quote Originally posted by eatoninside:Another thing I was going to look into was replacing the spark plugs with something that runs a little bit hotter. Anyone know what kind of plugs to use?? Right now I'm using the stock plugs. This whole bogging down and no power is just boggleing me! I just don't know what else to do...I just keep thinking it HAS to be something to do with my ignition. I'm going nuts! Oh, and another thing, when I pulled one of my plugs yesterday, I remarked how black it was. When I pulled them today they were looking good, just like they should.

Hotter spark plugs are very bad for a turbo engine. If anything you want a cooler plug. The reason is detonation. A hotter plug is more likely to cause detonation.

What is your A/F meter reading when your engine bogs? If it is running as rich as you are describing then your car will easily bog. Try leaning it out a little and see if that makes a difference.

You may want to try running AC Delco CR42TS plugs. I was running the NGK and I had some problems with them so I tried these which were recommeneded to me. So far I like them and am having good luck.

To be fair, on KFG's web site they say if you have an 88 you have to purchase a 85-87 lead pipe. That would be why your downpipe wouldnt match up.

Special Note: All turbo kits are designed for the 85-87 Fiero V-6 in mind. If you have a 88 you will also need a 87 style J-Pipe. (From the FieroStore.com) 85-87 V6 PERFORMANCE HEAD PIPE Part # 54401 | $39.95 or similar.

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: To be fair, on KFG's web site they say if you have an 88 you have to purchase a 85-87 lead pipe. That would be why your downpipe wouldnt match up. Special Note: All turbo kits are designed for the 85-87 Fiero V-6 in mind. If you have a 88 you will also need a 87 style J-Pipe. (From the FieroStore.com) 85-87 V6 PERFORMANCE HEAD PIPE Part # 54401 | $39.95 or similar.

Yes, Dennis did tell me I'd have to make some exhaust modifications to the downpipe when I ordered the kit. Why they don't make a style for the 88 I just don't know.

Update: Dennis contacted me again. He told me to update my ignition, which I already have done. I will be interested to see what he writes back, as the updated ignition did not help me at all. Made ZERO difference. I will look into getting a MSD 6A box tomorrow. Also tomorrow I will hook my car up to the TECH 1 scan tool. I tried to do it on Saturday, but one of the mechanics must have hidden it in their toolbox as I could not locate it. I'll look at the O2 sensor, the TPS voltage, and check for any codes that may be present. I will also pull one of the plugs and see what number they are. Then I'll re-time the thing. I hope that right now it isn't timed right and that is what my problem is.

Stay tuned, and thanks to all those who have replied. This really is a great Fiero community!

-Tanner

[This message has been edited by eatoninside (edited 04-04-2004).]

Hope you get it figured out and running...that thing is going to be super fast! Glad to hear Dennis is helping out and keeping in contact. He sounds like a good guy. I might have said it before, but I have a "young" 2.8 I've thought about turboing it with a kit from Dennis...when I have the mula

good luck
Dave

Yeah please don't forget to update us

Okay, Dennis emailed me again. He told me to hook up the scan tool and check for the BLM and integrator numbers. I checked them, but I don't really know what I'm supposed to be looking for. The Block Learn is at 120, and the Fuel integrator goes up and down. I checked for codes, and I'm getting a code 22 (TPS voltage low) and code 25 (incoming air temp high). I could expect the code 25, as the air coming in is compressed, making it hotter.

I also checked my O2 sensor readout. I'm getting 1000+ mV at WOT and about 800 at cruising. Isn't this going to be too high?? I'm out of ideas here on why this thing has no power and bogs down. Should I swap out the TPS? It was brand new 3,000 miles ago. I have another 88 v-6 here that I could swap the TPS out of.

1000mV from the O2 is totally rich. When my A/F ratio was 9 to 10 my O2 never got to 1V (did high 900s). So I guess either the O2 may be shot or your fuel management is caput. Try checking all the wiring and connections. Once I had a TPS code and the problem was that the IAT sensor got disconnected.

I checked my spark plugs and they are the 42TS variety, so no problem there. I checked the voltage to the coil, checks out at 11.8 volts with the engine off. Just a thought, could my MAP sensor be bad? I did install the 2 BAR sensor that came with the kit. It only reads 2.8 volts at 5 psi. Is this normal for a 2 BAR? With the engine off, it reads about 2 volts, which is far from spec of around 4 volts. Today I checked the timing, it all checks out at 10 degrees advance. All of my wires are hooked up. All of my sensors are reading according to the Tech 1.

I'm getting tired....I just want this dang thing to work. I don't want to have to take it off and send it back for a refund.

I know it sucks but keep working at it. Its probably something simple. My best friend garth is a GM FI guru. He knows all the specs they should be within off the top of his head. Just for SAG what temp does the scan tool show your coolant temp at? Also, I'll have to check but shouldnt the MAP voltage be closer to 1.48v?

quote Originally posted by eatoninside: I did install the 2 BAR sensor that came with the kit. It only reads 2.8 volts at 5 psi. Is this normal for a 2 BAR? With the engine off, it reads about 2 volts, which is far from spec of around 4 volts.

According to this link http://www.syty.org/old/d&e-code33.html the stock (1 BAR) MAP sensor should put out about 1 to 1.5 volts at idle (high vac) and 4 to 4.5 volts with the engine off (i.e., reading atmospheric pressure). A 2 BAR sensor reads up to 2 atmospheres pressure, so seeing 2 volts with the engine off would be about right (the sensor is "seeing" about mid-range pressure and providing about mid-range output voltage). Likewise, seeing about 2.8 volts at 5 psi seems about right, since this is a little less than 3/4 of the 2 BAR sensor range.

What are the 19 lb injectors out of ?
Have you replaced the O2 sensor since you loaded it down w/ oil?

Don't know how much of a difference it makes on a 2.8 but on the turbocharged ls1 engines they were having problems with them making power above about 3500-4500 rpm's and it turned out all that was wrong was the valvesprings were too weak. May not be the problem but something to consider?

oops
I missed that while reading.

[This message has been edited by 85LAMB (edited 04-06-2004).]

quote Originally posted by eatoninside: Today I checked the timing, it all checks out at 10 degrees advance. All of my wires are hooked up. . .

quote Originally posted by ws6fiero: What are the 19 lb injectors out of ? Have you replaced the O2 sensor since you loaded it down w/ oil?

The injectors were brand new. I got them from five-o motorsport. The O.E. fitment was from a Jeep. They are pintle type. Someone on the forum was running them with good results.

I have not replaced the O2 sensor. It was brand new before I put the turbo on. When I hooked up the scan tool it was reading like it should, so there should be no reason to replace it.

Just for SAG I replaced the fuel filter last night. Of course this did not help, I didn't expect it to, but there is just another possiblity checked off the list.

As for coolant temp, I'm running at about 220. Has run at that temp ever since I bought the car, even before I put the 3.4 in. And I've replaced the thermostat too.

I still think my problem is in the ignition somewhere, I just can't figure out what it is. I've replaced the coil, wires, and tested voltage to the coil. I'm running the correct spark plugs at the gap recommended to me here. I just plain don't get it. I'm building plenty of boost (8 psi), the thing just doesn't have any power. It will barely accellerate under throttle.

I'd say it's time to go 'back to basics'.

You've of course checked your fuel pressure on the rail right?
Hook up a vaccum gauge (ignore the boost gauge for the moment) and see what readings you get.
Hook up a timing light, and watch what the actual timing readings are (idle, and when being revved).

Since you're getting so good at pulling the plugs do a compression test (stuff happens!).

As for the richness - have you tried pulling the fuel supply to your cold start injector? Not just yanking the wire off (though that's a good start!).

Your missing what I am asking. When the scan tool is hooked up what temp does the ECM coolant sensor show? Now look at what temp the guage shows. For example, when I built Jesse's 4.9 fiero it ran like crap or not at all. Then I was playing with the scan tool and noticed the ECM thought the engine was -63 deg but the guage read 110! I replaced the ECM coolant sensor and the car ran perfect. Might not be your problem but it could rule out one more thing.

Steven

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: Your missing what I am asking. When the scan tool is hooked up what temp does the ECM coolant sensor show? Now look at what temp the guage shows. For example, when I built Jesse's 4.9 fiero it ran like crap or not at all. Then I was playing with the scan tool and noticed the ECM thought the engine was -63 deg but the guage read 110! I replaced the ECM coolant sensor and the car ran perfect. Might not be your problem but it could rule out one more thing. Steven

I understood what you are asking. When I had the scan tool hooked up, the ECM reported the temperature as around 220.

EDIT: I did test the fuel pressure. At idle it reads 35 psi, at WOT on the road it reads 50 psi. My Fuel Integrator is around 70. One of the mechanics here thinks I'm not getting enough fuel and that I should replace my fuel pump with a higher flow one.

[This message has been edited by eatoninside (edited 04-06-2004).]

Do you have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator?

We are corresponding with Tanner to help solve the problem. It's quite difficult to pinpoint exactly what is going on but obviously something is amiss. No codes should register if the sensors are working correctly. I suspect that the engine is running a bit rich. We can easily make changes to the fueling tables in the chip but must first make sure that the chip program is the problem. If you bolt a turbo on a weak engine or if something is not quite right, boost tends to make things worse. Once everything has been fully checked out, we can alter the chip program to see if that improves things. I suspect that installing spiral core ignition wires may help. I sure wish that the engine was here for us to scan and data log over a wide range of conditions. We will continue to offer assistance until we get down to the root of the problem.

------------------
87GT 3.4 Turbo Best 0-60 5.2 seconds
http://www.turbochargerpower.com/turbo.htm

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: We will continue to offer assistance until we get down to the root of the problem.

We always knew you'd be there for 'im Dennis. Good on ya.

I'm sure it'll all turn out to be some fairly simple "Aha!" type thing in the end. It's not like nobody's ever done this!

It's good to see that there are people (and companies) that know what customer service is......try to get that kind of help from a major mfr. (press 1 for our web address, press 2 to get lost, press 3 to get hung up on) if I ever do a turbo, Dennis is on my list

-T

Me and Dennis have been corresponding back and forth today. I had some codes so he suggested I clear them. I did, and test drove. The thing ran great for a mile or so, then started running badly again. No power, spewing black smoke like crazy. I then shut off the engine for a sec and restarted. It had all its power back! This has been going on ever since I cleared the codes. I've gone out and driven it several different times within the last hour. Sometimes it runs like crap and has no power, others it has great power and accellerates quite nicely! However, when I put the pedal to the metal (whether it is running good or not) I get a LOT of black smoke.

No, I do not have an adjustable pressure regulator.

sounds like it runs good in open loop, but when it swtiches over to closed loop, and starts running off the sensors and modified settings its acting up. I'm sure Dennis will have you fixed up and zipping around in no time..

As a fellow turbo car owner, i own a 93 awd talon, and a fwd tsi as well as my fiero gt, but did u upgrade your fuel pump , just a thought. And also do u have a boost controller? I also remember u saying that u didnt have your boost guage hooked up, there for the boost could be going past what u think and it could be getitng fuel cut. That could be casuing your surging and bucking past 3200 rpm.Keep in mind if u are overboosting and u dont have an intercooler the incoming air will be heated up and u wont make any power, u will do in fact what u are talking about the surging above 3200 rpm. I dont know to much about turbo fieros, but i do know about turbo;s in general. keep us posted and good luck

I had one of the mechanics come for a ride with me tonight after work. We had the Tech 1 hooked up and everything. It ran like CRAZY for a few minutes, then started losing power really bad. We went back to the shop and turned on the field service mode or backup fuel diagnostic mode, I can't remember right now. Apparently you are supposed to time it with this on or something. Anyway, he determined my timing was too retarded. He re-timed it. I drove it home from work tonight (30 miles) and it worked really good. I didn't have any of the power loss that I'd experienced before, although it did stumble once when I was accellerating from a stop light. I didn't really check to see if it still blows black smoke under throttle though. I'll have to check that and get back with y'all.

Overall, the thing is running pretty good. It seems to have all the power there. It sure will break the back end loose!!!

Happiness is owning a Turbo Fiero!

Tanner, has Brandon or Jerry looked at it?

quote Originally posted by SCCA FIERO: Tanner, has Brandon or Jerry looked at it?

No, I had Tom look at it. I bought him lunch so he looked at it for me.

I guess setting the timing correctly and clearing the codes worked. I drove it around town all night looking for a race (just stoplight to stoplight sort of thing). An Eagle Talon (turbo, AWD) saw me go by and hunted me down. He asked if I wanted to play around, so I said sure. We lined up at a stoplight. When the light turned green I punched it, but it looked like the Talon didn't even move, I just left him in the dust. He caught up with me at the local ricer hangout and said he popped the clutch and almost killed the engine in his car! I thought that was pretty funny. I mean geez, learn how to drive.

The car is really pretty fast. It isn't quite as fast as I was expecting, but fast nonetheless. I think the chip still needs some tweaking though. It still blows black smoke when I give it the gas. And say I'm in 2nd gear and I floor it...it sort of bogs down until I let off to 3/4 throttle then it just takes off like a rocket.

Chris, we'll definately have to race sometime, I'd be interested to see what a 3.4 would do against a 2.8. Man, if you're faster then I'll have wasted money on the 3.4.

Sounds like it is working and just needs tuned properly. A little black smoke is expected and good. Better to be running a little rich than lean. Just keep it tuned.

------------------
87 Fiero GT (3.2 Turbo)
E-mail: davidfiero@hotmail.com
www.angelfire.com/pa5/davidfiero/

does this kit have an inter-cooler, does not look like it? do you need one with this setup, or no room in engine compartment? is there a kit that does have and intercooler, cause i am looking for a turbo kit and it doesn't seem right not to have one, detination in all.

------------------
1987 Gold SE
V6, 5spd, sunroof, 65k miles on the clock
Mods= underdrive pulley, no cat, exhaust cut out, new exhaust, accel coil, 8mm plug wires, occasionally a stage 2 jet chip, k&n filter

quote Originally posted by fierose87: does this kit have an inter-cooler, does not look like it? do you need one with this setup, or no room in engine compartment? is there a kit that does have and intercooler, cause i am looking for a turbo kit and it doesn't seem right not to have one, detination in all.

No, this kit does not have an intercooler. Of the kits out there, none of them have intercoolers. If you want an intercooler, you'd have to build it into the system yourself. I know there are people out there who have done it though. I'd like to have one, I just don't know where how I'd route the intake lines or where I'd put the intercooler.

quote Originally posted by eatoninside: No, this kit does not have an intercooler. Of the kits out there, none of them have intercoolers. If you want an intercooler, you'd have to build it into the system yourself. I know there are people out there who have done it though. I'd like to have one, I just don't know where how I'd route the intake lines or where I'd put the intercooler.

thats what i was woundering. i was thinking maybe in the fender where the stock intake goes. something like a ford probe intercooler sidemount or something of that nature.

does not having the intercooler affect the life of the engine at all?

It seems common to put the interecooler under the driverside engine grille if your setup has room. A forum member tested this location a while back and gained 20hp on the dyno. I believe Travis (1fst2m6) did the testing. I plan to put a Saab IC there as a few other members have done (the test was done with a spearco). I may have to put a spal puller fan on top of the IC, OR I might use the Fi-Air-O scoop I have to feed air thru the IC, and then just make a duct work piece that offers a place for this pressurized air to vent.

quote Originally posted by fierose87: thats what i was woundering. i was thinking maybe in the fender where the stock intake goes. something like a ford probe intercooler sidemount or something of that nature. does not having the intercooler affect the life of the engine at all?

I don't know that you could quantify the result of a non-intercooled turbo i.e. it will take 5,000 miles off the life of the engine, 7,000 miles etc. But, yes compressed air heats up and does put more of a thermal load on the engine, and when it's 100* outside and you are forcing 150* air into the engine, power will suffer.
The key to an intercooler is: what is the outgoing temp from the compressor and what is the incoming temp to the engine? Intercoolers have to have sufficent air flow to be effective. Problem with the Fiero is where do you put it and how many degrees is it reducing the air to the engine..........Paul

Is there a way to put an intercooler on this setup or would you have to mount the turbo in a different place. It looks like the commpressor side basically exits into the manifold. with no room to route to a intercooler.

It looks like you could still mount an IC like DarthFiero in front of the cradle. You would run the pipe from turbo, down to the IC, and back up to the TB. However, with the 2.8/3.4, that is where theexhaust runs, so it might not be all that helpful. Maybe darth can chime in here...

With some minor fiddling, you can rotate the housing on these through 360* AFAIK.

Why not use the watercooler, I have it in my setup, itīs very efficient, without it the intake air temp is around 80-90 degrees celsius and with this water cooler the temp goes to 40-50 degrees celsius, you can see the HUGE difference !
These water coolers are made in Finland and you can buy them from http://www.amworks.com/ the prise is around: 500 us$
in addition to the cooler itself you need some hoses and a small radiator in front of the original fiero radiator, a direct fit is a Ford Fiesta radiator + a electric water pump, I have a mercedes benz interior heater core systems water pump, which is very cheap at salvage yard and is enough powerful for the setup.

Here is couple pictures, in the first one you can see the piping & engine and in the other picture is the cooler itself.

Best to ya all, Mika