Just thought I would confirm that the samurai is working perfectly...it was around 65 degrees today, warmest it has been since I did the headgasket.I was towing my trailer with about 750lbs onboard, at 65mph on the highway for 24 miles....and NEVER moved off the normal spot....but they are two different engines, and maybe shouldn't even attempt to compare them..but I am still thinking tiny headgasket leak for you..sorry
Nick

quote Originally posted by Saxman: I have tried two different ones and both do the same thing. I sure wish it were warmer outside so I can play - like your weather, Jake!

Maybe it is the fitting where the cap sits. I wonder if the radiator has been modified in some way. The cooling system should be a sealed system in that no fluid should get by the cap when you lift the rear (engine off and cold). The fluid gets out by heat expansion that lifts the spring backed gasket to allow fluid to pass into the overflow tank. When the fluid cools, it is pulled back into the radiator by contraction. May not be your problem with the cooling issues, but it does not sound like it is working as it should.

It was nice out today, stayed inside all day
I have to replace the rear wheel bearing and a torn axle boot and put the motor back in the SE.

It was pretty cold out last week but its getting warmer. I will get you the numbers off of my caps when its light out. They are both the same cap but not the stock Fiero caps. They have been working great.

quote Originally posted by Hudini: .... The cooling system should be a sealed system in that no fluid should get by the cap when you lift the rear (engine off and cold). ...

On HorsePower TV the other weekend I heard this was key because if the system is open water will boil at a lower temp than if it is sealed. I would try to get that fixed to take it out of the equation.

My radiator cap is a CST T-16V its a 16LBS cap. The rear cap is also a 16 LBS cap. There is no overflow in the back only at the front and it seems to work fine.

I'm running a stock Fiero cap on the rad. I believe this may be your problem. You need to maintain pressure in the system in order to raise the boiling point of the coolant. I think the Fiero cap is 15 PSI.

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1986 SE 350 V8

I'll check the part # on the caps I have, but I am pretty sure they are 16lbs. Do they make caps with longers springs to reach farther down?

Well - it's a revelation!

I went out to see if I could relocate the radiator hose that runs across the back of the engine. I was thinking I could run it down the right side to keep it from being the highest point in the coolant system.

When I looked to re-route, I saw that the headers were in the way and would touch the steel corrogated radiator line if I tried to lower it - and it hit me. What a dumb***! The radiator hose currently runs across the back of the engine - so the left side MUST be touching the exhaust!

Sure enough, where the steel hose runs down to the drivers side, it is resting right on top of the header. No wonder it heated up every time I pushed the gas!

I guess it was just one of those positions where it is not very visible - and I was so worried about keeping the spark plug wires off the headers that I never thought of the radiator hose. Normally - if a radiator hose hits a header, it will melt - but these are all metal...

SO! I will take her for a nice long ride when my wife gets off work this afternoon and see if that was it. I need to figure out how to insulate it because the hose is stretched to the max. I may just buy a piece of rubber hose that is longer but the steel is so nice. Oh well.

I'll report back later. I hope that's the problem.

DOHHH!

Good luck hope it works out for you. I used a solid metal pipe and ran it right below where the deck lid springs are located. Then ran a 90 down to the tube on the drivers side. Its up out of the way and dosent interfer with anything.

Thanks for the info, Jake. I may have to use solid pipe since I am not using the ram-horn style exhaust manifolds. I don't know what they are called, but they stick out farther from the engine. I pulled the hose up over the valve cover. There is some tension from pulling it up there, but not too much. I think it will be fine.

I would say that there was a good 2 inches of contact between the manifold and the coolant hose. I sure hope that is enough to cause the overheating.

Wife is off at 1:30, so I'll find out then when I take this car out on a beer run.

If it works - I'm driving it to work next week.

Jeez - I hope that is it!

By the way, Jake - I will be in town in April. Our band is performing at FSC. Will you have the V8 on the road then?

quote Originally posted by Saxman: Well - NO HEATING UP! Wahoo! My luck is still there - so the battery died when I stopped to fill her up, but at least I know what the temp problem was. Whew!! Thanks to "Doc-" for the jump start. He happened to be driving (not his Fiero) around town when I needed him. Cheers!

congrats glad to see everything is working now . now to just get some rogain to let that hair grow back.

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DONE: 86gt 5 speed 4.9 complete rebuild with buds outback northstar pistons , delta cams E303 cam , full ported , polished , stronger head springs, and flow tested heads and manifolds. rockcrawl's custom chip , polished crank . too much to list

88 coupe t-top #656 1 of only 339 base coupes made
85 t-top
87gt parts car
86 and 87 fiero database www.geocities.com/cwandall/fiero.html

You ain't kiddin'! What a pain that one was. What a simple solution, too.

Thanks to all you guys who jumped in to help!!

quote Originally posted by Saxman: By the way, Jake - I will be in town in April. Our band is performing at FSC. Will you have the V8 on the road then?

I hope so, the oil leak has slowed way down but is still there. The clutch is holding for now.

Damn - I posted on my other thread, but not on this one.

THe heating problem is still there. I must not have driven it long enough to let it warm up. I just don't understand...

Anyway, I'll try a different air cleaner to see if the one I have is too small. I'll look back to see if I already tried it yet to be sure. I have spent so much time on this that I can't remember what I did in the past...

I think she will be at Carlisle next weekend. Perhaps someone can spot the problem for me.

Question:

If I remove the coolant filler cap (on the V8 engine) and turn on the electric water pump (26gpm), what should happen to the coolant? Should it shoot out?

Prism-Blue came by today and when we tried it, the coolant only slowly rose to the top and leaked over the to a little bit at a time. If it were working properly, shouldn't the coolant squirt out with some kind of speed?

I notice that the water pump is pretty loud. Do they normally sound louder than an engine with cats and no mufflers?

I'll also start another thread asking this same question.

I allways fill mine with the rear end up high on ramps or jack stands, run a it bit with no thermostat, shut it off and let it sit a while and then add more coolant and repeat the process. Afterwhich, I'll sometimes run the front up on my ramps, let it sit a while and check, top it off if needed at rad too. I have 76 fiat spider 124 with very modified engine, mikuni carbs , headers, coil pac etc, and the only way to get all the air out of that thing is to get the front about 5 - 6 feet higher than the rear. Sounds crazy but thats the only thing that works!

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[IMG]



Trueleo.com/fiero.htm
RSpiderII@aol.com

I haven't tried getting the front up yet. Hmmm - let's see what happens. I'm still wondering about the water pump.

Thanks, Francis T. I hope to see you in PA next weekend!

I concider myself an expert when it comes to Fiero overheating issues. My last V8 would overheat on a daily basis and I learned a lot. My current V8 went up to 190* the other day and I got scared because it usually runs at 180*, but then I realized the ambient temp was about 80* not 60*. Whew!
I fill my coolant with a vacuum thingy. It eliminates all air pockets. I never found reason to jack up the front end. I used to remove the front cap on the rad and fill at the rear until it came out the front. Cap it off and then fill it at the rear until full.
I am spoiled by the technology and the fact I can put the Fiero on a lift at any given time.
It sounds to me like you need a new water pump. Check these links out. They work great for me.
http://store.summitracing.c...055+115&autoview=sku
http://store.summitracing.c...%2D914C&autoview=sku
This is what I run on my V8.
Dave
ps. I am hoping to meet the Saxman at Carlisle this year.
------------------

1999 Mercedes ML430, 1987 Fiero GT 450hp,1986 Fiero SE
certified master technician

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 05-13-2007).]

If I get time to replace this water pump, I may be DRIVING this V8 up there to meet the god of BMW repair!

Problem - if this fixes it, I may have to risk divorce and try to keep her!

I guess the easy way is to ask $10,000 for the car...

I'll bring as much beer as possible to help repay you guys for all the help!

I picked up one of these today - http://store.summitracing.c...055+115&autoview=sku

I'll let you know how it goes, Guru-

[This message has been edited by Saxman (edited 05-14-2007).]

Here is what I have in there - http://store.summitracing.c...140+115&autoview=sku - and it just fits length-wise. The one I bought is at least a 1/2 inch longer and will push against the wheel liner. I wonder if it will still work...

Has anyone tried one of these remote water pumps? http://store.summitracing.c...700+115&autoview=sku

Well, that pump is too big. I just ordered the right one from Summit so I'll know next week.

I checked the coolant flow and there is almost none, so this one HAS to be the problem...

More to come-

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...6500-2.html#lastpost

I'm still rooting for ya. Its gonna feel good when you get it right.

Thanks, Hudini-

I pulled the old pump apart and the impeller seems perfect, but the motor sounds bad.

I just got off the phone with Summit tech support (330-630-0240) and they said they don't sell just the motor.

I guess it's time to order the entire pump.

I got the new pump this evening. I went to put it on and realized that the pump housing hung a little too low, hitting hte frame. I looked on the old one and saw that the screw-in plug had been ground down a little bit. Since I don't have a grinder handy, I just unscrewed the impeller/motor from the new pump and put them on the old pump.

I finished installing the pump and refilled the system. I stuck my finger in there again and turned it on, but the pull from the coolant flow was not very diferent from the old pump. The only difference I noticed was that the coolant kept running out over the top instead of just rising for a second and holding steady.

I had the back end up pretty high with the pump running to work out any air bubbles, but nothing really came up. I jacked her up some more but nothing else came out.

I'll jack up the front tomorrow after work and top her off - then take a nice long (I hope) ride to see if all is well.

This pump is so quiet that I cannot tell it is on. The other one was really loud, so perhaps the old motor did not work so well when it got hot.

I'm sure there are some air pockets, but the test run tomorrow will tell all. More to come...

[This message has been edited by Saxman (edited 05-22-2007).]

If the thermostat is in, the coolant just circulates in the block until it opens. Make sure the fill is higher than any other part of the cooling system. I realized that the water pump I use won't work in your application. I stuffed my transmission into the driver's wheel well so I can run a standard type water pump. I originally purchased a Zumalt kit back in 1995ish to do my first V8. When I put one into this GT I used the trans mounts from the Zumalt kit, Archie's engine-trans adapter and a self designed front mount. There was a CNC machinist next door to my shop back when I started the GT swap.
Dave
ps. also make sure that the pump is wired up correctly

Damn!

I hooked the new pump up to the power cables that were used on the old pump and it ran quiet. Then I tried hooking the supplied cables directly to the battery and the pump REALLY turned good, so I think the previous owner's attempt at tapping into a power line was not a good one. It looks like he tied into the rear harness feeding the tail lights. I don't think the line was a good choice because the pump motor definitely turned at a different speed when it was direct to the battery. I left it hooked on the battery for the test drive.

Also, the new pump came with the wires marked incorrectly, I think. The blue one with the inline fuse and stripped end was marked "NEG" and the black one with the looped end was marked "POS" so I don't know what to think. When I hooked it up that way, it pushded coolant from the coolant pipe that runs under the driver's side into the filler neck, which is wrong (I think). I switched the fused line to the positive and the pump sucked coolant from the coolant line running under the passenger side. I am right in my directions, right?

I took her out for about 20 minutes and the temp eventually went up to 220 (again) so I pulled her back in the garage. AAAARGHHHH!

I think I have to try some different ways to burp the coolant system because I got NO air to come out after the rear was lifted. When I turned on the pump with the rear cap off, the coolant pushed out, but never accepted more coolant with the pump off, so there has to be air in the system. I know the pump is pushing coolant because I can feel a strong flow, so that has to be it (right?)

I'll try pulling the upper coolant hose that runs over the engine to see if I can pop an in-line filler cap since that area seems to be higher than the filler neck - or at least the same height. It looks like a good place for air to get trapped. Here's a few pics. Do you guys agree?




This is sure frustrating - especially since I don't have much time. I don't know how long it will be before I can get back out in the garage.

Since the heating problem has not been solved, I'll still sell it for $5400 without the Chase Racing roll bar - $5900 with the bar. Once the heating problem is solved, I'll take $5900 without the roll bar, but I don't know when I can actually fix it...

Such a small filter and pretty much in the center of the engine bay, with the decklid closed seems like it would suck in a lot of very hot air. I'd suggest taking the decklid off(weather permitting) and taking it for a run and see how that does temperature wise.

Just my 2 cents. I have a CSI electric pump, even with he rad. cap off the flow seems less than you'd expect, but it obviously works fine. Temps never go above 1/4 mark on the gauge which I assume is just over the 185 degree thermostat temp (using 4 core Rad.). On a heater hose I have running on a high part just over the engine I installed one of those flushing things where you plug in the garden water hose. It is the highest coolant path on the car. What I do is I put antifreeze in until it flows down very slowly (all this with the thermostat on), close it, run the electric pump for a while with the front rad cap off or on I don't remember that detail (I remember I got overflow from there if I left it on in some case). I keep on doing this process until I can't get any more coolant in it on either end. Then I'll actually run the car to heat it up and open the thermostat and get things flowing, you can hear bubbles in the system once it's warm and you shut it off and have the pump on, opening the Rad when it's hot and running the pump can allow you to see the bubbles sputtering out that end of the rad and you can fill it up in the front too. I keep up this process until I hear no bubbles at all. Works perfect and you don't have to remove the thermostat, which is slightly annoying on TPI.

At least when I had the V6, when I had air pockets I'd notice the temp would sometimes quickly go up then go down after a minute or two. It had no correlation to RPM, speed, A/C or anything. Once I'd work out the bubbles this would go away.

As for the air cleaner, anythings is possible, but doubtful. I have that tiny cone filter on mine with an LT1 elbow and it works fine.

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Carlos A. Martinez
1988 Formula 5-speed, ZZ4 V8
Fiero Netcast at www.txfieros.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/txfieros/

Saxman, Do you have an air compressor for air tools where you work on your car? This is what I use on EVERY car that comes into my shop. It never leaves any air in the system. Normally, bleeding air from an Audi can be a 30 minute job. With this, I fill it and run the engine and it acts like I never touched the cooling system. i used it on my Fiero and never had to rebleed it.
Dave
http://buy1.snapon.com/cata...on-store&dir=catalog

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: Saxman, Do you have an air compressor for air tools where you work on your car? This is what I use on EVERY car that comes into my shop. It never leaves any air in the system. Normally, bleeding air from an Audi can be a 30 minute job. With this, I fill it and run the engine and it acts like I never touched the cooling system. i used it on my Fiero and never had to rebleed it. Dave http://buy1.snapon.com/cata...on-store&dir=catalog

Interesting product.

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Carlos A. Martinez
1988 Formula 5-speed, ZZ4 V8
Fiero Netcast at www.txfieros.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/txfieros/

Cool! Exactly how does this work? I see where the cone-shaped main piece goes in place of the cap, but how does it work after that is attached? Does it suck out coolant and air or just air or does the vacuum pull the air pockets out?

Sorry, but I have never used a vacuum pump on a cooling system. Dad deprived me of that lesson when I was young...

Pull your thermostat and burp the system again.
My water pump gets power from the hot post right there close to the shock tower. I turn it on with a relay and a 5v switched power source. I dont recall what wire I used but it was one of the wires that has power when the key is turned on. I also used a breaker in line with the power wire.
You can get a painless kit but I put mine together from parts at AutoZone.
When I turn my pump on the inital shock will shoot water out of the filler if I dont have it covered, then it will have a pretty good flow in the hose.
I run the pump for a few minutes then turn it off and squeeze the hose untill the water lever goes down. Fill and repeat. When I cant get anymore water in the system I close it up and run the car up to 180 and let it cool and repeat. Mine dosent over heat.
I would also move your metal line, mine is ran where the hood springs are located, it keeps it away from the headers.
Good luck
Jake

quote Originally posted by Saxman: Cool! Exactly how does this work? I see where the cone-shaped main piece goes in place of the cap, but how does it work after that is attached? Does it suck out coolant and air or just air or does the vacuum pull the air pockets out? Sorry, but I have never used a vacuum pump on a cooling system. Dad deprived me of that lesson when I was young...

The technology came out a few years ago. I didn't want to have it until one of my techs showed me how simple it is.
the cone piece goes into the coolant fill. You flip the switch to block off the coolant suction hose(from pre mixed coolant in a bottle). Then push the button to activate the shop air. It will pull the system to 25" of vacuum. Let it sit for a minute. if it drops, you have a leak. If not, you are ready to suck it the coolant. The hoses will suck themselves in, but no damage will occur. keep in mind I use this on german cars with lots of plastic in the cooling system. I normally pre mix two gallons of coolant. Flip the switch to open the suction hose. When it gets near the bottom, flip the switch off and change bottles. It will fill it to the top with no air. Start the car. It will at like you never opened the cooling system. Heat will come out of the dash quickly, unlike when you are trying to bleed out a tricky system...(Thanks Audi engineers!)
That's pretty much it. Every tech that has used it won't ever go back to the old way.
Dave

Thanks, Dave!

What about a system with all hard lines? Will it work as well as a rubber hosed system? I imagine the vacuum will help pull some of the air, but can it get all of it?

quote Originally posted by Saxman: Thanks, Dave! What about a system with all hard lines? Will it work as well as a rubber hosed system? I imagine the vacuum will help pull some of the air, but can it get all of it?

Hard lines won't make a difference. The engine block is hard and holds coolant. Rubber hoses are fine too. When a system is put into vacuum, there is nothing but vacuum. I've used this product about 500 times give or take and never ever had a system airbound.
Dave