And if your running 35 profile tires on 13" rims, 145 mph ain't the real thaing!

Norm

quote Originally posted by vamper68: from my understanding a stock 2.8 only has like 130-145 hp well a fiero 2.8 is not much diffirent from any other 2.8 except the intake and the roller lifters. I could be wrong but thats what google tells me. i guess that mine is not the golden gem motor that everyone wishes to have in their car i think any fiero with a manual tranny and decent motor should push 140's. i think the automatics have a shut off at about 120 so their out with out mods.

actually the auto's don't ahve a speed limiter, they have the most retarded rev limiter ever devised. at 6000 the fuel pump shuts off. Guess what that does to your engine? Yeah, it phucks it up good and proper. Kill the spark, but jesus, not the fuel. Yeah, that's just what an engine that runs hot to start with needs, lets lean out the mixture violently at 6000 RMP. That'll teach him to speed. It's amazing how little engineers know about the basic mechanics of an engine when it counts. ( yes, I smoked a motor at 135 or so.)

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Finding a engine to do what you need to reach that speed will be fairly easy, you have a few to choose from. But the real problem will be the tranny being able to survive that RPM for a period of time. At that high a RPM the fiero manual trannies do not provide enough lubrication to the gears and would cause very bad things to happen, I do not know much about the automatics so I can not comment on those.

quote Originally posted by gt88norm: And if your running 35 profile tires on 13" rims, 145 mph ain't the real thaing! Norm

Not to mention a tranny swap!

GL

Edit: Oh, wait, does the VSS read axle speed? My bad!

[This message has been edited by Tugboat (edited 10-27-2004).]

I guess since I have taken so many physics classes I wanted to know how to calculate how much Horsepower you need to go 200 mph. I found a drag racing page that did it for me and the results are interesting. I will spare you the math and cut straight to the results. If you are interested here is the link.

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/physics6.htm

Note the numbers in the table are just to overcome wind resistance. The rolling resistance and internal resistance of the car are unique to the car and require additional horsepower. Hence my initial guess was pretty close, you are going to need about 700 horsepower at the wheels to go 200 miles and hour.

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More interesting to the racer is the fact that it takes 145 hp to overcome drag at 150 mph. Race cars capable of going 200 mph usually have at least 650 hp, about 350 of which goes into overcoming air resistance. It is probably possible to go 200 mph with a car in the 450-500 hp range, but such a car would have very good aerodynamics; expensive, low-friction internal parts; and low rolling resistance tires, which are designed to have the smallest possible contact patch like high performance bicycle tires, and are therefore not good for handling.

Next Page

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 10-27-2004).]

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Note the numbers in the table are just to overcome wind resistance. The rolling resistance and internal resistance of the car are unique to the car and require additional horsepower. Hence my initial guess was pretty close, you are going to need about 700 horsepower at the wheels to go 200 miles and hour.

If you are measuring HP at the wheels, haven't you already accounted for rolling resistance i.e. drivetrain, bearings, etc. If so, you would only (ha!) need 400-500 HP. Am I missing something here?

Although I think anyone willing to go 200 MPH in a fiero (I love the car, but that's too fast for me and it) is crazy, I think it would be theoretically possible.

Tom

I just thank god I live no where near you.

quote Originally posted by cooguyfish: i agree with most of this, EXCEPT the horsepower part, yeah you are right, he'll need a lot, but 700 RWHP?? no way, a lamborghini murcielago can do 200+ with 571 crank HP, and it weighs 4000+ lbs. let's not forget they aren't the most aerodynamic either. all other things being considered, i'd say 500 HP would get you to 200

The Mucielago also has 480 Lbs/ft of Torque... don't forget that. The Saturn I was talking about is in the low-mid 300 range for torque. And the Lambo weighs 3,600 lbs, not 4,000 plus. That Saturn weighs 3,000 lbs, but the aerodynamics of the Mucielago is way better than a Satun Ion.

And in the end though, the Saturn does have a higher top speed; 212 vs. the Lambo's 205.

In a nutshell, no you don't need 700 HP to go 200+mph, IF you have good aerodynamics, and the torque to back it up, as JScott, and Lamborghini have proved.

And here are some pics of the Ecotec Turbo powered Saturn Ion Redline record breaking beast.

hehe, notice how the parachute says ecotec....

And BTW, I had said earlier that the old record, set by Honda, was 189, but it is in fact 183, so this motor stomped Honda by 29 MPH......that's alot in Bonneville Standards.

Also, the Saturn pictured above was using a 4T65-E automatic tranny.

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Petty Officer Michael C Casaceli
Patrol Squadron Ten, United States Navy
1988 Pontiac Fiero 2.5L, soon to be 2.2L ECOTEC TURBO (THE PROJECT HAS STARTED!!!)
1988 Oldsmobile Firenza 2.0L non-turbo (R.I.P.my beloved J-body. K.I.A. by a Ford)
1994 Chevy S-10 4.3, it's finally here, and it is gorgeous!

[This message has been edited by fieroturbo (edited 10-27-2004).]

Here is a link to the Ultima GTR website. Theyve just broken the 0-100-0 record and reached 192mph with a 640hp chevy v8 on a 1.8 mile strip. They would have gone faster except for weather conditions.

http://www.ultimasports.co.uk/record.html

Please note that Ultimas have Porsche transaxles, massive brakes, and much better aerodynamics and suspensions than Fieros do.

well it looks like a nice 50/50 split of people who think it can be dont and people who swear it cant. All im looking for is a awsome top speed to brag about if i only get to 150-160 i will still have great acceleration to kill the hondas but i would like to continue this 200 mph quest i will start a build up thread when a motor and some more cash comes into the picture and all results will be posted on PFF cause it is the best forum on the net. Im just curious to hear what other people have brought their cars to in the top end. Also why would they make a 200 mph speed-o-meter conversion.

Here's a thought.....

Fieros, with so many body kits available, why doesn't someone make a kit to give the car the best possible drag coeffecient?

Modded front air dam, electronically adjustable rear wing, etc.

Anyone out there with a degree related to aerodynamics?

The 1969 Daytona Charger (with the NASCAR version hemi) would go 200 with a little prep...
http://www.cottonowens.com/press.html

But the factory put a lot of development into that:
http://www.allpar.com/model/superbird.html

GL

quote Originally posted by fieroturbo: Here's a thought..... Fieros, with so many body kits available, why doesn't someone make a kit to give the car the best possible drag coeffecient? Modded front air dam, electronically adjustable rear wing, etc. Anyone out there with a degree related to aerodynamics?

best drag coefficient does not = the best high speed stability ..
for high speeds stability and control are the #1 priority - drag can always be overcome with more HP

A 327 with the proper valvetrain and rotating assembly components should be able to turn 8000+ RPM all day long. The valvetrain (springs mostly) is the variable that really limits your rpm potential. Roller rockers, stud girdles one peice pushrods and lightweight roller lifters will help the top end stay together at those revs.

quote Originally posted by Kohburn: best drag coefficient does not = the best high speed stability .. for high speeds stability and control are the #1 priority - drag can always be overcome with more HP

In the Superbird link it says the drag was lower without the wing, but the back wheels came off the ground at high speeds.

GL

quote Originally posted by Tugboat: In the Superbird link it says the drag was lower without the wing, but the back wheels came off the ground at high speeds. GL

sounds scary

quote Originally posted by vamper68: well it looks like a nice 50/50 split of people who think it can be dont and people who swear it cant.

I don't think anyone is saying it CAN'T be done.

Just that it will be extremely expensive if done right and extremely dangerous if done wrong.

quote Originally posted by fieroturbo: The Mucielago also has 480 Lbs/ft of Torque... don't forget that. The Saturn I was talking about is in the low-mid 300 range for torque. And the Lambo weighs 3,600 lbs, not 4,000 plus. That Saturn weighs 3,000 lbs, but the aerodynamics of the Mucielago is way better than a Satun Ion. And in the end though, the Saturn does have a higher top speed; 212 vs. the Lambo's 205. In a nutshell, no you don't need 700 HP to go 200+mph, IF you have good aerodynamics, and the torque to back it up, as JScott, and Lamborghini have proved. And BTW, I had said earlier that the old record, set by Honda, was 189, but it is in fact 183, so this motor stomped Honda by 29 MPH......that's alot in Bonneville Standards. Also, the Saturn pictured above was using a 4T65-E automatic tranny.

Murcielago= 4,058 lbs and if you don't belive me i'll scan the mag and show you.

the other thing i was going to mention, i have heard rumors of a ecotec Cobalt that did 243 MPH, is there any truth to that, or was someone yankin my chain?

something else i forgot to mention that would be important here, cars like the saturn and lamborghini have another advantage, they weigh more than a fiero. Which if you think about it, if it ways a little more, it's going to be harder for it to come off the ground... I read this on one of the top end cars GM built, it said that they make them heavy so they are easier to control at speeds.

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AIM= Fish100770
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Support a Free Forum, everyone do their part.

at 200 Miles per hour the air force on that car is enormous. Think about it, a jumbo jet lifts off the ground at lower speeds than that. So you better have some serious down force on the front of that car or you are going to take off and it won't be pretty.

quote Originally posted by cooguyfish: I read this on one of the top end cars GM built, it said that they make them heavy so they are easier to control at speeds.

its not for lift - its because the more mass the car has the less any minor changes int he road surface will upset car.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: at 200 Miles per hour the air force on that car is enormous. Think about it, a jumbo jet lifts off the ground at lower speeds than that. So you better have some serious down force on the front of that car or you are going to take off and it won't be pretty.

Don't forget though, a jumbo jet has wings meant for lift.
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And also, the Murcielago weighs 3683lbs.

http://www.supercars.net/cars/2002@$Lamborghini@$Murcielagox.html
http://www.supercars.net/cars/2002@$Lamborghini@$Murcielago%20Barchetta%20Conceptx.html
http://www.supercars.net/cars/2004@$Lamborghini@$Murcielago%20Roadsterx.html
http://www.supercars.net/cars/2004@$Lamborghini@$Murcielago%2040th%20Anniversaryx.html

Click on any 4 of the links, they all say the same.

quote Originally posted by Kohburn: its not for lift - its because the more mass the car has the less any minor changes int he road surface will upset car.

The Ultima GTR weighs about 2200lbs:

http://www.ultimasports.co.uk/gtr/specification.html

If the aerodynamics are right, the weight is not a factor.

A mostly stock 2.8 will NOT go 145mph. My mostly stock 2.8 will only do 130mph.

I also have a 4 speed, and at 5300rpm I am going approx 125mph. This is a 3.65 4 speed. Tires nearly the same circumfrence as stock. Unless your running an econo 4 speed there is no way you are going as fast as you claim at that rpm.

A stock 2.8 is only putting 110-115hp at the wheels, brand new. An SRT-4 will do 155mph but it has 230hp at the wheels stock.

It takes extensive modification to a stock 2.8 to make it come close to 200hp. If you are using a stock intake and exhaust manifolds, it is nearly impossible to make 170hp, let alone 200.

You may make enough hp to propel the car to 200mph, but good luck finding a transmission that will allow you to put 5-600hp through it for any length of time.

Most cars are made for a purpose. Most supercars arn't made for quick 1/4 mile times and will loose quite easily to cars with much less hp. Its all in the gears. Likewise, a good 1/4 mile car may be quick but will not have enough power for 200mph. You can't expect to have the best of both worlds. A 600hp car can propel you to 200mph or 9s in the 1/4 mile. Not both.

If you decide to use any of the fiero transmissions to try this, invest in some sort of heavy flack sheild between yourself and the transmission. 8000rpm + lotsa hp = possible shrapnel.

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Buy a fiero, become a mechanic

quote Originally posted by fieroturbo: And also, the Murcielago weighs 3683lbs.

anyways, let's not bicker back and forth about this, so that's what i was going off of.

-Fish

quote Originally posted by crzyone: A mostly stock 2.8 will NOT go 145mph. My mostly stock 2.8 will only do 130mph. I also have a 4 speed, and at 5300rpm I am going approx 125mph. This is a 3.65 4 speed. Tires nearly the same circumfrence as stock. Unless your running an econo 4 speed there is no way you are going as fast as you claim at that rpm. A stock 2.8 is only putting 110-115hp at the wheels, brand new. An SRT-4 will do 155mph but it has 230hp at the wheels stock. It takes extensive modification to a stock 2.8 to make it come close to 200hp. If you are using a stock intake and exhaust manifolds, it is nearly impossible to make 170hp, let alone 200. You may make enough hp to propel the car to 200mph, but good luck finding a transmission that will allow you to put 5-600hp through it for any length of time. Most cars are made for a purpose. Most supercars arn't made for quick 1/4 mile times and will loose quite easily to cars with much less hp. Its all in the gears. Likewise, a good 1/4 mile car may be quick but will not have enough power for 200mph. You can't expect to have the best of both worlds. A 600hp car can propel you to 200mph or 9s in the 1/4 mile. Not both. If you decide to use any of the fiero transmissions to try this, invest in some sort of heavy flack sheild between yourself and the transmission. 8000rpm + lotsa hp = possible shrapnel.

Yeah, you have to get to the low 7s or 6s to be in the 200MPH range... Over 1000 HP at that point....

GL

.

[This message has been edited by crzyone (edited 10-29-2004).]

I dunno anything about the speed thingy, but the engines....

I personally helped build and watched a N/A 432 cu in small block make 1036 crank hp at 8200rpm. The SBC can spin as high as you want it to, you just have to support it. NASCAR runs theirs to just shy of 10k, constantly for about 3-4 hours straight.

As for the N*, I dunno anything...

Your stock 3.4L won't even rev past 7200 believe it or not. And I can assure you it doesn't pull hard to 7, it pulls to 5500-6000, then it falls off. But to get it to run to 7 is quite easy. A good intake will help a lot, and the chip that SappySE107 makes will make it pull to 6500-7. But to get past 7, it is all but impossible on the stock intake manifold. The 96-97s may suppor it up to 7400, but nothing past that. They are just too restrictive. So plan on changing your intake mani. We are using an independant throttle body setup for our 8,000rpm 3.4L, (well 3.5). Oiling system. I presonally spun a bearing on a 127k motor just by running it to 7,000rpm. And I took care of that motor well. I will be adding a quart to our pan, and retro fitting a SBC high volume oil pump. You will also need aftermarket springs of course. Your cams will run as high as you want, but of course aftermarket cams would help tremendously. Basically, it takes money, time, and mechanical inclanation. We will wiat and see what our 3.4 turns out, but the DD gave us over 450hp, and that is with 11:1 compression, and all normally aspirated.

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1992 Lumina Z34 5-speed
14.78 @ 92.68
1992 Lumina Z34 5-speed
Offered to donated its organs to Fiero

Okay, so what's the latest on this? Is vamper gonna go for it?

I also think we need proof of the 145mph claim. I'm not skeptical - just curious.

A chopped top would be a big help as would other aero mods etc. The engine will need great internals, like really good rods, oiling system, super balance jod etc, etc, etc, but most of all you'll need lots of $$$$$$$ and a pair of really big 'brass ones' since that ent no car to be going that fast in. With that wheel base, most anything will distrupt it enough to get you killed at 200mph. And don't forget to add lots of relegious things to your dash. I'd put somthing from every faith on the planet, just to be sure.

the vamper is getting ready to do a 3.4 swap in his current car and will be trying to make a very decent daily driver and make it a bit pretty. but i will be trying something a bit more exotic and yet still some what streetable with a stable 200 mph top end. right now im not sure if im going to make my current car the 2008 fiero prototype that i am working on or the 200 mph fiero. most likely the one i have now. damn too many projects. if anyone is into some fun you should join the 2008 fiero designhttps://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/046695.html all input and designs are being looked at soon.

http://www.brian89gp.com/other/transmission.htm

Check that out.

Anyway, Study how much front end lift a Fiero has at speed. Something would have to be done about that.

My Honda B16A, does 8000RPM all day.

Just drop it in with the right axles and mounts, add a turbo, and 300HP of fun can be yours.

quote Originally posted by hondapwr: My Honda B16A, does 8000RPM all day. Just drop it in with the right axles and mounts, add a turbo, and 300HP of fun can be yours.

Might be 300 hp, but it would only have 130 ft lbs of torque

The absoute biggest factor to hitting 200mph is drag and frontal area. Here is a good calc. to see how much power you will need: http://www.davewin.com/tech/horsepower_calc.shtml

Using this calc you can see 150 mph takes ~183 hp while 200 mph takes ~423 hp.

[This message has been edited by Primaris (edited 02-22-2005).]

I work in the Nascar Racing industry and know a thing or two about making cars go fast and turn left. The HP is easy the RPM is easy just expensive strong light weight engine components = HP = $$. I have 7500 RPM pushrod motor only the block is stock. now as far as the trans and axles. Good bearings are a must peened shafts and gears as well as get the components balanced. The AERO of the fiero is good to about 90 MPH and that is about it. Low drag is good for fast but bad for downforce the fiero generates lift which will kill you you would need a spoiler that was not a decoration on the back sommth the bottom of the car and a valance that went to the ground. You would need shocks that had a ton of rebound on them to help hold the car down on the ground 1 bump with the factory setup and you are a kite. 200 is a very difficult number to achieve and survive Drag is exponential as stated earlier as well as dangerous as hell. You might need 100 Hp to get another 20 mph. Here is an example at Talledaga Plate motor 400 HP = 190 MPH
Open Motor 800 HP = 226 mph
It took 400 hp to go 36 mph faster.

quote Originally posted by seabird296: I work in the Nascar Racing industry and know a thing or two about making cars go fast and turn left. The HP is easy the RPM is easy just expensive strong light weight engine components = HP = $$. I have 7500 RPM pushrod motor only the block is stock. now as far as the trans and axles. Good bearings are a must peened shafts and gears as well as get the components balanced. The AERO of the fiero is good to about 90 MPH and that is about it.

I have no idea where you got this idea. When I smoked a 2.8 at about 140 the car was glued to the road. They hold the road great at that speed.

quote Low drag is good for fast but bad for downforce the fiero generates lift which will kill you you would need a spoiler that was not a decoration on the back sommth the bottom of the car and a valance that went to the ground.

I'm starting to doubt your credentials. The valance on the rear of the fiero doesn't go all the way to the ground for a reason. That wedge of air creates turbulence under the rear of the car which causes a vaccume that pulls air out from under the car pulling it down to the road. If you worked in Nascar, you may have noticed that the rear of every car on the track is designed the same way for the same reason. I will agree on the spoiler.

quote You would need shocks that had a ton of rebound on them to help hold the car down on the ground 1 bump with the factory setup and you are a kite. 200 is a very difficult number to achieve and survive Drag is exponential as stated earlier as well as dangerous as hell. You might need 100 Hp to get another 20 mph. Here is an example at Talledaga Plate motor 400 HP = 190 MPH Open Motor 800 HP = 226 mph It took 400 hp to go 36 mph faster.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Okay I think you are missing the point. About 90% of your horsepower is needed to overcome the drag due to the air. That drag increases exponentially. That means you will need 4 times as much power to go twice as fast. It's not linear. Be certain that you will need at least 500 hp at the wheels to be able to go that fast. I'm not saying you can't do it. Obviously you can, but it's going to cost you and is it worth it just to be able to brag about it? I hope you live to tell the story. Good luck.

the porsche 959 did 210 MPH with 480 hp, so yeah, i agree, about 500 hp is a nice round number. i disagree with the stiff suspension though. My chevy citation 4 door handles high speed better than my citation x-11, and the x-11 has wider tires AND much stiffer susupsnion

This is what 200+ looks like and it's no Fiero:

http://www.collegehumor.com/?movie_id=160131

quote Originally posted by fieroturbo: Don't forget though, a jumbo jet has wings meant for lift.

I spy an airplane's airfoil in reverse.