Originally posted by Pontiaddict: Then quit calling him
I see what you're talking about, but wouldn't lowering the diff gear ratio just put more stress on the rest of the transmission? It would also put more load on the clutch too.
"Then quit calling him "
Oops! I meant from guys like me. Sorry.
You're probably right about the relocated stress. That doesn't remove the fact that the transmission ratios are insufficient though. Be nice to have a different transmision.
IP: Logged
09:07 PM
artherd Member
Posts: 4159 From: Petaluma, CA. USA Registered: Apr 2001
I can't wait to see what a fully reworked head by Chrfab will do with the 12:1 pistions and steel crank that the Wheel to Wheel guys did.
*each* of those mods is supposed to liberate another 90-100bhp or so...
PS: (for 8krpm you'll need new <solid> lifters too, but that's about it... Northstars rule!)
There's no reason a modern 4-valve aluminum engine should produce less than 100bhp/litre *reliably* when tuned properly, that puts the northstar at ~455bhp reliably (the block can take much more, this is undisputed. Internals might need stregenthening, eg new rods and crank, etc?)
How strong are the powdered metal stock rods? I know they are stronger than cast parts, but I am not familiar with their properties particuliarily in comparison to Fordged pieces. Then there's Ti rods of course.... :)
If GM would get off their butts and *use* the darn thing in something that's not a pimpmobile for grandparents, I think the Northstar could rappidly become the 'next' SBC.
It's actually redicously easy to hot-rod for a modern engine. I mean, play with the cam timing and you get another *50* hp?!
How cool is that?!?!
Best! Ben.
quote
Originally posted by Will: Back to the original topic: How do you get a Northstar to turn to 8000 RPM? Change the valve springs. Cylinder Heads and cams can easily put the engine over 350 ftlbs. 350 ftlbs at 7500 RPM is 500 HP.
A 500 HP LT1 would have to produce 450 ftlbs of torque.
I think that a HI-PO Northstar would be more transmission safe than a HI-PO LT1.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top Metalic Red 88 Formula, Silver 87 Coupe, Metalic Red "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
First, to some extent I think that all of the technical responses so far have provided excellent insight into the combination... However, I think there is a 'perceived' aspect that we haven't touched yet. Let me try to explain!
There are two basic types of high performance engines out there, speaking in a VERY general sense... 1) Torque Monsters that build mountains of torque at low rpm's. 2) High-revving engines that build their power (hp and torque) at high rpm's. As a result, there are two different types of driving enjoyment related to those available options.
If you've ever driven an LT1 Camaro, Firebird, or Vette, you know that it's a tire-burning Hulk that builds its power low in the rpm band and therefore that's where you end up driving it the most.
If you've ever driven a multivalve powerhouse like the 4.6L 32valve Cobra Mustang, you know it's a completely different animal. It has virtually no (yeah, I'm Stang-bashing here!) low end torque, but revving it to 7 grand gives you the adreniline rush you're looking for.
There are pro's and con's to both. In the past, most of my projects have been based on a SBC 400, and therefore I've enjoyed tremendous low-end torque for many, many years! However, I'm on a completely different path now with the Fiero, so I'm open to trying the other side of the coin...
So, here's my own opinion that I have developed from this thread...
Fiero owners probably fall into the category of the high-revving engines, since the stock V6 is more in this category than the torque monsters for sure. If you've learned to love cars by driving a stock Fiero, you've probalby developed a love for that kind of engine and the driving style that comes with it. Rev it high, and don't worry about running it at 3 grand all day.
If you grew up with massive torque like I have, you are far more used to running the engine in its lower rpm range, where it builds most of its power. Driving my V6 Fiero is completely different than any other vehicle I've owned.
My point is that I think that even though there isn't probably a significant difference between the two swaps (though I understand the concepts that many of you have put forth about the idiosyncracies of the different engine/trans combos) the different drivers of these different swaps have probably subconsciously related their own preferences to the swap and therefore have in some cases been surprised by the difference. In other words, if you like driving a high-revving engine and have learned to drive with such, you probably feel like there is something not quite right about the LT1 combo. Conversely, if you are used to torque monsters and swapped in a Northstar, you probably feel squeamish turning it 7,000 and might be frustrated by the need to turn it high rpm's to enjoy driving it. If you like the high revving engines and swapped in a Northstar then you probably think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. Same goes with the LT1... If you like torque monsters and did an LT1 swap, you probably also think it's the greatest!
My opinion is that the Northstar probably fits the personality of the Fiero a little better due to its being a high revving engine similar to the stock V6. However, if you like torque monsters then the change in the Fiero's personality is a welcome one. If you didn't consider these things before your swap you might have ended up with a combo that wasn't exactly what you expected, although still a Rock AND Roll car!!!
Does any of this make any sense, or does it all just sound like psychobabble? I guess I'm saying that I think you're all right, but may be seeing things differently than others because of your own personal experiences and loves, and therefore are having some trouble finding the right technical explanation for what you want to say. ???
I'm still maintaining that both swaps are awesome, and it's really a matter of preference. This thread has been great for giving me the info I need to decide what MY preference will be!
On the topic of linear gear ratios, the theoretical answer is yes, it is correct to say that if 3000=60 then 6000=120. However, in reality, there are a couple of factors that affect this theory significantly. With an auto trans, torque converter slippage can reduce the top speed significantly. (IF you don't have a lock-up converter, and maybe even then too.) This can be true of a manual too if the clutch slips. At 6,000 and 120mph there is a good chance your clutch is slipping and you don't know it. The other factor is tire expansion at very high speeds. The tire 'grows' and effectively has a larger diameter, making your car go FASTER than the calculation shows. This is difficult to factor in and changes significantly with different tires.
In general, this has been a GREAT thread and I've learned a LOAD so far! Thanks for all of the info so far and keep it coming! I check this several times a day to see if there's something new!
Feel free to argue any or all of the points I made above... They are mostly my opinions, except for the tire expansion and torque converter/clutch slippage stuff. That part you can probably find verification to confirm!
Cheers, Scott
------------------ Scott Rigdon 1988 Fiero GT, Black 5 speed 38,000 Original Miles! Cherry!
IP: Logged
09:23 PM
Jay Member
Posts: 1107 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: May 2000
rigdonhome, I agree totally. Either engine is cool. I have to disagree about one thing though. My Northstar has tons of low end torque. I got alot of get up and go low end. Maybe it's all in my mind but I can imagine having more low end torque, it's that snap your head back feeling out of the hole. Feels just right for me. Maybe that is the point of this thread. What is right for you. We can interject our opinions and experiences but ultimately, it is the guy building this thing in his garage that has to be happy. Let me tell you now, I'm happy with the Northstar.
On another note: Will, your flywheel, what are you using? Have you figured out what clutch you're going with? I may attempt the manual conversion this winter. May have someone who wants the automatic midified cradle. That is if I don't sell it. If anyone is interested my Northstar is for sale (If it goes to an enthusiast who will take care of it, and not some kid who will wrap himself around a pole!)
------------------ Jay 1986 Northstar GT www.members.home.net/jaygrande
At 65 mph my setup runs at 2300 RPM at 70 its 2500, at 85mph its 3000-3100 RPM. A getrag would have to be spinning at 7000 rpm to run at 195 mph with stock tires, but who is to say a northstar or Small Block could pull the fiero to that kind of rpms and drag.
Originally posted by rigdonhome: As a result, there are two different types of driving enjoyment related to those available options.
I also think the kind of driving you do would have an effect on which of the two you prefer. If most of your driving is in the city, especially with stop and go driving, torque is the rule. I enjoy the base 2.5 Duke because it has so much torque. Quite quite honestly I rarely have a need to get above 50 miles per hour, and have a light or stop sign or bumper traffic so often that 4th gear is a treat. Ergo, lower revs and the torque is what I prefer.
Some people commute back and forth and drive on expressways where 60 miles per hour will get you run over. Some may actually get to drive a nice twisty 2 lane route. For either of these a higher revving engine may be as much or more fun because you get the chance to "wind it out" more.
And I will question the categorization of the base 6 as a "high revving engine". Maybe I'm spoiled but isn't the redline on the 2.8 about 6400 rpm?? "High" would start about 8 grand in my mind -- but I could be wrong.
But I would think where and how you drive is also a determining factor in choice of low rev torque or high-rev horsepower.
IP: Logged
10:37 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Originally posted by Raydar: We have a Forum member who had a 383 stroker through a 4 speed Muncie (generally regarded as the strongest Fiero tranny) who split the case wide open after about a half hour of tire-smoking burnouts.
That would be Tina. And if I remember the post correctly, her 4-speed was an Isuzu out of a 4-cylinder car. I think Archie posted that. If I'm wrong, would Archie or Tina please correct me. Also, her tranny failed becaue the clutch assy. overheated and exploded. The tranny wasn't the initial point of failure.
IP: Logged
10:52 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Originally posted by Will: Cylinder Heads and cams can easily put the engine over 350 ftlbs. 350 ftlbs at 7500 RPM is 500 HP.
A 500 HP LT1 would have to produce 450 ftlbs of torque.
I think that a HI-PO Northstar would be more transmission safe than a HI-PO LT1.
If the N* is producing a peak of 350lb-ft of torque at 7500 rpm, you're gonna have crap for low rpm power. If that 350lb-ft @ 7500 rpm isn't the peak, then you're gonna be putting out more at lower rpms, and that actual torque peak will be where you're stressing the tranny the most.
That having been said, I agree with you that the N* would likely be easier on trannys than the LT1.
IP: Logged
10:57 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Originally posted by EdsB52: On the outset, I believe the LT-1 swap makes more sense. It produces more HP, is easier to work on, and would probably beat a Northstar Fiero while both in stock configuration. It's obviously a pushrod motor, which is inherently more reliable than a 4 cam motor. It's a bit heavier, but if you're going to striaght line race like most people do, the weight is negligible. The one element that ultimately makes the Northstar a better swap is the availability of transmissions and the matching to each engine. By the graphs, the Northstar doesn't mind reving as much as the LT-1. By owning a car with an LT-1, I can attest to the torque manufacturing capabilities of the LT-1 and so did GM. They established gear ratios that work well with the LT-1 from 94 on. The Isuzu and the Getrag both have approximately the same FD ratios, which are inappropriate for the LT-1. To me, the LT-1 with either transmission becomes a sprint car; fun to race, tough to daily drive. Just my opinions.
Ed, you're way too picky and just plain off your rocker on at least one point. Weight is negligible in a straight line race? Ok, if I have to explain why you're wrong there, you're beyond hope. Remember the old rule of thumb that every 100lbs is a .10sec in the 1/4 mile. Doesn't seem very negligible.
As for the gear ratios...get off that soap box, man. No one cares. I'm not disagreeing with you, in principle. Indeed, the ratios aren't "perfectly" suited to the LT1, but SBC engines have been available with everything from a 2.73:1 to 4.33:1 final drive from the factory (and more, I'm sure). Cruising at 60mph at 2500rpm's instead of, say 1800 rpm's is virtually negligible to the engine. Yes, you won't get as good of gas mileage, but that's about it. The only valid complaint I can think of with the Getrag ratios is that 1st gear is so tight as to not be of much use - you have to shift so soon. But saying an engine that makes power all the way to 6000 rpm's isn't comfortable at 2500-3000 rpm's is silly. The only people who will care about that are the ones who are primarily concerned with gas mileage. I defy you to show me a person who has built an LT1 Fiero for gas mileage.
Go ahead and flame me if you want, but to suggest that the range of acceptible gear ratios is so slim is silly. And you're being silly by beating that dead horse. All you've done is say, YOU wouldn't like it. Fine. Don't build one.
------------------ "God made us brothers. Prozac made us friends." :D
IP: Logged
11:08 PM
Aug 23rd, 2001
artherd Member
Posts: 4159 From: Petaluma, CA. USA Registered: Apr 2001
Hi Scott, I think you put it best below, this is like deciding which great bottle of wine you are going to buy... you'll be very happy with any of the 3 or 4 you pick, and it really just comes down to which one stirs your soul more for *whatever* reasons! :)
quote
Originally posted by rigdonhome: There are two basic types of high performance engines out there, speaking in a VERY general sense... 1) Torque Monsters that build mountains of torque at low rpm's. 2) High-revving engines that build their power (hp and torque) at high rpm's. As a result, there are two different types of driving enjoyment related to those available options.
Actually, I'd say there is a third type of engine. One that makes gobs of low-end torque, *and* keeps right on making it up to astronomical revs... look at the torque curve on a Northstar, I would hesitate to call any engine with over 220lb-feet on tap at *IDLE* (1,000rpm) 'torqueless' :)
To my tastebuds, the really great engines belong to this group, the engines that will pull like a locomotive from idle or below, and *then* keep on going, really screaming their heads off and make truely unholy power withought quiting right up to redline :) Again though, just my taste.
quote
My point is that I think that even though there isn't probably a significant difference between the two swaps (though I understand the concepts that many of you have put forth about the idiosyncracies of the different engine/trans combos) the different drivers of these different swaps have probably subconsciously related their own preferences to the swap...
I guess I'm saying that I think you're all right, but may be seeing things differently than others because of your own personal experiences and loves, and therefore are having some trouble finding the right technical explanation for what you want to say. ???
YES! Exactly!!! Thanks :)
quote
I'm still maintaining that both swaps are awesome, and it's really a matter of preference.
Absolutely :) You really can't go wrong with a V8 Fiero, talk about a winning combination!
quote
At 6,000 and 120mph (er, make that 180mhp in 5th :) there is a good chance your clutch is slipping and you don't know it. The other factor is tire expansion at very high speeds. The tire 'grows' and effectively has a larger diameter, making your car go FASTER than the calculation shows.
Well, first, I dearly hope there is no perminant slippage, or else you'll pull a "Tina" at 120+mph... ie, catastrophic and rapid failure. At those speeds, exlposive. (!!!)
Modern tyres should also not expand significantly (read, should not alter their contact patch greatly, which means at most a few milimeters of expansion) at their rated speeds. Advances like Kevlar/airamid Fibre plys and the like can keep tyres essentially *flat* at up to 198mph for road cars. You can buy these at your local tire shop (prolly special order though, grin :)
Heh, just had to 'argue' a big with the only part of your message you told me not go, grin!
Best!!! Ben.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top Metalic Red 88 Formula, Silver 87 Coupe, Metalic Red "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
Will, I meant FIERO clutches (yup, this is a Fiero forum, who woulda thought?!)
I have read in about 10 different mags that GM won't put a getrag up to the Grand Am GT because they don't think it can handle the power reliably. I specifically remember Car and Driver, the issue with the G/A GT when it first came out. They were saying too bad it doesn't have a 5 speed and mentioned what I said before. Thats a 200/225(?) Hp 3.4 keep in mind, not a 240/270 3800 S/C. Can't imagine on a 300+ Northstar.
There is a V8 guy here who said his clutches last 10k miles. The guy with the corvette emblems and the funny wing. He has said it in many posts about his clutch problems. Whats the response to that?
1) I definitely don't consider the N* a torqueless motor by any means... I think I may have been misleading earlier but I was basically trying to paint a picture of each motor having a 'personality' based on where and when it makes most of its power.
2) I also agree that it would be a stretch to call the stock 2.8 V6 a 'high revving' engine! Again my general plan was to put it in the same 'personality type' (though this too is a stretch) with the N* in that it tends to make more of its torque at highER rpm's vs. low rpm's. At least, I think between the two (LT1, N*) the stock 2.8's personality is closer to the N*, at least the way I drive... I rarely drive it below 3krpm's, but that's partly due to the fact that it won't idle below 2,500! (But that's a topic for another post! Still haven't taken the time to check the trouble codes...)
Cheers, Scott
------------------ Scott Rigdon 1988 Fiero GT, Black 5 speed 38,000 Original Miles! Cherry!
IP: Logged
02:50 AM
artherd Member
Posts: 4159 From: Petaluma, CA. USA Registered: Apr 2001
Hey man, you really need to do your homework, the guy with the corvette emblems is making well over 450bhp. How much over I am not sure, but his engine is huge, and not found in *any* pruduction car :)
Also he is uisng a Quartermaster dual-disc 7.25" racing solid metallic clutch. Not really comprable to a street type application with a single organic type disc material. These are not designed to wear a great deal, rather they're designed to *clamp* right now :) To be fair, Tom mentiones that he (or his car) has torn up at least 4 'normal' single disc clutches very quickly.
Still, to get 10,000miles out of a clutch in a **400hp** car is pretty darn impressive by any streatch of the imagination!!
As for why GM won't put a 5-speed in the Grand Am? Well, why won't they drop an LS1 and a 6-speed into a Catera? No way that will work, right?
(They do it, in Australia only... draw your own conclusions about the US market when GM's best sedans aren't even *offered for sale* here. I think we're too busy buying Azteks and Avalanches ;0)
quote
Originally posted by Black88GT: Will, I meant FIERO clutches (yup, this is a Fiero forum, who woulda thought?!)
I have read in about 10 different mags that GM won't put a getrag up to the Grand Am GT because they don't think it can handle the power reliably. I specifically remember Car and Driver, the issue with the G/A GT when it first came out. They were saying too bad it doesn't have a 5 speed and mentioned what I said before. Thats a 200/225(?) Hp 3.4 keep in mind, not a 240/270 3800 S/C. Can't imagine on a 300+ Northstar.
There is a V8 guy here who said his clutches last 10k miles. The guy with the corvette emblems and the funny wing. He has said it in many posts about his clutch problems. Whats the response to that?
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top Metalic Red 88 Formula, Silver 87 Coupe, Metalic Red "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
IP: Logged
01:52 PM
EdsB52 Member
Posts: 850 From: Tempe, Arizona, USA Registered: Jul 2000
Originally posted by Formula88: Ed, you're way too picky and just plain off your rocker on at least one point. Weight is negligible in a straight line race? Ok, if I have to explain why you're wrong there, you're beyond hope. Remember the old rule of thumb that every 100lbs is a .10sec in the 1/4 mile. Doesn't seem very negligible.
As for the gear ratios...get off that soap box, man. No one cares. I'm not disagreeing with you, in principle. Indeed, the ratios aren't "perfectly" suited to the LT1, but SBC engines have been available with everything from a 2.73:1 to 4.33:1 final drive from the factory (and more, I'm sure). Cruising at 60mph at 2500rpm's instead of, say 1800 rpm's is virtually negligible to the engine. Yes, you won't get as good of gas mileage, but that's about it. The only valid complaint I can think of with the Getrag ratios is that 1st gear is so tight as to not be of much use - you have to shift so soon. But saying an engine that makes power all the way to 6000 rpm's isn't comfortable at 2500-3000 rpm's is silly. The only people who will care about that are the ones who are primarily concerned with gas mileage. I defy you to show me a person who has built an LT1 Fiero for gas mileage.
Go ahead and flame me if you want, but to suggest that the range of acceptible gear ratios is so slim is silly. And you're being silly by beating that dead horse. All you've done is say, YOU wouldn't like it. Fine. Don't build one.
"Ed, you're way too picky and just plain off your rocker on at least one point.' "Ok, if I have to explain why you're wrong there, you're beyond hope." "As for the gear ratios...get off that soap box, man. No one cares." "All you've done is say, YOU wouldn't like it. Fine. Don't build one."
Are the above inflammatory statements necessary? Would it make you happy for me to retort with some classic defamation of my own? You could then say, 'see, all Ed does is start trouble around here.' I think I know your motive for posting your insults, but will keep it to myself for the good of the forum. If you continue, I will retort and the forum may be in turmoil again. Do you want that? Then quit the instigation. If you don't think your remarks aren't instigating, you're not being objective. This has been a really cool thread with lots of good information from some very insightful members. The guy (rigdonhome) initiated this thread for the purpose of deciding whether he wanted to do a SBC, Northstar, or ? for an engine swap. Many members have constructively posted opinions, facts, and data supporting all sides of various arguments, why pervert good intentions with bad faith. Telling the forum you think I'm off my rocker or beyond hope does nothing constructive for the forum, just attempts to tear it apart. Now I will constructively answer your contentions.
"Weight is negligible in a straight line race? Ok, if I have to explain why you're wrong there, you're beyond hope. Remember the old rule of thumb that every 100lbs is a .10sec in the 1/4 mile. Doesn't seem very negligible."
The, what I see as obvious context with that statement is with streetcars. I don't think anyone here is going to run nitro in his or her Fiero and attempt to break records. If that were the case then let's all remove our interiors and spare tires. What we want is a cool streetcar that goes like hell, but is streetable. Besides, if 100lbs is an issue, then you reinforce my argument that an LT-1 isn't the best choice (match) for a Fiero. I think you would feel the 100lbs in the corners, especially since the weight is in the rear, but in a straight line the weight should be negligible.
"As for the gear ratios...get off that soap box, man. No one cares."
If no one cares then why did Bill's Isuzu transmissions tell me they get calls like mine asking for different ratios?
"Indeed, the ratios aren't "perfectly" suited to the LT1, but SBC engines have been available with everything from a 2.73:1 to 4.33:1 final drive from the factory (and more, I'm sure)."
Do you mean final drive or differential ratios? My 94 Camaro has a 6th gear transmission ratio of .50 and a differential ratio of 3.42, doesn't that give me a FD of 1.71? In order to get the final drive ratio you must first establish the transmission drive/overdrive ratio, establish the differential ratio, and then calculate, correct?
"Cruising at 60mph at 2500rpm's instead of, say 1800 rpm's is virtually negligible to the engine."
With a Honda, yes. But with an LT-1, no way. I love torque more than HP because with proper gearing torque can translate into HP. The same works the other way around. I laugh when I hear these Harley guys talking about Jap race bikes not having torque. Try rapping a GSXR, Ninja, FZR, or CBR up to 10,000 - 12,000 RPM at a stop with it in first gear, and then drop the clutch. That isn't torque? With proper gearing, you can modify most engines’ production into another form of energy (torque to HP, HP to torque). 700 RPM in an LT-1 is a big deal; in a Northstar, not quite as big a deal. I'm not arguing pro Northstar, anti-LT-1, as I think the best powerplant for the Fiero with a getrag is the 3.4TDC. I'm just saying that between the two, the Northstar makes a better daily driver.
This is not an issue of gas mileage.
[This message has been edited by EdsB52 (edited 08-23-2001).]
IP: Logged
03:15 PM
DRH Member
Posts: 2683 From: Onalaska, WI, USA Registered: Dec 1999
HP and Torque are not 2 forms of energy. They are two different scales for measuring the same energy and are directly related.
HP = Torque X RPM / 5252
All peak HP really does is tell you where the torque curve starts dropping off faster than the increased RPM can compensate for it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but your concern for the LT1 seems to be that it would be "working to hard" at highway speeds. Look at it this way. Any engine (NS, LT1, 2.8 or even 2.5) will be producing the same HP (+ or - a little to compensate for weight differences in the engines themselves) in order to maintain a steady state speed in a given car with a given tranny and tires. If a 2.8 (or a 2.5) can live happily for 100,000+ in most cases doing that, I would expect an LT1 would consider it a walk in the park.
IP: Logged
03:46 PM
California Kid Member
Posts: 9541 From: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan Registered: Jul 2001
Let's see...."Daily Driver, Dependable, Low Maintaince (easy on wallet), Durable, Good gas mileage, and somewhat budget minded!!!
Based on everyone I've talked to, knowledge of engineering, stuff gathered from this forum, etc, etc. It's my opinion that you should consider the 3800 SC and get the "beefed" auto trans "Archie" talked about in one of his posts. Don't do any modifications to the 3800 SC to "hop it up". You'll have a fun, dependable car to drive.
If you want a real attention getter in either speed or show, it's going to cost you for every one of the performance catagories you mentioned. Not that this is bad, but you have to be able to afford it, and you won't want to use it as a daily driver because of your investment. Very rarely are "real" performance cars or show cars driven on the street daily are there are very good reasons for it.
Just my opinion!!!
[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 08-23-2001).]
IP: Logged
05:08 PM
EdsB52 Member
Posts: 850 From: Tempe, Arizona, USA Registered: Jul 2000
Originally posted by DRH: Ed, a couple of things here:
HP and Torque are not 2 forms of energy. They are two different scales for measuring the same energy and are directly related.
HP = Torque X RPM / 5252
All peak HP really does is tell you where the torque curve starts dropping off faster than the increased RPM can compensate for it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but your concern for the LT1 seems to be that it would be "working to hard" at highway speeds. Look at it this way. Any engine (NS, LT1, 2.8 or even 2.5) will be producing the same HP (+ or - a little to compensate for weight differences in the engines themselves) in order to maintain a steady state speed in a given car with a given tranny and tires. If a 2.8 (or a 2.5) can live happily for 100,000+ in most cases doing that, I would expect an LT1 would consider it a walk in the park.
"HP and Torque are not 2 forms of energy. They are two different scales for measuring the same energy and are directly related."
That's true. I sloppily stated my point. Both are mechanical energy and both rotating energy (in our application). Yes they are related, which I've never contested and have reinforced by arguing engines are designed with that trade-off in mind. So all you're contesting is that I referred to torque and HP as different forms of energy. True, I misstated that. I hope no one ever gigs me for splitting hairs again after that.
"Correct me if I'm wrong, but your concern for the LT1 seems to be that it would be "working to hard" at highway speeds."
My concern is not that the engine will be working too hard, but the opposite. It would be spinning too fast for a given demand, and I don't consider that working too hard. Working too hard would be putting the engine under extreme load or 'lugging' the engine. Again, drive your 5-speed Fiero around in 4th gear on the freeway and you'll have an example to what I'm referring.
"Any engine (NS, LT1, 2.8 or even 2.5) will be producing the same HP (+ or - a little to compensate for weight differences in the engines themselves) in order to maintain a steady state speed in a given car with a given tranny and tires. If a 2.8 (or a 2.5) can live happily for 100,000+ in most cases doing that, I would expect an LT1 would consider it a walk in the park."
You're saying any engine will produce the same HP to maintain the same speed in a given car with a given tranny and tires. What you're forgetting is the essence of this topic; gear ratios. The gear ratios determine where on the powerband the engine resides at a given speed. So with everything constant except final drive gearing (independent variable), the variable (dependant) would be the amount of HP and torque created as predicated by the gear ratio(s). That's where the LT-1 with the 6-speed is such a perfect match; the engine can reside at a low RPM while producing enough HP and torque to comfortably drive the car. Simple test; go drive any car on the freeway, drop it down to the next lowest gear from final overdrive, and see what it's like to drive an LT-1 equipped Fiero with the available drivetrains. My Camaro is about 800lbs heavier than an LT-1 Fiero I'm guessing. So an even steeper ratio would be in order due to less demand on acceleration or cruise. Instead, we have a shorter ratio than the 6-speed. Someone answer this question instead of constantly avoiding it; if the LT-1, 6-speed ratio on the 1993 Camaro was sufficient at .63, then why did GM steepen it up to .50 in 1994? Please don't answer with something about GM inner-politics, as the change actually improved performance, drivability, and economy. Some may contend it was to improve highway mileage, and that may be true in part, but it also improves the other two aforementioned attributes.
IP: Logged
05:21 PM
EdsB52 Member
Posts: 850 From: Tempe, Arizona, USA Registered: Jul 2000
Originally posted by California Kid: Let's see...."Daily Driver, Dependable, Low Maintaince (easy on wallet), Durable, Good gas mileage, and somewhat budget minded!!!
Based on everyone I've talked to, knowledge of engineering, stuff gathered from this forum, etc, etc. It's my opinion that you should consider the 3800 SC and get the "beefed" auto trans "Archie" talked about in one of his posts. Don't do any modifications to the 3800 SC to "hop it up". You'll have a fun, dependable car to drive.
If you want a real attention getter in either speed or show, it's going to cost you for every one of the performance catagories you mentioned. Not that this is bad, but you have to be able to afford it, and you won't want to use it as a daily driver because of your investment. Very rarely are "real" performance cars or show cars driven on the street daily are there are very good reasons for it.
Just my opinion!!!
[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 08-23-2001).]
No, I'm in no way budget minded. I just want something that's streetable. Something I can drive for 300 miles to Vegas and not come out missing a few cavities from the rumble. A 3.8SC was a consideration, but I could only find them from junkyards already removed with the proverbial "20,000" miles, or they had parts missing. I'm not afraid of maintenance or modifications. What I was alluding to was the mismatch of the LT-1 to a Fiero Isuzu or Getrag in any car due to the FD ratio. I like the LT-1 because of the torque production. To bring up a sport-bike analogy, Ninja's started to eat up the superbike class in the early 90's due to their flat torque band, whereas GSXR's had the most peaky powerband of all sportbikes. Low RPM torque is the most controllable of all types (measurements) of power created. With the Ninja's it was possible to roll on the throttle in the corners and not as much with other bikes. I love torque in respect to engines, it's just more difficult to gear.
"Very rarely are "real" performance cars or show cars driven on the street daily are there are very good reasons for it."
I don't think a Fiero with a SBC or Northstar would be considered into this category unless 10's of thousands of dollars were poured into it.
Originally posted by California Kid: Let's see...."Daily Driver, Dependable, Low Maintaince (easy on wallet), Durable, Good gas mileage, and somewhat budget minded!!!
...speed or show, it's going to cost you for every one of the performance catagories you mentioned. Not that this is bad, but you have to be able to afford it, and you won't want to use it as a daily driver because of your investment. Very rarely are "real" performance cars or show cars driven on the street daily are there are very good reasons for it.
Just my opinion!!!
[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 08-23-2001).]
I AM that very rare person that will drive his big investment every day on the street... I think cars are for driving, not sitting in the garage collecting dust!!! In fact, I love to watch people cringe when I do figure-8's in a car that has a show quality finish!
------------------ Scott Rigdon 1988 Fiero GT, Black 5 speed 38,000 Original Miles! Cherry!
IP: Logged
06:54 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
You don't know what you just got yourself into! I'll definitely take you up on that offer! I haven't had a ride in a V8 Fiero yet!!! I have a buddy in Chicago that I need to visit anyway!!! How about some weekend in September?
Cheers, Scott
------------------ Scott Rigdon 1988 Fiero GT, Black 5 speed 38,000 Original Miles! Cherry!
IP: Logged
07:09 PM
PFF
System Bot
EdsB52 Member
Posts: 850 From: Tempe, Arizona, USA Registered: Jul 2000
I'll agree a 6 speed transaxle would be nice if one existed. I'll agree you could probably play around with gear sets and come up with something to lower the RPMs in 5th (Be careful though, GM didn't use 6 gears instead of 5 just for the heck of it).
BUT... With a comparable mounting and exhaust system and the same tranny in a Fiero, I doubt if you would be able to tell if it had a NS or LT1 back there just by cruising at 70 or 80.
I remember hearing something about in 1996 The Corvette Grand Sport engine is a LT3 engine, and apparently these produce more power, I have no facts to back this up, I just remember somebodey telling me this when I told them I was interested in doing a V8 engine swap, I think something like a LT3 might be worth looking into, there should be more availability
IP: Logged
08:29 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
Originally posted by EdsB52: Oh, sphincter's back again. Remember, you started it. .]
I made no reference to you Eddie.....do you think every thread and every comment is about you?
You've made several long posts expressing your opinion (several times, everybody has heard it, yadda, yadda, yadda) on this thread. I've posted one line telling rigdonhome to come see for himself and you call me a name?!?!
Now I'd like to address your sphincter statement...... Ummmmmm let me use your own words....."Are the above inflammatory statements necessary? Would it make you happy for me to retort with some classic defamation of my own? You could then say, 'see, all "he" does is start trouble around here.' I think I know your motive for posting your insults, but will keep it to myself for the good of the forum. If you continue, I will retort and the forum.. yadda.. yadda.. yadda.."
Ok, I see now....Eddie doesn't want others to call him names but he can dish it out anytime he wants.
Eddie-boy, you were big time wrong here to call me names and now you need to write another marathon statement analizing every word that has been written and the implications of all the repercussions of all the above messages and how they have hurt your feelings and made you want to cry.
Archie
IP: Logged
08:41 PM
EdsB52 Member
Posts: 850 From: Tempe, Arizona, USA Registered: Jul 2000
Originally posted by Archie: I made no reference to you Eddie.....do you think every thread and every comment is about you?
You've made several long posts expressing your opinion (several times, everybody has heard it, yadda, yadda, yadda) on this thread. I've posted one line telling rigdonhome to come see for himself and you call me a name?!?!
Now I'd like to address your sphincter statement...... Ummmmmm let me use your own words....."Are the above inflammatory statements necessary? Would it make you happy for me to retort with some classic defamation of my own? You could then say, 'see, all "he" does is start trouble around here.' I think I know your motive for posting your insults, but will keep it to myself for the good of the forum. If you continue, I will retort and the forum.. yadda.. yadda.. yadda.."
Ok, I see now....Eddie doesn't want others to call him names but he can dish it out anytime he wants.
Eddie-boy, you were big time wrong here to call me names and now you need to write another marathon statement analizing every word that has been written and the implications of all the repercussions of all the above messages and how they have hurt your feelings and made you want to cry.
Archie
"I made no reference to you Eddie.....do you think every thread and every comment is about you?"
I made no reference to either Archie, did I mention your name?
"I've posted one line telling rigdonhome to come see for himself and you call me a name?!?!"
Who was this about?
"rigdonhome, After you get done with having all this hot air blown up your skirt, drive up to Chicago and I'll show you just how wrong some people are. Until then watch out for the
Archie"
Of course this wasn't about me and my post wasn't about you, so we're just fine, right?
IP: Logged
09:22 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
You don't know what you just got yourself into! I'll definitely take you up on that offer! I haven't had a ride in a V8 Fiero yet!!! I have a buddy in Chicago that I need to visit anyway!!! How about some weekend in September?
Cheers, Scott
You are welcome to come up anytime I'm in town for the weekend. Right now the only weekends that I won't be available are when I'm at Fierorama Sept 9th and the last 2 weekends of Sept. (vacation).
We'll go for rides in 2 or 3 5 speed V-8 cars and you'll find out that your teeth won't rattle out at 80 in 5th gear, even on Chicago area highways. You'll also find out that there is nothing wrong with driving a V-8 Fiero 5 speed at highway speeds as long as you want. You'll also find out that the only people who complain about gearing, weight or handling of a V-8 Fiero are those who have never driven one. While some of my best freinds drive 2.8, 3.1 or 3.4 Fieros, you'll find out that some owners keep searching for a "down-side" on V-8 Fieros so that they can feel better about their decission to settle for less.
I may have my Drag Fiero running by the time you get here. It isn't street legal (no headlights etc.) but, if the streets are dry, I'll put the dealer plate on it and we'll take it for a little test run.
By the time you leave here, you will have seen the light.
I'll try to get up there in September... I might come up on a Friday night, stay with my buddy overnight, then spend as much time at your place on Saturday as you can tolerate me!!! I'll try to make a plan this week!
Originally posted by EdsB52: Of course this wasn't about me and my post wasn't about you, so we're just fine, right?
Your right Eddie, you must have been calling someone else names. But then, no matter who you were talking to, the following statement would still apply .... "Are the above inflammatory statements necessary? Would it make you happy for me to retort with some classic defamation of my own? You could then say, 'see, all "he" does is start trouble around here.' I think I know your motive for posting your insults, but will keep it to myself for the good of the forum. If you continue, I will retort and the forum.. yadda.. yadda.. yadda.."
You were the first one to call someone names and it proves that you have no class. Tell us why you interrupted this discussion to call some un-named person names.
Ok, well Eddie, don't let me interrupt you.... tell us once again about your 1994 LT1 Camaro.... OH, and please, please, please tell us again & again & again about all the gear ratio stuff etc.
I just can't wait.
Archie
IP: Logged
10:23 PM
Aug 24th, 2001
California Kid Member
Posts: 9541 From: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan Registered: Jul 2001
Originally posted by EdsB52: I just want something that's streetable. Something I can drive for 300 miles to Vegas and not come out missing a few cavities from the rumble. What I was alluding to was the mismatch of the LT-1 to a Fiero Isuzu or Getrag in any car due to the FD ratio. I like the LT-1 because of the torque production. To bring up a sport-bike analogy, Ninja's started to eat up the superbike class in the early 90's due to their flat torque band, whereas GSXR's had the most peaky powerband of all sportbikes. Low RPM torque is the most controllable of all types (measurements) of power created. With the Ninja's it was possible to roll on the throttle in the corners and not as much with other bikes. I love torque in respect to engines, it's just more difficult to gear.
I don't think a Fiero with a SBC or Northstar would be considered into this category unless 10's of thousands of dollars were poured into it.
EdsB52, my post was really intended for "rigdonhome", as he started this string, I didn't focus on your requirements.
To answer your concern about "rumble", I can tell you I don't have these conditions. I'm running a modified (cam, injectors, heads, intake system) L98 out of a '91 Vette with a 5spd Getrag. It's a torque monster that pulls hard in every gear to 6,200rpm (beyond 6,200 it starts to "nose over", max torque occurs around 4,500). Even though the engine is solid mounted to the cradle it doesn't transmit very much vibration into the chassis. Don't really know where you're coming from on the gear ratio, as I have found no problems in either city or highway driving, even the drive from LA to Detroit was very enjoyable.
Know exactly what you're talking about on "flat torque" curve, still have an 85 Ninja ZX900 with GPZ Engine modified (9.65 et qtr)and my Fiero produces a very similiar aceleration feel. My '95 Ninja ZX7R is rpm hungry, can't let the tach fall below 6,500 or the torque falls down the well, above 6,500 "hold on!!".
Regarding your comment about the Fiero not being a "performance category" car, I'll only comment that with the proper modifications to drive train and suspension it will beat most of the competition up to $6 figures in cost, and your total investment is under $25k (really tricked out). The package is unbeatable for the price.
[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 08-24-2001).]
IP: Logged
12:17 AM
DRH Member
Posts: 2683 From: Onalaska, WI, USA Registered: Dec 1999
You may have missed this in the fray here but FieroLT1 replied way back toward the top. He has a very informative website: www.fierolt1.com. He's also in Milwaukee... not THAT far from Chicago.
I think everyone in this topic completely forgot the BEST V-8 motor for the Fiero.
That would be the one Callaway puts in their Corvettes. (small block Chevy with four-cam 32-valve aluminum heads, aproximately 600 H.P., and 550 ft/lbs torque)
That motor would completely embarass any of the other motors you guys mentioned.
Of course, You would have to convince Callaway to sell you one. (or try to steal a Callaway Corvette for the motor. Heh heh)
Hey man, you really need to do your homework, the guy with the corvette emblems is making well over 450bhp.
to get 10,000miles out of a clutch in a **400hp** car is pretty darn impressive by any streatch of the imagination!!
As for why GM won't put a 5-speed in the Grand Am? Well, why won't they drop an LS1 and a 6-speed into a Catera? No way that will work, right?
First off, why do I "need to do my homework?" When did I mention California Kid's Hp output? I said "V8 guy" Was I wrong? It's a V8 right?
Chevy has made the LT5 which has 385 Hp and the new 405 hp LS1 in the '02 Z06, both of which do not need clutch replacements every 10k miles.
I'm not saying a 5 speed Grand Am won't work. I am saying that GM questions reliability which is why they won't do it. See, GM is a business that can't afford to replace tranny's before the warranty runs out. Questioning reliability on a 3.4 that is, not a SBC.
IP: Logged
12:42 AM
California Kid Member
Posts: 9541 From: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan Registered: Jul 2001
Originally posted by shark93726: I think everyone in this topic completely forgot the BEST V-8 motor for the Fiero.
That would be the one Callaway puts in their Corvettes. (small block Chevy with four-cam 32-valve aluminum heads, aproximately 600 H.P., and 550 ft/lbs torque)
That motor would completely embarass any of the other motors you guys mentioned.
Of course, You would have to convince Callaway to sell you one. (or try to steal a Callaway Corvette for the motor. Heh heh)
Gerald Storvik
Wrong!!!! There isn't a transverse trans that will hold the power and torque!!! Even if there was, you have to have custom half shafts made special for the same reason.
Originally posted by EdsB52: Simple test; go drive any car on the freeway, drop it down to the next lowest gear from final overdrive, and see what it's like to drive an LT-1 equipped Fiero with the available drivetrains. My Camaro is about 800lbs heavier than an LT-1 Fiero I'm guessing. So an even steeper ratio would be in order due to less demand on acceleration or cruise. Instead, we have a shorter ratio than the 6-speed. Someone answer this question instead of constantly avoiding it; if the LT-1, 6-speed ratio on the 1993 Camaro was sufficient at .63, then why did GM steepen it up to .50 in 1994? Please don't answer with something about GM inner-politics, as the change actually improved performance, drivability, and economy. Some may contend it was to improve highway mileage, and that may be true in part, but it also improves the other two aforementioned attributes.
It was so Tremec (I'm not 100% sure on when, but Tremec took over building the T-56 from Borg warner) didn't have to make another transmission with different gears. They use the same transmission gears in the F-body, Corvette and Viper. (although with different trans cases) It also happens that the now higher first gear ratio (not that it has anything to do with the od gear) Increased the torque rating of the trans.
Here's a test for you to try. If you can find a place to do it. Get your Camaro going as fast as you can in 5th gear, then put it in 6th. You should notice that you will probably not go any faster. (I can't prove this myself since I neither have a place to run that fast, nor a F-body to do it in. But I heard that GM couldn't get their 3rd gen 6 speed test mule with a 502 in it to even pull in 6th past about the 170 or so they could get it in to in 5th.)
IP: Logged
01:29 AM
California Kid Member
Posts: 9541 From: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan Registered: Jul 2001
Originally posted by artherd: the guy with the corvette emblems is making well over 450bhp.
Just thought I'd add a little to your note Artherd.
Clarification: estimated to be 400 to 420bhp.
Also he is useing a QuarterMaster dual-disk 7.25" solid plate organic racing clutch disk's w/steel floater plate in between. Not really comparable to a street type application with a single organic type disc material. These are not designed to wear a great deal (very thin organic friction compound holds less heat), rather they're designed to *clamp* right now To be fair, Tom mentiones that he (or his car) has torn up at least 4 'normal' single disc clutches very quickly.
Clarification: All clutch disks tried between 1993 and 1997 were Top Brand High Performance Clutch Disks available at that time (Centerforce just to mention one).
Still, to get 10,000miles out of a clutch in a **400hp** car is pretty darn impressive by any stretch of the imagination!!
Food for Thought: Something to think about or investigate would be to determine if a 3 disk setup will work. In my talks with Keith Huff (Fiero Motorsports) he explained that they started with the 3 disk setup from QuarterMaster and it would not package as the spline on trans wasn't machine back far enough to accept all three disks. Keith as well as my mechanic feel that if someone were to machine the "toothed" spline back just a little further the three disk with two floater plates would package. In order to do this properly, you need a "scrap trans" and cut a window in the bell housing to trial and fit. The addition off another disk would greatly improve the durability (mileage life), and also lend itself to even more horsepower. QuarterMaster 3 disk setups are commonly used in "Circle Track and NASCAR" Racing, as well as high end professional drag cars.
The limiting factor is not so much the gears in the trans, but the fact that the Getrag Bell Housing will not accept large diameter clutch disks. For horse power above 250 all Car Makers are using big bell housing transmissions with a large diameter disk with very large surface area of friction material.
IP: Logged
01:58 AM
artherd Member
Posts: 4159 From: Petaluma, CA. USA Registered: Apr 2001
You've been here before, with all the "it'll break" or "it'll not be good for some reason, mostly the reason is I want one and am jealous" :)
Roger, I encourage you to take Archie up on his offer, it will answer just about every question you have *far* better than we ever could, and you'll get to meet 'THE MAN' himself!!
Best! Ben.
PS: once I get my Northstar working, you're welcome to come for a few sprints up the curvy roads here, assuming I ever get the dam thing past CA emmisions :) It'd give you the 'full picture' of all V8 fieros, but more importantly, we could *really* burn some rubber!!!
quote
Originally posted by Archie: You'll also find out that the only people who complain about gearing, weight or handling of a V-8 Fiero are those who have never driven one.... ...you'll find out that some owners keep searching for a "down-side" on V-8 Fieros so that they can feel better about their decission to settle for less. I may have my Drag Fiero running by the time you get here. It isn't street legal (no headlights etc.) but, if the streets are dry, I'll put the dealer plate on it and we'll take it for a little test run.
Archie
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top Metalic Red 88 Formula, Silver 87 Coupe, Metalic Red "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
IP: Logged
02:11 AM
EdsB52 Member
Posts: 850 From: Tempe, Arizona, USA Registered: Jul 2000
I'll try to get up there in September... I might come up on a Friday night, stay with my buddy overnight, then spend as much time at your place on Saturday as you can tolerate me!!! I'll try to make a plan this week!
Cheers, Scott
This forum was in disarray because of previous dealings with Archie and me, so I'll take it to private email to avoid any harm to the peace of the forum.
IP: Logged
02:14 AM
artherd Member
Posts: 4159 From: Petaluma, CA. USA Registered: Apr 2001
Hi Tom, thanks, best to hear it all from the source :) (as I only *wish* I've had the pleasure of driving your car!! :)
Hrm, a tripple disc would be intresting indeed... the tri-disc 7.25" is the biggest clutch quartermaster makes...
I might think about this for the second car (the ttop, 'silver' gets the first motor :) as I'm planing on using quartermaster's Hydraulic TO bearing in lieu of the more complicated stock arm/fork/bearing setup.
If I could get ahold of all the parts (and get acurate enough measurments of them) then I could skip the bellhousing-sight-hole, with access to any sophisticated CAD package you can determine if there will be interfearance (assume worst case for things like spring compression==none, etc.)
Hrmnmm.... I love your posts, always give me *evil* ideas :) :)
PS: thanks for answering another question I had about your setup, it IS solid mounted! (hey, is your car an 88 too? or does it have cradle bushings? (88s have solid mounted cradles.) I ask as you have solid everything, which I'm thinking about, but a little nervous about driveline loading. No slicks though, and I don't do insane clutch dumps in 4th (at least, not anymore, lol.)
I know, I should just shaddup and build the darn car with all the good bits and see, and decide, for meself <grin> I will! I promise!!
Best! Ben.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top Metalic Red 88 Formula, Silver 87 Coupe, Metalic Red "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
IP: Logged
02:25 AM
EdsB52 Member
Posts: 850 From: Tempe, Arizona, USA Registered: Jul 2000
Originally posted by Archie: Your right Eddie, you must have been calling someone else names. But then, no matter who you were talking to, the following statement would still apply .... "Are the above inflammatory statements necessary? Would it make you happy for me to retort with some classic defamation of my own? You could then say, 'see, all "he" does is start trouble around here.' I think I know your motive for posting your insults, but will keep it to myself for the good of the forum. If you continue, I will retort and the forum.. yadda.. yadda.. yadda.."
You were the first one to call someone names and it proves that you have no class. Tell us why you interrupted this discussion to call some un-named person names.
Ok, well Eddie, don't let me interrupt you.... tell us once again about your 1994 LT1 Camaro.... OH, and please, please, please tell us again & again & again about all the gear ratio stuff etc.
I just can't wait.
Archie
Wait a minute, didn't you hide behind the veil of, "I didn't mention any names, so back to the discussion?" I see, that's reserved for you and only you.
Right, and this isn't defamatory or classified as name-calling?
"rigdonhome, After you get done with having all this hot air blown up your skirt, drive up to Chicago and I'll show you just how wrong some people are. Until then watch out for the (BS)
Archie"
Air blown up your skirt, I'll show you how wrong people are, and watch out for the BS. And uh, interupted the discusion? There was a contingency of people discussing many things relevant to the substantive attributes of the engines until you piped in to distract from the obvious; the getrag and Isuzu are mismatched for the enormous torque created by the LT-1. They work better with engines that want to rev up a little more. But of course you must disrupt our conversation with your quick one-line insults about people being full of hot air. BTW, who were you talking about there? I'll bet you don't answer; it goes with your character (or lack of).
"You were the first one to call someone names and it proves that you have no class. Tell us why you interrupted this discussion to call some un-named person names."
As I previously wrote, another member broke up the conversation with insults to stir the pot, and then you jump in to finish the deal. But I honestly understand Archie; you probably feel someone is attacking your product. I'm not, the fact that the LT-1 and the Isuzu/getrag don't make a good marriage isn't your fault, it’s the inherent fault of GM engineering. Have you heard of Gear Vendors? They make automatic transmission tailshaft adapters that modify the transmissions FD to compensate for shortcomings on GM's part. BTW, I'm not sold on the notion that the originator of this post isn't you or one of your boys. Just after I uncovered the relationship between FieroBritney and sjp777 this deal starts up. Ya.
