It has come to my attention that once again there is a lot of misinformation (most likely spun by people with bias opinions) floating around out there in the PFF world, so I would like to shed some insight if I may.
Before I begin, I would like to share with you all my experiences and education in the high performance automotive world. I hold a college associates degree in high performance automotive which encompasses head porting, engine machining, flow bench and dyno work in addition to all aspects of automotive repair. I also have training and experience when it comes to drivelines, transmissions, and suspension systems. With that being said, lets move on.
I have been hopping up cars for over 10 years now. I believe my advantage in this field is that I am a little younger than most and bring a fresh perspective to the table. I also love to question and argue because my brain is a sponge and I enjoy soaking up as much information as possible; so I am not dead set in my ways and my opinions have been known to change from time to time.
Like I was saying, I started out in the performance world at an early age working with the small block chevy. The best thing about this engine is the cheap cost and availability of parts. However, in my 10+ years of modding SBC's, there is a performance glass ceiling that does exist; and this holds true for ANY naturally asperated engine no matter how many valves it has. Drivability plays a big part in my performance recipe so trailer queens need not respond to this post. With that being said, in my time spent modding the SBC, I have learned the hard way that it costs a lot more to get a 3500 lb car into the 12's with a SBC when you compare it to the 3.8L Turbo Buick (aka Grand National, T-Type, etc). A lesson that I wish I had learned long ago; but my misfortune can be your fortune if you choose to listen.
If you like to drive your car on the street; IE: idle at stop lights, not overheat, not shake the fillings out of your teeth and not make you go deaf; then you are either going to have to compromise on your performance or use forced induction.
Whatever your taste is, turbocharging is my weapon of choice. However, there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding that exists here and elsewhere that has people purplexed on what they can and can't do. First of all, you can't just slap a turbo or SC on any engine and turn the boost up. The rule of thumb for factory non-boosted engines is generally 4-6 lbs of boost MAX. A lot of it is pistons and rods, but most importantly, it is block and bottom end design that ultimately limit the amount of boost an engine can take. Because of this, the SBC is UNSUITED for heavy boost duty unless you have splayed main caps installed. Moreover, even with that upgrade, the basic design of the SBC will simply not allow for much power to be produced without compromising durability. If you want a more durable engine, you are going to need an all-out race block: bowtie, dart, etc. I have not heard how strong the stock block is for the N* exactly but I have heard that it can't take much boost. If you want a strong block, you need a deep-skirted block, which brings us to:
The 3800 Series II L67. The Series II, like the series I and 3.8L turbo engines, is a deep skirted engine which makes the bottom end very strong. The series II block has cross-bolted powderedmetal main caps which are superior to it's ancestors. Believe me when I tell you this is the way to go if you want to make serious power (or run a whole lotta boost, or both).
For a little history, the 3.8L intercooled turbo regal/grand nationals/TTAs ran low 14's, high 13's stock...not bad for their time. However, the nice thing about a turbo car (that not many know) is that you can put in some race gas (108 or 116 octane), turn up the boost and timing (usually means put in a different chip) and bang-- you have a car that is capable of running 12s. It is that simple. It has been done many times by friends of mine as well as many in the turbo buick community. Just to give you an idea of how versitle these engines/cars are, I was at the Buick Nationals in Bowling Green, Kentucky 2 years ago where they had a bracket class that only allowed for external bolt-ons; some examples being stock appearing turbos, streched intercoolers, exhaust and induction mods. There was no restriction on fuel or chips other than no N2O was permitted. In fact, one fellow claimed to even have an unopened factory engine--bone stock. There was only 2 cars in that class and they both ran deep 10 sec 1/4 mile passes. Stock block, crank, pistions, cam, heads, etc. Can you say that for a SBC or Northstar? If you think that is BS ask around on turbobuick.com or other turbo regal websites -- it is not BS. What does this have to do with an L67 you ask? A lot, actually. It is basically the same engine with the exception being the L67 has better valvetrain, heads, block, bottom end, better oiling system; basically an updated turbo regal 3.8 engine. There are already many GTPs and Bonnevilles with the supercharged 3800 series II L67 running deep 11 sec 1/4 mile times so 10s and faster is just a matter of time.
When we are talking about performance, with the L67 you are just a pulley change and a couple of gallons of hot gas away from big performance gains. That is it. You can't do that with a N/A SBC or N*.
So what have we learned so far? The SBC and N*, using their factory blocks, cannot take a lot of boost. They are just not designed for it. Sure you can build them up with good parts, but we are talking about thousands of dollars just to make sure they won't explode under high boost conditions. Stock 3.8L turbo blocks are known to be able to take up to 25 lbs of boost reliabily. Some have been known to take 30. I don't know if the L67 has been pushed that far but from what I and others understand if its design, it is definately capable.
So what does this mean for the Fiero? Simply put, a SBC can be made to perform in a fiero but it is to going to cost you a whole lot more than a SC pulley and some hot gas. Not to mention the fact that MOST kits that are available for a SBC conversion require you to cut on the body and use a transmission adapter plate. At the end of the day you are left with a non-stock (in most cases a cobbled) engine bay that is unsightly and leaves the engine difficult to work on. Don't get me wrong, I have seen a couple of LS1 and LT1 swaps that looked really good, but it took a hell of a lot of work and money to get them that way.
The N* is a totally different animal. The N* support group would have you believe that the standard $2500 performance upgrade for the N* is comparibly priced to the L67 upgrade. This is simply untrue. While the N* may ultimately make more HP than the L67, torque is what wins races. Top end HP is great for the autobahn but it means crap in the 1/4 mile. From what I have seen of the N* upgrade, you are going to need to spin that engine higher and higher to take FULL ADVANTAGE of that package which means one thing: It means that your automatic trans is going to give you fits at those higher RPMs and you are really going to need a manual trans. The problem is GM does not make a good FWD manual trans yet. The 5-speed getrag is ok, but documentation says it will only support up to 210-240tq reliably and that claim is obvious to me when a stock Fiero 2.8L engine is capable of throwing diff parts thru the casing. The weak point of the getrag is the case so upgrades are virtually impossible. Of course, you could always get a super 6-speed FWD aftermarket manual trans that is capable of holding 1000 hp. Those only run about $15,000 or so. Again, we want a reliable car that we can actually use full throttle in and not be afraid of bangin' some gears with, and one we don't have to take out a 2nd mortgage on just to build it.
From what I have heard the L67 does not like the 1st gear of the getrag and by it's high torque nature, it is better suited to an automatic anyway. There are pleanty of transmission shops that can build an auto trans capable of running 11 sec 1/4 mile passes in a fiero, reliably.
So what have we learned...
The N* is no doubt capable of making impressive HP numbers, but it is going to cost you a lot of loot and you will have to spin the hell out of it to make those "impressive" HP numbers. All the HP in the world is not going to beat an engine with superior torque in a drag race. That much has been proven. I have yet to see a N* powered Fiero run 11s in the 1/4. If someone can supply one, then I stand corrected.
The SBC is a solid foundation on which to build but it too has its faults. It requires adapters and many modifications and special parts in order to work properly in a fiero which makes it one of the most expensive swaps, initial cost wise. This leaves you with less money to buy GOOD expensive heads and exhaust parts that you will need to make the power required to push that Fiero into the 12s and faster. IMHO, the SBC is a decent choice for performance but it is not the best, nor the most cost effective. Besides, it is one of the worst engine swaps when it comes to fuel economy.
In my honest opinion,the L67 offers the best bang for the buck. You can buy whole powertrains for less than $2000 these days and stock they are capable of running low 13s in a fiero. Slap on a pulley and custom computer programming and you are running 12s. Add a cam and some hot gas and who knows just how fast you could go. It is just that simple. Been there, done that.
For me i would run a SBC. It has been proven over and over 350hp /450tq is easily and affordably attainable thats with a carb. Hot Rod / Car craft does this sort of thing on a monthly basis. I used to think GN's were something special until i actually raced one. my god whatta dog. I have built enough SBC and the odd BBC to know that i would bet my house on the SBC vs 3800sc. the 350 SBC is 5.7L it by design totally ot torques the 3800.
This is one thing i dont know though. dont you need to adapt the 3800 and the wiring and the ecu to the fiero? its not a direct bolt in is it.
I have spent enough time with Troys 383 SBC on nitrous to see the kind of room you have to deal with and the kind of power it produces all be it not superstreetable.
Anyays im rambling here so to paraphrase.
The perfect performance fiero would be a streetable light wieght SBC. auto or stick.
good post
------------------ Email: adriantalliss@email.com 1984 Indy Fiero 4spd 3.4L -Est 220hp @ 5000rpm / 230 tq @4500rpm, centerforce II clutch, 390cfm 4bbl holley, crane h272 cam, Edelbrock Torker II intake, 9 to 1 comp, minor head porting, true 2" mandrel dual Supertrapp exhaust, factory 4.10 4 spd, 17x7 white konigs w/ 205/40r17 yokohamas Avid h4s, all interior leather changed to white, custom built adj aluminum rear wing, aftermarket gauges, corvette MBC upgrade, Held coilover kit, 2 inch drop front and back.
IP: Logged
03:47 AM
Kris Duck Member
Posts: 193 From: Coquitlam, BC, Canada Registered: Dec 2002
Okay, this isn't meant to flame, just my understanding of these ideas. You've obviously got more modding experience than I do. I spend more of my time reading and researching than wrenching, so I may be quite wrong.
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero: ... in my 10+ years of modding SBC's, there is a performance glass ceiling that does exist; and this holds true for ANY naturally asperated engine no matter how many valves it has.
This magical ceiling doesn't affect boosted engines?
quote
... I have learned the hard way that it costs a lot more to get a 3500 lb car into the 12's with a SBC when you compare it to the 3.8L Turbo Buick (aka Grand National, T-Type, etc).
I don't get this. Does this take into account the price of the car? GN's demand a premium. I could spend the same amount on a Caprice with a 383, and get similar numbers.
quote
...Because of this, the SBC is UNSUITED for heavy boost duty unless you have splayed main caps installed. Moreover, even with that upgrade, the basic design of the SBC will simply not allow for much power to be produced without compromising durability.
You'll greatly compromise durability of a factory-turbo car if you increase the boost too much. GN's aren't immune to blowing up. One guy got into the low 11's with 28 PSI of boost, then proceeded to blow something. Admittedly, that's a stock bottom end, but I've got a customer at work with an LT1 Camaro running 11's reliably, using a stock bottom end too.
quote
... I have not heard how strong the stock block is for the N* exactly but I have heard that it can't take much boost.
Chrfab has gotten well over 600hp from a n N*. I've heard they've got something around 1000hp from a heavily ($$$) modified N*.
quote
The 3800 Series II L67. The Series II, like the series I and 3.8L turbo engines, is a deep skirted engine which makes the bottom end very strong.
Most, if not all factory turbos are setup the same way. The Supra 2JZ and Nissan's RB26DETT can both take over 450 hp on the stock bottom end. An LS1, with heads, cam, intake and headers makes 405 at the wheels, that's about 465 at the crank, without force-feeding it. BOLT-ON a dry nitrous kit and you're at 550 hp easily. That's spending about the same as the intercooler upgrade and pulley for the 3800.
quote
However, the nice thing about a turbo car (that not many know) is that you can put in some race gas (108 or 116 octane), turn up the boost and timing (usually means put in a different chip) and bang-- you have a car that is capable of running 12s. It is that simple.
Almost right. There's other things you have to do to a GN to get 12's, fuel mod, air intake, exhaust, chassis...
quote
...There was only 2 cars in that class and they both ran deep 10 sec 1/4 mile passes. Stock block, crank, pistions, cam, heads, etc. Can you say that for a SBC or Northstar?
Again, since there's no factory nitrous setups, there's nothing else you can 'crank' to increase an engine's efficiency. If you want to include any bolt-ons, an LS1 Corvette with a stock engine, running a 'bolt-on' 125hp dry nitrous setup should be running about 510 hp. As far as the N* is concerned, it wasn't designed as a drag race engine, but I've seen air intake and exhaust mods bring 320 hp at the wheels, showing there's room to move.
quote
When we are talking about performance, with the L67 you are just a pulley change and a couple of gallons of hot gas away from big performance gains. That is it. You can't do that with a N/A SBC or N*.
Would you call 30hp 'big' gains? Not bad for a relatively simple mod, but Camaro owners have been able to pull that much from free mods like removing intake restrictions etc. Of course there are smaller pulleys that add more power, but the knock retard and belt slippage counter that (intercooler is expensive).
quote
So what have we learned so far? The SBC and N*, using their factory blocks, cannot take a lot of boost. They are just not designed for it.
They make their power without boost. What difference does it make how and engine makes power? You can use higher compression, or N2O etc... not all race cars use boost.
quote
The N* is a totally different animal. The N* support group would have you believe that the standard $2500 performance upgrade for the N* is comparibly priced to the L67 upgrade. This is simply untrue. While the N* may ultimately make more HP than the L67, torque is what wins races.
Waitasec... Ever seen a race between an S2000 and a Fiero V6, both stock. The Fiero is rated at 170 torque, but the Honda is only rated at 153... As long as the Honda driver knows how to drive, he'll beat the Fiero every time.
<snip transaxle dialog> The Caddy trans was made to handle the higher RPM's and the higher horsepower. It's a fairly strong transaxle, if that exists.
quote
The N* is no doubt capable of making impressive HP numbers, but it is going to cost you a lot of loot and you will have to spin the hell out of it to make those "impressive" HP numbers. All the HP in the world is not going to beat an engine with superior torque in a drag race. That much has been proven.
Well, $800 in cams, springs and retainers (and a bit of porting) brings 375 horse at somewhere around 6500 rpms. From the factory, it's already making 250 lb-ft at 2500 rpms, and peaks at 4400 lb-ft. Quite respectable.
quote
I have yet to see a N* powered Fiero run 11s in the 1/4. If someone can supply one, then I stand corrected.
Well, from what I can tell, the N* builders out there aren't looking for the highest 1/4 mile numbers, but I'm sure with 400hp+ available, it's not exactly far-fetched.
quote
(SBC)requires adapters and many modifications and special parts in order to work properly in a fiero which makes it one of the most expensive swaps, initial cost wise.
Check the post regarding money spent on 3800 swaps. They're not exactly cheap either...
quote
(3800) less than $2000 these days and stock they are capable of running low 13s in a fiero. Slap on a pulley and custom computer programming and you are running 12s. Add a cam and some hot gas and who knows just how fast you could go. It is just that simple. Been there, done that.
Okay, regarding cost, SBC parts are cheap. I price out performance parts at work all day. I get people asking me for performance stuff for all sorts of cars. I've sold the parts to build 11 second SBC's and parts for 13 second 5.0L Mustangs, and turbo civics. SBC's beat all the others for pricing.
Having said all this, I really like the 3800. I had planned on doing this swap until my brother-in-law beat me to it. Now I'm planning on eventually doing the N* swap. My brother-in-law and I also worked on his 420hp GTO (used to be mine, long story), so I'm not extremely biased towards any of these choices.
Anyway, in the end, it's up to each person how much power they want, and how they want to get there.
Hopefully this thread won't turn into another yelling match between the SBC and 3800 people. We've all been through those enough times..
Well, I'm off to bed, it's 4:15, past my bedtime. I'll probably be up at 9AM anyway...
Cheers, Kris
------------------ Little, Yellow, Different New sig pic with 17's coming soon! (edit to fix a missed opening quote bracket, it's late)
[This message has been edited by Kris Duck (edited 07-11-2003).]
Originally posted by Kris Duck: Anyway, in the end, it's up to each person how much power they want, and how they want to get there.
Hopefully this thread won't turn into another yelling match between the SBC and 3800 people. We've all been through those enough times..
This I deffinately agree with - these things get started by some curious person looking at their options - but the best thing they can do is ride in a few - some people want immediate bottom end grunt - others like to wind it out some love the sound of a blow off valve.. each person will like a different engine so why do some (and I am probably guilty of this from time to time) try to convince others to want what they want. They are all nice swaps and all bring the fiero into better competition with modern performance cars.
IP: Logged
10:10 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14307 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by Darth Fiero: I have not heard how strong the stock block is for the N* exactly but I have heard that it can't take much boost. If you want a strong block, you need a deep-skirted block, which brings us to:
Well, you've heard incorrectly. Since the Northstar wasn't turbo from the factory it's not suited to heavy boost without internal work. However, the Northstar bottom end is probably the strongest GM has ever built. It's MORE than capable of standing up to any amount of power you can hope to put down on the street. Deep skirt blocks and 6 bolt main caps (in fact main caps in general) are primitive compared to a block stuffer. You can buy a sand rail with a $2500 horsepower engine from CHRFab. Since no one makes aftermarket Northstar blocks, guess what he uses?
quote
Stock block, crank, pistions, cam, heads, etc. Can you say that for a SBC or Northstar?
Neither of those engine have ever been factory turbocharged. Apples to oranges. Well... there is one exception. In the pre-ZR1 days, you could order a Callaway turbo Vette from your local Chevy dealer. Stats on a factory turbo SBC: over 400 HP and 600 ftlbs of torque through a TPI intake, and I'm sure you know how easy it is to get more HP out of that intake.
quote
There are already many GTPs and Bonnevilles with the supercharged 3800 series II L67 running deep 11 sec 1/4 mile times so 10s and faster is just a matter of time.
Actually, 10's has already been done. Intense put their race-prepped short block together with their ported heads, turbo cam grind and a big turbo in a stripped out GTP chassis. However, it was NOT cheap.
quote
When we are talking about performance, with the L67 you are just a pulley change and a couple of gallons of hot gas away from big performance gains. That is it. You can't do that with a N/A SBC or N*.
Big performance gains =/= big performance. I think you need to look at the cost of aftermarket parts for the L67. A pulley, a chip and some race gas will NOT get you into the 11's. You might crack 12's in an L67 Fiero with just a pulley, chip and gas, but you won't get into the 11's. People running in the 11's have spent about as much on their engines as I've spent on my whole car. I have a friend with a GTP, and he's over $5K into it and is in the mid 8's in the 1/8th mile. He has ported heads, valvetrain mods, pulley, PCM, TOG headers, full exhaust, clutch pack LSD, shift kit, and I'm sure a bunch of other stuff that I'm not remembering. But he does NOT have an intercooler, which will be well over $1000, and is a requirement for getting big power out of an L67; not does he have a built transmission ($3000), which is a requirement for getting big L67 power to the ground, reliably.
quote
So what have we learned so far? The SBC and N*, using their factory blocks, cannot take a lot of boost. They are just not designed for it.
Like I said above, the Northstar block can take a HELL of a lot of boost, it's just that a stock short block aseembly isn't suited to it, not being turboed from the factory.
quote
Sure you can build them up with good parts, but we are talking about thousands of dollars just to make sure they won't explode under high boost conditions. Stock 3.8L turbo blocks are known to be able to take up to 25 lbs of boost reliabily. Some have been known to take 30. I don't know if the L67 has been pushed that far but from what I and others understand if its design, it is definately capable.
Do your homework. For $4000 you can buy a race prepped short block from Intense. They claim it's good for about 600 crank HP in 1/4 mile bursts. They used this setup in the aforementioned 10 sec GTP.
quote
The N* is a totally different animal. The N* support group would have you believe that the standard $2500 performance upgrade for the N* is comparibly priced to the L67 upgrade. This is simply untrue.
No, this is quite true. Go do your homework. Big power on an L67 requires an intercooler. The cheapest out there right now is over $1000. Getting that power to the ground requires a built transmission, which is another $3000. Those two alone pay for the stand alone computer and heads/cams necessary to get big power from a Nortstar. The other mods to the L67, like heads, cam, blower porting, etc. balance out the extra cost and work of installing a Northstar.
quote
While the N* may ultimately make more HP than the L67, torque is what wins races. Top end HP is great for the autobahn but it means crap in the 1/4 mile. From what I have seen of the N* upgrade, you are going to need to spin that engine higher and higher to take FULL ADVANTAGE of that package which means one thing:
A heads/cams Northstar is going to have very close to 100% VE, and put out over 375 ftlbs of torque. That's not a gutless wonder by any stretch of the imagination. Once again, you're not going to gain 100 ftlbs of torque on an L67 with pulley, chip and gas.
quote
It means that your automatic trans is going to give you fits at those higher RPMs and you are really going to need a manual trans.
Who uses an automatic, especially the 4T80E? That thing's just 300 lbs of high drivetrain loss.
quote
The problem is GM does not make a good FWD manual trans yet. The 5-speed getrag is ok, but documentation says it will only support up to 210-240tq reliably and that claim is obvious to me when a stock Fiero 2.8L engine is capable of throwing diff parts thru the casing. The weak point of the getrag is the case so upgrades are virtually impossible.
This is actually funny. You and Dennis ought to get together. I imagine you'll have a grand ole time Getrag bashing. I've been thrashing a Getrag behind my Northstar daily for over a year and a half now. Archie conversions have accumulated hundreds of thousands of miles on Getrags behind SBC's. Regardless of whether the odd Getrag breaks behind a 2.8, I think the transmissions in general have established a stellar reliability record at high power levels, considering their relatively humble origins. Another thing is that the Getrag has less than 10% drivetrain loss. You get more power to the ground through a Getrag than through a 4T65E.
quote
From what I have heard the L67 does not like the 1st gear of the getrag and by it's high torque nature, it is better suited to an automatic anyway. There are pleanty of transmission shops that can build an auto trans capable of running 11 sec 1/4 mile passes in a fiero, reliably.
However, a heads/cams Northstar brings about 2500 more RPM to the table than an L67, and likes short gearing just fine. Going back to HP vs torque, have you EVER heard of gearing? I don't know 4T65E ratios right off the top of my head, so I won't do a comparison to N*/Getrag, but here's another example: Ferrari 360: ~3100 lbs, ~400 HP, ~275 ftlbs.; Corvette Z06: ~3100 lbs, ~400 HP, ~400 ftlbs. Why is the Z06 only marginally faster in a straight line than the Ferrari? If torque were all that mattered, the Corvette should leave the Ferrari at the line and never look back, since it has 125 ftlb advantage on the Ferrari. Don't try to BS anything about Ferrari technology. The answer is a simple as RPM, torque, and gearing.
At moderate power levels, the 3800 indeed makes excellent bang for the buck, just like the Caddy 4.9
However, at extreme power levels, I don't see a distinct cost advantage to any of the three engines you mentioned.
As for your comments about SBC engine compartments being cobbled together, I'll let Archie address that one, if he takes you seriously enough.
I like the Northstar a lot. People who have done L67 swaps like the L67 a lot. SBC guys like SBC's a lot. Everyone has an opinion, and no one is going to convince everyone else that one way of going fast is the best. The least you could do before trying to convince everyone is to get your facts straight before you spout your own misinformation as gospel.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-11-2003).]
IP: Logged
10:19 AM
fierojeepguy Member
Posts: 14 From: rockport texas(south texas by the coast) Registered: Jul 2003
This thread got nasty really quickly. I'll take some of the blame for that.
Why does a Northstar swap have to be expensive? I picked up a 2001 DTS engine 2 weeks ago. It has less than 12k on it. The full longblock was $600. Where do you get the idea that they're expensive to purchase? If you think that maybe I just got a good deal, so be it...I have 3 late model Northstars sitting in my garage right now, this last one was the most expensive. As for the electronics, is $1200 too much to spend for an aftermarket ECM? How much is YOUR time worth? The swap isn't heavily documented. I know some people like hand holding and instructions, but what about those of us who aren't afraid of challenges? I have to give W.Capman, Will, Chris Moore, and the others who have done the swap a lot of credit. All of them have overcome the challenges of making this thing work, all of them chose slightly different routes. I have to give some of the 3800SC guys credit too. I'm not saying it's a bad engine, all I was saying is that it's not my style and there are better alternatives IN MY OPINION. I feel pushrod engines have lived a long and happy life and should be replaced with something better.
I think I'll have to take some pictures of a torn down Northstar to lay the durability question to rest.
IP: Logged
12:11 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14307 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
However, a heads/cams Northstar brings about 2500 more RPM to the table than an L67, and likes short gearing just fine. Going back to HP vs torque, have you EVER heard of gearing? I don't know 4T65E ratios right off the top of my head, so I won't do a comparison to N*/Getrag, but here's another example: Ferrari 360: ~3100 lbs, ~400 HP, ~275 ftlbs.; Corvette Z06: ~3100 lbs, ~400 HP, ~400 ftlbs. Why is the Z06 only marginally faster in a straight line than the Ferrari? If torque were all that mattered, the Corvette should leave the Ferrari at the line and never look back, since it has 125 ftlb advantage on the Ferrari. Don't try to BS anything about Ferrari technology. The answer is a simple as RPM, torque, and gearing.
At moderate power levels, the 3800 indeed makes excellent bang for the buck, just like the Caddy 4.9
However, at extreme power levels, I don't see a distinct cost advantage to any of the three engines you mentioned.
As for your comments about SBC engine compartments being cobbled together, I'll let Archie address that one, if he takes you seriously enough.
I like the Northstar a lot. People who have done L67 swaps like the L67 a lot. SBC guys like SBC's a lot. Everyone has an opinion, and no one is going to convince everyone else that one way of going fast is the best. The least you could do before trying to convince everyone is to get your facts straight before you spout your own misinformation as gospel.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-11-2003).]
Okay now install this N* monster into a Fiero and prove it. No one has, no one will and if they do it will not be without major transmission or clutch failure.
I agree totally with Will here. Anyone who argues that the L67 is superior to a N* in any form modded or stock for reliability is dead wrong. The N* is a much much better engine in every aspect. However, with current install know how (or lack of) the N* in a Fiero has performed miserably at the track for all of it's power.
Originally posted by bushroot: Why does a Northstar swap have to be expensive? I picked up a 2001 DTS engine 2 weeks ago. It has less than 12k on it. The full longblock was $600. Where do you get the idea that they're expensive to purchase?
It is leftover from when the northstar was rare in junkyards - but these days they are common - a lot more common than 3800sc at least in my area..
Originally posted by USFiero1: I agree totally with Will here. Anyone who argues that the L67 is superior to a N* in any form modded or stock for reliability is dead wrong. The N* is a much much better engine in every aspect. However, with current install know how (or lack of) the N* in a Fiero has performed miserably at the track for all of it's power.
I think this will change as it becomes a more common swap and more people take it to the track - but mid 13's for a stock swap in street trim before even getting it to run properly isn't bad.
It's bad when it's smaller, not so elite little brother the 4.9 is pulling these times totally stock also. There is a big problem with N* installs, and someone needs to find it. The stats behind the motor do not add up with the times posted even stock. A stock l67 also runs mid 13's when installed properly and it has considerably less power all around.
Maybe it comes down to: The N* is a great motor, but not for the 1/4 mile. Especially in stock form. It's an upper RPM band motor and to fully see the potential of the N* is to keep it wound out in the higher rpm's before shifting. There's no room for this on a 1/4 mile strip,the power needs to be there then, not in a second or two. Now with mods it would be a monster up and down. But clearly it fails to out perform motors of way less performance in the 1/4 mile.
I wouldn't say that.. I think th eonly thing we can say is that not enough is known about the northstar yet so a majority of its installs are lacking their full potential - and I believe it has to do with all the extra systems the caddy computer is looking at for detune the engine for traction etc. perhaps a caddy engine with a haltech computer would be a good route to go for dyno tuning - but the tuning then becomes some of the most expensive part
Very true, but then we get into a "mod" state and expense state. When comparing to other motors, that doesn't help the agrument out at all. Shove an after market DHP on a 3800sc and watch the gas mileage go up 3 mpg, 25-30 HP and Mach-1 governor take over. Not to mention extended shift points "if using an auto trans". Again another down side to the untraveled N*.
[This message has been edited by USFiero1 (edited 07-11-2003).]
IP: Logged
01:46 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14307 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
It's bad when it's smaller, not so elite little brother the 4.9 is pulling these times totally stock also. There is a big problem with N* installs, and someone needs to find it. The stats behind the motor do not add up with the times posted even stock. A stock l67 also runs mid 13's when installed properly and it has considerably less power all around.
Maybe it comes down to: The N* is a great motor, but not for the 1/4 mile. Especially in stock form. It's an upper RPM band motor and to fully see the potential of the N* is to keep it wound out in the higher rpm's before shifting. There's no room for this on a 1/4 mile strip,the power needs to be there then, not in a second or two. Now with mods it would be a monster up and down. But clearly it fails to out perform motors of way less performance in the 1/4 mile.
Show me a STOCK L67 or 4.9 that runs mid 13's. The best I've heard is 13.7 from a 4.9, and all the L67 times I've seen were laid down by engines that have at least a pulley, which isn't stock, BTW.
My best is 13.3 through a soda straw exhaust with a 275 chip running a 300 engine.
What are your credentials, that you can evaluate all these different swaps with such keen perception?
Where did all this animosity toward V8's come from?
IP: Logged
01:47 PM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5922 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
For me i would run a SBC. It has been proven over and over 350hp /450tq is easily and affordably attainable thats with a carb. Hot Rod / Car craft does this sort of thing on a monthly basis. I used to think GN's were something special until i actually raced one. my god whatta dog. I have built enough SBC and the odd BBC to know that i would bet my house on the SBC vs 3800sc. the 350 SBC is 5.7L it by design totally ot torques the 3800.
This is one thing i dont know though. dont you need to adapt the 3800 and the wiring and the ecu to the fiero? its not a direct bolt in is it.
I have spent enough time with Troys 383 SBC on nitrous to see the kind of room you have to deal with and the kind of power it produces all be it not superstreetable.
Anyays im rambling here so to paraphrase.
The perfect performance fiero would be a streetable light wieght SBC. auto or stick.
good post
I see your point and also agree that those numbers are easily attainable in any RWD configuration car. But when you are talking about stuffing a SBC into a Fiero, exhaust and induction is going to be a compomise unless you cut on the body. You are going to have a lot of fabrication or money in exhaust to allow that SBC to breathe good in a P-body.
As far as the 3800 not directly bolting in, it does bolt in more directly than a SBC. Yes wiring is probably the most difficult issue, but they don't need special water pumps, belt drive systems, an adapter plate for the trans, or the body cut to clear the engine.
I do understand where you are coming from with the performance standpoint. But I don't think you have raced too many Turbo Regals. There are a few slow ones, but there are far more slow SBC's out there that people think they are fast until they race a very slightly modded GN.
Show me a STOCK L67 or 4.9 that runs mid 13's. The best I've heard is 13.7 from a 4.9, and all the L67 times I've seen were laid down by engines that have at least a pulley, which isn't stock, BTW.
My best is 13.3 through a soda straw exhaust with a 275 chip running a 300 engine.
What are your credentials, that you can evaluate all these different swaps with such keen perception?
Where did all this animosity toward V8's come from?
Ed Parks at the Fiero factory. I'm quite certain he wouldn't lie about a 4.9 running mid 13's. Considering he runs a business and has a huge following and many customers with his 4.9 install kit's and "new" crate 4.9's he offered a few years back.
As for the L67 motors running mid 13's stock I can vouch for easily considering I owned a bone stocke 3800sc in my 86gt with an auto trans. It pulled 13.6's all day on pump gas no mods. Given, it was a brand new motor hard mounts and stiff struts to transfer the power to the ground. No performance mods on the car at the time.
Originally posted by Will: Where did all this animosity toward V8's come from?
usually tha comes from people who wish they had a v8, are trying to prove something, or are trying to justify to themselves the decision that they made.
I don't have any of the engines and have nothing against any of the options, I merely have my prefferences.
People just have to realize there is no "RIGHT" answer to this question - all the swaps have their merits and shortcomings and all drive a little differently it ultimately is a matter of personal prefferance.
And to answer your other question Will, I have no animosity towrds V8's in general.. Just when installed in a Fiero. I've yet to see a V8 being able to live to it full potential in a Fiero, besides CaliKids which has proven itself more than enough. I love V8's and I must say the great majority of them installed in Fiero's that I've ridden in, read about, heard about or seen at the track haven't done very well which is very dissappointing to me. So yes I guess I have a bad attitude towrds V8 Fiero's and I blame the owners for not addressing the traction/tranny issue.
IP: Logged
02:02 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14307 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Ed Parks at the Fiero factory. I'm quite certain he wouldn't lie about a 4.9 running mid 13's. Considering he runs a business and has a huge following and many customers with his 4.9 install kit's and "new" crate 4.9's he offered a few years back.
As for the L67 motors running mid 13's stock I can vouch for easily considering I owned a bone stocke 3800sc in my 86gt with an auto trans. It pulled 13.6's all day on pump gas no mods. Given, it was a brand new motor hard mounts and stiff struts to transfer the power to the ground. No performance mods on the car at the time.
13.6 & 13.7 stock =/= 13.3 stock but running badly
I think you were exaggerating a bit about how fast stock L67's and 4.9's are.
IP: Logged
02:05 PM
PFF
System Bot
GMGW3 Member
Posts: 471 From: West Allis, WI Registered: Dec 2001
...Not to mention the fact that MOST kits that are available for a SBC conversion require you to cut on the body and use a transmission adapter plate. At the end of the day you are left with a non-stock (in most cases a cobbled) engine bay that is unsightly and leaves the engine difficult to work on. Don't get me wrong, I have seen a couple of LS1 and LT1 swaps that looked really good, but it took a hell of a lot of work and money to get them that way.
Thats the biggest pile o' poop Ive read in awhile. I had my V8 installed at Archies, its a straight forward standard install, I did not have to pay any extra big $$ to have it "look pretty" and IMHO its probably just as easy if not easier to work on than the stock 2.8 ,,
Oh BTW nice install Sluppy!
IP: Logged
02:15 PM
breakneck88 Member
Posts: 265 From: Chambersburg P.A. Registered: Feb 2003
Anyone want to race???? for fun!!! Isnt that what its about anyway??? Get off the 'puter and go drive!!!!! Myself included!!!! In the end I want one of each!!!
IP: Logged
02:17 PM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5922 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
I think some of you guys are just missing the true point of this post. What I was trying to do was to carefully weigh performance, drivability, streetability, cost, and reliability. In my honest opinion, the 3800 II SC is the candidate that meets all of those credentials the best.
I have no doubt that someone could buildup a SBC to perform in a Fiero using NOS or big cubes to do it. But it is going to cost you and it is not going to be as streetible nor as efficient as an L67.
I also have no doubt that a N* is capable of making the power that most of you claim it can but all of that power does not seem to be finding its way to the ground in a Fiero on the dragstrip. As someone earlier said, perhaps there is a unfound problem with the N* swap that you guys have yet to find. When that day comes, as I am sure it will, then I will perhaps change my opinion about the N*. But until then, the track times speak for themselves.
The GETRAG debate is getting old and is an issue that will be argued until GM comes out with a better trans. The fact is some come apart at 250tq and some don't. That is just something I am not willing to gamble on in an engine swap. It costs $600 just in parts to rebuild a GETRAG whereas a rebuild kit for a 4T60-E/4T65-E runs about $200-$300 depending what you want to do. There are also a lot more hop-up parts available for the auto trannys than are for the GETRAG which is why I argue this point. People like ARCHIE claim all of these numbers but I have yet to see him posting consistant impressive track times. Your butt is not an effective dyno nor is a G-tech. Get some 1/4 passes, back them up, then do it again EVERY WEEK for a year and I will believe that the GETRAG is a good tranny. Until then; you have a baseless arguement.
Cost is always going to be argued on here as long as this BBS exists.
The simple fact of the matter is, how the SBC is so cheap to build, it will more than make up for when it comes to buying that install kit, sawzall blades, custom exhaust, etc etc... Again, where are the 11 sec SBC powered Fieros running 11s without NOS and without a stroker kit? You guys talk about all that you can do to LT1s, LS1s and SBCs but GOOD stroker kits and the machining required to install them cost more than an intercooler for a L67. Sure, you can buy the cheap summit stroker kit but it is not going to last.
Someone earlier said you could get an intense race L67 for $4000 and that is more than they had in their whole car. Well, I don't see you running 10s or even 11s so what are you trying to compare your car with? My Fiero runs 12s and I have less than $2500 in it including buying the car. Compare your car to that.
As far as comparing your typical caprice 383 to a GN; yes your caprice with the expensive motor might be cheaper than a GN, but that GN is also WORTH a hell of a lot more than your caprice. Good luck arguing with your insurance company trying to get them to pay for that expensive engine in that cheap car. BTW, it is cheaper to build-up a 6-cyl turbo 3.8 than it is to build up a SBC or any other motor for that matter to do the same job. I have 3 very close friends that have been there.
Contrary to popular belief, this thread is not about which engine makes the most power. This thread is about which power plant is the best all around choice; in my opinion; for the Fiero when we are balancing performance with durability and cost.
IP: Logged
02:24 PM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5922 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
Thats the biggest pile o' poop Ive read in awhile. I had my V8 installed at Archies, its a straight forward standard install, I did not have to pay any extra big $$ to have it "look pretty" and IMHO its probably just as easy if not easier to work on than the stock 2.8 ,,
Oh BTW nice install Sluppy!
Just how much did you pay for that install? How easy is it for you to change your alternator or your belt(s)? Any pics? I'll bet my 3800 is easier to work on than your SBC in a fiero because I HAVE WORKED ON ONE OF THOSE! Keep your poopie in the toilet where it belongs.
Lets just remember that we are all entitled to our own opinions and lets please not let this thread degrade into a flame saw war, that was not my intent. I was merely trying to share some insight and share my experiences and education pertaining to the performance arena.
BTW, your BS flag is inferior to my BS meter
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 07-11-2003).]
IP: Logged
02:28 PM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5922 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
Anyone want to race???? for fun!!! Isnt that what its about anyway??? Get off the 'puter and go drive!!!!! Myself included!!!! In the end I want one of each!!!
Sounds like an excellent idea! Who all on here is going to be at the Fiero 20th in Pontiac, Michigan? I am going to try to make it Friday for the drag racing (in which I will participate) if I can get the time off work. Will definately be there for the SAT car show.
IP: Logged
02:42 PM
GMGW3 Member
Posts: 471 From: West Allis, WI Registered: Dec 2001
.. Any pics? I'll bet my 3800 is easier to work on than your SBC in a fiero because I HAVE WORKED ON ONE OF THOSE! .
ya I have pics, so?
I had mine up last week to do a Oil change and did a bit of checking things out, Oil filter is a breeze, starter no problem to get at, Alt is about a 30 min. job (beer included). slide it forward pull belt,2 bolts boom its out... all 8 plugs are a piece of cake from below. You may have worked on one, but I OWN one, nice try. I think I see now why this thread was really started.. and its pathetic.
IP: Logged
02:49 PM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5922 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
I had mine up last week to do a Oil change and did a bit of checking things out, Oil filter is a breeze, starter no problem to get at, Alt is about a 30 min. job (beer included). slide it forward pull belt,2 bolts boom its out... all 8 plugs are a piece of cake from below. You may have worked on one, but I OWN one, nice try. I think I see now why this thread was really started.. and its pathetic.
Great, I am happy that you own one that you took no part in building. I am glad that you own one and no NOTHING about what it takes to put one together. I put a 4T60 OD trans into a V8 equipped fiero so maybe I KNOW A LITTLE SOMETHING ABOUT THEM. I think it is pathetic that people like you who don't do your own work get on here and try to knock people like me who actually do the swaps ourselves. Tell you what, have fun with your V8 Fiero. I am glad you spent a lot of money because you were not capable (or willing) of doing the work yourself. But don't come on here raising BS flags on me and calling my threads pathetic. Go drink some more beer, since it seems like that is what you know how to do better than me.
IP: Logged
02:58 PM
fiero wrecker Member
Posts: 47 From: Daytona Beach, FL, USA Registered: Mar 2003
I think we are seeing too much emphasis on quarter miles times here as the meter stick of performance. Lets not forget that the fiero is much more of a sports car than a drag car. So the merits of a certain swap should reflect this. How about accelerations at higher speeds like 60-100. Or even the handling of the car depending on the weight of the new drivetrain? Or the ability to drive long distances. To me I see the fiero as more of an all aorund performance car, not just 1/4 mile.
IP: Logged
03:03 PM
GMGW3 Member
Posts: 471 From: West Allis, WI Registered: Dec 2001
I think it is pathetic that people like you who don't do your own work get on here and try to knock people like me who actually do the swaps ourselves. Tell you what, have fun with your V8 Fiero. I am glad you spent a lot of money because you were not capable (or willing) of doing the work yourself. me.
How would u even know? Buddy you are clueless, Ive done more than my share of working on cars, swaps and rebody projects, so why talk out your ass when you dont even know me. I decided to have Archie do the install because I dont have the time for another project like that I have other things to tend to. I pulled the BS flag on that particular paragraph because you got all your facts F'd up. I call it how I see it. Im happy you know how to do nothing but bash on V8's Im done with this lame thread, since its pointless trying to argue this any further.
IP: Logged
03:15 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14307 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Until then; you have a baseless arguement.
Fine. Like I said, I don't owe you anything.
quote
Someone earlier said you could get an intense race L67 for $4000 and that is more than they had in their whole car. Well, I don't see you running 10s or even 11s so what are you trying to compare your car with? My Fiero runs 12s and I have less than $2500 in it including buying the car. Compare your car to that.
Is yours the average L67 swap? I wasn't comparing my car to the 10 sec GTP. I brought it up because you seemed to be unaware of it.
quote
in my opinion; for the Fiero when we are balancing performance with durability and cost.
Then why did you start it by pedagogically stating your opinion as fact?
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:It has come to my attention that once again there is a lot of misinformation (most likely spun by people with bias opinions) floating around out there in the PFF world
yes there are a lot of people with bias - and its obvious you are biased to the L67 I would agree with you that the 3800sc is probably the easiest swap but that does not make it the best if the N* is done properly it will provide more reliable power I don't like the idea of cutting up the frame but an SBC is also a very nice swap and a very proven engine. this thread really has fizzled out beyond helping anyone
IP: Logged
03:52 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
Great, I am happy that you own one that you took no part in building. I am glad that you own one and no NOTHING about what it takes to put one together. I put a 4T60 OD trans into a V8 equipped fiero so maybe I KNOW A LITTLE SOMETHING ABOUT THEM. I think it is pathetic that people like you who don't do your own work get on here and try to knock people like me who actually do the swaps ourselves. Tell you what, have fun with your V8 Fiero. I am glad you spent a lot of money because you were not capable (or willing) of doing the work yourself. But don't come on here raising BS flags on me and calling my threads pathetic. Go drink some more beer, since it seems like that is what you know how to do better than me.
Amazing, Darth, besides the fact that 99% of what you say is baloney, you have just let everybody know just how dumb you really are. I went to your web site and I've seen other posts where you have sought out people who will pay you to do swaps for them. Now you come here and put someone down for doing just what you have solicited others to do.
So now all your potential customers can see what you really think of them and say about them when they aren't looking.
Take that sponge of a brain you have and try to mop up the poop you just stepped in.
Yeap, you're a really smart feller.....
Or, like a friend of mine would say....You're a really fart smeller.
Archie
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 07-11-2003).]
it's just not worth it anymore. I wrote up a reply earlier today about the northstar vs the 3.8SC , I tired to be unbias as possible.. I ended up deleting it. this forum has so many morons on it who are experts on everything and nothing.... As long as it's what they have under the hood , it's the best. Im not saying the northstar is the best, but it has a lot more potential than 99.9% of the people realize..
I need to go finish working on my N*'s fuel system... This is like trying to push a truck with a rope.
God folks what every you do to your fiero that makes you happy is whats most important. (unless Stickers are your performance mod, then I will ridicule you to death)
Special Note for Archie: It's what you do to other peoples Fieros that makes them happy that matters.
Can't we all just get along? Or are we going to have to ask Cliff for a SBC vs N* vs 3.8 Bar. IMHO there all good. I want one of each.
IP: Logged
10:27 PM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5922 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
Amazing, Darth, besides the fact that 99% of what you say is baloney, you have just let everybody know just how dumb you really are. I went to your web site and I've seen other posts where you have sought out people who will pay you to do swaps for them. Now you come here and put someone down for doing just what you have solicited others to do.
So now all your potential customers can see what you really think of them and say about them when they aren't looking.
Take that sponge of a brain you have and try to mop up the poop you just stepped in.
Yeap, you're a really smart feller.....
Or, like a friend of mine would say....You're a really fart smeller.
Archie
Archie, your posts bore me. As usual you have 0 point to them other than to bash me. I am actually beginning to think that you are jealous of my intelligence. But that is besides the point. The point is that in this day and age performance is measured by 1/4 mile times, not by 60mph kickdowns or how fast your car can turn a corner. I am glad to hear that you have been to my website and seen all of the wonderful things that I have had my hands in over the years. I am also happy to hear that I am able to get under your skin so easily. There is a lot that can be said about that.
To the rest of you...If you don't like me because of my opinions, education, or knowledge, I could really give a rat's ass. Believe me that I would not lose any sleep at nite knowing that someone on PFF doesn't like me because I hold a BIAS opinion about which motor is better for the Fiero. I just posted this because there are so many other posts out there that contain what I consider to be inaccurate information. The FACT of the matter is all of you "V8 lovers" still owe me an 11 sec N* or SBC powered Fiero that can run the numbers without NOS or a stroker kit. I am still waiting, and I think I will be waiting for a very long time. BTW, I own a V8 too, it just isn't in a Fiero.
IP: Logged
11:13 PM
Jul 12th, 2003
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
I am actually beginning to think that you are jealous of my intelligence.
haha..... just keep thinking that, you're wrong on most everything else you post.
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero: The point is that in this day and age performance is measured by 1/4 mile times, not by 60mph kickdowns or how fast your car can turn a corner.
You say you're so smart, but you're so wrong. The cars of the 60's were measured by 1/4 miles times. TODAY'S cars are measured and advertized by overall performance. Cornering, stopping and acceleration. In your 1st post you tell us that the 3.8sc is the best overall performance package .... now you say that 1/4 mile is all that counts. We are all shaking our heads wondering where you'll land next.
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
I am also happy to hear that I am able to get under your skin so easily. There is a lot that can be said about that.
Yeah, right.
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
To the rest of you...If you don't like me because of my opinions, education, or knowledge, I could really give a rat's ass.
They don't like you because you act like a jerk. You come out looking for a flame war and then cry when you get one. You come on here being "Mr. Know it all" when you have no clue who you are even talking to.
Wow, 10 years hopping up cars..... haha..... I (and several others you've insulted) were building performance cars when you were still $hitting green.
Yeah you bring a "fresh perspective to the table" like "The point is that in this day and age performance is measured by 1/4 mile times"..... right, we are so jealous of your superior intelligence.
Well, just like everybody else that tried to participate in this thread, I'll just walk out of the room shaking my head.
Archie
------------------
IP: Logged
12:54 AM
Gridlock Member
Posts: 2874 From: New Westminster, BC Canada Registered: Apr 2002
Amazing, Darth, besides the fact that 99% of what you say is baloney, you have just let everybody know just how dumb you really are. I went to your web site and I've seen other posts where you have sought out people who will pay you to do swaps for them. Now you come here and put someone down for doing just what you have solicited others to do.
So now all your potential customers can see what you really think of them and say about them when they aren't looking.
Take that sponge of a brain you have and try to mop up the poop you just stepped in.
Yeap, you're a really smart feller.....
Or, like a friend of mine would say....You're a really fart smeller.
Archie
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 07-11-2003).]
OK, its got to be said. I'm getting sick of this ^. Yes he said "cobbed" which in my opinion was inappropriate, as every picture I've seen of Archie's work does not appear to be cobbled, but come on. If someone says something negative about an SBC swap, it gets retorted with a personal attack.
They don't like you because you act like a jerk. You come out looking for a flame war and then cry when you get one. You come on here being "Mr. Know it all" when you have no clue who you are even talking to.
Wow, 10 years hopping up cars..... haha..... I (and several others you've insulted) were building performance cars when you were still $hitting green.
Yeah you bring a "fresh perspective to the table" like "The point is that in this day and age performance is measured by 1/4 mile times"..... right, we are so jealous of your superior intelligence.
Well, just like everybody else that tried to participate in this thread, I'll just walk out of the room shaking my head.
Archie
As usual, nothing ever changes on PFF.. Someone trys to make a point based on fact.. Will then gets his feelings hurt and goes off on tangents and Archie resorts to name calling and rants.. (3.8 cubes vs 4.6 or 5.7) one only needs to swap in the ecm for a 3800sc auto swap and be DONE with the tuning..and be able to BUY over the counter performance chips..Will has been trying to perfect his chip for over a year, and still hasn't got it sorted out.. And CrazyD just confirmed in another post that Archie was no help in getting his swap running right. ( and by the way it WAS a swap that Archie did..) make all the excuses that you need to Archie, BUT the facts speak for themselves. YOU never did get Daves car running to it's true potential...He is now asking others for help in this matter. And if one continues to try to stick to the facts and issues then the few ( less than 100) who think that a negative rating will shut the person up will start rating... stick to the issues Archie.. explain how a HP crate SBC will run perfectly with your swap kit.. By the way... LS1's ARE NOT SBC ENGINES ..
