From my end, I'm still getting hot. Here's a summary of what's been checked/done so far:

-brand new radiator installed
-high cfm puller fan running up front (on with key)
-air dam is installed under car
-all lines have been checked and are flowing freely
-bleeder valves installed in three high points of system for air bleeding
-system completely purged of air professionally
-water pump checked for flow
-flow direction confirmed
-tried running without engine cover and without front hood (over radiator)
-plugs checked for lean burning (they're fine)
-engine timed professionally (twice)
-temp guage checked for accuracy with IR guage on the engine
-new t'stat installed. I've tried 160, 180, and I've currently got no stat installed.

Symptoms:

-Car gets hot (235F+) within 20 mins of regular driving
-Car gets hotter at highway speeds faster
-Engine will cool very quickly when turned off and I allow the water pump and fan to run. Temp will drop from 240F to 170F within five minutes


I'm currently exploring the possibility that the guy that installed the engine incorrectly marked TDC and my timing is off. I've got no symptoms to point in this direction (bad running engine, pinging, etc) but I'm at my wit's end and I'm checking everything. My mechanic will verify TDC at the same time he replaces my timing cover early this week and re-time the engine.

I've also heard that new engines require a "break in" period where they run hotter than normal. Perhaps that, in addition to a slightly off timing, may be the culprit. At any rate, I'm getting really, really PO'd at this whole situation.

I'll update once I find out more.

[This message has been edited by BullRider (edited 07-08-2007).]

quote Originally posted by BullRider: From my end, I'm still getting hot. Here's a summary of what's been checked/done so far: -brand new radiator installed -high cfm puller fan running up front (on with key) -air dam is installed under car -all lines have been checked and are flowing freely -bleeder valves installed in three high points of system for air bleeding -system completely purged of air professionally -water pump checked for flow -flow direction confirmed -tried running without engine cover and without front hood (over radiator) -plugs checked for lean burning (they're fine) -engine timed professionally (twice) -temp guage checked for accuracy with IR guage on the engine -new t'stat installed. I've tried 160, 180, and I've currently got no stat installed. Symptoms: -Car gets hot (235F+) within 20 mins of regular driving -Car gets hotter at highway speeds faster -Engine will cool very quickly when turned off and I allow the water pump and fan to run. Temp will drop from 240F to 170F within five minutes I'm currently exploring the possibility that the guy that installed the engine incorrectly marked TDC and my timing is off. I've got no symptoms to point in this direction (bad running engine, pinging, etc) but I'm at my wit's end and I'm checking everything. My mechanic will verify TDC at the same time he replaces my timing cover early this week and re-time the engine. I've also heard that new engines require a "break in" period where they run hotter than normal. Perhaps that, in addition to a slightly off timing, may be the culprit. At any rate, I'm getting really, really PO'd at this whole situation. I'll update once I find out more.

All makes sense except the fact that it gets hotter driving down the road.To me that sounds like the fan has nothing to do with it. For further advice, please insert new picture of wife in hidden gallery...j/k
.
.
.

I would look into the fuel mixture at cruising speed. What carb or injection system are you running. I would also check total timing at 2500 RPMs, not just idle. I could care less what my initial timing is, I want it at 34 degrees at 2500 RPMs. My last V8 used the stock radiator for a while and would only overheat when I was sitting in summer Atlantic City traffic back in my gambling days.
Dave

Edit - nevermind.
(Redundant air dam comment. Sorry.)

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 07-08-2007).]

BullRider and Saxman, do you have pictures of your radiators installed (from the front as well as the back)? I wonder if some of the seal material to keep air from blowing around the radiator is missing. Air will take the path of least resistance, so there needs to be a barrier to ensure air must go through the radiator. The sides and top must be blocked off- bottom is blocked off by the airdam.

Without these, the hot air from the backside of the radiator can also be pulled back around to the front and sucked back it.

Here are some pics of my air dam when I installed a 26x19 radiator for my SBC.
Top seal on radiator:

Side seal on radiator

Radiator boxed in on underside:

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: All makes sense except the fact that it gets hotter driving down the road.To me that sounds like the fan has nothing to do with it. For further advice, please insert new picture of wife in hidden gallery...j/k . . . I would look into the fuel mixture at cruising speed. What carb or injection system are you running. I would also check total timing at 2500 RPMs, not just idle. I could care less what my initial timing is, I want it at 34 degrees at 2500 RPMs. My last V8 used the stock radiator for a while and would only overheat when I was sitting in summer Atlantic City traffic back in my gambling days. Dave

I thought about mixtures at cruising speed, but wouldn't that show up on my plugs as a white residue indicative of a lean mixture? I checked the plugs, they were fine... nice and brown. I'm running an Edelbrock Performer carb. You can't see too much of it in this pic, but its there:

In regards to sealing the rad, while I agree it would be a good idea, and would probably help a bit with cooling at a standstill, the fact that the engine will cool rapidly when shut down (235F to 170F in less than five minutes) leads me to think that the cooling system is fine and its an engine gremlin that is the issue here... either fuel mixtures or ignition timing.

Has anyone ever heard of manifold gaskets being installed incorrectly? I've heard a rumor that if they are installed upside down or backwards or whatever that they can restrict flow of coolant through the engine passages. But then again, the fact that I can cool the engine down so quickly with it off leads me to think that they're just fine.

I'm getting pretty upset here.

Oh, and BMWGURU... I promise that if and when we (as a collective group) solve the overheating issue, there will be a host of very juicy photos posted to not only the two public "Girls with/Girls without" forums, but to the hidden gallery as well. That's a promise!

Bullrider, bear with me as this probably is a stupid question, but how is that motor getting cold air to the carb. The reason I ask that is I had a supercharged rotary rear engine set-up that had similar problems like yours (rotary motors run very hot to begin with, exhaust 2000 degrees plus!). We were using a simple open filter design similar to what you have. What was happening was at highway speeds enough heat was obviously stagnating in the engine bay with the motor trying to breathe this already "hot air." The mixture was going lean at freeway speeds and giving us hotter temp.s like you are seeing. I ended up building a cold air box at the carb. and routing two 4 inch dia. tubes with placement in a dry "clean" air pick-up area. Worked like a charm. Car would stay at 190 to 195 on the highway and hardly ever broke 200 even in 16 miles of traffic at a Carlisle show. By the way that car was using the stock Fiero v6 radiator and fan along wth the stock 13B rotary water pump.
Hope you guys can get this all worked out. I've followed this thread right along from the beginning. Might do an LS4 v8 sway down the road, soooo... you're paving the way.

Bullrider, I had that same carb on my last V8 Fiero. If you didn't play with the jetting at all, it will run lean at cruise speeds and rich at WOT. That was the way mine ran out of the box. The edelbrock was way too complicated of a carb for me, so when I did this conversion, I decided to go with four Weber 44IDF carbs...basically set up as eight individual throttle bodies. They are so sensitive that the slightest jetting changes the whole profile of the carb....idle jets, main jets, emulsion tubes, syncronizing linkages....oh wait, I'm getting off topic.
Anyway, some parts I got from Summit Racing came in damaged, so I am awaiting replacements to get my Fiero back on the road. In the meantime, I'm going to lean out my idle jets (no more flames, dammit), and build a shroud around the radiator. I have a feeling I'll be able to take the car to Maryland for a day trip yet!
Dave

Saxman and Bullrider, Between the three of us hopefully we'll figure this one out. How is it the Florida guys are running at 180 degrees? Anyway, here is a little update at my end...
I never had overheating issues until it got really hot out up here. This is also the first year my Fiero can be driven. I took my Fiero out for a ride today after I completely redid the fuel system. I wanted to simulate traffic...that is where my running hot condition occurs. As soon as I get moving, I'm down to 180 degrees again. So I got it up to 180 then parked it and let it idle while I adjusted the four carburetors. It took about 25-30 minutes of idling to get up to 235 degrees before I shut it down. Mostly it stayed at 220 degrees...which I can live with. I calculated that boil over will happen around 250-260 degrees. I also noticed that I have very little fan flow through my vent in my front hood. All the air is blowing out the bottom of the car. As soon as I opened the hood, I could feel the wave of hot air from the radiator. The cooling issue did not change with opening of the hood, so I figure that my problem is not there. I also noticed that hard acceleration will cause the temp to go up quickly, but only to 220. I also get a huge cloud of smoke at this time, but I think that is just the tires (lol).
I really think that the shroud around the radiator will help some in my case...and get the air to exit the vent in the hood. My shop has been beyond busy, so I haven't really had the time to give to my car these past two weeks. My wife has helped me sand the car down to get it ready for paint (see dirty pictures thread), but I'll be going down to the shop on Sunday to hopefully get my car traffic ready.
Dave
ps. One other thing that will probably help is using an oil cooler and synthetic oil. I can't run synthetic yet as to my approx 500 miles since rebuild....although I have changed the oil 4 times since March....and used a lot of gas.

I just got back from the boat/beach vacation. I am off work until the 19th, so it's time to figure this thing out.

I'll start with flushing the air out, then it sounds like cold air intake (I have all the parts) and a fan shroud might do the trick. Mainly, I need to get the air out and a good mix of anti-freeze in there to try it out.

Thanks for keeping this one going while I was gone.

And, Dave, thanks for the dirty pix thread! Wanna meet us at NRC Solomons on Tuesday night? I can get you a 3-room cottage for under $200 (near the pools, beach, mini golf, driving range and a boat ramp).

Well I played around with my timing and it is running hotter now, before it was running rich. Black soot on the plugs, now its nice and brown but it does get warmer. Its nothing the fan cant pull off of it. Cant drive it much right now because of the body work needs done first. The main thing I tried to do was make sure all of the hoses are as straight as possible and keep them away from other parts of the motor that get hot. My cross over pipe is up where the tension rods are in under the glass. Probably 2 inches above the valve covers, never gets anywhere near the header. The biggest restriction I have is the in-line filler but its not any tighter than what a thermostat would be when it is open. I also installed a new hood with a large vent for the radiator. I used old hoses to seal the radiator to make sure hot air didn't get pulled into the radiator. My shroud is in good shape and the new hood seals to it.
I have one of Norms front hoods on the car now.

When I play with the car on Sunday, I am going to try a few different timing settings. I like the timing where it is at, but maybe I am too far advanced increasing cylinder temps. I just rejetted the carbs again, so she is running pretty good now.
Sax, during the week is bad for me and my wife. The shop would fall apart if we both weren't there. We'll make a weekend trip sometime soon, though.
Jake, at least I feel better knowing it's not just us Yankees having overheating problems.
I hope my turbo 3800 doesn't have these issues when it's all done.
Dave

Well, Jake, if I make it down to Lakeland after (the first) retirement, I know where to go drink a few while beating on these cars! They just asked me to perform with the Airmen of Note for a while, so I can't retire just yet. The best way to describe it is that it's like having Lynard Skynard ask me to join them for a tour. These guys are the best jazz performers around and I have been listening to them since high school. I start performing with them in August.

Dave, my schedule is about to get real busy, but it may also mean some gigs around NY or NJ. Ya never know!

Anyway, I'll let you guys know what is up with the V8 soon. I have the feeling I should find a way to put a timing guage on there since there has never been one...

I set my timing at the flywheel under the car. Just mark TDC at a good point and then use an advance style timing light. I can't see down the front of the motor too well.
Dave

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 07-14-2007).]

Time for an update. I'm at the shop and thought I'd be driving the V8 home today. I finally have her running at 220 at a standstill. My carbs are just about 100% in sync and then chaos strikes. To get my temp down, I added two bottles of water wetter. That seemed to keep my Fiero temp where I wanted it...180 down the road and 220 in traffic. Well, that great product ate through the threadsealer on my water pump nipple causing a major leak. I believe I used "Indian Head Shellac" on that fitting. Normally, that stuff is great, but I'll see if threadlocker (blue) holds up to the water wetter.
While I'm waiting for the Fiero to cool down, I'm frustrated, so I'm going to pull a head on a customer's VW Jetta to get my mind away from the Fiero right now.
I'll update later.
Dave

May allpy, may not?
Is there any spot in the system that is higher than all the rest, what wtih your swap not being stock etc? If so and it's a hose, you may want to cut the hose and add a short section ( 3" ? ) of steel or brass tubing with a small petcock fitting welded in that will let you bleed the system at that high point. I made one like that for Fiat 124 spider, put it on one of the heater core hoses. It really got all the air and did so better than jacking the front way the heck up in the air. And when I bleed it, I out a long clear tube on that petcock and tapped it to the windshiel so I caoul watch the bubbles and exit and then stop coming

bump...
hey do we have to close this thread because Sax sold the car? The water wetter seemed to do pretty good. I haven't been able to drive the car much as I am preping for paint and it always seems to rain at some point during the day.
Francis, extra bleeders in the systems are a good idea, but not needed if the fill is at the highest point. Some BMW's have two bleeders and I rarely use them because I fill it with the vacuum tool.
Dave

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 07-20-2007).]

I imagine wiccantoy will be posting here as he solves the heating prob. He has another engine waiting to go in if needed.

The car goes tomorrow. A bitter sweet sale -that's for sure. I have been defeated by the mighty Fiero!

Now - on to the Fino! She has been waiting patiently. With Archie's 4-core radiator, she seems to stay cool enough, but with my luck, I'll be back posting here AGAIN!

Now, if I even make it up to Jersey, I won't have to waste our time on my car. But - if you make it down here - you have the Finiero to deal with...

Sorry to hera it beat you, just one last question, and too late at that, when you built that SBC did you have the block and heads tanked and was it done the right way with no fezze out plugs and oil of the oil plugs removed etc?

------------------
[IMG]



Trueleo.com/fiero.htm
RSpiderII@aol.com

I bought it from "Yons" at Rons Racing in WV. He said there was a brand new Vortec headed GM crate engine in there when I bought it, so I wouldn't believe anything he said about the engine (Or the rest of the car, for that matter). It's basically an LM1 like my Fino. At least now I know how to identify Vortec heads! When I called him on it, he told me not to call again.

I did pull the intake and re-install it, but that is as far into the engine as I got. I hope I have more time to spend on the Fino than I did on the purple V8's recent heating problem! At least I know the Fino's heating prob was fixed when I first got it.

hmm... nothing like having an unknown factor in there to amke you wonder. Be bummer if all your efforts went for naught because is all gummed up inside. Well at least it wasnt becuase you were trying to save a few bucks. It's a surprising how many folks will do all kinds of mods/rebuilds to old engines, send lots of $$$, but won't bother to get the block tanked first. Anyway Sax, good luck with the other car, hope you can make the next northern Va meet we setup

------------------
[IMG]



Trueleo.com/fiero.htm
RSpiderII@aol.com

quote Originally posted by Francis T: hope you can make the next northern Va meet we setup

Me, too. Now I have to find the tail lights that Archie sent me to get the Fino back on the streets...

I found another thing that I wasn't expecting to find. Being that the engine install was very recent, the upper cooling hose shifted a little bit and was 7mm higher than the fill point. I added a second brace to keep it 10mm lower than the highest point and the temp seemed to be more consistant. The water wetter did help a lot, but anything that was sealed with indian head shellac leaked. I replaced the sealant with Mercedes aluminum sealant ($30.00 a tube) and it is perfect.....now on to the paint!
Dave

Got an update from my end of things...

Going to take the car out this AM to see if this is the problem or not. I did a bunch of research into water pumps and from what I've found out, you need a minimum of 35gpm to keep a SBC cool under normal driving. The wonderful people at Lordco didn't really listen to me when I asked for a street use pump, and sold me a Moroso racing pump. That thing puts out about 19gpm.

I just invested another $400 in a high-flow electric pump (40gpm). That thing moves water like you wouldn't believe! Just installed it yesterday and I'm going to take it out on the road this AM to see if thats the issue.

If you're running an electric water pump, check the specs and make sure its putting out! Mechanical pumps shouldn't be an issue at all.

quote Originally posted by BullRider: I just invested another $400 in a high-flow electric pump (40gpm). That thing moves water like you wouldn't believe! Just installed it yesterday and I'm going to take it out on the road this AM to see if thats the issue. If you're running an electric water pump, check the specs and make sure its putting out! Mechanical pumps shouldn't be an issue at all.

What pump did you purchase? I've run a Moroso (PT# 63555) and the stock radiator (no A/C) for years with no issue...until I put a higher compression engine in the car. After that, my coolant temps shot up to 220/ 230 degrees F. I just purchased an Archie V8 radiator and hope that that cures the problem.

I was reading on the back of the different coolant containers at my shop the boil over specs and the chemicals used. I'll edit the proper numbers on Monday, but I believe that the normal green coolant boils over at 268 degrees with a 15lb cap. Mercedes coolant (which I use in my Fiero) boils over at 274 degrees with a 15lb cap. VW red boils over at 277 with a 15lb cap and BMW blue boils over at the same as standard green. Porsche yellow I thought was the same as Mercedes yellow, but the chemical makeup is totally different. VW red coolant will turn to a solid "chia pet" when it leaks....very good for coolant leak diagnosis and great boil over temps.
So exactly when is it technically overheating?
I've also found the water wetter to help greatly in my case. There is another product called "purple ice" that is supposed to do the same thing.
Dave

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 08-18-2007).]

I hope those numbers are in Celcius, cause if not you got it wrong. std green prestone with a 15 lb cap will not boil til 265F with a 50/50 mix. No coolant additive will lower the boiling point, and if it does, it's useless.

your numbers don't convert either, so I'm hopin you just hit the 1 instead of the 2..... (I've been known to do that alot)

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun: I hope those numbers are in Celcius, cause if not you got it wrong. std green prestone with a 15 lb cap will not boil til 265F with a 50/50 mix. No coolant additive will lower the boiling point, and if it does, it's useless. your numbers don't convert either, so I'm hopin you just hit the 1 instead of the 2..... (I've been known to do that alot)

Damn, I think I had one too many beers today. Yeah, I hit the one instead of two. I'll correct the change.
Dave

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: Damn, I think I had one too many beers today. Yeah, I hit the one instead of two. I'll correct the change. Dave

hehe, well for a change I didn;t have any thing to drink today, to busy prepping th eboat for the vacation in 2 days...

------------------
Tom
88 GT 2.8l 5spd
76 30' ChrisCraft Tournament S/F
who has time for anything else?
Vodka: it's not just for breakfast!!

So, did you guys get your overheating problems fixed? Haven't heard from Bullrider...

Oh, Happy New Year!

Bullrider, Saxman, and others listening in. I may have missed it earlier in this thread, but my 87 Gt 350 has the inner baffles removed on the insides of the the grills. Just rivets to drill out carefully and they are off. I was a little wary of this when I bought the car and went out and bought an extra set of grills with the baffles still installed, but never put the new ones on. I thought it would be too much exposure to the weather, but I've seen no adverse effects from the exposure. I drive this car every day and never have overheating issues, even with the a/c in stop-and-go traffic and 90+ degree summer weather. If this has already been covered I'm sorry to rehash it. Good luck with the car. I will read further posts.

------------------
Tom
Suffolk, Va
87 Gt 2.8-5spd
87 Gt 350-5spd
88 T-top coupe 2.5-5spd

Thanks, GT7. I did drive it with the grills off and it made no difference in mine before I sold it. I am sure it helps somewhat, though, considering you are getting fresher air that way.

Thanks for bringing that up. I may need it once I get the V8 Fino back on the road (soon).

Hello, gents! Long time no see! Been busy with life and another project car, but I finally managed to allocate a bit of time and energy into the Countach last week.

NO MORE OVERHEATING!

Turns out that FieroGuru was right! My issue was a combination of air flow through the rad, a crappy rad fan, and no shroud.

Here is what I did: First off, I grabbed a new rad fan with integrated shroud from the parts yard next door. $25 and it fits over my rad with only about 1/4" exposed on the left and right sides. Next, I reworked my chin spoiler so that it sealed tightly against the bottom of the radiator. Foam tape at the joints sealed it up nicely. Last of all, I added some flexible rubber matting around the edges of the rad to ensure that no air was flowing around the sides of the rad, increasing air pressure behind the rad and reducing the effectiveness of it.

The result... (drum roll please)

I cruised for 45 minutes last night at 165degrees around town. I bombed up the mountain where I live at high rpms in third gear and only got it up to 185degrees. Good enough for me!

I can't say how relieved I am to have this issue licked. It makes driving the car a lot less stressful! The only thing that I want to do now is either reorient my carb forward/back so that I don't get power loss under hard acceleration/deceleration, or put in a fuel injection system.

First things first... time for some Victoria, BC spring driving!

quote Originally posted by BullRider: Hello, gents! Long time no see! Been busy with life and another project car, but I finally managed to allocate a bit of time and energy into the Countach last week. NO MORE OVERHEATING! Turns out that FieroGuru was right! My issue was a combination of air flow through the rad, a crappy rad fan, and no shroud. Here is what I did: First off, I grabbed a new rad fan with integrated shroud from the parts yard next door. $25 and it fits over my rad with only about 1/4" exposed on the left and right sides. Next, I reworked my chin spoiler so that it sealed tightly against the bottom of the radiator. Foam tape at the joints sealed it up nicely. Last of all, I added some flexible rubber matting around the edges of the rad to ensure that no air was flowing around the sides of the rad, increasing air pressure behind the rad and reducing the effectiveness of it. The result... (drum roll please) I cruised for 45 minutes last night at 165degrees around town. I bombed up the mountain where I live at high rpms in third gear and only got it up to 185degrees. Good enough for me! I can't say how relieved I am to have this issue licked. It makes driving the car a lot less stressful! The only thing that I want to do now is either reorient my carb forward/back so that I don't get power loss under hard acceleration/deceleration, or put in a fuel injection system. First things first... time for some Victoria, BC spring driving!

Almost everybody I've talked to that has cooling problems also has a kit car body on their car. Almost every kit car eliminates the ducting & incomming air flow that the Fiero was designed with. Lambos are the worst for trying to get air to go thru the radiator.

I'd highly recommend that finish the job by closing off the radiator shroud where you have the little gaps. It will help a lot when Summer comes.

Fuel injection will help you get a lot better gas mileage.

Archie

I am glad your cooling issue has been resolved!

Any recommendations for a fuel injection system that is as close to "bolt-on" as possible?

Great to see your success! The purple V8 has been sold for a long time, but I am working on the V8 Fino soon.

She runs between 200 and 220 right now - in the winter time. I need to do what you did and see what happens before the summer gets here!

Thanks for posting!

Change your login to something like saxmaninheat overheatedsax. It's been one long hot time for you huh

Yeah -but I wonder if my temp gauge is calibrated right. Since the Fino has a Norskog digital dash that was installed by GT40Cory, I doubt it was.

I bought a mechanical temp unit so I'll try that out as soon as this Formula is back on the road. Hmmm - I wonder if the Formula will have a heating problem, too!

Thanks for the encouragement, FrancisT! (Maybe I just need a coated Trueleo exhaust manifold...)

my V8 didn't start running hot until the ambient temp went over 80*F. I'm also pushing out a little more ooomph than the average V8, so I kind of expect to run a little hotter. Once I gt my car back from the body shop, I am going to take a closer look at the radiator ducting. If it runs hot this summer, I'll see about adding a second rear radiator in one of the quarters. A Jetta or Porsche Boxster secondary radiator should fit nicely.
Dave

------------------

1987 GT (my toy-see above), 1987 GT (wife's toy), 1986 SE soon to be VR6, certified master technician/shop owner
www.njautobahn.com