it's just not worth it anymore. I wrote up a reply earlier today about the northstar vs the 3.8SC , I tired to be unbias as possible.. I ended up deleting it. this forum has so many morons on it who are experts on everything and nothing.... As long as it's what they have under the hood , it's the best. Im not saying the northstar is the best, but it has a lot more potential than 99.9% of the people realize..
I need to go finish working on my N*'s fuel system... This is like trying to push a truck with a rope.
JM
seems that you totally missed the point. By the time that one totals up all the money spent for a "N" swap.. One STILL won't have that engine running to its ultimate potential. But the 3800 sc swap is already there.. and when people start adding turbo's to the 3800, the tuning issues are also ALL READY DONE.. That is a FACT. One can also look back on the 89 3.8 turbo Firebird for another example. FACTORY STOCK, out of the box it was into the high 13's (in a 3500 lb car). An awesome time for an F Body back in 1989).
seems that you totally missed the point. By the time that one totals up all the money spent for a "N" swap.. One STILL won't have that engine running to its ultimate potential. But the 3800 sc swap is already there.. and when people start adding turbo's to the 3800, the tuning issues are also ALL READY DONE.. That is a FACT. One can also look back on the 89 3.8 turbo Firebird for another example. FACTORY STOCK, out of the box it was into the high 13's (in a 3500 lb car). An awesome time for an F Body back in 1989).
Im going to attempt to be civil.
The reason that most northstar setups are not running at full potential is that their creators have decided to take on the challenge of using the stock ECM and modifying it.
I have opted to go with the holley commander system. For $1350 it comes pre programmed and plugs in directly to all of the northstars sensors. it's a pure plug and play setup. With the exception of the gauges everything works. I will have to wire up gauges and the AC system , but thats it.
The engine will not only run at it's factory potential of 300hp , But according to Alan @ CHRFAB it will be cracking out 320hp , due to the fact that GM tunes these engine very mildly from the factory.
All I did was call up CHRFAB , told him I have his 288 cams and I would like a 7500rpm redline. he pre programs it all. All i have to do is plug it in , and turn the key. With the cams and minor headwork (and I do mean minor) the engine will be making a healthy 400hp.
This thread is just turning into a total Cluster F*ck. Some people take any and every chance to attack archie. The self proclaimed "Intelligent" person who started the thread is bias as hell and talks out his ass. the people with the really fast 3.8SC's ...don't seem to give a rats ass about this thread. FieroX , Lildevil , Skitime , NOS3800 , Phil. they know they have fast cars , they built them for themselves , not for pissing matches with forum members.
I built the northstar for my own reasons , not to impress a bunch of neanderthals who think they have a clue about what performance is , let alone what being a car enthuasist is ... Just biased knuckle draggers that can only appreciate what they have under the hood. The same people who talk just to listen to themselves..
As my dad used to say to me when i was a teenager...""Your the greatest...just ask you"
JM
------------------ Jonathan McCreery 86 GT Northstar 86 SE autocrosser in progress SAVE THE SHAUN!!!
The reason that most northstar setups are not running at full potential is that their creators have decided to take on the challenge of using the stock ECM and modifying it.
I have opted to go with the holley commander system. For $1350 it comes pre programmed and plugs in directly to all of the northstars sensors. it's a pure plug and play setup. With the exception of the gauges everything works. I will have to wire up gauges and the AC system , but thats it.
The engine will not only run at it's factory potential of 300hp , But according to Alan @ CHRFAB it will be cracking out 320hp , due to the fact that GM tunes these engine very mildly from the factory.
All I did was call up CHRFAB , told him I have his 288 cams and I would like a 7500rpm redline. he pre programs it all. All i have to do is plug it in , and turn the key. With the cams and minor headwork (and I do mean minor) the engine will be making a healthy 400hp.
This thread is just turning into a total Cluster F*ck. Some people take any and every chance to attack archie. The self proclaimed "Intelligent" person who started the thread is bias as hell and talks out his ass. the people with the really fast 3.8SC's ...don't seem to give a rats ass about this thread. FieroX , Lildevil , Skitime , NOS3800 , Phil. they know they have fast cars , they built them for themselves , not for pissing matches with forum members.
I built the northstar for my own reasons , not to impress a bunch of neanderthals who think they have a clue about what performance is , let alone what being a car enthuasist is ... Just biased knuckle draggers that can only appreciate what they have under the hood. The same people who talk just to listen to themselves..
As my dad used to say to me when i was a teenager...""Your the greatest...just ask you"
JM
exactly the point that was being made.. you have to go outide the box to get the true potential of the N swap. you are doing it right.. I can't wait to see your results vs an LS1 swap that is also done right,, then total up the costs of each of these great swaps.. the fact is that you have every right to do your swap exactly how you want to do it. this IS a discussion form in the "Technical Discussion & Questions" section. I know from what has been posted that the 3800sc auto is an "easy" smog legal swap.. the northstar is a hard swap. Last time I looked the "holley commander system. For $1350.." was an off road only item.. Like it or not, some of use have to factor that issue into the discussion of potential swaps. so if I am wrong about this point please tell me.. ( the last thing I want to hear is that smog rules do not apply to you or your swap, as that puts your car in a whole nother field.) If you choose to drive an off road only car on the street that is your choice.. but it disqualifies you automatically from the norm ie: Street legal The bottom line is only going to come out by people posting facts and questions and discussing them.. not by name calling. If you have the best mousetrap I will gladly give you the credit due, but if you have some issues that merit discussion then lets be civil, and discuss it.
Wow....It took a thread like this to bring a lurker out of the shadows. In the words of a truly sad, pathetic being "can't we all just get along?" The Fiero Community at large is the most ingenius, dedicated group of people I have ever seen. I first rode in a Fiero when I was in grade school and my best friends aunt bought a black 2M4 and I thought speakers in the headrests were the coolest things ever. I rediscovered the little 2 seater last year after I had a debate with a friend about a Factory 5 Cobra replica. I started searching the net on kit cars and somehow ended up here. I dont own a Fiero, yet (a house with a garage comes first) but thanks to the forum I have gained a lot of knowledge and a great respect for the people who hang here. I mean lets face it we are pretty much a grass roots organization there arent too many Fiero parts vendors with the R&D budget of say Edelbrock here. I would say that most of the innovations on these cars is because of a love of the car not just a way to get rich quick......(sorry about the long-winded intro) the way I see it we have a diverse community, who has different goals about what they want from their cars. I mean some people want a fire breathing lopey idle boulevard bruiser and some people want a canyon carving low-slung high revving sports car....some people love the thrill of the build, doing something that isn't exactly mainstream. Some people just want to own and drive, It doesnt make them any less of an enthusast or their experiences less valuable. Where would we be If nobody tried to adapt other engines to this car? Innovation is what makes this place special. People who love their cars and the work that gets them there. Why would you bash somebody who bought their conversion? Everybody has their skills and their budgets and there is no "Ultimate Upgrade" or "Best Engine" I would love to have a 5spd Northstar powered GT but I dont have the fabricating skills required or the budget to have someone do it. I want to build it myself, thats just me, but we are all agreed that there is something special about this little beast that makes it special. There are more options available to a Fiero builder than any other car I can think of (at least as far as engine and tranny goes) but make whether it's 4,6, or 8, TDC or SBC, 3800 or N* there is only one "ultimate Fiero" the one thats right for you.......so keep pushing the envelope, keep the info flowing because I'm sure there are more people just like me who check out the forum for ideas and ways to learn a thing or two without being active (heck i've been checking this place out for about a year and this is the first time I've had something to contribute)
see ya
-T
P.S. make mine an 88 Formula SeriesII auto
IP: Logged
01:37 PM
cptsnoopy Member
Posts: 2587 From: phoenix, AZ, USA Registered: Jul 2003
This is my post from a similar thread in the chat forum.
This letter by Scott Perkins I lifted this from the Fiero Factory (I'm sure Ed Parks won't mind) express exactly why I chose the 4.9.
by: Scott Perkins
Since getting the 4.9 V8 conversion from The Fiero Factory installed in my Fiero, I put 30,000 miles on my car. I drove my car from Cincinnati to Los Angeles and back, during the hot summner in August. I drove it through the hottest part of the desert, up long steep hills at high speed with the A/C turned on, and the temperature stayed below 200 degrees except for one five minute period when it hovered around 220 (The red line is at 240). Most of the time the gauge stayed right on 180 degrees. The engine bay even stays cooler now than it did with the original V6 engine. I drove through the mountains in Colorado at over 10,000 ft altitude. The engine had no trouble adapting to all these conditions, and ran well on the 85 octane gas they sell up in the mountains.
It was near Vail at high altitude up in the mountains that I learned my car now has more acceleration than an Audi A6 2.7 Twin Turbo($43,000). As far as the installation of the engine goes, there was only one very minor issue in the first 30,000 miles. I found a transmission line with a rubber hose clamp which had some visible fluid clinging around the clamp. It was a very slow leak, an ooze rather than a drip. The problem turned out to be a defective hose clamp which had been tightened but would not tighten up far enough. I replaced this clamp, and have had no other issues.
I have had perfect reliability so far, and the car is trouble free to use as a daily driver. No failures to start, no acting up, and nothing has come loose. I haven't even had to tighten a belt. The gauges work perfectly too. All I do is change the oil and put gas in it, then drive some more. To have this level of performance combined with such low maintenance, great gas mileage and full-coverage insurance for only $700 per year, is about as close you can get to automotive bliss in a daily driver. The Fiero Factory conversion has held up very well. Great job guys!
I use my Fiero as a daily driver, and like many Fiero owners, I wanted more horsepower than the stock engine provided. I considered many ways to boost the power, and came up with a few of my own priorities. Of course, other people will have their own priorities, but just for fun, here are mine: 1. I'm not quite rich enough to justify spending over $10,000 for an engine. I had to keep the expense down to earth. 2. I like the handling provided by the stock suspension on the 88 GT, and I wanted my car to handle the same with the new engine. 3. The more high-RPM power the better, but it couldn't substitute for low-RPM power. After all, I use the car as a daily driver. 4. My old 2.8 V6 engine was already worn out, so even if I bought a turbocharger, I would still have to buy or rebuild an engine to go with it. 5. I didn't want bad mileage. 6. It had to pass the smog check in Ohio.
One way to achieve priority #1 was to pick an engine and transmission combo which weighed no more than the stock engine and transmission. This saved me $900 by avoiding the expense of new coilover struts and stiffer springs. This weight saving approach also met priority #2, because I wouldn't have to modify the suspension. My money and weight limits eliminated the cast-iron small-block V8(5.7L) and Northstar V8(4.6L) as engine options. Both were too heavy, and in addition, one of these conversions was too pricey; guess which. As for my priority #3, the Caddy 4.9 V8 makes around 150HP at only 3000 RPM. In stark comparision, did you know the famous 240HP S2000 engine produces only 50HP at 3000 RPM, and only 25HP at 1500 RPM? This is less power at these RPMs than the original Fiero 4-cylinder. Needless to say, I didn't want a tiny engine.
BTW, the S2000 is an interesting comparison because it weighs about the same as a Fiero GT. 3000 RPM Horsepower GM 4.9 V8 150HP--GM 2.8 V6-75HP--GM 2.5 L4-61HP--S2000 VTEC 50HP 1500 RPM Horsepower GM 4.9 V8-75HP--GM 2.8 V6-38HP--GM 2.5 L4-31HP--S2000 VTEC 25HP.
The 4.9 V8 would meet priority #3, yet so would the very smooth 3.4 V6 with a turbocharger added. But since I needed a new engine anyway, the cost of the 3.4 V6 with turbo was going to be close or maybe more than the 4.9 V8 conversion. Priority #5 steered me away from the Supercharged 3800, because word on the street was the 4.9 gets better mileage. And the 4.9 has more low-RPM power, because superchargers just don't do much at low RPMs. There were a couple of other nitpicky issues with the supercharged 3800, which caused me to favor the 4.9. The alternator gets in the way of the Fiero trunk-lid lift spring, requiring the substitution of one of those leaky gas struts like you find on a hatchback. And the 3800 is an old-fashioned 90 degree V6 which is not as well balanced as the more modern 60 degree V6 (GM 2.8, 3.1, 3.4L engines). The 3800 requires a balance shaft to be smooth.
These are small issues, and honestly the 3800 might have been my choice if there was no 4.9 V8 conversion available. The only thing the supercharged 3800 had in its favor over the 4.9 was about 25 more horsepower at high-RPM compared to the stock 4.9 V8. I chose in favor of the low-RPM power and smoothness of the 4.9 V8, knowing it's always possible to add tuner parts to the V8 to get the 10% extra high-RPM power, or maybe much more.
Though I wasn't sure at the time, I can now report that the 4.9 V8 actually smog tests much better (65% less smog) than the original 2.8 engine , and it gets better highway mileage too at 28MPG. The old engine never turned more than 27MPG on the highway with the 5-speed stick shift. An additional highly important factor in my decision was the quality of the 4.9 V8 conversion available from the Fiero Factory. This has to be one of the nicest installations I have ever seen for an engine conversion. It looks just like it would look if GM had built the Fiero with this engine from the factory. I have had many people look it over and say they never new GM put V8s in Fieros. The wonderful clean wiring job is a must have item. And this conversion provides for using the factory computer, so there is no problem with emmisions control. Also the factory computer is needed to operate the electronically controlled 4-speed Cadillac automatic transmission. If you want this excellent transmission which maximizes the fuel economy of the 4.9 V8, You will need a conversion which includes the factory Cadillac computer. Oh, and there is one more little reason I had for choosing the 4.9 V8 conversion for my Fiero; it makes it fast!
The following are the quotes from Mastermind.
Hummm...my main reasons I should add. Dead on dependable daily driver for the city that can smoke 95% of most cars that will pull up next to it.
Better gas mileage than the 2.8 auto that it replaces.
Makes its power naturally without add ons i.e. turbos, superchargers. Eliminating them gives me less things to worry about going wrong. Did I mention this swap is relatively inexpensive?
I'm 4.9 obsessed please HELP.
IP: Logged
03:02 PM
Mastermind Member
Posts: 1396 From: Chicago, 4.9 IL Registered: Apr 2002
They don't like you because you act like a jerk. You come out looking for a flame war and then cry when you get one. You come on here being "Mr. Know it all" when you have no clue who you are even talking to.
What do you think you are acting like anytime anyone else has a different opinion than you? I think that you just can't stand the fact that not everyone on this BBS is a kissass and treats you like a god. I never claimed I was a know-it-all. I just posted my credentials (unlike you) so people could understand the basis of my arguements and what knowledge I used to come to that opinion. I have no clue who I am talking to? I beg to differ. However many customers that I am sure you have supporting you, I have bumped into a few that aren't particularly happy with you or your work. Have I ever knocked you directly about this? I think not. IMHO, I would compare you with the 60 year old mechanic that is so set in his ways and refuses to acknowledge technology or change that he refuses to accept the inevitable.
quote
Wow, 10 years hopping up cars..... haha..... I (and several others you've insulted) were building performance cars when you were still $hitting green.
As usual, you resort to personal attacks on me and others. It shows how big (or more accurately, how small) you are.
quote
Yeah you bring a "fresh perspective to the table" like "The point is that in this day and age performance is measured by 1/4 mile times"..... right, we are so jealous of your superior intelligence.
Hmm interesting. People don't go buy a Ford Lightning because it handles good or stops good. They buy it because it has an impressive 1/4 mile time. Pick up just about any car magazine and one of the most important values by which they still rate todays cars is by 1/4 mile performance. I am just stating the obvious. And no, I think it is just you that is jealous, again, you do nothing but bash me -- I see no information nor facts in your replys to me, just personal attacks.
quote
Well, just like everybody else that tried to participate in this thread, I'll just walk out of the room shaking my head.
Archie
Yes, and I am sure you do the same thing every time you go to the track and get beat by somebody who has a lesser engine than you. BTW, Lingenfelter got 1200HP out of a turbocharged 2.2L GM Ecotec. What have you done lately?
IP: Logged
03:54 PM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5922 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
Again, I am not 100% bias against V8's or people who seem to swear by them. Like I said before, I own an 87 GTA that has a 5.7L V8 engine in it and for a 3600 lb slug, I think the 13.1 it ran in the 1/4 is impressive for what little is done to it.
The problem with some people on here is they are stuck on V8's of one flavor or another and refuse to look at anything else...and when they do, they turn their noses up at them and declare them inferior. Trust me, they are not inferior, you are just in denial.
I am for ANY engine swap into a Fiero. I just get sick of some of the V8 crowd that dances around proclaiming that they are superior to everyone else. Some of you think that just because you have a V8, that makes your car automatically better or faster than any lesser engine equipped Fiero out there. I have been witness to this same battle over the Grand Nationals and Turbo Regals. Most of the V8 "people" think the V6 is inferior, and when they get beat by that inferior V6 they think that it took a lot of money for that V6 to beat them. Well I am here to set the record straight. It is CHEAPER to make a boosted 3.8L go really fast than ANY SBC, LT1, or LS1...period. I have been there, done that. This is the primary arguement of this thread. Will a V8 ultimately go faster than a V6? Probably if you have deep enough pockets. But like I said, this thread is about a balance between performance, reliability, and cost not just one or two of those. If you have all the money in the world, no doubt you can make ANY engine in a Fiero fast, but none cheaper than the tried and true 3.8L (or 3800) V6. Don't agree? Then produce the facts. Archie, all of the personal attacks in the world do not amount to one shred of evidence. That is all I am asking for. If you think I am wrong, then prove it. It is just that simple.
IP: Logged
04:21 PM
PFF
System Bot
Sacred Member
Posts: 180 From: Midlothian, VA Registered: Mar 2002
Just about every post in this thread is bias. I would suggest anyone trying to decide on a swap not take any advice given in this thread. They all have their advantages and disadvantages, everyone must choose what is best for them. For me it was the 3.4L TDC because it appeared to be cheaper than the N*, kept weight down, was an easier install than many others, and had the best potential in my opinion given my options. That was my decision and hopefully I will feel the sameone when I resume work and finish(I'm in school right now).
IP: Logged
05:02 PM
Mastermind Member
Posts: 1396 From: Chicago, 4.9 IL Registered: Apr 2002
Wow. This thread is like the mokey cage at the zoo. Everyone throwing poo at each other, while complaining that they're getting poo thrown at them.
I would actually like an ubiased, non-flammable, discussion on the various merits of each swap. I don't see that happening here, though.
For those who've tried to add insight without flames, thank you.
Couldn't agree with you more on your description of this thread.
I'll only add that I've got one of the most early SBC V8 Conversions on the Forum (it's not even an Archie Kit and there is absolutely no dis-respect meant by this), it was done in 1993, and the engine hasn't been taken apart for repairs, or removed from the engine bay. All the miles on this car have been extremely hard miles which says quite a bit about the SBC. It may be a little more expensive to put in, but if your talking Hi Horsepower I don't think the any other V8 or V6 is going to give you the same durability if it is matched to the performance of the SBC.
Just my opinion, that's my contribution, and I'm out of here.
I like to see Fieros done up right. I like to talk to Fiero fanaticks who want to help each other. I even like to debate others on what is best for a given purpose, but I dont like to argue. I dont know it all eather,Will has put me in check more than once. But the fact is there are as many different ways to do swaps as there are people that do swaps. We all change something or do something different to our owne swap that makes it fit our needs or budget. And we all pick a swap because of our owne needs and wants I wanted a N* but had an 89 Corvette L98 to put in my 87GT but changed my mind and sold the L98 for a Short*. At that time I could not find a complete N* drivetrain for under $2000. So I got everything I wanted with the Short* for $600. It aint done yet but "for me" this is the best swap. It has to pass smog in CA. so I will use all of the stock Olds drive train and make it work. Can it be done? I think it can. Why do it? Twin cam V6 that is lighter than the 2.8, more power (215HP), better gas mileage, 6700RPM, 100,000 tune ups and it just LOOK'S COOL in the car. How much will it cost. I dont know, it is not done yet, so far it is about $1000 total. Reliability? The one in my 2002 Olds runs perfect with over 50,000 on it so far. In a Fiero?, I cant say because I have never talked to anyone that has done it. Performance? I hope to get 200% more power than the stock 2.8 with minor mods. If I dont get 260HP out of it, then I am sure that the 235HP from unrestricted intake and exaust will be fine for a smog legal daily driver. I dont think it is the best swap. I dont even think I can say what is the "best swap". But I can say that the car's owner should be the Judge and Jurry, not me. Do it your way and help others on there swaps if you can, but it aint helping anyone when we try to make others do it our way, or belittle them cause they did something different. I like the talk about the pro's, con's, advantages and disadvantges of the Fiero swaps. But the flames SUCK. Just my $.02
IP: Logged
04:13 AM
breakneck88 Member
Posts: 265 From: Chambersburg P.A. Registered: Feb 2003
Well!!! I have roughly less than $2500 in my swap and that includes a fresh 350 040. over and all the accesories.Archies kit, Remanned tranny and poly bushings everywhere. My motor is atleast 350 h.p. not that I need that much.(tranny) I could easily have built 400 hp for nearly the same ammount but I tried to stay away from torque. I should have done a 327 or a version of the dz 302. I love sbc's, but originally wanted the series II. I will build one someday. But I think I will put that one in a convertible sunfire!!!!!! for my wife! I dont understand the flaming going on here. THEY ARE FRIGGIN, MOTORS!!!! ITS STEEL IRON AND ALUMINUM!!!!! YOU GUYS SHOULD JUST GET TO THE POINT! ITS NOT ABOUT THE MOTORS! YOU JUST DONT LIKE ONEANOTHER!!
------------------ ,86 GT poly suspension. 357 c.i. sbc 4 bolt 010 block, steel crank, x rods, arp, Fed Mog. 9.25:1 Hypers, 882's,XE 256 with 1.6 rollers. Weiand excellerator w/ divider plate. Carter 750. Headers And all the goodies. 375 h.p.Soon to hit the street!
IP: Logged
09:12 AM
mcaanda Member
Posts: 3652 From: Grand Junction Colorado Registered: Mar 2003
And I think that you hit it on the head right there...
Sad isnt it?
Actually I think it has to do with everyone wanting to believe that their swap is the best, because if it isn't then they chose the wrong swap. No one like to admit when they are wrong and everyone wants to be right. -James
Actually I think it has to do with everyone wanting to believe that their swap is the best, because if it isn't then they chose the wrong swap. No one like to admit when they are wrong and everyone wants to be right. -James
exactly - but there is no absolute best swap - it depends entirely on the driver and what they like a car to feel like - and just how fast they want it to be in the straight or the turn, or how much of a wow factor they want - or if they have something against v8's --- there are just too many differences between the swaps and how they drive to label any of them as the best - its entirely subjective - so drive what you enjoy - there really isn't a need to argue about it
IP: Logged
01:25 PM
Mastermind Member
Posts: 1396 From: Chicago, 4.9 IL Registered: Apr 2002
You're right! The best swap is the one the BEST SUITS YOU. That's why I believe the 4.9 is the best for me. Will smoke 95% of whatever pulls up next to you light to light. Can stand on it (with Caddy auto trans) without fear of damaging things is dead on reliable, gets better gas mileage than the 2.8 and is relatively inexpensive considering the huge inprovement in performance.
IP: Logged
01:39 PM
Freshj Member
Posts: 1250 From: Holly, Michigan Registered: Nov 2001
Just to throw out some real world numbers, I ran a 13.85@98mph with a 1.89 60ft time. My motor has a 3.4 pulley, WCF headers and exhaust, and a HOT air intake. It was 96* that day, and I had NO wheel spin. I also have a shift kit. I think with more tuning I'll get into the low 13's but w/o a smaller pulley (i.e. 3.25) I don't think it will break 12's. To run anything smaller I'd need rockers, cam, or intercooler. Just to throw out some pricing, I've spent 7.5K on my swap so far...
here we go again! there will be v6 guys and v8 guys. i will stick w/ my v6. and who ever said u can't run 12s in a turbo regal w/ out suspension mods need to do his or her homework. I did it.
IP: Logged
10:38 PM
6-Fitz Member
Posts: 24 From: ft wayne,in,u.s. Registered: Dec 2002
Archie I don't know u real well but like someone else said, u need to attack w/ facts not personal slander. Cause it does sound like u r slightly fearful of someone else talkin engine swaps for money. Just some friendly advice.
IP: Logged
11:16 PM
6-Fitz Member
Posts: 24 From: ft wayne,in,u.s. Registered: Dec 2002
also humor us quarter mile freaks. I want to see everyones times. V6 and V8 alike so I can form aan opinion of the engine options. I already have a pretty fast Turbo T so v8 guys and gals, you'll have to work a little harder for me to see your point. let the 1/4 mile times begin!
IP: Logged
11:22 PM
KissMySSFiero Member
Posts: 5559 From: Tarpon Springs, FL USA Registered: Nov 2000
Show me a STOCK L67 or 4.9 that runs mid 13's. The best I've heard is 13.7 from a 4.9, and all the L67 times I've seen were laid down by engines that have at least a pulley, which isn't stock, BTW.
My best is 13.3 through a soda straw exhaust with a 275 chip running a 300 engine.
What are your credentials, that you can evaluate all these different swaps with such keen perception?
Where did all this animosity toward V8's come from?
What about 13.4@106 for a stock 3.4TDC fiero? Well it does have an 11 pound flywheel. So I guess it isnt stock.
IP: Logged
12:01 AM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5922 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
I just dont understand why you guys think everyone else should run out to the drag strip because you like it.
Didn't say you (or anyone else) had to do anything. I just would like to see some Fiero BBS BS benchracing backed up at the track. If you choose not to do so, then there is really no point in posting to this thread if you can't back up your opinions with facts.
Like I said before, what you do with your car is your buisness. Some like V8s, some like V6's and some like 4 bangers. My intention with this thread was to supply the PFF community with infomation I have learned as well as what I have experienced over the years in an attempt to help others make an informed decision about what would be (in my opinion) the best bang for the buck when we are weighing performance and reliability. I can't help it if a few people on here feel as tho their livelyhood is threatened by someone else's ideas. Surely, someone else will come up with a better engine swap than the 3800IISC someday that will exceed everything it does, but until that day comes, I am sticking to my guns on this topic.
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 07-15-2003).]
IP: Logged
12:11 AM
6-Fitz Member
Posts: 24 From: ft wayne,in,u.s. Registered: Dec 2002
seems to be an old battle cry among the v8 owners. "There's more to performace than straight line" While that may be true, I'm still asking about the 1 segment of performance i care about. HOW FAST R THESE FIEROS WHETHER 6 OR 8. If you don't know then be kind and don't waste the bandwidth w/ excuses.
IP: Logged
12:16 AM
PFF
System Bot
6-Fitz Member
Posts: 24 From: ft wayne,in,u.s. Registered: Dec 2002
I am new to the forum and am highly interested in a car and a swap. This thread caught my eye due to the title but hasn't lived up to it. Maybe a new thread needs to be started WITHOUT THE BASHING and sticking to the facts. Not race slips. A swap starts with a car, stock motor, and tranny. Now to actually weigh the swaps properly with Pros and Cons you need more info that "I think or Know this is best" Chart this out for this simple inquirer to understand. At this point I don't remember what was said in the first post and don't care after wading through all the B.S.
Simple way of weighing it out. LEAVE IT TO THE INQUIRER! Supply an information rich topic and leave the "My car is faster than yours" out of it.
Add Price range to each item if able to. Engine (left in stock form) Possible Trannys Kit needed for install ECU or modification needed Electrical needed for install Electrical madification needed Fuel system modification needed Exhaust Modification needed Intake Modification needed Ignition Modification needed Suspension Modification needed Welding Needed Cutting on Body needed Any other Custom parts REQUIRED to install Smog laws legal and how easy to pass Added weight over stock 4 cyl. HP / TQ of engine Possible fuel milage
Now for a couple opinion based questions. And I remind you please don't make this into a flame war. If you have something to contribute to a setup then say " This can also be done as well" Instead of "do you homework" or "so and so is wrong"
Difficulty of install Hours projected on install Reliability of components in install Difficulty of routine Maintenance (plugs oil etc..) Availability of performance upgrades (Note that this is the last part)
Then do a small write up on what to expect while doing this install. Note that cleanliness is on the installer and shouldn't be worried about. Overall look of engine compartment is also on the owner/installer. Some people don't even show off the look just the functionability. And please remember that You can do this in so many hours and Archie can in so many hours, but I may take an extra 20+ hours just because.
It's summertime it's blazing hot outside we come home from work and release agression on the net. You can chose to release it in a constructive way or a destructive way. Just keep in mind that you may be turning a prospective member away when you do this. Thanks for reading and let's get a thread like this together since I and many other people would like to use this VALUABLE info to get our own projects started. Stuart
[This message has been edited by stuartlowery (edited 07-15-2003).]
[This message has been edited by stuartlowery (edited 07-15-2003).]
IP: Logged
01:44 AM
breakneck88 Member
Posts: 265 From: Chambersburg P.A. Registered: Feb 2003
Stuart Lowery, Good suggestions! So far my sbc w/ archies kit has been a peice of cake for me. I think it would be fairly easy for a beginner, as long as they double check the instruction video. I hate wiring!! and I love carbs so I went that route. Honestly, I have had a harder time with installing my poly front suspension then I have had so far w/ my sbc. As for the $ side of things I can give rough prices. Remanned tranny $500 for a th125. My motor has just about $2000 in it, but it could have been done for alot less. I dont stick to one project long so I wanted a real strong motor that I can put in another car, should I ever decide to do that. I have roughly $600 in my suspension, This isnt swap related. Its and upgrade I felt it would be a good time to knock it out during my swap. So in all reality, I feel there isnt a cost effective swap when it comes down to the n*, 3800scII, sbc swaps. They are all pricey. I am not a fan of the n*, yet I havent had a chance to drive one yet.that would probably change my mind. I am not personally involved with any motor. I would like a 3800scII someday. I have v8ed Datsuns, minivans and upgraded4 rearwheel drive 6 bangers and 305s. But as for the v8 sbc swap, I couldnt see it being any easier. And I wish I had more time to finish it, I will be taking it to the strip after my 500 mile break in is done and I go to synthetic..AND TO BE HONEST, SO FAR IT WAS HARDER TO DROP THAT DAMN CRADLE AND REMOVE THE HARNESS THAN ALL THE OTHER WORK I HAVE PERFORMED SO FAR!!!!!!! that should be a good comparison.
------------------ ,86 GT poly suspension. 357 c.i. sbc 4 bolt 010 block, steel crank, x rods, arp, Fed Mog. 9.25:1 Hypers, 882's,XE 256 with 1.6 rollers. Weiand excellerator w/ divider plate. Carter 750. Headers And all the goodies. 375 h.p.Soon to hit the street!
IP: Logged
07:01 AM
WikedV6 Member
Posts: 271 From: Elburn, IL USA Registered: Jul 2002
I agree with Darth Fiero 100%, It is also my opinion that 3800SC are the most sensible swap. For most of us, the reason we swap out a motor is to go faster. Most people with a V8 Fiero that I have known (including myself) are too scared to launch or drive hard because the fear of breakage. No matter how many horsepower & how much torque you make with your V8 Fiero, there will always be a trans issue. This is why most of the V8 Fiero's are in the 13's and high 12's if that. I know few those claims to be quicker. More and more I see that 3800SC guys post their impressive 1/4-mile times with less bolt-ons and maintain the same derivability while the V8 guys talk about how they should be faster with this and that but no proof. For those of whom that states the 1/4-mile performance is BS, they need to take their head out of their butt. No matter where you go, if you have a sporty looking car, the first few questions that most intelligent people ask are; how fast is it , what does it do in a 1/4 mile & trap speed.1/4 mile is a basic measurement of how fast your car is in comparison with others. When you drive around on the street or light to light run with other cars, you need to hammer that thing not worrying about oh! I might break something or yell out to the guy in the other car that my car is made for road course so I will race you around turns. That is not reality. I only go to the track once or twice to see what my car does for the sake of measurement, most of the time I am on the street not looking for races but if someone want to play I will put them back in there place without any hesitation. By the way, as far as expense V8 vs V6, I have twice as much money in my V8 twin turbo vs my little 10sec V6 turbo. I know they are not in a Fieros but if you want to do things right no matter what project you take on, it will cost you.
Just my $.02
Prasad
------------------ 1987SE 2.8 w/5speed(waiting for a 3.8 Buick GN setup trasplant) 1984SE 5 Speed W/SBC V8 1987 Buick GN(10.70@124MPH) 1987 Trans Am SBC 355cid Twin Turbo(no track times yet) 1992 GMC Typhoon(13.20@ 99mph) Other cars; JaguarXJ6 & Mercedes AMG 500SEC
[This message has been edited by WikedV6 (edited 07-15-2003).]
IP: Logged
04:18 PM
85frankenstein Member
Posts: 687 From: Kenosha, WI 53142 Registered: Nov 2001
Bottom line is the "Most Sensible" swap is what the owner of the vehicle decides would better suit his/her vehicle based on many factors including availability of the motor, desired end characteristics, level of knowledge of mechanics, and budget.
There is no right or wrong swap period, regardless of what anyone says. If people REALLY want to be helpful, scrap the opinions and just simply list the motor, the upgrades done to it, the overall characteristics, and maybe copies of timeslips, dyno numbers, and other applicable "Hard Data" and let the owners make the judgement calls for themselves. If they want more info, they can always PM or email for the sales fodder.
IP: Logged
11:05 PM
Jul 16th, 2003
Whuffo Member
Posts: 3000 From: San Jose, CA Registered: Jul 2003
This isn't a straightforward comparison to make; what's best for one person may be less than good for another. Let's start with a basic 'fact' about horsepower: the formula to determine horsepower is (Torque(ft-lbs) X RPM) / 5252 = HP.
So an engine producing 100 ft-lbs of torque at 8,000 RPM has the same horsepower output as one producing 200 ft-lbs of torque at 4,000 RPM. They'll both get you down the quarter mile in about the same amount of time - but they'll handle quite differently when you drive them in traffic.
Low-revving high-torque motors like a SBC or the Caddy 4.9 give you that kick-in-the-pants launch but the power falls off at the higher RPMs. High-revving (D)OHC motors wind up much higher and really fly if you keep the RPMs up - but that low-end "grunt" isn't there.
I'm in the planning stages of my Fiero buildup right now and I haven't made the final decision on what powerplant to put in yet. But I'm almost certain that it'll be a V8. I don't plan to go to the dragstrip; I'll be driving on city streets and freeways where effortless and strong acceleration will be much more valuable than being able to reach 100 MPH in 12 seconds. That, and I *like* the rumble of a V8.
You may want something different; I'll admit that if I was building something to run at the drag strip I'd take a close look at the 3800SC...
IP: Logged
07:11 PM
NINJAX Member
Posts: 109 From: Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA Registered: May 2003
AutoXing I would DEFINATELY use the 3.4 TDC. It's got remarkably quick acceleration with an Isuzu 5 speed (mainly due to the factory compression ratio as well as the gear ratio of the Isuzu), spins up quick as well as decel, and can easily push HP through the flats if there are any. Add all that to a motor that can handle high RPMs for 1st and 2nd gear power turns and you will get excellent response so long as you have a good suspension to drive it.
My V8 Fiero runs mid 12's, Chief's V8 Fiero has run low 11's and Lou's Fiero runs low 10's all day long WITHOUT using the nitrous. We took our cars to Moroso in West Palm to measure our ET's and one thing I can tell you is that there is no substitute for cubic inches. The 3800 sc is a great engine for every day driving and it has good performance, however you can not compare it to a high performance V8. There is a 3800 sc Fiero in Miami that has an inter cooler and if I can get him to sign on to this board he will tell you exactly that. Spend your money any way you like but you can't beat 40 years of research and the parts that are available to build a high performance small block chevy.
