next few mins and just find a super strong bolt.
You wouldn't be pretty sure you got them from Dave Kerr. You would have had to email him and send him the money for them. He is the only person I know of that sells his bolt kits unless you bought them from someone who bought them from Dave. It would be important for this thread to clarify that. The other bolts in question are the American Racing Product bolts. Dave does not offer those in his kits as far as I know. It's the ARP bolts that I over- torqued and broke.
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04:23 PM
vamper Member
Posts: 291 From: belvidere illinois 61008 Registered: Dec 2005
well i checked my pm's and my email just to make sure (couldnt find anything) but i am almost positive that i got the bolts from dave, they are the exact same bolts with the same markings and washers. I got these over a year ago so im not sure why i dont have contact info, but i remember somebody recommending him for the bolts and i contacted him and that was it. Im not angry or anything, just think its important for people to know they can/will break and im not sure why. I have new bolts from the local hardware shop and hope to have no problems with them
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05:50 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14284 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
well i checked my pm's and my email just to make sure (couldnt find anything) but i am almost positive that i got the bolts from dave, they are the exact same bolts with the same markings and washers. I got these over a year ago so im not sure why i dont have contact info, but i remember somebody recommending him for the bolts and i contacted him and that was it. Im not angry or anything, just think its important for people to know they can/will break and im not sure why. I have new bolts from the local hardware shop and hope to have no problems with them
Gotcha. "with washers" makes it sound like the same to me. Here's the email from Dave to Fie Ro.
"Hi Roderick, Screw in each of your flywheel bolts with blue locktight and torque each of the bolts (with the washers on) to 19 ft. lbs. (or the metric equivalent). Make sure your at 19 ft. lbs. and not more than that amount. Thank you, -David'
quote
Originally posted by vamper: no thread locker, but it will be on next time. and they were torqued, i think im going to the local hardware store and check what they have avalible and buy the best/most expensive bolts i can find. what is the proper torque, i have read a dozen post saying diffirent things, i found a nice spot in the middle of 35lbs compared to the 19 and 50lbs.
Maybe 19lbs is the sweet spot for them.
If I could roll back time I would use the GM flywheel bolts. And definitely use Red loctite.
[This message has been edited by Bubbajuju (edited 09-11-2008).]
My records show that I shipped a set of flywheel bolts and washers to Todd on January 7th, 07. So, Todd has a set of the bolts that I use. If Todd is "Vamper" then this would be the first circumstance that I'm aware of that a bolt failure has occurred with the 3800 swap using my bolts.
I understand at the time that Todd had a flywheel cut and ready to go and was having a hard time finding bolts that would not sheer off. I don't know if Todd or someone else that Todd knew had sheer problems with bolts as it sounds like he may have had experience with other bolts that sheered off.
I'd really like to figure out your context/conditions as I don't want to send out bolts that could sheer off within a manufacturers specs. I'd say that torquing the bolts past 19ft. lbs. was the cause of the failure.
If you look at common bolt torque specs for an automotive/aircraft quality grade 8 in a 5/16x18 you will find a recommended range from approximately 22-24 ft lbs of torque. As I mention, mine are grade 9 and come with a specific manufacturer recommended torque spec.
I'll send you another set of bolts, if you like, but you'll need to torque them to 19 ft. lbs. Should they break at 19 ft. lbs., then we know there is a problem with the bolts or there is something not quite right within your swap specs such as a flywheel mounting flange area being to thick or....
