quote Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC: I often wonder where people come up with their desired HP numbers?

Me too. The word "Wankathon" usually comes to mind. Oh well, dreams are pretty personal things.

I had a 3800 SC in my 87 GT that produced approximately 312HP at my aluminum flywheel, with mods of course. It was great. 0-60mph in 5.0 seconds or less. With a cam, intercooler and driving practice I could have been faster. But, it wasn't enough for me. I sold that beautiful car and miss it a lot.

As a result, I am starting to build my 88 GT t-top. I've decided to put a Vin 9 1996 Northstar in it to try one out. The reason is because the motor starts with 300hp and it was cheap. Its easier to build a higher HP motor that has a base of 300 than to start with one that is 240 stock. The N* cost me $1,200 bucks too (50K miles). Anyway, I plan to use the middle ground cams to put me at 400 hp. Then I'm going to stop. That's because I figure I'll blast through getrags and axels when I get tempted. By the way, in order to use the cams you have to spend the money on springs too, and then most likely some time-serts, etc....so its not a simple $450. However, one thing I'm somewhat concerned about is the unique problems the N* has. I guess I will find out soon enough if 400 is good enough and the N* reliable enough.

forgot now

[This message has been edited by goatnipples2002 (edited 01-21-2007).]

FieroX ran 10 sec 1/4 mile times with his 3800SC. It was his report that inspired me to do a 3800 series III swap right now. Why look at other engines when you can have this type of performance for a reasonable price? ? Has any Northstar Fiero yet hit the tens??? Great engine but does it give you that much more? The way I look at it, drivability and performance is a ratio of HP, weight , reliability and gas mileage. I believe that the with the 3800SC you can have it all.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds -Best
Engine Controls, ECM goodies, Chip
re-programming & odd electronics stuff

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Why look at other engines when you can have this type of performance for a reasonable price?

Is $20,000 a "reasonable price"?

Also I didn't think fierox made it to 10s?

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 01-21-2007).]

quote Originally posted by 3800superfast: I think I found this out a few years back when looking at doing one, from Jr www.kitcarman.com , can`t remember.

The only input I can give you about this subject is..... "DO NOT USE THIS CLOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

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quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Is $20,000 a "reasonable price"? Also I didn't think fierox made it to 10s?

We know horsepower costs money but did FieroX really spend $20,000 on his 3800 SC????? I purchased a virtually band new 3800SCX series three with an equally brand new (50 miles) 4T65eHD for $2500. The swap will add another $2000. Now if we reworked everything, pistons ,cam/kit , porting, blower rework. aftercooler, exhaust, etc I can see that this would bring the price up a few thousand more but $20,000???? - whats in that engine??
I thought that Fiero X posted some times slips a while ago and they either read low 11's or high 10's. Maybe he can chime in and give us the numbers.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds -Best
Engine Controls, ECM goodies, Chip
re-programming & odd electronics stuff

He's gone through a few engines and transmissions...

You're right - "horsepower costs money" and most people aren't willing to spend it. What is a 3800 stock? 250hp? I think it would take more than a pulley swap to get to 400hp. With a northstar, you can literally just swap the cams and reach that 400hp goal. I'd think that's a price point to the northstar.

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 01-21-2007).]

Least expensive way to get 400HP????
Duh.
Turbo SD4!!!!


Oh....er....LEAST expensive. N/m.

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My Web page | The Turbo Super Duty Build.
You know that little voice that says it can't be done? I duct-taped mine's mouth shut and pushed it down a flight of stairs.

Drop in an LS6 and you're already at 400hp. Or you can get a LS1 and do a tiny bit more work, and you're there. Cheap and easy.

quote Originally posted by dobey: Drop in an LS6 and you're already at 400hp. Or you can get a LS1 and do a tiny bit more work, and you're there. Cheap and easy.

adapter plate$$$$

After much careful thought I planning. I decided to go the Northstar route. Luckily for me I found a almost 100% northstar on craigslist for $400. All it needs is new head gaskets I think. Too bad it a VIN Y though. The plan now is to get the engine in and running good before I start camming things up and maybe if my budget and space allow it, a turbo N*. Is it absolutely necessary the timesert the block after replacing the gaskets?

Well if you dont mind a carb engine I built mine myself for just under 2k and got 473hp and 475ft/lbs of torque I bought the short block from a guy I work with (i work at a race engine shop) it was just a 350 sbc bored .060 flat top pistons new rings bearing ect. cost $400 then i bought a set of brodix heads ik180 set me back $980 (my price we get discounts ) a comp cam $110 crane roller rockers $140 edelbrock performer rpm air gap new on ebay $150 at a steal and a holley 750 professionally rebuilt for $120 with odds and ends it might have gotten to just over 2k but not much anywho thats whats in my camaro.

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having an import that can run 11's...is kinda like comming out of the closet....your going to suprise a lot of people....but in the end your still gay

Cheapest close to 400hp you can absolutely get....

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/032989.html

Honest, most anyone else here will tell you they spent close to that when they are that high on horsepower levels in the Fiero.

And it will save you 2 years worth of work, get in and wrap yourself around a tree at 120mph

Ok joking aside, honestly buying one already done right is the cheapest you can get, espically from someone who really wants or needs to sell their car. (Rich doesnt need to sell his car, he's just wants it to go to a good home)

Note: not my car, but am impressed at the deal.

[This message has been edited by timgray (edited 01-22-2007).]

quote Originally posted by fieropimp: Well if you dont mind a carb engine I built mine myself for just under 2k and got 473hp and 475ft/lbs of torque I bought the short block from a guy I work with (i work at a race engine shop) it was just a 350 sbc bored .060 flat top pistons new rings bearing ect. cost $400 then i bought a set of brodix heads ik180 set me back $980 (my price we get discounts ) a comp cam $110 crane roller rockers $140 edelbrock performer rpm air gap new on ebay $150 at a steal and a holley 750 professionally rebuilt for $120 with odds and ends it might have gotten to just over 2k but not much anywho thats whats in my camaro.

But the you have to remember how to get that into a Fiero... the V8Archie kits are great but if I could afford one to fit, not to mention having the Bullet Proof trans built and new transaxles cut from a better material, then it wouldnt be cheap like that anymore, but its a good thought, besides what trans for a FWD style application would you use?

I need to hookup with your speed shop and get a 350kit if its that cheap for you

quote Originally posted by fieropimp: Well if you dont mind a carb engine I built mine myself for just under 2k and got 473hp and 475ft/lbs of torque I bought the short block from a guy I work with (i work at a race engine shop) it was just a 350 sbc bored .060 flat top pistons new rings bearing ect. cost $400 then i bought a set of brodix heads ik180 set me back $980 (my price we get discounts ) a comp cam $110 crane roller rockers $140 edelbrock performer rpm air gap new on ebay $150 at a steal and a holley 750 professionally rebuilt for $120 with odds and ends it might have gotten to just over 2k but not much anywho thats whats in my camaro.

This is very doable and maybe you can get it cheaper finding some good heads/intake at a swap meet. But yes the Archie kit will rise cost considerably. I think the real cheapest way for 400HP is a 200HP carbed 4.9 with a 200HP nitrous shot. When it blows then you get another one

You can buy a crate SB with 400 hp and not do anything. Your weak links no matter which, are gonna be drive axles and trannys...forget a TH-125.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: You can buy a crate SB with 400 hp and not do anything. Your weak links no matter which, are gonna be drive axles and trannys...forget a TH-125.

where do you get them and how much? are they turn key? I'll do it to my next fiero, only condition is it has to have a ryan.hess tranny and shift option so I can drive it due to my knee, also I'd let the Guru's on here tell me what to do to it, as long as it doesnt take 2 years to build...

yeah I'd like to buuy the rooster, but I'd rather build my own...

Jegs for a start. I had a guy at Jasper Performance build my 383 stroker for Raptor and it dynoed around 400. Besides sticking it in, I just added a carb and distributor. Had a few tiny glitches that worked out in a few days. 4 trannies, 2 axles, one cv joint in 4000 miles was its demise, but motor ran perfectly.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 01-23-2007).]

Cheapest route can only be obtained if you do it yourself.

Reliability can be had with cheap if you know what you are doing when taking the above approach.

The small block chevy in my opinion is the easiest because it's much cheaper and more dependable than the Northstar, it only needs one cam and for starters can be run with a quick and easy carbuerator.

The axles can be made in a stronger heftier steel for about $360, that's about what Moser would charge you to duplicate your axle shafts if you sent them in.

Or you can do what the guys on the 60 degree V6 forum and I am doing and switch to a 3400 or 3500 front wheel drive V6 and a turbo. That will eliminate the adaptor kit so that you can bolt the engine right in along with a dogbone brace and only need to deal with a computer swap which Ryan can help you with. The aluminum heads are very efficient and puts these smaller engine on the heels of the naturally aspirated 3.8L.

There are dynoed examples of STOCK 3400 60 degree V6 engines putting out more than 330 hp at the wheels with the help of a single turbo at 10 psi. Spend ~$600 on custom pistons and turn the boost up to about 14-15 psi after adding a cam and intercooler along with a mild port and polish job and you'll be at 400hp.

I have run my 3500 setup in progress with the aluminum head flow numbers and my reground cam specs entered in Desktoop Dyno and netted a speculated output of 392 hp at 10 psi. I started with a baseline configuration that put me a little under the engines certified output and have no doubt that with performance springs for the 6500rpm cam, proper tuning and water injection it will be considerably higher since 10psi is the minimum goal. The program is not perfect but it's often off on the low side or close to actual.

This is provided you do it yourself. I have the tools necessary for my project and more turbos laying around than I know what to do with and thanks to Ebay they are no longer an expensive item to buy.

Just put your options side by side on paper and add up the cost. The only things you need to consider are the tools, parts and adaptor kits where necessary because they will all need to be tuned so that expense will be the same for all except the chevy if you use a carb.

If you can't do it yourself it's not going to be cheap no matter how you look at it because custom work takes a lot of time and money. I have over $1600 invested in the 6spd swap thread I'm pioneering and it's going to take at least another $300-500 to finish it. The tranny cost me $550 and that's doing everything myself minus the custom axles.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 01-23-2007).]

Whats involved in a 3500 swap with an automatic?

3400,3500,3900, 3.4dohc

turbo

basicly stock mounting, bolts right to tranny, proven examples of internally stock engines making close to 400whp..

personally i am hoping to break the 400 whp mark with tuning this spring on my 3.4dohc 62-1 T4/T4 turbo intercooled setup

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: With a northstar, you can literally just swap the cams and reach that 400hp goal.

Don't forget upgraded valvesprings. And probably retainers.

Got any dyno sheets showing 400HP out of a N* that is completely stock other than the cams? I don't doubt the 400HP capability of the N*, I just don't believe that cams with no other mods will get you there.

wow and they try and say its hard to get 435 out of one.... hmmm i went wayy overboard on spending though... now I want th WIN ALDL USB cable so I can post results....

lmao

I love this thread, and am going to build another from ground up, and let people on here choose what do... and have ryan.hess trans style thing so i can actually shift it....

but yeah you guys can choose... and I will try and post pics/ send links to em and such and also I would be asking for lots of help...

?

[This message has been edited by goatnipples2002 (edited 05-04-2007).]

I like the thought but are we talking track only or streetable? I dont think n2o is street legal in many states... it is cheap and easy though...

quote Originally posted by jack_ink: I like the thought but are we talking track only or streetable? I dont think n2o is street legal in many states... it is cheap and easy though...

Nitrous is the easiest but it will only be the cheapest until you reach the refill point where your cost expense to do so exceeds what the other options costs are. It's also the least forgiving if tune is not correct.

3.4 block with a 3400 top end and rods/pistons on 11psi 396hp and 400+tq, proven and runs as a daily driver in a firebird. I think it is rather potent and cheap to build because all parts can be had in decent condition from bone yards for real cheap. Turbo and exhaust are the exspensive parts but well worth it or go supercharger, I don't like nitrous because of the side effects and damage to the engine.

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: The heads should be the same as those found on the other LSx engines so there should be a sizable aftermarket for the remaining parts needed to reach the goal.

The heads are actually LS2 heads, no joke, same part number and everything. The biggest problem would be the tranny and DOD. Even in stock form people are having some tranny troubles. Add a cam and some heads, youll be ripping through the tranny like no tomorrow. However, cartuning has a beta kit out, so turbo LS anyone. Also, the tranny case is different than previous 4t65e-hd's but internally its the same, so you just have to buy some hard parts from ZZP and your tranny will be set.

quote Originally posted by crytical point: I don't like nitrous because of the side effects and damage to the engine.

You know I hear that so much but most people are dumb asses and others are not educated about "the juice". If you don't have all the safety features or devices then a of course it is bad. No different than running a turbo with no wastegate or BOV. It's just that nitrous kits are incomplete and most don't realize that. To each their own..."pill it till you kill it"

quote Originally posted by stuffy236: The heads are actually LS2 heads, no joke, same part number and everything. The biggest problem would be the tranny and DOD. Even in stock form people are having some tranny troubles. Add a cam and some heads, youll be ripping through the tranny like no tomorrow. However, cartuning has a beta kit out, so turbo LS anyone. Also, the tranny case is different than previous 4t65e-hd's but internally its the same, so you just have to buy some hard parts from ZZP and your tranny will be set.

If the design is like that found in the 07 3900 the DOD will not be a problem at all. It has to be activated by a switch otherwise the valve train functions normally and another point provided it uses the same cylinder deactivation as the 3900 is the lifters which are special for DOD on the deactivated cylinders only, that being said you should be able to replace them with the standard hydraulic roller which would eliminate the DOD. On the 3900 V6 it's called active fuel management where cylinders 1,2 and 3 are deactivated hydraulically through the special lifters that only those 3 cylinders have, the fuel is shut off and you have a 3 cylinder engine. The engine code is LZ8 I believe and it only comes in the 07 Impala and Montecarlo. Can you imagine what that engine would do for fuel economy in a Fiero having almost as much horsepower on 3 cylinders as the Fiero 2.8 has on 6 and better gas mileage already running on 6 cyl.

Turbo is about the most effective way to go, once it's on it's on no refills required and it has a low to no parasitic drain off boost depending on the turbine size. Fuel economy is a big issue overlooked in these discussions and again boosting I believe is the most efficient compared to displacement. A V8 at 400 hp vs. a 4 or 6 cyl boosted to 400 hp generally uses more fuel under naturally aspirated conditions when the 4 and 6 are running with fewer cylinders, so the total package overall yields the best route. I hate having to stop for gas on a 250 mile trip, and a 6 spd transmission and a 6 cylinder engine capable of running on 3 cylinders sounds like a 40 mile per gallon combo to me in a Fiero maybe more.

quote Originally posted by goatnipples2002: The cheapest way to get 400hp is to build a 3.4 with forged rods and pistons. Get it balanced. Performance cam. Then piece together a direct port nitrous system. That is cheaper AND easier than.................. a 3800sc swap no to mention you still need mods to get to 400hp...which aren't cheap at all. an Archie swap kit...not even including the engine and the extras you need. a N* swap.

how would I "piece together a direct port nitrous system"? I have the balanced and blueprinted and all forged and ported and polished... I am very in the dark on n2o just seen lots of insane disasters with it and bad engine wear, not to mention my buddies lose drivers licenses over a simple ticket and the cop sees the lines/switches and does a simple search and *bottle found*

I'd like to know more of the proper way to do it...

quote Originally posted by jack_ink: how would I "piece together a direct port nitrous system"? I have the balanced and blueprinted and all forged and ported and polished... I am very in the dark on n2o just seen lots of insane disasters with it and bad engine wear, not to mention my buddies lose drivers licenses over a simple ticket and the cop sees the lines/switches and does a simple search and *bottle found* I'd like to know more of the proper way to do it...

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/080015.html we don't want to steal MclarenF1's thunder, so I started a thread.

[This message has been edited by goatnipples2002 (edited 01-29-2007).]

hmmm 400 hp lets see ...

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/062546.html

Then hit it with a 100 shot.

LSx series motor and no adapter plate required

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HARDCORE SBC CRONIE AND PROUD OF IT ! GOT TQ ?

Without going to mega cubic inches it's mpre a queston of long you want it to last. 400 HP can be cheeply achived, 400 HP and durability cannot, especially under 300 ci. We got 550+HP and 13k rpm from a 2ltr MR2 4 banger. It took a DIY dry sump, DIY bottom end girdle, cryo, and the best of everything to make it live! With these cars, anything near 300hp will knock your socks off. Besides most of that power will just go up in wheel spin smoke, with them not having posi rears.

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero: After that, I want BOOST on BOOST Nitrous. Go **** FAST. 454 Small Blocl with a 14-71 blower blown on alchole in the back of a cry treated 3.32 4sp Muncie. If I can get it to hook and plant the rear tires with some stickey stuff. You wheelie bears if you need. This car would blow the doors off just about anything. If a driver dumb enough to sit in the seat it would make world history. A Fiero would dip into the 9s easy.

You'll be doing head gaskets every week if you supercharge a 454 SBC. There isn't enough meat between the cylinders to maintain the head gasket seal with anything more than moderate compression N/A use.

quote Originally posted by Francis T: Without going to mega cubic inches it's mpre a queston of long you want it to last. 400 HP can be cheeply achived, 400 HP and durability cannot, especially under 300 ci. We got 550+HP and 13k rpm from a 2ltr MR2 4 banger. It took a DIY dry sump, DIY bottom end girdle, cryo, and the best of everything to make it live! With these cars, anything near 300hp will knock your socks off. Besides most of that power will just go up in wheel spin smoke, with them not having posi rears.

you can have durability under 300ci @ 400 hp just have to sink a life savings into the development of the engine itself... and knowing a great machinist and paying for his kids college can get you there... lol just neer cheaply

ONE question WHY do you NEED 400+ HP??? when pushing anything above 300 i believe you are risking your transaxles, as I have read on this forum

Get a 4banger Fiero and put in a 300 shot of Nitrous!


LOL sorry I had to say it. Although I'm bios with my answer: a stock N* plus CHRfab cams can do 400hp no problem, and of course you could just add Nitrous to the N* too.

Also it has been documented that a home made set of headers, shave heads and aluminum fly wheel (Which you'll need for the swap anyways) will give you 350hp on a stock N*, so then all you'll need is a 50 shot of N*.

JG

Indeed, that was what I was saying, on his budget, not going to happen. Have you ever noticed how many people love to use the words 'it can be done cheeply, etc' when talking about sports cars (IE the Fiero) ? It should burn your lips when you say it.
There's an old saying about this hobby of sports cars, hi-pro cars, and racing in general; "It's a great way to make a small fortune, just start with a big one!"

quote Originally posted by jack_ink: you can have durability under 300ci @ 400 hp just have to sink a life savings into the development of the engine itself... and knowing a great machinist and paying for his kids college can get you there... lol just neer cheaply ONE question WHY do you NEED 400+ HP??? when pushing anything above 300 i believe you are risking your transaxles, as I have read on this forum