That's right! The wonderful man in the brown truck brought me my Dennis LaGrua turbo kit yesterday! I'm pretty pumped about it.
I've been looking at turbo kits for almost a year now. I finally decided on buying Dennis' kit because he offered it for the 3.4L and it came with all hardware and a programmed computer chip for the right fuel management. As I was researching this topic, I was dissapointed to see there wasn't that much information on turbo kits in the forum archives, let alone a writeup of a Dennis turbo kit install. So I've decided to dedicate this thread to my installation of this kit.
I wanted to post some pictures I took today of the kit, but I couldn't get PIP to work. It just locked up on me whenever I tried to post the pictures. Has anyone else had this problem? What could I be doing wrong?
So far I have only installed two items on the kit. I didn't really have any time to do it yesterday as I was working from 8 am until 9:30 pm. The first step in the installation is to install the computer chip and the 2 Bar map sensor. I have completed this with ease and started the engine up. Everything ran fine, which is a good sign I installed the chip and sensor right. Piece of cake! I also installed the fitting on the hose for the oil return line. This required some effort to get that dang fitting on, but after I sprayed a little Super Lube on it, it went in fine.
The next step is to remove the oil pan and drill a hole for the oil return line. As far as I can tell this will be the most difficult part of the installation. Since the engine is already in the car, I will have to remove the starter and front engine mount before the oil pan can come out. I don't know when I will be able to complete this as I have to get under the car to do this. I work at a Pontiac dealership so I have access to the shop, hoists, mechanics, and all sorts of nifty equipment. As of yet, the shop is extremely busy and an open bay has not become available. It may be a few days before I am able to get access to a lift, but I will keep everyone posted on the status.
Stay tuned for more info.
-Tanner
------------------ 88 GT 3.4L 5-speed, Lime Green 03 CTS, Orange
Well, last night I was able to use one of the hoists here at the shop to get under the car to remove the oil pan. It took a lot longer than I had expected. To remove the pan, I had to first remove the starter, which is really a piece of cake. I started to unbolt the pan, and there was one nut by the motor mount that took me 1/2 hour to get off as it was extremely difficult to get to it with a wrench.
I thought the pan would just come out after it was unbolted, but much to my dismay it did not. The pan was wedged between the front motor mount. Turns out I had to unbolt the mount from the engine and the crade to remove it completely. I then got a jack of sorts and lifted the engine 6 inches or so by the harmonic balancer. The pan was then able to slide out. This whole process took several hours to complete, but I'm sure I could have done it in half the time now that I have done it once.
I then took a hole saw and drilled the hole for the oil return line. The required fittings were included to secure the oil line to the pan. I used some liquid teflon on the threads and some blue silicone around the fitting surfaces to make sure there were no leaks.
Today I will be removing the crossover pipe and fitting it with the new one. I hope to have most of the work done today. I will update as things become completed.
ahh yes, the joy of removing the pan. I had to move the exhaust to get mine out.. Glad to see you're on your way to owning your self a turbosaurus! You'll love it! Hopefully you put the oil return high enough to clear the axle and not in the way of any of the pan bolts.. hehe.
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02:18 PM
David DeVoe Member
Posts: 1358 From: Grand Blanc, MI US Registered: Jul 2001
I too will be following this thread. I have dreams of a LaGrua turbo kit and am looking for any info on the installation. Incomutt thats a good tip about clearance for the oil return line.. something many of us might not think of until its too late. I hate doing things twice.
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02:27 PM
2M4 Dale Member
Posts: 3461 From: Mansfield,Oh,U.S. Registered: Oct 1999
I just have to keep telling myself "eventually I'll have the cash" .... or "maybe I'll hit the lottery this week" !!!
Yeah, the only way I can afford it is because I'm young (22), single and work full time...and I've been saving for a long time!
UPDATE:
I was able to get the turbo kit installed today with the exception of the exhaust. The downpipe was too long, so I've got to have an exhaust shop do the plumbing for me. I am very disappointed with the instructions that came with the kit. They didn't tell me crap! I still have brackets left over and I have no clue where they are supposed to go. Also, not all required hardware was included in the kit. I had to get a couple of brass adapters in order to hook up the oil feed line and the oil pressure sender. I also had to get a few misc. bolts and nuts. Right now I can't get the air filter to fit on the intake tube. I don't know what the deal is, but there just plain isn't enough room.
I DID however, fire the thing up! At first I was scared because I was cranking and cranking and it wouldnt fire up. I had to press the pedal all the way to the floor for it to fire. When it did fire up, it idled at 2k RPM for a while, and ran VERY rich. There was so much smoke that I almost couldn't breathe. After I let it run for a while the idle dropped down to about 1500 RPM. The smoke all went away and it seemed to run better. I then decided to drive it around the block, just for kicks.
HOLY CRAP! I didn't know what I was in for. I only gave it 1/2 throttle as I pulled out onto the street and the thing just took off. It was so fast it literally scared me. The turbo wound up with a satisfying sound. When I let off and shifted there was a PSSSHH noise. It sounds really cool, at least I thought so. The only problem was it was cutting out really bad after 3k RPM. I don't know what is going on here. It is like it is missing really bad, or have a MAP sensor problem as the same condition existed when my other MAP went bad. My Air/Fuel gauge was reading fine, it wasn't running lean or too rich. I wish my boost gauge was hooked up so I could get an idea of what the Turbo was up to.
Any turbo guys have suggestions as to why it was cutting out? Also, when I would give it a lot of throttle it would sort of bog down.
Tomorrow I hope to check for any codes and possible vacuum leaks. I sure hope I find something and am able to make it run better. That is all for now. I'll keep everyone posted. Any questions about the install? It took me most of the day to do. That crossover pipe was a real pain.
[This message has been edited by eatoninside (edited 04-03-2004).]
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02:10 AM
G-Nasty Member
Posts: 2099 From: woodlands,TX,USA Registered: Jan 2001
Originally posted by eatoninside: The only problem was it was cutting out really bad after 3k RPM. I don't know what is going on here. It is like it is missing really bad, or have a MAP sensor problem as the same condition existed when my other MAP went bad. My Air/Fuel gauge was reading fine, it wasn't running lean or too rich. I wish my boost gauge was hooked up so I could get an idea of what the Turbo was up to.
Any turbo guys have suggestions as to why it was cutting out? Also, when I would give it a lot of throttle it would sort of bog down.
You are probably experiencing spark blowout. That is common on turbocharged cars. Gap your spark plugs down to .32-.28 and you shouldn't have any trouble. Once you find a gap where you don't have blowout anymore you can start working your way back up until you find the largest gap that you don't have spark blowout.
Another way around it is to upgrade your ignition system. That of course costs $$$.
What is your A/F when it bogs? You should be between 12 and 13 for maximum power. 11-12 if you are concerned about knock.
Interesting stuff to read but where are the PHOTOS????
Also a question about this Turbo kit --- Does the guy you purchased the kit from (expensive I assume) has provided any kind of support/help over the phone during the installation??? That's a good sign for a QUALITY Turbo kit to me....If you pay magabucks for such a kit, you should expect installation help over the phone at least...especially if the supplied installation instructions are incomplete....
Please post photos if you can....VK
[This message has been edited by goyal99 (edited 04-02-2004).]
Be careful if it's not running right. If it's losing power at WOT, it could be detonation. I think that kit uses a Nissan Skyline turbo for some reason.
And as mentioned earlier, you should close the gap on your plugs to .035, that's what mine are gapped.
Sorry to hear the insturctions suck. My Miller-Woods kit came with a book of very detailed instructions, even a parts list with numbers for everything.
Get it running right and we'll race (bring your pink slip)
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06:37 PM
NotAFieroAnyLonger Member
Posts: 4413 From: 75762/Texas/USA Registered: Dec 2003
This morning the exhaust shop was able to squeeze me in and connect the downpipe to the rest of my exhaust. Man, that car is a lot quieter now. The exhaust note used to be quite loud, it sounded lumpy and all. Now is is very quiet. Guess that's just what a turbo does!
I have gone out and driven the car more. It seems to run a little bit better. It still bogs a little at WOT though. And the bad news is I smell clutch. That clutch only had like 5,000 miles on it too. When I step on it, it does hesitate a little before it revs up, but I know this isn't turbo lag...it is something else.
I think I will take the advice of others and gap my spark plugs to 0.35. Right now I think they are at 0.45.
I sure hope I'm not getting any detonation...
It seems to be running rich or something. At WOT my A/F gauge reads quite rich, is this normal?
I got a TON of smoke out of it this morning when I started it up. It almost smelled like oil. The propshaft on the turbo impeller had quite a bit of play in it on both the exhaust and intake ends. One of our mechanics said this is a bad thing.
I think I'll drive the sucker around a little bit more to see if I can find any more flaws in the system. Then I'll probably contact Dennis and see if we can't get things worked out.
------------------ 88 GT 3.4L 5-speed, Lime Green 03 CTS, Orange
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07:31 PM
eatoninside Member
Posts: 719 From: Tremonton, UT Registered: Aug 2003
First off, thanks for setting up this thread, + for you! I've been looking at this kit for sometime. I have a couple questions for ya.
was your engine basically stock when you started this project and roughly how old is your engine...mileage wise?
If I were you, I'd look at getting some bigger injectors and an ignition system upgrade as well.
thanks for the write-up Dave
1) My engine is a brand new 3.4L motor for a 93-95 F-Body. I only had 3k miles on the engine before I put this turbo on. I have gasket matched the heads to the lower intake, and I have the West Coast Fiero WCF 61 camshaft. Other than that, I have no mods.
2) I put in 19 lb injectors when I did the swap to a 3.4. I have a MSD Blaster 2 coil that was already on the car when I bought it.
I'm thinking maybe I need some better plug wires. I have the ones you get from the Fiero Store and I read on the forums that they are really crappy and have high resistance.
I also forgot to mention I had to notch out the decklid in order for it to close. The turbo was up too high.
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07:42 PM
Doug85GT Member
Posts: 9838 From: Sacramento CA USA Registered: May 2003
It seems to be running rich or something. At WOT my A/F gauge reads quite rich, is this normal?
I got a TON of smoke out of it this morning when I started it up. It almost smelled like oil. The propshaft on the turbo impeller had quite a bit of play in it on both the exhaust and intake ends. One of our mechanics said this is a bad thing.
Yes, shaft play is a very bad thing for a turbo. It means the bearing is going out which will make the shaft eat away at the seals. When that happens enough, your turbo starts spitting oil out of it. If it continues, then the blades will contact the housing. Then the turbo is toast. You can't even rebuild a turbo when it goes that far.
Running rich at WOT is bad but it isn't nearly as bad is running lean. You want it slightly on the rich side but you don't want to just dump fuel into the cylinders.
That turbo looks like a T25. That is a very common turbo. If it is bad, then I know where you can get a brand new one for $200. Let me know if you are interrested and I'll give you the email.
What computer are u using, did u put a esc module?
As far as the oil, check your oil return line, if its kinked, or not flowing downhill to the pan, the presure will back up in the turbo, and smoke out the exhuast.
What computer are u using, did u put a esc module?
As far as the oil, check your oil return line, if its kinked, or not flowing downhill to the pan, the presure will back up in the turbo, and smoke out the exhuast.
The computer is stock 88. By ESC module I assume you mean knock sensor and retard?? No, I don't have one of those. I am running a custom chip which came with the turbo kit.
The oil return line seems to be alright. I checked the smell of exhaust again, and it wasn't oil, it smells very rich. It hasn't blown any smoke since this morning either. I pulled one of the plugs and sure enough, it was blacker than black. Our head mechanic remarked it was running "richer than hell."
As far as the play in the turbo is concerned, I don't think I will buy a new one, if I just bought the kit I expect a good turbo. If it really is bad then I SHOULDN'T have to pay for it!!!
Basically, it isn't running very good at all. Well, it idles fine and is smooth, but it just has no power and bogs down. I can only give it maybe a little over 1/4 throttle before it bogs down REALLY bad. I am having to shift at no more than 3200 RPM. Even so, it surpisingly still has more go than it did before I put the turbo on it. I don't know what is wrong, but I would most certainly appreciate any help on why I don't have any power and can't give it any throttle.
Jncomutt, thanks for posting the link to the other buildup. Now I know where those brackets go that I couldn't figure out!
[This message has been edited by eatoninside (edited 04-03-2004).]
You need the ESC to work right with the knock sensor (in an 85 computer, not sure about other years). Also, I'm not sure how the parameters are set up in the 88 computer compared to the 85. Most turbo chips I've heard about are set up to run in the 85 computer. Anyone else around you have a turbo fiero that you can swap out the entire computer/chip with yours? I might have a spare chip you could borrow, but like mentioned, its for an 85 and is looking for the ESC module for the knock sensor.
EDIT.. I just noticed u have 19lbs injectors. When u ordered the kit, did u let dennis know you're using a 3.4 block and the larger injectors? If the chip is programmed a hair on the rich side using the stock 3.4 injectors, it could be running alot rich with the 19s.. Just something else to consider.
As far as the turbo, even my turbo brand new with no miles (and the other in the store) had a slight movement to it, and when u spin the shaft you hear a very light grazing sound as it sound like they gently brush the opening. This is normal for my IHI turbo, as long as it spins free and is not excessive, so I was told.
[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 04-03-2004).]
My engine is ugly as $hit. I wasn't even going to turbo this motor, but I wanted to work out the kinks, and damage this one before my other one if problems should arise. I'm building a low compression 3.4L out of a 2000impala block with fiero heads. The intake plumbing is hacked right now, as I'm awaiting to install the intercooler and put the BOV back on (fitting is getting welded to the other pipe). I put my kit together on a VERY tight budget, which I'll leave out so other don't think they should jump into this. I will say I didn't reach a grand. So yes heres my ghetto turbo setup, first time seen on the forum, lol. You can see the braided feed oil line, the return wraps around to the pan, the coolent feed comes from unneath the turbo, and the coolent return comes straight up along the trunk wall. Exhaust exits to the right via 3" pipe and under the cradle at the hump. The air filter and the boost controller aren't mounted in this pic. I don't need the boost controller Yet as my wastegate is set to 8psi and the filter was in the way of the intercooler measuring.. I guess the thing to keep in mind is Function over Form. Or its not shiny chome but goes like hell, or something, lol.
[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 04-04-2004).]
Jncomutt, thanks for posting the link to the other buildup. Now I know where those brackets go that I couldn't figure out!
Hmmm...I see in your kit you got 2 sets of brackets but you only need one T-bracket to mount the crossover to the block and the other bracket is for wrapping the heat shield around the turbocharger. You must of gotten and extra set by mistake.
if you are smelling oil and you got a lot of smoke (blue?) and you have reason to believe your turbo bearings are shot, then your internal seals would also go pretty quickly...... and there is the (turbo's) oil's escape route - into the intake and/or exhaust side or maybe both. Just a possibility. Not a great thought but sure a lot more preferable than having your engine need a rebuild!!!!
EDIT.. I just noticed u have 19lbs injectors. When u ordered the kit, did u let dennis know you're using a 3.4 block and the larger injectors? If the chip is programmed a hair on the rich side using the stock 3.4 injectors, it could be running alot rich with the 19s.. Just something else to consider.
Good call Jncomutt! The stock injectors are only 15lbs and an over compensating chip programmed for 15lb injectors used with 19lb would easily cause the richness problem. Curious though as to why it got to this point in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong but i am assuming that initially Dennis didnt bother to ask what your setup was before sending the kit? As far as the downpipe being too long, I think there are shorter ones available from Dennis and KFG if the kit was properly prepared for you particular year /model. Also, I was suprised that you got almost non-existant instructions with Dennis' kit, I had the same problem with KFG's.Did you inquire about any of this with Dennis yet? It's not my intention to dump on Dennis in any way, they guy has a great reputation here. I'm just a little perplexed as to why you're having all these problems with this kit. Loose bearings, having to notch the decklid, poor instructions, and fuel problems, incorrect length downpipe, and missing odds and ends to make the kit complete...geez
Lordboost, you're onto somewith witht he down pipe. He is runnning an 88, which I know had a different factory y pipe, and header (into cat) pipe. I know the crossover pipe was different, as well as the coolent tubes. I think this was due inpart to the cradle design. Perhaps this is where the kit is faulted, it doesn't take into consideration the 88 model year??? Dennis?
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10:47 AM
David DeVoe Member
Posts: 1358 From: Grand Blanc, MI US Registered: Jul 2001
all I've gotta say is...when everything is set and done with your car...I'm stealing it!!! I've gotta see the #s that motor is gonna put out when everything is said and done (HP/Tq/ 1/4 mile etc) That things gonna be so awesome! TURBO SWISH!!!!! ^_^
------------------ Fiero: Get in, sit down, shut up, hold on!!
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01:46 PM
PFF
System Bot
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7405 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
Yes, I do have the 19 lb injectors. Dennis verified this with me several times, and the box the chip came in said "for 19 lb injectors" so the chip should be tuned for the right injectors. He also asked which year, motor, and transmission. He even called right before he sent it just to make sure he got it all right.
As far as the bad smoking goes, it only has done it after the car has sat all night and I first start it up in the morning. When I get it up to temp and have it running a while it quits. It was quite embarrasing this morning though as I was driving through town with my car blowing smoke like crazy
Dennis contacted me this morning by email. He said he's been following the thread here and that he'll do anything to make sure we get my car running PERFECTLY. He told me the cause of my smoking problem was the oil return line. You can't have it running horizontally at any point or pressure will be building up causing oil to seep through the seals in the turbo. I checked my oil line, and it was actually running UPHILL! I re routed it, so that should take care of that.
I took the advice of others here on the forum and gapped my plugs to .35. Those 2-4-6 cylinders were a joy Anyway, I took it out for another spin and it did seem to run better. It didn't bog as much when I gave it the gas. Don't get me wrong though, it still bogs and chugs with more than a little throttle. Another thing I noticed when I was changing my plugs that has never happened before. My MSD Blaster 2 coil was bubbling and oil (I assume it was oil, aren't those things oil filled?) was running down the side. Perhaps my coil got fried. I'll definately be getting a new one of those. The thing looked pretty ancient anyway.
Thanks to everyone who has replied. You guys are great!!
I haven't actually done any business with Dennis but (maybe that makes my comment even MORE worthwhile) I have traded emails with him a number of times and he simply seems like the "concerned and caring" type...... that is my impression. I am sure he will do right by you. re: BLASTER coil - why don't you be extra careful handling that; that "oil" might be some nasty stuff....... I really doubt it, but it MIGHT be...... so being careful is free, so why not? Carcinogenic at the very least. Just be careful...... and let everyone know what happens when you swap it; to see if that is the problem?!?!?? GREAT thread and you did it all quickly too. Super info; thanks!
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06:37 PM
watts Member
Posts: 3256 From: Coaldale, AB, Canada Registered: Aug 2001
I'm going to bet that your potentially dying coil (bubbling oil?! That just can't be good! ) is partially the culprit of your missing, chuggling, etc. It just doesn't have the poop to fire the plugs anymore!
Do yourself a favour... replace the coil, and pick up a Mallory 685 box (or whichever one floats your boat).
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10:25 PM
Apr 4th, 2004
eatoninside Member
Posts: 719 From: Tremonton, UT Registered: Aug 2003
I went to Autozone today and saw Jesse James I picked up a new MSD Blaster 2 coil and some MSD 8.5 mm Super conductor wires. They claim to have less than 50 ohms resistance per foot of wire, so I figured they'd get the job done. Man, they were pricey too...$90!! So I cut them to the proper length and installed them. NOTHING. There was no change from my old coil and wires to my new ones. The only thing that has made the slightest bit of difference was re-gapping the spark plugs to .35. The next thing I'm going to do is to check the timing. It may not be fully advanced to 10 degrees. I had to take the distributor out last week to replace the seal (it was blowing oil all over). I just marked where it was with a magic marker and didn't re-time it so there is a slight possibility it may be retarded too much.
Another thing I was going to look into was replacing the spark plugs with something that runs a little bit hotter. Anyone know what kind of plugs to use?? Right now I'm using the stock plugs.
This whole bogging down and no power is just boggleing me! I just don't know what else to do...I just keep thinking it HAS to be something to do with my ignition. I'm going nuts! Oh, and another thing, when I pulled one of my plugs yesterday, I remarked how black it was. When I pulled them today they were looking good, just like they should.
My dad was awfully concerned with the idle and the A/F gauge. The A/F gauge is constantly changing from lean to rich. The idle changes with the gauge. The idle speed goes up and down, up and down, lean to rich, lean to rich. I thought this was a fairly normal thing. Who is right here? Me or my dad?
I will suggest that before you do anything, make sure the timing on the car is as recomended, otherwise that can affect the response a lot.
The A/F gauge will bounce back and forth as you drive, when you are in WOT then it should go to rich and when you are in idle it will still go back and forth but not as fast as when you are driving it.
Once you have the car running properly, I am sure it will put a smile on you.
85s got it, the O2 readings flip back and forth lean to rich. O2 volts at wot are safe around .800 Do you have access to a laptop with a serial port??? If so, download winaldl, build/buy yourself a cable and take a look at what the comptuer is doing. As far as the idle, do u have a vac leak anywhere? Has it thrown a code yet?
btw, How many lbs of boost are you running?
[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 04-04-2004).]
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03:21 AM
BV MotorSports Member
Posts: 4821 From: Oak Hill, WV Registered: May 2001
Do you have access to a scan tool? I think it may be your TPS or MAP sensor. Another thing that will make your car run like that is a bad ECM coolant sensor.
------------------ '02 Subaru WRX 14.61@91.87mph bone stock '95 R33 Nissan Skyline GT-R Vspec NISMO stage 1 400bhp '88 Fiero Formula 5-speed, sunroof, YELLOW! **under restoration** '87 Fiero GT 4.9/4T60e w/3.33 final drive, ZEX nitrous 65hp shot, 88 cradle w/ 325# coil overs, Poly everything, Upgraded sway bars, KYB's, 16X7 M11's, 11.25 "Zettner" front brakes, Complete MSD ignition w/ 6AL box, Custom 2.5" Flowmaster exhaust, Grand Sport Corvette paint, Carbon fiber interior trim, '98 T/A CD w/ ETR, Reverse Indiglo guages, Pillar mounted AutoMeter O2, Hella H4 conversion. Follow its built up here: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/027460.html Sadly... SOLD.
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05:56 AM
YellowArtero Member
Posts: 256 From: Belle River, Ontario Canada Registered: Mar 2004
I'm reading your description of your problems and smiling ... not because I'm laughing at you but ... I've been there. I have had many of the same issues and am slowly working through them. First of all, the smoke on start up can be attributed to oil. Apparently, there is no 'seal' to stop oil from going into the exhaust. It relies on clearance and therefore too much oil pressure or oil that cannot drain from the turbo will force its way through to the exhaust. A turbo needs only a small but consistant flow of oil. It seems that some turbos have a special orafice that allows the correct amount to lubricate the bearings. Oil going into the exhaust will quickly ruin an oxygen sensor and then the computer tries to compensate ... much smoke! It's also my belief that the stock computer sets basic parameters in open loop mode. When the car is warm enough to go into closed loop, the reprogrammed chip takes on its duties and runs the engine. You probably notice that once the car warms up, it does not smoke. The reprogramed chip is doing its job. Also, if your O2 sensor has been contaminated by oil, it would affect your air/fuel mixture and give you a rough running engine.
I had to move the exhaust to get mine out.. Glad to see you're on your way to owning your self a turbosaurus! You'll love it! Hopefully you put the oil return high enough to clear the axle and not in the way of any of the pan bolts.. hehe.
Well, it idles fine and is smooth, but it just has no power and bogs down. I can only give it maybe a little over 1/4 throttle before it bogs down REALLY bad. I am having to shift at no more than 3200 RPM. Even so, it surpisingly still has more go than it did before I put the turbo on it. I don't know what is wrong, but I would most certainly appreciate any help on why I don't have any power and can't give it any throttle.
I've gotta see the #s that motor is gonna put out when everything is said and done (HP/Tq/ 1/4 mile etc) That things gonna be so awesome! TURBO SWISH!!!!! ^_^
Anyway, I took it out for another spin and it did seem to run better. It didn't bog as much when I gave it the gas. Don't get me wrong though, it still bogs and chugs with more than a little throttle. Another thing I noticed when I was changing my plugs that has never happened before. My MSD Blaster 2 coil was bubbling and oil (I assume it was oil, aren't those things oil filled?) was running down the side. Perhaps my coil got fried. I'll definately be getting a new one of those. The thing looked pretty ancient anyway.
