Anyone have a good source for cold air intakes for my SBC? It will mount on an Edelbrock 600 CFM carb.

Thanks!

Hey! I'm interested too! I've got my own little plan but I would like to see what others are doing.

-Tim

How much room do you have?
I plan on putting a Mopar 6 pack scoop on my hood so I can fit a pretty large colector over the carb.
The plan is to have at the least 3 inches above the carb with a polished cone inside to help air flow into the carb.
Then duct in cold air from a scoop on the fender where the stock one is located.
It is all in my head right now.

When I ran a carb, I used an ATI/Procharger carb hat and a long section of 3" stainless steel and put the filter behind the DS panel.

I have since sold off the carb hat, but I still have the stainless pipe, rubber hose and the filter just sitting on the shelf (PM me offers if you want them).

Space is not an issue since I have a Fino with the glass hatch on the rear. I am wondering if I can use the intakes just behind each side window as dual cold air intakes? Would I lose air if I left them facing away from the front?

Maybe I should find a way to reverse them for the ram-air effect?

What do you think?

[This message has been edited by Saxman (edited 08-01-2005).]

andrew, aren't your rear quarter panels cutout infront of the wheel? thats generally the best place for the filter -- I can take some measurements off it and one weekend we can weld up an intake for it

Sorry, but I have never been a fan of the carb hat. For starters I don't like the look when you open the hood, and second, you have a limited size of pipe feeding it. A 600 cfm carb normally takes 5 &1/8" size inlet for a reason.

The Moroso style of 14" X1.5" K&N breaths over 1000 cfm and the drop style of cleaner only uses 2.25" (edit) of overall height.

You can get a nice aftermarket chrome one pretty cheap, and frankly it looks a whole lot better. This is normally what is used in carbureted Corvettes.

Just my .02

Arn

[This message has been edited by Arns85GT (edited 08-02-2005).]

I'm with you, Arn. It doesn't look very sporty.

Kohburn, your plan sounds great! The area in front of the rear wheels is not cut out, yet. It can be done very easily, though.

I'm wondering if it would look cool to use those upper vents as intakes, or am I just making a lot of work for myself?...

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: Sorry, but I have never been a fan of the carb hat. For starters I don't like the look when you open the hood, and second, you have a limited size of pipe feeding it. A 600 cfm carb normally takes 5 &1/8" size inlet for a reason. The Moroso style of 14" X1.5" K&N breaths over 1000 cfm and the drop style of cleaner only uses 2.25" (edit) of overall height. You can get a nice aftermarket chrome one pretty cheap, and frankly it looks a whole lot better. This is normally what is used in carbureted Corvettes. Just my .02 Arn

But it's not a cold air intake. that's just an open element filter, right?

That is correct, however, as has been pointed out on numerous occassions to the CRX intake threads, there is very little difference between the stock Fiero intake and the CRX intake in terms of flow and heat. I personally maintain the CRX is a bit better but that has been debated to death, and it should be noted there are some pretty fast V8 conversions using the stock Fiero intake.

I would just as soon engineer some overall breathing to the engine compartment over a 3" pipe to the carb intake.

In my case I have a scoop and Hayden fans mounted in the vents. However, side scoops opening into the engine cavity on each side would do just as good a job, look good and stylish to boot, and you would be able to use the much better breathing standard filter system with a cooler engine bay all way round.

You have to ask if a little cooler air flowing through a 3" tube can equal a little warmer air flowing at double the volume.

In my view, cooling the engine bay delivers more hp all round for a carb'd car, and you will benefit the most in terms of compression and high rpm torque by giving the carb all the air it can use.

Again, just my .02

Arn

probably the first time I've heard anyone complain about a cold air intake being restrictive.. if 3" isn't enough then go with dual setup - it'd be easy in the fino to put a cone filter on each side and have dual 3" cold air intakes

edit: did you say "a little warmer air" when is the last time you opened up the trunk right after a drive? its cooking in there , dunno about you but in my book hot air = less dense air and increase detonation - retarding timing to reduce detonation .. all these = less power -- there are plenty of people making over 400hp using a 3-3.5" cold air intake. compare that 7.06 squar inch cross section to the combine 4 valves on a 4bbl carb of about 3-4 square inches.. (depending on throttle plate size) I highly doubt a 3" intake is going to be too restrictive for it but if its a concern then you can double it for 14.12 square inches of cross section thats 3-4 times the cross sectional air flow as the throttle plates allow

[This message has been edited by Kohburn (edited 08-02-2005).]

Point well taken, however, a carb does not behave like MPFI.

I've been researching this alot lately due to heat issues and making my carb system work. This includes talking to Holley extensively.

My carb peak heat is 105*F. My manifold peak heat is 182*F.

The air comes in either up over the engine or down thru a scoop. So when I say a "little heat" I am talking about the difference of not too much over 90* outside air this summer and my carb heat.

I stand by my position of the standard filter system working better for a carb. Sure I know V8's putting out 400+ hp with high flow air induction system, but, the higher you go with naturally aspirated carb'd hp, especially in racing applications, the more you don't see air induction.

This is a good explanation for why racing applications use air cleaners.

http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?catcode=34003

Good discussion BTW.

Arn

I assume the 105 degree temp is the surface temp of the carb, not the air surrounding it. The carb will be much cooler due to the vaporizing of the fuel. Air temps under the hood vs outside the car are much greater than 15 degrees normally.

I ran the 3" tube for over 3000 miles on my ZZ4 spec SBC and never noticed it to be restrictive, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

The problem with the cold air induction on a carb is that it is not Fuel Injection and does not auto compensate for changes in temp. In the morning you will give it 70 degree air, but mid day it could be 90. Across several weeks the temps can rise and drop 40 degrees. If you have an 02 reader you will see the different jetting requirements needed as the time of the day passes. In the morning it will run lean, but be fine in the afternoon. So if you change the jets in the morning, you will be changing them back in the afternoon. The spring and fall months are the worst due to the larger temp changes and you can forget about running it in the winter.

If you take in engine compartment temp air, you will get a lot more stable air intake temp and your carb settings will be more constant, than with a cold air intake.

Just one of the reasons I have a RamJet EFI unit on my car now!

i have two ideas but no v8. this is the first one from an old thread...

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20030204-1-021087.html

i had this working on a 4cyl and i believe it would work with a v8. i put an indy scoop on my chopper and i hope the idea will transfer using a better flowing carb hat if i ever finish it.

the second i don't have a pic of but i recently put it on the same car. it's two fi-air-o type scoops with aluminum canisters at their bases. each holds a conical filter and feeds the duke intake. i cut the snorkel on the air filter housing and tee'd a 3.5" tube onto it that connects to each filter canister. again, when i try a more serious attempt i'll be looking at modding a carb hat to connect them to.

------------------
Phil T.

start where you are,
use what you have,
do what you can. arthur ashe

First off, the carb does not vapourize gas. In fact, vapour in a carb is a very bad thing. It causes "vapour lock".

A carb atomizes the fuel, creating little droplets that are suspended in the air flow.

Second, the hat will satisfactorily service a 2 barrel carb, but definitely is less than optimum for a 4 barrel. The reason is that each barrel needs air with a minimum of turbulence to get sucked in through it's venturi. With a side entry like the hat, air for the second set of barrels has to be in turbulence to get there. Either it has to swirl, or it has to cross over the neighbouring barrel to reach the downwind barrel.

Here is a pick which demonstrates why the vast majority of performance carb'd cars use a circular air breather. Note that Holley also makes a really nice air breather which draws from two opposing sides so each set of barrels get fed evenly. BTW, the Moroso design is widely copied and the type is known in many performance shops as the "Corvette aircleaner"

With all due respect to all, I am willing to bet that any 4 barrel v8 using a hat will perform better with a well designed circular air cleaner.

I have ran my car hard with the cold air intake and with an open element air filter - it just did not make a noticable difference. But then again, the Fiero engine bay does not provide sufficient space to use a very large circular filter setup anyway, and if it fits a good portion of it is cramped along the decklid hinge support, so maybe my open element one was as restrictive at the hat due to the Fiero application.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 08-02-2005).]

The drop style 14" clears the braces so far as my measurements told me, but this one looks cool and is supposed to be highly efficient per Holley. It may fit with the V8 dimensions. It didn't for the V6 config. unless you didn't want to open the deck lid.

Arn

what if you used something like this instead of a regular carb hat?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dodge-Durango-Dakota-Ram-Dual-Intake-3-9-5-2-5-9-V8_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ38634QQitemZ7990844498QQrdZ1

so that the intake didn't have to narrow down into just a 3" or 3.5" intake opening. something similar to this is what i'm wanting to try bettween my dual intakes.

I jsut sent the dual intake seller on eBay a message asking about custome intakes.

Thanks for showing!

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: Arn

Where can I find one of these for sale?

The Hi-Tek is at JCWhitney, however any good speed shop can order them in and you may get a better price.

http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Browse/showCustom-0/c-10101/Nty-1/Ntx-mode+matchallpartial/Nao-10/N-10101/tf-Browse/s-10101/Ntk-AllTextSearchGroup?Ntt=air%20cleaner

Arn

the ebay one would make setup easy - but i don't like the design - like arns said too much turbulance

the aspect of the engine bay heat keeping your fuel trim consitant is something i hadn't though about - keep in mind this is under a FINALI glass hatch - so it may get hotter than even a stock fiero bay - not sure..

he has plenty of room in his engine bay to do a real top down ram tube intake.. done right it would look pretty darn cool

normal carb operation is in front engine cars that have a very strong supply of fresh air - if he uses a non cold air intake on his engine i would atleast recomment opening up some airflow and installing some compact axhiliary fans to draw fresh air into the engine bay and old out

Agreed,

I've had heat issues with my carb.

The answer for me was to mount 84 vent covers with 10" Hayden fans inset. The fans kick out 650 cfm a piece, and they look nice. Of course not everybody likes the fan-in-the-cowling look. The two fans can lower the engine bay temp 20* in about 1 minute. Pretty impressive.

Arn

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: The drop style 14" clears the braces so far as my measurements told me, but this one looks cool and is supposed to be highly efficient per Holley. It may fit with the V8 dimensions. It didn't for the V6 config. unless you didn't want to open the deck lid. Arn

Ack ! Beotch ganked my image ! Ack !

I got mine last week. Just need the engine in the car now

DLD

[This message has been edited by RacerX10 (edited 08-03-2005).]

Ahhh, the Hi Tek. Pretty good looking, too bad you have to cut almost half off to make it fit in a stock engine bay.
Works real well though then, if your trying to get the fuel in your carb to perculate.

I still use mine for shows (saves me from detailing the carb), but for driving it goes into the trunk.

Now if you got more room back there cause you swapped the body, like you Saxman.
It just might work in it's orginal form, but just keep in mind the thing being solid metal, it will soak up the heat from the surrounding area
and create hotter than usual air. Carbs don't like that.

Tina

Now on the lighter side of things ...
You guys think it is possible to get one of those microwave popcorn bags to pop if left in there for a while.
We were contemplating this at CarCraft a few weeks ago
Proper saftey percautions of course. Wouldn't want to get greasy pop corn all over the engine.

------------------

Tina, you da man...er - you know... Very impressive work on your baby.

I should avoid this holly intake altogether and work on the cold intake right away. I drove for a while today and the engine temp eventually went up to 260. It was 94 outside, so things were higer than what it would be normally. Cold intakes would make a huge difference for sure.

I'll be on eBay looking for some 3.5" piping! There is plenty of room in there.

Again, will the top-side intakes work if I leave them facing backwards?

no they need to let hot air OUT of the engine bay - and draw cool air up through the engine bay..

one option is stainless steal flexible interlocking exhaust tubing - to make the ductwork easier then custom fab up properly shaped hat for the carb to accept two 3" lines

its alot easier to weld stainless than aluminum

Good point, Kohburn. Using the upper grill as a vent instead of an intake will not look as cool to me, but the air needs to move out, too.

Hmmm - lots of options...

quote Originally posted by Saxman:

there was a time when i tried to explain how a scoop like that could take in air and let out air at the same time. essentially by having two separate chambers in the same housing. i tried to show it once when i was right at the beginning of the experiment but people focus on the picture without reading anything i wrote.

but i can see it working on this car too. might mess up your bodywork in that area working it out though, requiring another paint job or a real good touch up. sorry i can't do pics anymore, but try to imagine a scoop with an opening maybe 1/2 to 2/3 the width of the rear facing scoop, internally it tapers down to a 2 1/2-3 1/2' opening that you would connect tubing to a hat for for the intake.the rest of the area under the scoop would still be open to vent engine air.

not sure if the description works but i know it's possible 'cause it's an experiment i finished recently.

quote Originally posted by Saxman: Tina, you da man...er - you know... Very impressive work on your baby. Again, will the top-side intakes work if I leave them facing backwards?

Thanks.
Honestly Saxman, at the moment I just can't picture how much more room you got due to the body kit.
I've talked to people with Ferrari kits that were able to fit the whole darn thing and close the lid, but that is them.

Now reading this post over again, I think I got the drift on what you were thinking about.
Use the Hi-Tek as part of a dual air intake. Take the air from the window vents to bring down the temps.
# 1 Problem is, the darn thing get's so hot underneath, you can fry an egg on the Hi-Tek.
So you would have to find something simular, staying away from metal.
# 2 The air from the vents will carry dirt. Considering you got the glass cover, you will have to find a real good filter, wouldn't want to scratch that glass.
Cause you will see an increased amount of dirt in the engine bay.

Still, looking at your car. You really don't have a place to vent. That seems to be the main issue.
My approach, if it was my car. Take the back lid off, beat on it and see what the temp does.
I got this feeling that you are not nessesarily making more heat, rather ... considering the back end of it,
are storing it in back more than a conventional set up.

BTW ... These slots above the back lights, any way you could vent/force the hot air out there?
Perhaps with (I don't know, how many slots do you have?) 7 or 8 little fans?
Your carb would a lot happier, I bet.
If you still wanted to go with a cold air intake, i'd take it from the quarter panels though. Making them functional, sticking some filter behind them connected to some flexible tubing and run it into the carb from one or both sides.

Good Luck with it
Tina

quote Originally posted by Kohburn: then custom fab up properly shaped hat for the carb to accept two 3" lines

i've thought some about this but until a new engine actually happens (or at least i can get more looks at some swaps) i can't experiment with it.

i'm thinking if there's enough clearance under the trunk lid, if a hat could be made out of like about a 5-8" diameter aluminum tube using a shallow velosity stack as it's bottom. seems like that would work for flow into the carb, especially if it's pulling from two openings or a fairly wide oval one instead of one 3-3 1/3" opening.

how about this?

oh yeah, if anyone finds one of these at the wrecker i could be interested in purchasing from you. i was told it is off an early 90s caddy 4.9

[This message has been edited by riley (edited 08-04-2005).]

this is kid of what I had in mind of welding out of 3" tube plus two flat peices in the hat section - there are a lot of different transitions that could he done in that area.. may even make more sence to use a standard cylinder filter and simply have the tubing to duct the air to the filter since the filter itself smooths the flow of air into the carb

Kohburn, that is a nice little design.

The thing you could do to improve it would be to have the pipes come in to the hat at 180* from each other.

That would ensure each bank of barrels got it's own air stream.

Having those K&N"s under the grills should work.

Arn

quote Originally posted by Kohburn: this is kid of what I had in mind of welding out of 3" tube plus two flat peices in the hat section - there are a lot of different transitions that could he done in that area.. may even make more sence to use a standard cylinder filter and simply have the tubing to duct the air to the filter since the filter itself smooths the flow of air into the carb

that's about what i want to try. at the moment since i am just using a stock duke filter housing in the middle i am just using the stock style air filter instead of the cones in the side housings. didn't see the need of starting to use them with just the 4cyl.

i'm gonna make an attempt to grab my brother's camera if he has it 'cause that's real close to where i am now. my middle section's pretty rough though 'cause i just don't feel the need to put a lot of effort into it for a duke.

quote Originally posted by Tina: Honestly Saxman, at the moment I just can't picture how much more room you got due to the body kit. I've talked to people with Ferrari kits that were able to fit the whole darn thing and close the lid, but that is them. Now reading this post over again, I think I got the drift on what you were thinking about. Still, looking at your car. You really don't have a place to vent. That seems to be the main issue. My approach, if it was my car. Take the back lid off, beat on it and see what the temp does. I got this feeling that you are not nessesarily making more heat, rather ... considering the back end of it, are storing it in back more than a conventional set up. BTW ... These slots above the back lights, any way you could vent/force the hot air out there? Perhaps with (I don't know, how many slots do you have?) 7 or 8 little fans? Your carb would a lot happier, I bet. If you still wanted to go with a cold air intake, i'd take it from the quarter panels though. Making them functional, sticking some filter behind them connected to some flexible tubing and run it into the carb from one or both sides.

Tina,

Like your friends with the Ferrari kits, the space I have is huge. ANY intake would fit in here. I did feel the hatch-glass after a 5 mile run and it was almost too hot to leave my hand on. It has to be bad for the carb.

Maybe pulling air in from above to feed the carb along with opening up the black-painted area just in front of the rear wheels will help the overall circulation - possibly forcing air out those slots above the tail-lights. I could also put a cold air intake inside the quarter panel like you say, if I decided to stay away from the upper vents. If I did, I wouldn't need the dual intake - but I think it would look cool. Decisions, decisions...

quote Originally posted by Kohburn: this is kid of what I had in mind of welding out of 3" tube plus two flat peices in the hat section - there are a lot of different transitions that could he done in that area.. may even make more sence to use a standard cylinder filter and simply have the tubing to duct the air to the filter since the filter itself smooths the flow of air into the carb

Kohburn,

That graphic is just what I had in mind. That's a great idea to have open pipes feed into a circular filter, but would the casing for the filter be so large that it would look awkward? Could two filtered pipes come together into one that dumps straight down into the carb? I suppose that would cut down the air flow to the carb...

I need to at least get something temporary in for now. Something like this (below) as Riley suggested would take care of things until I got the full dual intake figured out. I think it should reach down closer to the front of the wheel, though. I think I can make one of these from parts on eBay to get me by.

quote Originally posted by riley:

Thanks for all the great input - all of you!

Andrew

------------------
"87 GT
V8 FIno

[This message has been edited by Saxman (edited 08-04-2005).]

I'm planning to run mine in line with the engine centerline .. 90 deg out from how you have it. Low profile dist, or DIS if I can come up with it, and duct work from that intake over to filters mounted where the existing V6 air filter is and also another in place of where the battery is.

Also : Tina what intake manifold are you running ? I'm trying to figure out where it's all going to land, vertically.

DLD

quote Originally posted by Tina: Ahhh, the Hi Tek. Pretty good looking, too bad you have to cut almost half off to make it fit in a stock engine bay. Works real well though then, if your trying to get the fuel in your carb to perculate. I still use mine for shows (saves me from detailing the carb), but for driving it goes into the trunk. Now if you got more room back there cause you swapped the body, like you Saxman. It just might work in it's orginal form, but just keep in mind the thing being solid metal, it will soak up the heat from the surrounding area and create hotter than usual air. Carbs don't like that.

[This message has been edited by RacerX10 (edited 08-04-2005).]