quote Originally posted by California Kid: [B][/B]

"EdsB52, my post was really intended for "rigdonhome", as he started this string, I didn't focus on your requirements."

So I can't constructively respond? Are you trying to sensor the written dialogue in this forum?

"To answer your concern about "rumble", I can tell you I don't have these conditions. I'm running a modified (cam, injectors, heads, intake system) L98 out of a '91 Vette with a 5spd Getrag. It's a torque monster that pulls hard in every gear to 6,200rpm (beyond 6,200 it starts to "nose over", max torque occurs around 5,600). Even though the engine is solid mounted to the cradle it doesn't transmit very much vibration into the chassis. Don't really know where you're coming from on the gear ratio, as I have found no problems in either city or highway driving, even the drive from LA to Detroit was very enjoyable."

By vibration I meant the RPM would be higher than it should be. You can isolate vibration in any machine. You don't know if your gear ratio is good or not, because you have nothing to compare it to. If you were presented a transmission with an appropriate ratio you might not like your current match.

"Know exactly what you're talking about on "flat torque" curve, still have an 85 Ninja ZX900 with GPZ Engine modified (9.65 et qtr)and my Fiero produces a very similiar aceleration feel. My '95 Ninja ZX7R is rpm hungry, can't let the tach fall below 6,500 or the torque falls down the well, above 6,500 "hold on!!"."

The 1985 ninja 900 stock was a do-do bike. It was ok for it's era, but soon after replaced by the GSXR's, which were in turn beat in the early 90's by all the rest. It's kind of like sports; no one gets to hold the reins forever. Actually, your ninja 750 has a ton of torque compared to GSXR's. 9.65 in the 1/4 mile? Hard to believe unless it's built to the max.

"Regarding your comment about the Fiero not being a "performance category" car, I'll only comment that with the proper modifications to drive train and suspension it will beat most of the competition up to $6 figures in cost, and your total investment is under $25k (really tricked out). The package is unbeatable for the price."

Are you saying a built Fiero will beat an Acura NSX? A built rambler is still a rambler. Acura NSX's have aluminum chassis and body panels, not to mention killer suspension and that motor with a 6-speed. They top at 170 stock and beat Camaros and mustangs on the way up. I agree that Fieros have great potential, but let's be realistic.

NSX? Chicken Feed!

Nah, I know it's an awesome car, but I think people get glorified images of exotics like the NSX because of their price tag. Line them up and you'll see that bang-for-the-buck a V8 Fiero will stomp it all around. Compare the numbers and then the price tag, and you'll see what I mean.

I'm used to stomping loads of high-dollar performance cars in my budget-built '78 Malibu and they always give the same argument... "Yeah, well it's still a '78 Malibu"... Yeah, well I still stomped his ass! Same will go with my V8 Fiero... NSX owners will still raise their noses, but it's probably just a way for them to feel better about the fact that they spent $50,000+ more than I did and just got their butts stomped!

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Scott Rigdon
1988 Fiero GT, Black, 5-speed
38,000 Original Miles!
Web Site: Story" TARGET=_blank rel="nofollow">http://www.RigdonHome.com/
Story of buying my Fiero: http://www.RigdonHome.com/cars/88_Fiero_GT/14_hours_in_a_fiero.htm

"...." Means i asked a question that was answered while I was typing the question.
I'm not taking sides, but I'm trying to find an answer.

quote Originally posted by EdsB52: I heard the tranny in the Camaro and Corvette are different. I guess you're saying the internals are the same and you're probably right. The ratios are different in 1993 to 1994 with the 6-speeds.

I know the ratios are different in 1993, but now, all T56's have the same gearing, Vettes Vipers, and F-bodies. That's why they changed it in 94.

quote "Here's a test for you to try. If you can find a place to do it. Get your Camaro going as fast as you can in 5th gear, then put it in 6th. You should notice that you will probably not go any faster. (I can't prove this myself since I neither have a place to run that fast, nor a F-body to do it in. But I heard that GM couldn't get their 3rd gen 6 speed test mule with a 502 in it to even pull in 6th past about the 170 or so they could get it in to in 5th.)" You're right. I can't test it cause I have that BS limiter that cuts me out at 110. But I'm sure it's wind resistance not gearing that prohibits more speed. The point I'm making is cruising at 80-90 on a trip; the gear ratios suck in the Isuzu/getrag with a high-torque engine.

A Camaro in 6th @ 90 is about 2300 right?
A Camaro with a Fiero Getrag's gearing in 5th @ 90 is about 3500. That's your point and I thought everyone saw that.

What was the ratio of the aftermarket gears for the isuzu that you were looking at?
Let me know and i'll give you the rpm's @ 90 and maybe a few other numbers.

[This message has been edited by Pontiaddict (edited 08-24-2001).]

quote Originally posted by EdsB52: Wait a minute, didn't you hide behind the veil of, "I didn't mention any names, so back to the discussion?" I see, that's reserved for you and only you... ...As I previously wrote, another member broke up the conversation with insults to stir the pot, and then you jump in to finish the deal. But I honestly understand Archie; you probably feel someone is attacking your product. I'm not, the fact that the LT-1 and the Isuzu/getrag don't make a good marriage isn't your fault, it’s the inherent fault of GM engineering. Have you heard of Gear Vendors? They make automatic transmission tailshaft adapters that modify the transmissions FD to compensate for shortcomings on GM's part. BTW, I'm not sold on the notion that the originator of this post isn't you or one of your boys. Just after I uncovered the relationship between FieroBritney and sjp777 this deal starts up. Ya.

Holy Fieros, this always happens with a long post like this!!! Please try not to forget the topic of the post... It's always a challenge, no matter what you do for a living or for fun, to put personal feelings aside in the name of constructive learning.

I'm the originator of the post, and I assure you I'm not part of any sinister plan nor any top-secret diabolical relationship intended to piss people off. I'm just some guy that really wants to know the differences between the swaps so I can make an informed decision when I do the swap myself. Feel free to visit my web site to see for yourself who I am or drop me an email...

If I were going to be someone's 'Boy', I am pretty sure there would be no shame in being 'Archie's Boy'...

Loosen up, people, life is short!!! What could be more fun than a discussion about V8 Fiero's??? This is the stuff I dreamed about as a Kid and now I'm able to live it!!!

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Scott Rigdon
1988 Fiero GT, Black, 5-speed
38,000 Original Miles!
Web Site: Story" TARGET=_blank rel="nofollow">http://www.RigdonHome.com/
Story of buying my Fiero: http://www.RigdonHome.com/cars/88_Fiero_GT/14_hours_in_a_fiero.htm

quote Originally posted by rigdonhome: [B][/B]

Sure, bang for the buck the Fiero wins, but outright winning, let's face it, the NSX wins. Remember, you may be beating the wimpy-ass driver more than the car. How many people that can afford to buy a newer NSX are the kind of thrashers that drive them to the limit, and how many are the pussy doctor type trying to live that legend vicariously? I was in California on the 14 between LA and the Antelope Valley in my Rambler when a Ferrari pulled up next to me. We rolled it on and my valves started to float at 120 when he realized I was out of juice. I could not believe at how he shot away from me leaving me there to watch his taillights. Now, an old Rambler isn't a good standard, but he didn't just creep away, he yanked away from a 120 cruise. I don't believe these 6 digit cars are a bunch of BS, they're real if the pussy that own them will drive them.

quote Originally posted by Pontiaddict: ..... [This message has been edited by Pontiaddict (edited 08-24-2001).]

What does that mean???

"....."

Are you Friend or Fo??? NSX owner or someone's 'Boy'... Part of a diabolical scheme to foil my diabolical scheme?

They're all out to get me... Quiet! They can hear you!!!

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Scott Rigdon
1988 Fiero GT, Black, 5-speed
38,000 Original Miles!
Web Site: Story" TARGET=_blank rel="nofollow">http://www.RigdonHome.com/
Story of buying my Fiero: http://www.RigdonHome.com/cars/88_Fiero_GT/14_hours_in_a_fiero.htm

See the part where I put the ... at for my answer.

Bringing this down just so it doesn't get missed.

What was the ratio of the aftermarket gears for the isuzu that you were looking at?
Let me know and I'll give you the rpm's @ 90 and maybe a few other numbers.

quote Originally posted by artherd: All I have to say is "Archie rules" You've been here before, with all the "it'll break" or "it'll not be good for some reason, mostly the reason is I want one and am jealous" Roger, I encourage you to take Archie up on his offer, it will answer just about every question you have *far* better than we ever could, and you'll get to meet 'THE MAN' himself!! Best! Ben. PS: once I get my Northstar working, you're welcome to come for a few sprints up the curvy roads here, assuming I ever get the dam thing past CA emmisions It'd give you the 'full picture' of all V8 fieros, but more importantly, we could *really* burn some rubber!!!

I actually have relatives near LA... Is this very far from you???

Are you in the middle of the swap, or have you started it at all? Do you have parts sitting around the garage we could stare at and giggle?

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Scott Rigdon
1988 Fiero GT, Black, 5-speed
38,000 Original Miles!
Web Site: http://www.RigdonHome.com/
Story of buying my Fiero: http://www.RigdonHome.com/cars/88_Fiero_GT/14_hours_in_a_fiero.htm

quote Originally posted by DRH: rigdonhome, You may have missed this in the fray here but FieroLT1 replied way back toward the top. He has a very informative website: ...

Yes, and I would've love to post more first hand/real-life/daily-driving experiences coming from someone that DOES own a Pontiac Fiero with an LT1. But... I get pi$$ed off to quickly. You see, there seems to be this pest around, polluting every post there's ever been in this forum regarding LT1s.
This pest's simple mind, only knows one topic; "gear ratios". Every time there is a question or concern about an LT1 in a Fiero he sees it as his duty and ultimate personal goal to turn it into a gear ratio discussion. Again, because that is the only thing he knows very little about. As soon as I smell his stench brought in by his posts, I have to go away.
It is sad to see an interesting topic, I think, such a Fieros and LT1s, being spoiled by someone with the IQ of a cucumber.
Someone who thinks having an F-body makes him as knowledgable as the all mighty.
Someone who thinks the only way out of a sticky situation is to start with personal attacks online.
Someone who thinks that calling names is alright, but cries like a girl when takes a spoonful of his own medicine.
I could go on and on and on... because I have been cooking this inside me for a loooooong time.
Every time I have gotten interested in a topic, he butts in and I have to go away. I had it with this pest!

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Winston Ojeda
88 Formula LT1
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
http://www.FieroLT1.com
Home of the Fiero LT1
wojeda@FieroLT1.com

NSXs are very nice cars... If I wanted to commute day-to-day in an exotic, that would be my choice hands down!!

A friend of mine and myself once swapped cars (his I belive is a '94 stick-shift. 5-speed, not a 6 which came later.) It was awesome, the 3.0 v6 really comes on at around 6,000 like a devil unleashed, there's lots of Honda's F1 knowhow up there...

However, the Fiero could easially turn with the NSX. Infact, my car had more grip in the turns I would say. (this was the silver car, with minor suspension tweaks, and only 16" tyres)

PS: this nameless friend also went through entire tyre sets in 10kmiles, neither he nor I drive like the proverbial "grandma jones" :)

I still want one. But I won't be trading my fiero in any time soon.

Yes, I am saying California Kid's car would whomp (that's the technical term :) all over this NSX like it was standing still, as would most properly done V8 Fieros.

They're pretty amazing cars.

Best!
Ben.

quote Originally posted by rigdonhome: NSX? Chicken Feed! Nah, I know it's an awesome car, but I think people get glorified images of exotics like the NSX because of their price tag. Line them up and you'll see that bang-for-the-buck a V8 Fiero will stomp it all around. Compare the numbers and then the price tag, and you'll see what I mean. I'm used to stomping loads of high-dollar performance cars in my budget-built '78 Malibu and they always give the same argument... "Yeah, well it's still a '78 Malibu"... Yeah, well I still stomped his ass! Same will go with my V8 Fiero... NSX owners will still raise their noses, but it's probably just a way for them to feel better about the fact that they spent $50,000+ more than I did and just got their butts stomped!

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top Metalic Red
88 Formula, Silver
87 Coupe, Metalic Red
"Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
-Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

quote Originally posted by EdsB52: Are the above inflammatory statements necessary? Would it make you happy for me to retort with some classic defamation of my own? You could then say, 'see, all Ed does is start trouble around here.' I think I know your motive for posting your insults, but will keep it to myself for the good of the forum. If you continue, I will retort and the forum may be in turmoil again.

Ok, not to be inflamitory, but do you think I'm worried about your retort? If you have something to say, say it. I thought you were being silly, and I said it. Don't act like you're going to threaten me with some written smack down that's gonna make me cry.

quote Now I will constructively answer your contentions. "Weight is negligible in a straight line race? Ok, if I have to explain why you're wrong there, you're beyond hope. Remember the old rule of thumb that every 100lbs is a .10sec in the 1/4 mile. Doesn't seem very negligible." The, what I see as obvious context with that statement is with streetcars. I don't think anyone here is going to run nitro in his or her Fiero and attempt to break records. If that were the case then let's all remove our interiors and spare tires. What we want is a cool streetcar that goes like hell, but is streetable. Besides, if 100lbs is an issue, then you reinforce my argument that an LT-1 isn't the best choice (match) for a Fiero. I think you would feel the 100lbs in the corners, especially since the weight is in the rear, but in a straight line the weight should be negligible.

Well, I'm obviously not going to convince you otherwise, but weight makes a difference in acceleration. It's anything but negligible. Are we all trying for record book runs? No. Do we want to get the best performance out of our cars? I would think so. From a weight standpoint the N* is a better engine, if you don't take into account the weight of the Caddy transmission. In a straight line, extra weight won't make the car handle worse, but extra weight will make it slower. Simple physics. Will you notice driving on the street? Probably not. But you're also not likely to notice the difference in a lot of mods people do to their cars unless you use a stopwatch.

quote "Indeed, the ratios aren't "perfectly" suited to the LT1, but SBC engines have been available with everything from a 2.73:1 to 4.33:1 final drive from the factory (and more, I'm sure)." Do you mean final drive or differential ratios? My 94 Camaro has a 6th gear transmission ratio of .50 and a differential ratio of 3.42, doesn't that give me a FD of 1.71? In order to get the final drive ratio you must first establish the transmission drive/overdrive ratio, establish the differential ratio, and then calculate, correct?

Gee, you're right. Final drive is the combination of transmission gear ratio and differential ratio. Yes, I meant final drive. My example was to show that small block Chevy engines have come with final drive ratios up to 4.33:1 from the factory (that would be a 4.33:1 differential ratio with a 1:1 transmission ratio), a far cry fromt he 1.71:1 final drive in your LT1. Different engines, true, but most of them have similar rpm ranges (typical SBC redline is between 5500 and 6200 rpm, at least for performance motors). So if the rev range is so similar, how can the factory offer such a wide range of ratios? Yes, I'm am talking about engines other than the LT1, but this is simply to illustrate a point.

quote "Cruising at 60mph at 2500rpm's instead of, say 1800 rpm's is virtually negligible to the engine." With a Honda, yes. But with an LT-1, no way. [snip] 700 RPM in an LT-1 is a big deal; in a Northstar, not quite as big a deal.

700 RPM is a big deal? Does that mean if you cruise at 1800rpm in 6th gear, that if you speed up to 2500rpm in 6th gear, you're now going too fast for the car? The deep overdrives in modern cars are for fuel ecomony, not because they NEED to be run that low. I'm simply trying to state that while, YOU may think a 2500rpm cruising speed is too fast for the engine, the engine doesn't care. You can cruise in an LT1 at 3500 rpm all day long without problems. Your gas mileage will suffer, but that's about it.

Ok, now if you've read all this and are getting ready to smack me down (oh no!), try to see the ONE point I've been trying to make. Your assertation that the gear ratios aren't suited to the LT1 are more your own personal preference than exceeding the engineerd limits of the engine. Can you not see that? And since it is your opinion, and you have a right to your opinion, just as I have a right to mine, I'll stop trying to convince you otherwise.

I can cite one personal example that may help. I used to own a 72 Trans Am with the 455 HO. A low-rpm torque monster if there ever was one. Even the HO version redlined at 5500rpm (non-HO versions relined at 5200). With a Turbo 400 transmission and the 3.23:1 rear end, my cruising rpm at 60 was around 2500rpm. One day I drove it from Raleigh to Durham in 2nd gear at about 60-65 mph (~3500rpm). The engine didn't care. It actually ran better after that because that cleared out some carbon build up that you can get in low rpm big blocks. Yes, I got about 4 mpg instead of the car's normal 8 mpg, but that was the only noticeable difference. This engine would have been very comfortable with a 1.71 final drive (and I might have gotten double-digit gas mileage too). But it ran just as well with the effect of about a 8:1 final drive (~2.5:1 2nd gear and a 3.23 rear end). This was not harmful to the engine.

[Edited for typos]

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 08-24-2001).]

All of my posting to this subject yesterday was done while being up 18hrs after 5 hrs sleep, so my answers were kind of fuzzy. Here is a cleaner version of what I was trying to say last night.

From 1994 to present all Production T-56's have had the same gearing. 94-present F-bodies and Vipers, and 1997 up Corvettes since they used ZF 6 speeds in their LT1 cars.

After finding an article on transmissions I was looking for yesterday, I can now say that I know why Borg Warner changed the gear ratios in 1994.
In 1993 2 different sets of 6 speed ratios were available.
(1) 3.36 2.07 1.35, 1.00 0.80 0.62 This trans had a 350lb/ft maximum torque rating.

(2) 2.97 2.07 1.43 1.00 0.80 0.62 with a 400lb/ft torque rating

In 1994, the 2.66 1.78 1.30 1.00 0.74 0.50 had a 450lb/ft torque rating in the Camaro engines. It had a 550lb/ft rating in he Viper. The Viper also has specially made gears. I don't know exactly what they did differently, but they are the same basic gears as the Camaro, probably held to better specs and cryogenically treated or something to strenghten them.
The Trans case on Vipers and LS1 powered cars are the same with the exception of the input shaft, Bellhousing, and the tailshaft and tailshaft housing.

The final drive ratio's changed in 1994 for the gas mileage and emission compliance. A V-8 engine running at 3500rpm burns more gas and creates more emissions. In 1994 the emission standards required by CARB and the U.S. government became stricter. Also in 1994 the "gas hog" fee was raised to a higher level. The same thing happened in 1987. The emission levels changed. To compensate for this (In Fiero terms) The 2.5L went to a DIS ignition and the V-6 was re-spec'd with a lower RPM/HP rating. Even though the V-6 actually didn't change.
The Vipers have played this game too. They spec the motor out at a lower RPM/HP raiting to aid in emission compliance.

quote Originally posted by EdsB52: Are you saying a built Fiero will beat an Acura NSX? A built rambler is still a rambler. Acura NSX's have aluminum chassis and body panels, not to mention killer suspension and that motor with a 6-speed. They top at 170 stock and beat Camaros and mustangs on the way up. I agree that Fieros have great potential, but let's be realistic.

Yep!!!!! I'm saying a built Fiero will whip any stock NSX. Dug up some info just for you.

1999 NSX Zanardi........California Kid '88
Weight: 2,970................2,800
Bhp: 290 @ 7,100..........400 @ 5,700
Torque: 224 @ 5,500.......380 @ 4,500
0 to 60: 4.8..................4.2
1/4 Mile: 13.2...............12.2
Lateral G's: 0.93.............1.17
Top Speed: 167..............165 plus ??
MPG: 17 city 24 hwy.........21 avg.
Price: $87,670............under $25,000

This isn't to say that the NSX isn't a sweet car, but I wouldn't be affraid to race one in any event. I wouldn't own one because like many of the other "performance cars" they cost more than I want to invest and the insurance is a killer!!! Hell....my car was developed by a guy who raced for Porsche, because he knew the potential of the 88 Fiero GT. Even if I have to replace my clutch disk's after 10,000 miles, I'm still looking at a big savings account compared to the other options of getting this type of performance in a car.

Just my two cents.

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 08-24-2001).]

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 08-24-2001).]

Bump

Hey Tom, I've *heard* that the rear spaceframe of the Fiero is so rigid as is that a strut tower brace would just be redundant. (there is a rather large section of rectangular formed steel just behind the struts that makes up the back of the trunk...) But then again this whole thread is about taking the Fiero way beyond it's factory specs :)

It would be intresting to see though, to:

a( Put one on and see of lateral G measurments increase? (dunno if they would even if there was an effect)

b) put one on, but *cut* it in half in the middle, leaving a 10mm gap or so. and place a video camera in the trunk looking at that gap (or take decklid off) and drive around very hard, see if the gap moves?

If you do find one that is really neat looking, let me know :)

I kind of like this setup, not the *LEAST* for those velocity stacks, mmM! (and I've a soft spot for 1960s mustangs :)

Best!
Ben.

quote Originally posted by California Kid: Ben, Car is an '88, be sure to use good "Urethane" bushings on all rear suspension mount points. Although I don't have one (and turn good cornering numbers), a rear strut tower brace (not expensive, about $120) may give you a little more "seat of the pants" feeling, hear it makes the rear end feel better ??? I might go with one just to make the rear compartment look more "trick/racey". I think QuarterMaster will give you all the dimensions of their parts, if you want to do a CAD work up. Good Luck on your project!!! Tom [/B]

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Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top Metalic Red
88 Formula, Silver
87 Coupe, Metalic Red
"Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
-Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

quote Originally posted by FieroLT1: Yes, and I would've love to post more first hand/real-life/daily-driving experiences coming from someone that DOES own a Pontiac Fiero with an LT1. .........

Well Winston, it's been more than 2 days..... it would appear that you have the floor.

Archie