I am planning a V8 swap and want to make sure I do it right from the beginning! My current considerations are the Northstar, LT1, and LS1. This will be a daily driven car. Here are my opinions of the 3...
Northstar Pro's... Very cool, very high-tech, very efficient for gas mileage. Looks and sounds cooler to claim you have a Northstar Fiero than any of the other swaps in my opinion. Con's... It's HUGE! Little availability of aftermarket parts. Space limitations will make it difficult to add a centrifugal supercharger later.
LT1 ('93-'97) Pro's... Lots of aftermarket parts. Not as much as the Northstar, but still very high-tech and cool. Lots of room for a supercharger, as far as V8 Fieros are concerned. Con's... It's the more common of the three, (at least the small block is) and I like to be different.
LS1 Pro's... Very uncommon, maybe hasn't even been done yet. Very cool and high-tech. Good parts availability. Con's... It hasn't been done? Might have some with the swap for this reason.
If anyone out there has done any/all of these three, can you tell me what you like and don't like about each?
------------------ Scott Rigdon 1988 Fiero GT, Black 5 speed 38,000 Original Miles! Cherry!
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11:46 PM
PFF
System Bot
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Northstar - fabulous swap, but VERY expensive to do (comparatively). http://www.chrfab.com for hot rod parts for the N*, but again, they ain't cheap. But, not too hard to get around 400HP out of one.
LT1 - Nice engine, but a difficult swap due to the extra hardware on the front of the engine. Requires the engine be shifted to the left some. Check out the LT1 Fiero on the Forum for more info. I don't remember his website, but a search for LT1 Fiero should find it.
LS6 - Another great engine - but you're on your own here. Archie has played with one, but there's no swap kit avaiable. Maybe in the future - maybe not. Ask Archie (http://www.v8archie.com) for more info. He is the undisputed king of Small Block Chevy Fiero swaps.
A couple options you left out were, carbureated SBC and a TPI SBC. Carbureated is the easiest and cheapest, if emissions concerns aren't a problem. TPI isn't much harder, is emissions compliant, has great driveability. TPI is a bit more expensive and harder to get power from, but there's a hugh aftermarket. TPI would be my choice for a daily driven car if emissions were a concern. Otherwise, I'd go carbureated. I'd also use a Fast Burn 350 crate engine with the Hot Cam for about 425 horse power out of the box! But that's just me.
If you want serious budget, you can check out the Caddy 4.9 swaps, but they're definately the low point on the performance V8 ladder. Cheap, but little aftermarket, and not a high HP engine to start with. But it fits nicely.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 08-18-2001).]
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11:56 PM
Aug 19th, 2001
artherd Member
Posts: 4159 From: Petaluma, CA. USA Registered: Apr 2001
The Northstar is a screamer, even moreso as soon as you modify it. If you like the idea of spending a great deal of time above 6,000rpm with a 4-cam all aluminum V8 wailing inches from your head, then you owe it to yourself :) :)
Oh, by the way, the northstar BOLTS UP to the fiero transmission. Yeah, SAME bolt pattern. Cadilac 4.9v8 is the only other v8 that can make this claim.
Do not attempt a northstar unless carburators frighten you MORE than computers :) :)
Cost wise, they're all about equivlient, with the nod having to go to the LS1 just because it's harder to find right now (this WILL change...) My entire Northstar swap is going to be about $6k. (plus car)
The LT1 is probally your best bet, it does add weight, but it does NOT require moving the engine. It's got a cam driven waterpump (like the Northstar.) and there are insane hop-up parts if you want.
LS1... If you're brave, go for it!! hot rod parts are coming soon and fast.
Requires one heluva adapter plate, and I don't know what else. Archie should know by now, but he's keeping a lid on things. I suggest a phone call :)
Best! Ben
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top Metalic Red 88 Formula, Silver 87 Coupe, Metalic Red "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
Priceless info so far! Thanks! But I definitely left out some important info in my original post, so here goes...
Carbs vs. EFI... Have had both, and had to work on both. Have rebuilt enough carbs (some on the side of the road!) for one lifetime. EFI is way cooler and a new challenge. (Not carb-bashing here, Just my opinion!) For mpg and sanity, it has to be EFI!
Also, on the Northstar... The numbers I've seen indicate low 13's for a Northstar, and low 12's for an LT1... This is a BIG difference! (I went from G-bodies to the Fiero because the new stuff out there is just too fast to compete with and still get good mpg's...) I suspect that the Northstar doesn't have the torque nor the flat torque curve of the LT1, thus the higher 1/4 times. Can anyone argue this with me or show me where to find curves for both (all 3?) engines?
Also, I have an '84 4x4 S10 Blazer with a TPI H.O. 305 V8 in it, so I've done at least one EFI swap before, and it doesn't scare me in the least! In fact, I can't wait to do another one... Formula88 has a great suggestion with the TPI 350, but since I've done the TPI thing now I want to do something new. The TPI performs great and looks very, very cool, especially in a beat-up trail truck covered with mud!!! (Visit http://www.rigdonhome.com if you want to see/learn more about my Blazer...)
Emissions aren't currently a legal issue where I live, but for pride and just-in-case-I-move-again sake, I want it to be completely emissions legal.
$Money$ !!! Is always an issue, but for the sake of this argument let's assume that I have it! I bought a Cherry Fiero to use for this swap, and I want a Cherry swap to go with it! If it means waiting a year more to come up with the dough, then so be it...
Cheers, Scott
------------------ Scott Rigdon 1988 Fiero GT, Black 5 speed 38,000 Original Miles! Cherry!
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05:33 AM
artherd Member
Posts: 4159 From: Petaluma, CA. USA Registered: Apr 2001
Well, quartermile times are going to vary amoungst the various LT1s....
A bone stock 'pull it out of a 'vette and plunk it in a fiero' LT1 will lose to a similar "yank and pull' northstar.
However, there is one particuliar list member who has done a LOT of work on his LT1 motor, and is running 12-sec times (California Kid, his car rocks :)
No one yet has taken a Northstar past what came from GM, though it is possible... perhaps I will be the first? www.chrfab.com has heads alone that will add over 100bhp. 12:1 pistons also add nearly 90bhp. It's unclear what both would yeild, but at the sacrifice of a little low end torque, (the northstar makes quite a bit, so no big deal) a conservative 450bhp is achiveable today. eeek. www.gmpowertrain.com has torque curves for the Northstar, and they're pretty good. Flat far furthur than any pushrod motor.
One thing, I wouldn't plan on using the GM ECU for a manual tranny Northstar swap. I am going with a totally aftermakret computer where I can make my own 3D fuel maps, etc.
Whatever path you choose, you can't really go wrong with any of the three engines you've mentioned, it's going to be one FUN car!!
Best! Ben.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top Metalic Red 88 Formula, Silver 87 Coupe, Metalic Red "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
California Kid's car does not have a LT1 in it I don't believe. I know it uses a modded TPI system , which gives away the fact that it is not an LT1
It all comes down to personal choice. Any of the motors can be made to go fast , some , like the Northstar take more money. There are trade off's to all engine swaps.
------------------ Jonathan McCreery 86 GT 4spd Koni's , Coilovers, Big Bars , 17" Trmotorsports Typhoons , 11.25" vented discs, Wilwood 4 Piston Calipers , Pirelli P Zero's, Short Shift, No cat , Cold air induction , Geni Stainless tips, White face gauges , Momo shift , momo pedals, White face Gauges , 70Hp Shot of NOS Autocrossed , Tracked , Dragged? (soon) abused.
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09:57 AM
Jay Member
Posts: 1107 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: May 2000
Rigdonhome, I have a Northstar and I gotta tell you I love it! I think this winter I may go with a 5 speed manual but even with the automatic it is fast! I love the looks and comments I get about my car. Low 13's on a stock Northstar is pretty damn good! NOS, turbos and eventually supercharger will all make the Northstar go faster. Space is not an issue. It is actually easier to access than the 2.8 (in my opinion). The manual tranny doesn't line up completely. One bolt is off and webbing must be removed inside the bell housing to clear the starter, but it is doable. There is a post from Will with detail photos...do a search.
My conversion cost me less then $10 000 Canadian. I did most of the work myself, and it sounds like you will do the same. One word of advice...get an aftermarket computer system and save yourself some time in working the wiring. The Northstar is complicated and fussy. Or you could go with Howel's wiring harness for about $900US, but for that price you could get a Haltech. I may also have a lead on a custom chip which will eliminate the ABS ect that the stock ECM keeps looking for.
My vote is for the Northstar for obvious reasons. My web page in my signature has photos and info on the swap if you are interested in taking a look at what is involved. Good luck, and welcome to the forum.
------------------ Jay 1986 Northstar GT www.members.home.net/jaygrande
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11:21 AM
KRMFiero Member
Posts: 2711 From: Providence, RI Registered: Sep 2000
Originally posted by artherd: Oh, by the way, the northstar BOLTS UP to the fiero transmission. Yeah, SAME bolt pattern. Cadilac 4.9v8 is the only other v8 that can make this claim.
First You want to use Caddy Trans if possible if you go Northstar. Second many other v-8s have the BOP bolt pattern, lets see Caddy: 4.1, 4.5, 4.9 hmm Buick's Small block 350's have the BOP and they bolt right up, Pontiac's 350 is BOP, Oldsmobile probley has a 350 BOP... Reason why people use the Chevy 350 over the BOP ones is because of the wieght difference, Chevys are alot lighter... I think anyway, anyone feel free to correct me
------------------ 1984 Pontiac Fiero 2M4 SE (Red) Caddy 4.5 V-8/Overdrive Tranny 1985 Pontiac Fiero 2M4 SE (White) 5 speed with blown clutch :(
AOL: Physcokyle
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12:16 PM
85ZainoGT Member
Posts: 973 From: Plainfield, Indiana, USA Registered: Aug 2001
I disagree that a stock northstar in a Fiero will beat a stock LT1 in a fiero. There is a big difference in these motors when it comes to performance. Its called TORQUE and the n* has quite a bit less in a couple of areas.
best N* motor 300hp/295 ftlbs torque every LT1 300hp/340 ftlbs of torque
right there the LT1 is making 45 more ftlbs which is a significant difference.
Also an LT1 torque curve is incredibly flat, full power comes on at 1500 RPM all the way to 5,000 RPM and then drops slightly.
The n* peak tourqe doesn't come untill 4,400 RPM. Thats a huge difference.
Most stock LT1 I have seen run very low 13s high 12s. I have yet to see many unmodified N* running low 13s.
I like the N* swaps(chris moore's) but I think an LT1 is faster, cheaper, and easily modded for a Fiero.
Both motors have issues with the fiero tranny however(actually we don't know to much about the n* with getrag, waiting to hear from will). It seems when anyone tries to break into the 11s the clutchs don't hold or the trannys go.
The only way I see a N* being faster is in topspeed as it has a higher redline.
Jim 87 GT 87 GT T-TOP V8
[This message has been edited by Jimmy (edited 08-19-2001).]
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03:19 PM
Aug 20th, 2001
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Originally posted by KRMFiero: First You want to use Caddy Trans if possible if you go Northstar. Second many other v-8s have the BOP bolt pattern, lets see Caddy: 4.1, 4.5, 4.9 hmm Buick's Small block 350's have the BOP and they bolt right up, Pontiac's 350 is BOP, Oldsmobile probley has a 350 BOP... Reason why people use the Chevy 350 over the BOP ones is because of the wieght difference, Chevys are alot lighter... I think anyway, anyone feel free to correct me
Yes, many V8's have the BOP bolt pattern, but the BOP bolt pattern for a rear wheel drive 90* V8 is different than the bolt pattern for a 60* V6. They're totally different. At http://www.chrfab.com they even tell you that to put a N* in a front engine/rear drive car, you need to use the 700R4 tranny out of an S10 with the 60* V6, so it'll have the same bolt pattern. If it was the same as any BOP engine, you could easily go with a Turbo350 or Turbo400 tranny.
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12:06 AM
PFF
System Bot
artherd Member
Posts: 4159 From: Petaluma, CA. USA Registered: Apr 2001
Hi Jimmy, bench racing asside, we will know soon enough.
Biggest issue with the Northstar is the ECU, I have yet to see one running properly. (and all with slushboxes.)
As Jonothan said, there are pros and cons to every swap. The thing is, just do whatever puts the biggest grin on your face
Best! Ben.
ps: Here are the previously promosed torque and HP curves of a northstar overlaid. (As best as I could, note this data is *not* to be taken as completely accurate as I had to alter a (non-liniar?) scale of one of the tests. I used the 300hp n* (it's what I have) versus the LS1 out of a camaro. (not a vette.)
Originally posted by Jimmy: I disagree that a stock northstar in a Fiero will beat a stock LT1 in a fiero. There is a big difference in these motors when it comes to performance. Its called TORQUE and the n* has quite a bit less in a couple of areas.
best N* motor 300hp/295 ftlbs torque every LT1 300hp/340 ftlbs of torque
right there the LT1 is making 45 more ftlbs which is a significant difference.
Also an LT1 torque curve is incredibly flat, full power comes on at 1500 RPM all the way to 5,000 RPM and then drops slightly.
The n* peak tourqe doesn't come untill 4,400 RPM. Thats a huge difference.
Most stock LT1 I have seen run very low 13s high 12s. I have yet to see many unmodified N* running low 13s.
I like the N* swaps(chris moore's) but I think an LT1 is faster, cheaper, and easily modded for a Fiero.
Both motors have issues with the fiero tranny however(actually we don't know to much about the n* with getrag, waiting to hear from will). It seems when anyone tries to break into the 11s the clutchs don't hold or the trannys go.
The only way I see a N* being faster is in topspeed as it has a higher redline.
Jim 87 GT 87 GT T-TOP V8
[This message has been edited by Jimmy (edited 08-19-2001).]
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top Metalic Red 88 Formula, Silver 87 Coupe, Metalic Red "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
[This message has been edited by artherd (edited 08-20-2001).]
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02:24 PM
FieroLT1 Member
Posts: 320 From: MilwauKee, Wisconsin, USA Registered: Nov 2000
Originally posted by rigdonhome: Formula88 and arthurd, but ALL too!
Also, on the Northstar... The numbers I've seen indicate low 13's for a Northstar, and low 12's for an LT1... This is a BIG difference! (I went from G-bodies to the Fiero because the new stuff out there is just too fast to compete with and still get good mpg's...) I suspect that the Northstar doesn't have the torque nor the flat torque curve of the LT1, thus the higher 1/4 times. Can anyone argue this with me or show me where to find curves for both (all 3?) engines?
Not really interested in starting a fight with the N* guys here. But do believe the HP and torque on the LT1 are a notch higher. Does that mean the LT1 is a better option? That is much up to the builder and to know what you really want. I went with the LT1 because I wanted one. Plain and simple. It's slick, it's powerful, high tech and fairly easy to install. As an added bonus, parts are cheap, plentiful and virtually everywhere. I love my LT1 and if I had the chance of building another V8 Fiero, it'll be another LT1 for sure.
The biggest deference in performance isn't the power its the weight of the N* tranny that thing is HUGE!! AND the N* has a lot of tuning probs you need to get it perfect too see the 300hp.
Hook the N* to a 5 speed and you will see some nice #'s but a few broken trans's
But Still my $$$$$ would be on the LT-1 for pure speed.
But in my oppinion the 3.8s/c is easly the best all around engine swap.
All vette motors are 4 bolt main aluminum head engines
Impala SS and Caprice wagon with towing package and 9C1 cars are 260hp , Iron head 2 bolt blocks , Caprices have crank driven fans , Impala's have electric. Wagon motors limited to 108mph , Crusier and Impala Motor not limited , this makes a difference if you have to buy a hypertech power programmer for $350 , as the ecm's chips are Hard wired
Camaro's power varies with years from 275 to 285 , all electric fan , aluminum head 2 bolt blocks.
Keep in mind you can swap on a set of LT4 heads as we have done with our Impala SSized Caprice wagon , simple bolt on yields 45 more HP over the iron units (not RW HP)
Even withthe 260hp iron head version our 4600lbs Station wagon was able to beat our 95 5.0ltr mustang.
Not all Lt1's are created equal , make sure you check codes before you buy.
JM
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06:11 PM
EdsB52 Member
Posts: 850 From: Tempe, Arizona, USA Registered: Jul 2000
Originally posted by Jimmy: I disagree that a stock northstar in a Fiero will beat a stock LT1 in a fiero. There is a big difference in these motors when it comes to performance. Its called TORQUE and the n* has quite a bit less in a couple of areas.
best N* motor 300hp/295 ftlbs torque every LT1 300hp/340 ftlbs of torque
right there the LT1 is making 45 more ftlbs which is a significant difference.
Also an LT1 torque curve is incredibly flat, full power comes on at 1500 RPM all the way to 5,000 RPM and then drops slightly.
The n* peak tourqe doesn't come untill 4,400 RPM. Thats a huge difference.
Most stock LT1 I have seen run very low 13s high 12s. I have yet to see many unmodified N* running low 13s.
I like the N* swaps(chris moore's) but I think an LT1 is faster, cheaper, and easily modded for a Fiero.
Both motors have issues with the fiero tranny however(actually we don't know to much about the n* with getrag, waiting to hear from will). It seems when anyone tries to break into the 11s the clutchs don't hold or the trannys go.
The only way I see a N* being faster is in topspeed as it has a higher redline.
Jim 87 GT 87 GT T-TOP V8
[This message has been edited by Jimmy (edited 08-19-2001).]
"every LT1 300hp/340 ftlbs of torque"
Actually my 94 Camaro is 275 HP and a little more torque, but I agree that it's a torque monster from idle up.
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06:22 PM
EdsB52 Member
Posts: 850 From: Tempe, Arizona, USA Registered: Jul 2000
On the outset, I believe the LT-1 swap makes more sense. It produces more HP, is easier to work on, and would probably beat a Northstar Fiero while both in stock configuration. It's obviously a pushrod motor, which is inherently more reliable than a 4 cam motor. It's a bit heavier, but if you're going to striaght line race like most people do, the weight is negligible. The one element that ultimately makes the Northstar a better swap is the availability of transmissions and the matching to each engine. By the graphs, the Northstar doesn't mind reving as much as the LT-1. By owning a car with an LT-1, I can attest to the torque manufacturing capabilities of the LT-1 and so did GM. They established gear ratios that work well with the LT-1 from 94 on. The Isuzu and the Getrag both have approximately the same FD ratios, which are inappropriate for the LT-1. To me, the LT-1 with either transmission becomes a sprint car; fun to race, tough to daily drive. Just my opinions.
Doh- I somehow forgot about earlier model camaros and caprices when reffering to LT1s.
My v8 is way more civil and easier to drive than my v6 GT. Especially when cruising around town. I'll agree a different gear set would help stretch out the legs of a SB chev but on the flip side the ratios make the car jump up and go. I was able to easily take an experienced Typhoon driver off the line(been trying to match up with him forever!). SyTys have some of the fastest 60' times around.
Jim
[This message has been edited by Jimmy (edited 08-21-2001).]
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03:39 AM
EdsB52 Member
Posts: 850 From: Tempe, Arizona, USA Registered: Jul 2000
Originally posted by Jimmy: Doh- I somehow forgot about earlier model camaros and caprices when reffering to LT1s.
My v8 is way more civil and easier to drive than my v6 GT. Especially when cruising around town. I'll agree a different gear set would help stretch out the legs of a SB chev but on the flip side the ratios make the car jump up and go. I was able to easily take an experienced Typhoon driver off the line(been trying to match up with him forever!). SyTys have some of the fastest 60' times around.
Jim
[This message has been edited by Jimmy (edited 08-21-2001).]
The 94 and up Z-28 Camaros have a tranny output ratio of .50 (6 speeds), with a diff ratio of 3.42. Trust me, they don't have gearing problems. In fact, I can easily take off in second gear. That engine is such a torque monster that it's a shame to run it with short gears; you never get to realize the potential of the motor. Now, take that fact and erase 800 lbs. The gearing insufficiencies are exacerbated. A Fiero with a SBC and the stock trannies are sprint cars; nothing wrong with that, just not my choice for daily drivability.
I'm pretty sure that no matter which V8 I go with I'll enjoy driving it every day!!! How could you not?
I have an '84 4x4 S10 Blazer powered by an '86 H.O. 5.0L TPI V8, and it's far from refined. In fact, it's beat up and very, very ugly. However, I love to drive it daily... all winter long and on the trails. Ahhh, the hummm of Mud Tires at 90mph!
An LT1 Fiero should be no problem!!!
------------------ Scott Rigdon 1988 Fiero GT, Black 5 speed 38,000 Original Miles! Cherry!
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07:57 PM
artherd Member
Posts: 4159 From: Petaluma, CA. USA Registered: Apr 2001
I'm pretty sure that no matter which V8 I go with I'll enjoy driving it every day.
:) Exactly. You really CAN'T go wrong with a V8 Fiero (well, ok, it's really hard to at least...)
I do wish you listers would stop with the unfounded BS about the northstar, though I do get a kick out of it. "it's not as powerful as the LT1" in one sentence, then "yeah, but northstars will break trannys" in the next...
If you've actually seen an northstar break a 5-speed, please let me know. if not, kindly SHUT THE FSCK UP!
There.
Now I'm happy.
Roger: if you go LT1, try your darndest to pull one out of a corvette. I belive any corvette, as they were mostly all the same?
Also, an aftermarket fuel injection setup would be a really good idea (if you're not afraid of tuning 3D fuel maps with your laptop, etc. if you are, just go with the stock ECUs.)
Above all, enjoy the car~! (and don't forget to put that battery up front!)
Best! Ben.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top Metalic Red 88 Formula, Silver 87 Coupe, Metalic Red "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
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09:14 PM
Jay Member
Posts: 1107 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: May 2000
I also agree about people making statements about stuff they have not experienced, engineered, or built.
I have seen people say the same thing about 3.8SC motors that have been heavily modded, saying they would be easier on a getrag than a V8. 3.8SC will destroy a drivetrain just as easy as a N* or SB swap if they are putting out the same kind of torque numbers. Its the same setup no matter what the tranny is bolted too(except on N* you do have to do some surgery to the bellhousing, is it bad for the tranny? dunno can't be good) so the only factors that matter between each swap is the clutch setup, tire size, and torque/hp numbers.
Seriously, we all know the getrag in Fieros were not made to hold the high torque numbers we have been bolting them up to, however, many of us have been running them in high performance setups for many of years and miles with no major problems. I am sure GM built these trannys with some sort of overhead in mind. How else can you explain the fact that I haven't heard of anyone breaking one.
I've never seen an Iron Duke self destruct from a 100 shot of NOS either, doesn't mean it won't happen.
quote
Seriously, we all know the getrag in Fieros were not made to hold the high torque numbers we have been bolting them up to, however, many of us have been running them in high performance setups for many of years and miles with no major problems. I am sure GM built these trannys with some sort of overhead in mind. How else can you explain the fact that I haven't heard of anyone breaking one.
Not so sure if GM doubled the intended Hp/Torque numbers for any tranny. I have heard of more then one person breaking one. I had a 130k mile Formula that was meticulously maintained (had all records for tranny fluid changes), yet the syncro's were trash. This is on a stock 2.8.
IMHO stick with the tranny that came with the motor, unless you truly enjoy changing clutches every 5-10k miles. There is a reason why GM won't put a 5 speed to their current V6s (and it's not price for a change). Even if the tranny holds, the clutch won't.
BTW, don't be so quick to trust the people selling the product. Remember who needs to make the profit. I am sure Mobil's recommended oil change intervals are different from the car manufacturers.
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01:32 AM
EdsB52 Member
Posts: 850 From: Tempe, Arizona, USA Registered: Jul 2000
Originally posted by rigdonhome: Define Sprint Car? I'm looking for an all-around high-performer... 1/4 mile, top speed, handling, comfy interior, good mpg...
There is no such thing as an 'all-around high-performer.' It's a trade-off; little more power generally means a little more weight, which means less agility. Want more handling, give up some weight, hence HP. Want more room, lose speed, acceleration, and handling. It's a proportional trade-off. That's what I like about the Northstar, it weighs about 10 lbs more than the 2.8 and is, according to Bill, only 1" longer. If you have gobs of money you can overcome this law of physics somewhat, but you never completely escape it. You really learn these laws when you're in aviation because they're more prominent.
A sprint car is a car that goes like hell for short periods, by my definition. It performs one task and performs it well. I think a V-8 Fiero with the available transmissions becomes a sprint car to a degree, in that the gearing is too short allowing the car to accelerate quickly but run out of gearing too soon.
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02:08 AM
EdsB52 Member
Posts: 850 From: Tempe, Arizona, USA Registered: Jul 2000
Originally posted by artherd: Exactly. You really CAN'T go wrong with a V8 Fiero (well, ok, it's really hard to at least...)
I do wish you listers would stop with the unfounded BS about the northstar, though I do get a kick out of it. "it's not as powerful as the LT1" in one sentence, then "yeah, but northstars will break trannys" in the next...
If you've actually seen an northstar break a 5-speed, please let me know. if not, kindly SHUT THE FSCK UP!
There.
Now I'm happy.
Roger: if you go LT1, try your darndest to pull one out of a corvette. I belive any corvette, as they were mostly all the same?
Also, an aftermarket fuel injection setup would be a really good idea (if you're not afraid of tuning 3D fuel maps with your laptop, etc. if you are, just go with the stock ECUs.)
Above all, enjoy the car~! (and don't forget to put that battery up front!)
Best! Ben.
Ya, any V-8 Fiero would be great, but the 'match' to the SBC isn't as good as the match to the Northstar, based on how/when they produce there HP/torque and their RPM potential. It's not fun cruising around above 2,500 rpm with an LT-1. Racing yes, cruising no.
I think an LT-1 would break a tranny before a Northstar, based on torque production.
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02:15 AM
artherd Member
Posts: 4159 From: Petaluma, CA. USA Registered: Apr 2001
Hrm, not sure if I'm reading this right, but it sounds like you're saying a V8 fiero will run out of gears?? The car is currently setup such that upon achiving redline in 5th gear, at the 6500rpm redline of both the LS1, and northstar, you are doing 195mph. (based on my car turning 3,000rpm at 90mph right now. well, not RIGHT now, yesterday ~;)
Yes, you make tradeoffs for performance, the best handling fieros are (in theroey, if you put a formula's springs in an 88 coupe for instance) the 4-cylinders!
The trick is to pick the tradeoffs that make you happy.
PS: as to the iron duke blowing with an extra 100hp shot of Nitrous, well, the scientist in me says indeed that I can't say for sure it will happen untill I see it. Or rather see evidence of it (eg: pictures.) Untill then, well, I'd be spouting unfounded BS. (the theroetical world always suffers from insufficent data, if I knew to a very percise level the constituency of said iron duke's rods for instance, I could plug all that data into ProE and it will tell me not only what will break, but where, and when, and what I need to add/remove to make it last. And last how long?
This kind of has gotten away from V8s, but yeah, if 195mph in a V8 Fiero is too slow for you, I deem you more insane than I!!
Best! Ben.
quote
Originally posted by EdsB52: ..I think a V-8 Fiero with the available transmissions becomes a sprint car to a degree, in that the gearing is too short allowing the car to accelerate quickly but run out of gearing too soon.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top Metalic Red 88 Formula, Silver 87 Coupe, Metalic Red "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
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09:06 AM
Raydar Member
Posts: 41141 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
Originally posted by Jimmy: ...Seriously, we all know the getrag in Fieros were not made to hold the high torque numbers we have been bolting them up to, however, many of us have been running them in high performance setups for many of years and miles with no major problems. I am sure GM built these trannys with some sort of overhead in mind. How else can you explain the fact that I haven't heard of anyone breaking one.
A guy in our club fractured a Getrag to the point of non-repairability. With a box-stock 2.8. He's a wildman, though. Could break a crowbar in a sandbox. And have fun doing it.
We have a Forum member who had a 383 stroker through a 4 speed Muncie (generally regarded as the strongest Fiero tranny) who split the case wide open after about a half hour of tire-smoking burnouts.
The point of all this is that it depends upon how you drive it. If you subject the drivetrain to a lot of shock loading (speed shifting, sidestepping the clutch, burnouts, etc.) stuff is gonna break, sooner or later.
Many people prefer automatics because they generally don't subject the drivetrain to the same kinds of shock loading.
IMHO, with the kind of horsepower and torque a V-8 makes, you really don't need a manual tranny. I'm sure, however, that many will disagree.
------------------ Raydar - aka Steve
Black 88 Formula. Red 88 Duke coupe. "The Project" 88 Formula parts car. "The Donor"
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09:56 AM
PFF
System Bot
artherd Member
Posts: 4159 From: Petaluma, CA. USA Registered: Apr 2001
Tina's pressure plate overheated, fractured, then caused the rest of the damage :)
Yes, I vhnimently disagree about sluchboxes, it's a personal thing, but I don't drive in a straight line....
(I do of course agree with you on the point of abuse, any car will fail if subjected to severe and constant abuse, archie says it, and it should be common sense. )
What's surprising to me is how few Getrags have been blown. No offence, and I'm sure it probally happened to your friend, but anecdoctal third-party tales are ALL I've ever heard. I have never seen, nor seen pictures of, a 5-speed Getrag that failed catastrophically in a Fiero.
I'm very surprised at this, even discounting any engine swaps and improper maintinence (it dosen't count if you put the gears back in backwards guys, but I haven't even seen THAT! :) I mean, statistically, it *should* have happened to a fourm member or three. Right?
Best! Ben.
quote
Originally posted by Raydar: We have a Forum member who had a 383 stroker through a 4 speed Muncie (generally regarded as the strongest Fiero tranny) who split the case wide open after about a half hour of tire-smoking burnouts.
The point of all this is that it depends upon how you drive it. If you subject the drivetrain to a lot of shock loading (speed shifting, sidestepping the clutch, burnouts, etc.) stuff is gonna break, sooner or later.
Many people prefer automatics because they generally don't subject the drivetrain to the same kinds of shock loading.
IMHO, with the kind of horsepower and torque a V-8 makes, you really don't need a manual tranny. I'm sure, however, that many will disagree.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top Metalic Red 88 Formula, Silver 87 Coupe, Metalic Red "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
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11:59 AM
EdsB52 Member
Posts: 850 From: Tempe, Arizona, USA Registered: Jul 2000
"Hrm, not sure if I'm reading this right, but it sounds like you're saying a V8 fiero will run out of gears??"
No, not run out of gears, just run a too high an RPM even at civil speeds.
"The car is currently setup such that upon achiving redline in 5th gear, at the 6500rpm redline of both the LS1, and northstar, you are doing 195mph. (based on my car turning 3,000rpm at 90mph right now. well, not RIGHT now, yesterday ~ "
The 90 mph at 3,000 RPM is correct, but the 195 at 6,500 RPM may not be. I don't think you can just multiply the RPM and the speed proportionately and come out with an accurate figure. Correct me if I'm wrong.
"Yes, you make tradeoffs for performance, the best handling fieros are (in theroey, if you put a formula's springs in an 88 coupe for instance) the 4-cylinders!"
4 cylinder Fieros are the best handling Fieros not only in theory, but in practice and application.
"This kind of has gotten away from V8s, but yeah, if 195mph in a V8 Fiero is too slow for you, I deem you more insane than I!!"
195 is OK for school zones! What I'm trying to say is the LT-1 is designed to run at 2,000RPm all day. My LT-1 runs at 1,500-RPM @65MPH in 6th gear, and I can roll it on from there without lugging. To run at 3,000 RPM on a trip of even 20 miles would be uncomfortable. Even at 2,500 RPM the motor wants to jump through the roof. With the previously described gearing, my Camaro runs at 2,400 RPM @ 100MPH. Would you put a Harley motor and Suzuki GSXR tranny together? To me, putting an LT-1 and a getrag/Isuzu together is comparable. As far as sprint cars, they go really fast and are extremely quick. The reason the analogy, is that they generally have 1 gear and they run from 2,000RPm to redline around a track. Just a little analogy.
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12:16 PM
DRH Member
Posts: 2683 From: Onalaska, WI, USA Registered: Dec 1999
Any motor you attach to the same tranny/tire combination will turn the same RPM at a given speed. Unless your clutch is slipping the RPM/speed ratio in a gear is linear (ie: if 3000 RPM = 60 then 6000 = 120)
Ed, I still don't quite understand the problem here. How would a Northstar cruising at 2500-3000 RPM be any more comfortable than an LT1 cruising at the same RPM?
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12:42 PM
EdsB52 Member
Posts: 850 From: Tempe, Arizona, USA Registered: Jul 2000
"Any motor you attach to the same tranny/tire combination will turn the same RPM at a given speed. Unless your clutch is slipping the RPM/speed ratio in a gear is linear (ie: if 3000 RPM = 60 then 6000 = 120)"
I know I leveled that same argument many times (the former statement). You can hook up a jet engine to that transmission and it will still have to abide by the rules of the transmissions ratio. And as far 3000=60; 6000=120 goes, it makes logical sense but I think a buddy and me previously dispelled that. With a 10-speed bicycle you can apply that logic while in the same gear because you have 2 sprockets, but I think that may be different with automotive trannys running through several gears. I'm not a tranny expert so I could be wrong. But the primary point I'm making will follow.
"Ed, I still don't quite understand the problem here. How would a Northstar cruising at 2500-3000 RPM be any more comfortable than an LT1 cruising at the same RPM?"
Go back and look at the Harley motor bolted to a Suzuki GSXR transmission analogy. I think you guys skipped over it. Now, with the LT-1 or Northstar bolted to either transmissions, we don't have the disparity that would be noticed with the Harley motor/GSXR tranny, but I think it's more than negligible. Ask yourselves these questions; does a diesel engine run over 3,000RPM? Can a GSXR run at 14,000RPM? Can a GSXR produce power at 1,500RPM? What you will arrive at when you understand what I'm relating is that the correlation of engine RPM capability and comfort ability (not passengers but engine) depends upon the design of the engine. Stroke (through rod length, crank throw, and piston pin location), camshaft selection, composition of engine internals, type of fuel used, type of aspiration, 2 or 4 stroke design, valve size or arrangement, valve spring design or resistance, compression ratio, and probably many other attributes define if an engine is going to produce low RPM torque, high RPM HP, or somewhere in-between. So, do you think the LT-1 produces power (HP and torque) the same way the Northstar does? By the above-posted graph, you can see the LT-1 produces the same HP and torque at a measurably lower RPM than does the Northstar, hence, will notice the insufficient gearing long before the Northstar. Why do you think GM went from a tiny transmission FD of .62 in 1993 to a miniscule transmission FD of .50 in 1994? They noticed a mismatch of gear ratio to engine design (assumption). They could have changed the camshaft profile, but realized they had a kick-ass motor and didn’t want to screw with it. The best way to understand what I’m talking about is to get in your 5speed Fiero and drive at 70MPH in 4th gear. That’s the phenomenon that you will realize when you attach a motor/transmission that are mismatched. You will be higher up the HP/torque curve than you need to be. Or hell, go drive an 84 Fiero at 70 MPH and you’ll see what I’m taking about. I’m not even the first guy to realize this mismatch. Bill’s Isuzu transmissions, one of the largest Isuzu guys in the nation said he gets calls from me fairly often regarding this issue, but no one has forked out the $1,500 for the new gear set. I hope this clears it up.
Originally posted by EdsB52: Bill’s Isuzu transmissions, one of the largest Isuzu guys in the nation said he gets calls from me fairly often regarding this issue, but no one has forked out the $1,500 for the new gear set.
Then quit calling him
I see what you're talking about, but wouldn't lowering the diff gear ratio just put more stress on the rest of the transmission? It would also put more load on the clutch too.
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07:10 PM
artherd Member
Posts: 4159 From: Petaluma, CA. USA Registered: Apr 2001
Ah, yeah, perhaps the gearing isn't perfect for an all-torque V8, but it's pretty good... At least it's not a honda gearbox, those things end up turning ~4krpms at like 85 :)
PS: you actually *can* extrapolate out speed vs engine rpm in top gear. the ratios all add up to a certin number that (so long as you stay in a given gear) is the TOTAL GEAR RATIO. from crank to tyres, and that's essentially perfectly liniar.
You can thusly figure car speed (or rather, tyre rotation speed, bigger tyres will change this) at any given crank RPM. It's one simple multiply is all!
Ed; have you yet driven an LT1 Fiero? I don't think you'll find you do a lot of "crusing" I'd describe it as more "Road Burning" :) :) Kindof the difference between a Harley and a Ducati 996. Both are V-twins of roughly a litre, but differ greatly in attitude after that.
quote
Originally posted by EdsB52: No, not run out of gears, just run a too high an RPM even at civil speeds.
The 90 mph at 3,000 RPM is correct, but the 195 at 6,500 RPM may not be. I don't think you can just multiply the RPM and the speed proportionately and come out with an accurate figure. Correct me if I'm wrong.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top Metalic Red 88 Formula, Silver 87 Coupe, Metalic Red "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
The bottom line is this: GM never intended to mate the Northstar or the LT1 to the Fiero's transmission. These pairings have been concieved through a hot rodding mentality that seeks to make the best of what is readily available. For the most part, it seems to work extrmemely well, but the fact that these set ups are not designed from scratch, from the gound up, and with the virutally unlimited resources of a GM, means that there will be a few compromises. Which compromises the enthisiast chooses to live with depends upon their individual preferences and needs. Even if someone had the funds to build or adapt a transaxle with six speeds and optimized gearing, there are probably better places to spend the money. The Getrag put the rpm at about 2500 at normal highway speeds...seems plenty lazy to me whether it be a v8, v6 or 4 cyl. My Trnas Am with the 400ci Pontiac V8 would turn almost 3500 rpm at the same speed. It was still going strong after 80k miles, so durability shouldn't be an issue either, especially considering improvements in metallurgy and lubricants over the last 20 years.
Using the program Cartest, I compared an LT1 with an 88 getrag to an LT1 with a Camaro 6 speed, everything else on the car being equal. (2690lb vehicle) Here are the written results. car 1 is with the Getrag 2 is with the 6 speed
Originally posted by Black88GT: IMHO stick with the tranny that came with the motor, unless you truly enjoy changing clutches every 5-10k miles. There is a reason why GM won't put a 5 speed to their current V6s (and it's not price for a change). Even if the tranny holds, the clutch won't.
BTW, don't be so quick to trust the people selling the product. Remember who needs to make the profit. I am sure Mobil's recommended oil change intervals are different from the car manufacturers.
Ridiculous. The Getrag is as strong as it is because GM never wanted to develop another manual transaxle. They don't currently offer manuals wih high power engines in transverse applications because they won't sell 100,000 of them, thus it isn't worth their time (according to the accountants, anyway) to develop and produce one.
If they can make a clutch to (almost ) hold 400 ftlbs of an LS6, then they can make a clutch to hold 275 ftlbs with a 3800 SC.
Back to the original topic:
How do you get a Northstar to turn to 8000 RPM?
Change the valve springs.
Cylinder Heads and cams can easily put the engine over 350 ftlbs. 350 ftlbs at 7500 RPM is 500 HP.
A 500 HP LT1 would have to produce 450 ftlbs of torque.
I think that a HI-PO Northstar would be more transmission safe than a HI-PO LT1.
