Archie, since you deem to put out bad vibes, I'll tell you how it is.
Ist: You dealt with the manufacturer of this clutch and you ordered it from him, you need to talk to him about it.
2nd: It took you over a year to install it.
3rd: You were told specifically that you needed to break it in. YOU DID NOT:
4th: It took you over a year to pay for it, after being asked several times about the bill.
Stop being a cry baby and cal Robin and discuss this with him and get it straightened out.
Good Luck.

------------------

If I'm reading Archie's previous posts correctly, he's contacted "Robbie" and is still waiting for a reply.

Man, have you ever seen such a terminal case of "It's not my fault" anywhere?

Too many people just trying to CYA rather than solve the problem. Here's hoping it gets resolved to everyone's satisfaction.

I've been using a Centerforce DF for over a year now on my 3.2, and it has held up great. The pedal is much lighter, and probably will extend the life of your clutch hydraulics because there's less pressure under your left foot. I've never tried Fieroshop's clutch. Even though they may sell some quality aftermarket parts, (4 puch clutch not included) their general attitude on this forum encourages me to look elsewhere for the parts I need.

quote Originally posted by fieroshop: Archie, since you deem to put out bad vibes, I'll tell you how it is. Ist: You dealt with the manufacturer of this clutch and you ordered it from him, you need to talk to him about it. 2nd: It took you over a year to install it. 3rd: You were told specifically that you needed to break it in. YOU DID NOT: 4th: It took you over a year to pay for it, after being asked several times about the bill. Stop being a cry baby and cal Robin and discuss this with him and get it straightened out. Good Luck.

I'll tell you what "bad vibes" is.

"bad vibes" is a person who tells the whole Fiero world "Here is what my new kevlar clutch specially designed for the V8 Fiero conversions." as you stated in https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20001206-1-002192.html Then claims he had nothing to do with that clutch.

"bad vibes" is a person who also tells the world that his clutch has "... the ability to withstand up to aprox. 450 hp. Where can you get this clutch you ask, well thru me since this is built specially for the Fiero Shop."

"bad vibes" is the vendor who makes guarantees that "if your old Fiero clutch lasted 40,000 miles, then this clutch will last 80,000 miles".

"bad vibes" is the vendor who edits his web site to remove all promises of warrantees & guarantees after a problem is exposed.

"bad vibes" is the vendor who always tries to find someone else to blame. I'm sure there are others but so far, everytime you get in trouble, you send another friend to the chopping block. You did it too John Szpara, you left TGOwens out to dry and now you would sacrafice Robin. When are you going to run out of people to throw to the lions? & take responsibility for your own business?

I've probally installed more clutches than you've seen, you can bet I know how to break in a clutch. When dealing with some rookie, You may be able to worm out of your responsibility by deferring blame for a failure on the customer, but you won't get away with that here.

I bought the clutch from YOU, I relied on all the warrantees & guarantees made by YOU, I paid my money to YOU, I made my initial complaint to YOU off list, I have recieved nothing from YOU except lip service.

I'd suggest you "stop being a cry baby" and honor the warrantees & guarantees that were made by YOU.

I'm requesting and demanding satisfaction from YOU. As the owner of the Fiero Shop, you are the responsible party.

I'd suggest you take care of this customer right away, because I can guarantee that he's not going to give up until you take responsibility and honor your own warrantees & guarantees.

Archie

Well George...... it's been 21 days and still no answer from you to indicate that you intend to honor your Warrantees & Guarantees.

I guess it's time to post up a few pics. of the burn marks on that clutch you sold me.

Archie

quote Originally posted by Archie: Well George...... it's been 21 days and still no answer from you to indicate that you intend to honor your Warrantees & Guarantees. I guess it's time to post up a few pics. of the burn marks on that clutch you sold me. Archie

Let's see 'em Archie. I'm curious.

I'm also interested in this thread as I NEED
a new clutch myownself-see my thread keep
us posted archie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

archie, I think its time to start a new thread like -buyer beware- or -got screwed by a vendor- Im sure there's lots of members not reading this that should know how the fiero shop treats their customers.

I've got a vendor on my list,that sold me a,you guessed it,a funky clutch! But I vowed to myself not get too specific until I'd actually threatened contacting the Attorney General in that particular state,now if they'd only answer the darn phone so I could tell them that...
Every once in awhile we trust others over our own instincts,and sometimes it does cost,unfortunately there's always someone out there just to make a buck who everlooks the underlying principles of being in business.

quote Originally posted by fieroshop: Archie, since you deem to put out bad vibes, I'll tell you how it is. Ist: You dealt with the manufacturer of this clutch and you ordered it from him, you need to talk to him about it. 2nd: It took you over a year to install it. 3rd: You were told specifically that you needed to break it in. YOU DID NOT: 4th: It took you over a year to pay for it, after being asked several times about the bill. Stop being a cry baby and cal Robin and discuss this with him and get it straightened out. Good Luck.

This clutch was also made by the manufactuere for Archie and he and the manufacturer were doing the discussions.
Granted that Archie and the manufacturer of this clutch did their discussions16 months ago and I am sure if Archie is as busy as I am that he would not remember what they discussed.
They are in touch with one another and I am out of the picture as I was on the original discussion. I was aware of what was going on but did not participate in any dissitions.

For someone who doesn't know anything about
the deal. You sure seem to have alot of info on it!!! Do you think Archie forgot who he ordered it from and who he paid for it????

DXR_DAD

I am confused... Anyone who has been around the auto world would surely know a four puck clutch IS NOT a streetable clutch, unless you like to punish yourself. Archie, what made you think this clutch would be of any value off the dragstrip? Fieroshop, why are you hawking this clutch without providing ALL the conditions (problems) associated with it? To all you parts jockeys, QUIT SELLING JUNK TO THE REST OF US!!!

I have been to the Fieroshop. I bought some wheels and had some work done on my car. It was fast and convenient.

The people there, including George, were very nice. In fact, George bought lunch and they shared it with me.

When I need advice, I call the Fieroshop and I get it. Usually, they do not pressure me to buy from them. Instead, I get the kind of advice a friend would give like "you should find an 85 Fiero in a pick n' pull to get a wiring upgrade for your 84 . . ."

It is clear that there was some kind of misunderstanding. Archie, you have a reputation for excellent engineering and some "provocative" posts. As you said, the conversation you had with George at the Fieroshop on the phone was very different from this thread.

My own experiences on this Forum have been that it's a big feeding frenzy. When blood is drawn, then everybody has to get in there.

So what really happened here? Did you get a defective unit, Archie? Did the manufacturer pull a fast one on everybody? Or, is Archie's engine making more than 450HP?

As I am sure Archie will agree and this thread makes clear, running a Fiero-based business is not easy. Fiero owners are emotional about their cars and always searching for the best deal.

Let's try to get some perspective. For most Fiero owners, that clutch is just a dream part. The Fieroshop is developing a lot of cool dream parts. I hope that they succeed. Why? Because Fieros should be the ultimate car to modify.

But even if there were no dream parts, I would still go the Fieroshop for parts. They have a lot of parts, the shop is a friendly place, and George is a character.

My only regret is that while I have been rebuilding my engine, I have been without a Fiero to visit the Fieroshop in. As it says out front, "Fiero Parking Only"

Consider the other side of the parts counter. You sell a part to someone out of state and they install it. Then, they call and tell you it is slipping. It probably is, but you can never be certain. Perhaps the right thing is to just refund the money.

But, the owner of a bicycle shop I used to work at would always say "If you give the store away where will you work?" It frustrated me every time he said that, but he was right. Whenever we accepted a part on warranty, we had to convince the manufacturer to pay us back for it. Many times, we ended up paying for stuff.

Most of us will never know what really happened here. From my perspective, two people I respect as experts are discrediting each other. Of the two, I must confess that I know George a lot better. I can't believe he would sell stuff he did not believe in.

The green 88 GT on the Fieroshop site is his car. He drives what he sells, just like Archie.

Who's right? I have no idea.

But, don't say sh*t about the Fieroshop if you have not been there or done business with them. I want their business to succeed. It saves me from stock piling all the parts they have. It leaves me the "lifeline" of having an expert in the area that can fix my Fiero no matter what happens to it.

This Forum has to change. Treat others the way you want to be treated. Be considerate. If you don't know, save the B.S. for the F-body or Mr2 Forums.

For Archie and George, please find a way to resolve this and soon. It troubles me to see the "Titans of Fiero" are clashing!

What is a puck-clutch for? It seems like some people are saying they are for drag racing and other posts make them seem like they have no purpose. What is the big deal?

Is the Fieroshop the one with those hood scoops? Has anybody bought a set of them?

[This message has been edited by Iron Duke Wellingsley (edited 05-24-2001).]

You know, it really makes me ill to see grown men behave the way some of you here do......I have read a few posts from some on here who know absolutely nothing about the situation at all - simply put, they were not involved in it. This is an issue between Archie, George, and Robin (and I know this first-hand) -- I am not making a comment on who is right or wrong here as I was not involved in it nor was I even here when the transaction took place. But, what really amazes me is that two seemingly grown adult men cannot converse on the phone to resolve an issue.

I respect both of these individuals for their expertise and I will admit that their expertise is in two different areas. But, for others to come on here and bad-mouth a business when they know absolutely nothing about what took place or the events surrounding it further amazes me.

buds do you know how fieroshop treats their customers? Are you one of their customers? If not, then you have no knowledge of how their customers are treated.

DXR_DAD we know you don't have first-hand knowledge but it is evident the way you post that you have a grudge against George and you want the world to share in it - why not let others make up their own minds about him. And, if your hatred for him is so great, why not address it with him rather than gossiping at club meetings and on here and by email -- be the man and face the man!!

geyser again, do you have first hand knowledge of the clutch fieroshop is selling? I am using one and I like it and have seen testimonials of others using it and they seem to like it too.

Iron Duke Wellingsley yes, Fiero Shop has the hood vents and yes there have been many of them sold.......

Eric I feel fairly certain that Fiero Shop's "attitude" on this forum is out of the sheer frustration of being put on a defensive by certain people who delight in starting wars in public places. There is always a way to resolve a problem when two people can communicate intelligently about that problem. For whatever reason here, things get out of hand and one criticizes another and the other fights back and before you know it, everyone (including those who read it all) have a bad attitude. I wouldn't judge a business strictly by what is provoked on this forum but rather than by doing business with them or calling and talking with them even if only to get to know them. I don't think either George or Archie bite (they growl once in a while) and you may find that it is difficult to judge a business by what you read here..

and, LuckyTheyWereEverMade -- you made several good points. And, it is nice to see that there is a positive attitude amongst all of this.........

Now, Archie - George, would you two take your corners and..........no, wait, that's wrong........couldn't you two try to resolve this between the two of you before you both look even more foolish than you already are? After all, you are BOTH business owners and should act as the professionals that you are.

------------------

[This message has been edited by tgowens (edited 05-24-2001).]

tgowens-your right, I am not a customer of the shop. How do I know how they treat their customers? Read this complete thread over again dude, its self-explanatory. Simple solution to this is for the shop to honour their warrenty that came with this clutch.

Let me say this: I do not have it in for George and the fiero shop!!! I do not dislike George!!! But I do not like his business practics. This topic and others like this about the Fiero shop is part of my reason why. This is no different from any other post about bad service from a vendor, Yes people are going to talk about it! and everyone has the right to do so.

I'm sure everyone has talked about a vendor/seller or bad service. You call it gossip but it's what happens when your in business.

I have also tried to talk to George about what I and others think about the Fiero Shop
but he didn't want to hear it!!! I was told by him that I don't need to worry about others and that I should mind my own business, And yes I do have a email from George stating this!!!

So Terry if you or George don't like what I'm saying you also know how to contact me. That be a man, face the man goes both ways.

And so you know this, I will say what I want, when I want, and to who I want!!

DXR_DAD

buds, I went back and re-read this thread as you suggested and what I discovered is what I eluded to in my post, most of the people posting in this thread are not customers of the Fiero Shop. Therefore they have no first-hand knowledge of how the Fiero Shop treats a customer.

In every business there are dissatisfied customers but I'll bet you that the satisfied customers far outweigh the dissatisfied ones. And then you get a thread like this one where one person vents his frustrations and it makes it easy to assume that the business is a bad one and that all customers are treated the same way. I base my opinions of how a business treats a customer on how I am treated rather than how someone else was treated. I learned a lesson in life long ago, If I listen to everyone else and don't make up my own mind, I will never accomplish anything.

DXR_DAD, where in my post did I say that you had it in for George and the Fiero Shop? What I said was "it is evident the way you post that you have a grudge against George and you want the world to share in it:....I could do as you do and go back and dig up old threads to make my point but it really isn't necessary nor is it worth my time. What you feel is what you feel but it is wrong to try to influence others with your feelings. And, it isn't all about what you post here, it is about club meetings, emails to others, and just plain gossip which borders on malicious slander and defamation of character......and, while I am here, let me mention something else.......if you don't want to attend a Fiero show because George will be there ....... well, that is not a very good reason for not attending. And, if you don't want to attend because you think you won't win because of George........well, that's not a good reason either. You can't win if you don't attend but then again......if you go to a show just to win, you are going for the wrong reasons........so you see, your talk about George and the Fiero Shop extends far beyond "talk about a vendor/seller or bad service". And that is what prompted my statement about you having a grudge against George and you wanting the world to share in it. Now, you said "And so you know this, I will say what I want, when I want, and to who I want!!" -- that is your right under the first amendment but, when you get to the point of defamatory staments and slanderous statements said with malice you are entering into a new arena........

As for this whole thread, I wonder how situations like this were handled before the computer became a part of our lives. Now it is too convenient to jump on here and ruin reputations, criticize, bad-mouth people to the world instead of dealing with an issue one-on-one like it should be dealt with. There is power in seeing everyone jump on here and take the side of the complainer - gives them a sense of "see, I was right" but - it accomplishes nothing other than to influence others with their way of thinking and that's why it's done. It's done with a thought of I'll get back at that $#%%^$, I'll post my feelings for the world to see and they will feel the same way! Well, it's like I said earlier, if that's the way others are influenced then that's the way it is, as for me, I will deal with a shop/vendor personally and make up my own mind, I don't need someone elses experience to influence me.

tgowens, Your all wet on this one. As buds suggested you should go back and read ALL of the posts on this thread.

As I've said before, I don't like Vendor Bashing. My position has always been that a valid attempt should always be made to resolve these types of problems in private before going public. If you read all of this thread, you will see that I did that. You'll see that George is the one who brought the discussions to resolve this to the public.

In this situation I am the consumer. As the consumer, I've attempted to get the vendor to honor his warrantees and guarantees. In response the Vendor has put blame everywhere but on himself. I know that I have a little higher of a profile than the regular consumer. Considering how I've been "blown off" by George, I wonder out loud what would happen to Joe Blow (the average consumer) if he had this same situation.

George (and you) have elected to try to sell the products of The Fiero Shop in this Forum. George (and you), in many threads on this Forum, have made statements of warrantees, guarantees & suitability of use for many products the Fiero Shop sells. After failed attempts to resolve this particular issue in private, I feel that this Forum is a fair place to discuss Georges' refusal to honor his word. You live by the Sword, you die by the sword.

You see a lot of advertizing of products on the Internet, a lot of promises made and I'm sure a lot of promises broken everyday.

Even considering the large amount of advertizing going on on the Internet, I still feel that the Internet is the best CONSUMER tool ever to come around. This is even more true in the Fiero Internet community.

Consider this...... Before there was the Internet a consumer with a complaint had no way to recieve timely satisfaction. Sure you could write a letter to a magazine or club publication but if the publication decided to run your complaint letter it would be several months before anything would happen. Vendors used to be able to "Blow you off" by not returning your calls or not moving to satisfy warrantee claims. And word of mouth was the only way to pass on information to other Fiero owners on the practices of bad suppliers. Now, with the Internet, Consumers have the power to pass on immediate information to other consumers on good & BAD suppliers. If this POWER that the consumer now has is used correctly, it can serve to "clean up" the industry and keep the Vendors honest. When a vendor makes a promise on any product, via the Internet, those words are forever a matter of public record. In this case at hand, a Vendor announced a new "exclusive" product and made statements as to it's suitability for a particular application. In this thread it has been revealed that the Vendors previous statements were incorrect &, in fact the same Vendor has made statements in this thread that contradict statements he has made in the past. Before the Internet, Vendors used to be able to say just about anything to a consumer in a "one on one" situation to "blow him off" and then the Vendor could back off those statements without worry of retribution. Now they can't do that.

Vendors who come onto the Internet thinking that they can continue to do business like they did before the Internet are the ones who get caught in their own lies time after time.

In the Fiero community, there are many examples of Vendors who did just great before the Internet then were exposed as not so great after the word got passed around on the internet. For example: I used to think that I was the only one who was not getting his FOCOA newsletter. Back then I was told a lot of excuses for the newsletter being late. Then I get on the Internet & find out everyone was having that problem. Another example is guys who had purchased Zumwalt V-8 kits and didn't get their Axles or other parts. They had been told "one on one" that they were the exception to the norm. They later got on the internet and found out that a lot of others were getting the same run around.

Vendors who want to do business with the Fiero community on the Internet need to be forwarned that will be held accountable for the promises they make in a timely fashion. They also need to be aware that the consumers now have a perfect medium to compare notes on good and bad suppliers.

When the consumer sticks to the facts and follows a fair proceedure to resolve problems, HE is the winner with the Internet.

When a Vendor tries to put off solving problems (like he did before the Internet) HE is the looser in this medium.

If nothing else, The way this issue has been handled by me should be a primmer for other consumers who have failed get satisfaction from Vendors. If you are a Vendor, you should be warned that the way this issue has been handled by The Fiero Shop is an example of what not to do on the Internet. All suppliers will have issues that come up day to day with their customers, that is normal in any business. This should be notice to them to try to resolve issues in the early "one on one" stages & not let it get out of control.

End of lecture.

Archie

1. let me state that I have never done
business with the fiero shop but from the
stuff I've read over the past year or so,I
doubt I ever will!!.2.towgens;your the one
that should butt out-also you sure read stuff
different than everyone else!!.3.Archie-keep
put'in the screws to this a$$hole-he deserves
everything you can give him!4.I got my nomex
suit on,let the flaming begin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OK, I have stayed far away from these kind of threads. Up until now I have tried to limit my replies to only technical questions where I thought I might be able to help. I realize that there are usually two sides to every story. HOWEVER! After following several threads over the last month or so, I see a real pattern emerging. It seems to me that if the Fiero Shop is questioned about a customer relations problem, their answer seems to be to either duck any responsibility or to shift the blame to someone else.
I admit that I've never purchased anything from them, so I have no first-hand experience, but I am sure I will not consider dealing with them in the future. I am NOT basing that decision on anything that others may have said about them, but ONLY on the way they have reacted on this forum. There are far too many other good places that I am willing to spend my money at.
Just my .02 worth.

------------------
Rod Schneider, Woodstock, Ga. 84 SE, 330,000 miles and counting, 88 GT, not nearly as many miles :)

Archie, you have made valid points and I respect that. But, I still feel that this is an issue that is between you and George and, as you can see, others feel the need to jump on the wagon and "side" with someone - that does no one any good at all - it just causes ill feelings, damaged reputations, etc. There are people who do not like George and choose not to do business with him just as there are those who do not like you and choose not to do business with you - but, what good does it do to get on here and make sure that the world knows? The way this forum works (and elfiero is an example here) people form opinions based on what someone else's opinion is rather than their own experience - that's the point I have tried to make.

elfiero, "1. let me state that I have never done business with the fiero shop but from the stuff I've read over the past year or so,I doubt I ever will!!." - Somehow I doubt that the Fiero Shop will fold up because of the loss of your business. - "2.towgens;your the one that should butt out-also you sure read stuff different than everyone else!!." - And where do you get the right to tell me to butt out? Who died and made you the Fiero God? - I have more first-hand knowledge of this than you do my friend but you had to butt in to tell me to butt out? Good one...."3.Archie-keep put'in the screws to this a$$hole-he deserves everything you can give him!" - That's the kind of idiocy that creates threads that are not appropriate on this forum -- but, I am just considering the source...........

Just to set everyone straight on my level of responsibility here -- I have been out here working with George at the Fiero Shop for the last 9 months primarily restoring three of my own cars. I do see the day to day activities and know fairly well how his business is run. Whether or not I agree with practices or policies is not the point - they are not my practices or policies to set. I don't see, as Rodrv6 put it, the "duck any responsibility or to shift the blame to someone else." - what I do see is that there is an attitude of trying to serve the public and be responsive and then aside from that to resolve issues as they arise. I have had issues to deal with too over the years but there is always a solution - you can do anything you want to do, you just have to figure out how.

Now, Archie is correct, I have been known to "hawk the wares of the Fiero Shop" but I will assure you that any warranties or guarantees that I make I will stand behind -- I mean what I say and do what I say - I was raised to value honesty and integrity.....

A lot of this is also fueled by behind the scenes that none of you even know about....

I have bought item's from the Fiero Shop. Those items were just interior pieces. The transactions were good and I have no complaints about quality or price. But, If you read this thread and look at the dates of the posts, It appears that Archie was asking if folks used the particular clutch and what their opinion of the product was. Then after Archie could not get "satisfaction" off line, did the forum become involved. I have read both the original advertisement for the clutch and this thread. It does appear what the Fiero Shop states in one thread, is contradicted in the other. As an example. In the original thread it is stated the clutch is made "Exclusively for the Fiero Shop" But yet in this thread they state the manufacturer is sold it. As above I'm am sure Archie knows who he sent the money to. I am also a little confused as to why they keep telling Archie to talk to the manufacturer. If I buy a Panasonic TV from Best Buy and a week later the tube goes out, I take it back to Best Buy and either get a new one or my money refunded. I don't put it in a box and send it to Panasonic. Many folks here can look thru the past threads and make their own conclusions about a particular vendor. But when you see 2 or more threads with posts by a vendor who has many times contradicted himself, you begin to get leery about them. One would also think that with all the attention this is getting that they would like to "patch" it up to promote a positive image. At present (as an outside observer) I haven't seen anything like that.....yet.

At present I have only had 1 problem with a vendor, I am still working off-line to resolve the problem. If it cannot be resolved I may bring it on the forum to aid as a warning for others. (No, the vendor is not a member of the Forum) But like Archie says, now consumers have a larger medium in which to spread the word of poor vendor quality or service.

Archie I am glad that you are exposeing these people in public they advertise here in a public forum to sell there wares. but when something is not right they would prefer for you the consumer to keep quiet and go away.If they dont like problems with consumers they should go away and keep quiet! customer satisfaction should be any buisness number one goal.not just to make money I hope you do not let up on these people until you get satisfaction the price of warranty should be factored into there price when they imply that something comes with a warranty and any outfit that treats a consumer like the way you have been treated in my eyes is fly by night organisation that will keep dong things like this for only as long as they can get away with it heck nobody likes to to pay they should have sucked it up long ago and moved on I say if this is the way they want to do buiss.well its everybodys job to put them out of buiss.so lets all keep the presure on.goodluck

Oreif, I think you got it when you use the word, " contradicted" And as I said once it's here on the forum, it's here for good!

Terry, I don't understand you....with words like gossip, influence others, malicious slander and whatever??????? And what does a car show have to do with this?????

But this is what's funny, and yes I'm getting this from an old post!
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/007529.html

Here Pherder gives us a warning about a bad deal!!! Terry this is your reply:

Quote:
Well, I guess that explains the "0"feedback!!
I always wonder when a seller has 0 feedback but it appears that they know and/or have Fieros........

Thanks for the "heads-up" Paul!

He lets us know about a bad deal, and you thank him?????

Think about it. It's the same thing

...between all the dirty laundry, I'd like to interject that this is why I prefer a large-displacement V-8 and a plantary gear transmission - you only need to use the clutch once when starting out then throw the 3,000+ HP to it and start shifting clutchless. I wish I had room in one of the Fieri for this setup.

Just my 2¢

------------------
"Make Me Bad"

ok Bill, you want to know what it's really all about and you want me to tell you here so, here it is........there have been many snide remarks made by you and your wife (I read the emails) both about George and the Fiero Shop after the falling out at Golden Gate Fieros. You sided with Todd and the two of you created a very biased "newsletter" for that club (I still have my copy) -- all of that created the undoing of Golden Gate Fieros as I knew it when I was a mamber. The fact of the matter is that there were around, what, 15 members when George began his membership? At the time he left there were close to 70 due, mostly (but not all) to the fact that he was publishing the newsletter and operating the Fiero Shop. So, to eliminate further hassles, George (and quite a few of us) pulled out of GGF and began CFOG. Now, correct me if I am wrong, but GGF was originally intending to host the Western Regional show but in the end elected to "help" CFOG with the show. Aside from one member, not one of GGF's members has assisted in any way to date. If no one makes any effort to be a part of it or assist then they have no room to criticize those who do (again, my opinion). Personally, I don't know what is between you and George and I don't really care. But, you seem to want to drag me into your little foray and frankly, I don't want to be a part of it, I don't deserve to be a part of it (I wasn't even at that club meeting!). And, it seems that there are a lot of "negative" comments being passed around (and I do know by whom) both personally and via email...about the Western Regional show -- here is a fact, if you (or anyone else) does not want to attend that is your choice - but, to not attend because "George will be there" is ludicrous - that's a simple excuse. To not attend because you think you might not win is also the wrong reason - in fact, YOUR car has a good chance of winning -- but then you can't win if you don't attend..............

Then you get on here and drag up old posts and call my posts "drive-bys" (which, incidentally you have done as well - and on top of that, I didn't hear you mention a word when Archie posted a pic of his brake upgrade in someone else's post - we all do it but when he does it's ok and when I do it's a "drive-by"...and you want to talk about contradictions?

The post I made relative to eBay is slightly different due to the fact of anonimity - Fiero Shop is a business with a physical location and a web site - individuals selling on eBay are not (as far as that goes - look at my feedback sometime - I have been a buyer/seller for almost four years with 362 positive feedbacks and 0 negative ones - that should speak for my integrity and character! - it is all too easy for someone to utilize a fictitious email to register and sell on eBay and defraud a buyer (I have had it happen to me by a former forum member and you have yet to hear me post anything on here about it - I have contacted the Atty General in his state though but I feel that the matter is between him and me (unless you feel that you can help me with that).

You have made the statement many times that Fiero Shop has never nor never will work on your car. That's your choice. We all have choices. But I think that the number of times you have posted things like that here is an attempt to malign Fiero Shop and prevent others from doing business with Fiero Shop (that is my opinion).

I don't feel that this forum is the place to drag things out over and over and in the end, it is always the individuals involved that have to work it out, and work it out they will, without all the negativity on here. And besides that, I think Cliff is getting damn tired of reading threads like this one. This is a big community and there are certainly all types of people on here - we have different personalities and we come from different backgrounds. Now, if I am guilty by association then so be it.

I don't have any use for this, I don't have time for this, and I choose not to be abused or tolerate this. You can think what you like and say what you want that's true, I just choose not to listen any more - it is a waste of my time..............

Bill (DXR-DAD), I love ya man!

A new convert is born!

Just remember, that George has torn-up more clutches as a result of improper installation than he has ever sold. That really says it all.

Todd, you are totally wrong - it's as simple as that. Answering that post item by item is futile - those are not facts those are fantasies -- believe what you want but be accurate and informed when trying to impress your opinions on others.

I am not going to waste my time here on this subject any longer - my apologies to those Pennock's Forum members who have had the misfortune to stumble into this thread.

Archie, I sincerely hope that you and George can resolve this issue.

Terry, don't apologize to "the forum" for me. The purpose here is to provide useful information. I have done so. If any of it is proved to be in error, I will gladly retract any mistaken comments I have made.

Send me a copy of George's university degree or GM Mechanic's Certificate, or his Insurance policy, or his Bonding card, and I will write a full page apology.

Fair enough?

OK, now it's time for me to chime in. I was the vice president of Golden Gate last year, and I'm the president this year. Here is how I see it, with Terry's quotes and my responses.

quote Originally posted by tgowens: [B]ok Bill, you want to know what it's really all about and you want me to tell you here so, here it is........there have been many snide remarks made by you and your wife (I read the emails) both about George and the Fiero Shop after the falling out at Golden Gate Fieros. You sided with Todd and the two of you created a very biased "newsletter" for that club (I still have my copy) -- all of that created the undoing of Golden Gate Fieros as I knew it when I was a mamber.

Todd was the new editor of the newsletter. What he produced was very biased against George. We felt he overstepped his boundaries and used the the newsletter as his own personal forum to attack George. Yeah, George was not mentioned by name, but anyone in our club knew who he was talking about. Any and all mention of George, who was a club officer, and his shop was omitted. Noone was given an opportunity to review the newsletter before publication. The reason was obvious. Neither myself nor the club president condoned what was said and done.

quote The fact of the matter is that there were around, what, 15 members when George began his membership? At the time he left there were close to 70 due, mostly (but not all) to the fact that he was publishing the newsletter and operating the Fiero Shop. So, to eliminate further hassles, George (and quite a few of us) pulled out of GGF and began CFOG. Now, correct me if I am wrong, but GGF was originally intending to host the Western Regional show but in the end elected to "help" CFOG with the show.

After the club split, we didn't feel we had the personnel remaining to host the show. George had the show field reserved in his name. At our meeting, we debated whether we could continue, and decided that we could not. We called George on my cell phone to ask if CFOG wanted to take over. George said yes. If CFOG hadn't taken it over, we were going to cancel the show. We didn't feel we have any other choice. We never said we'd get involved as a club, but that individuals might be available to help.

As of this date, noone has asked us for help. Noone has said "we need volunteers to do this task, or perfom that errand." Nothing.

Noone from CFOG has come to our meeting to ask for help, noone has come to hand out information about the show, give us any details or to ask for participation.

I've tried to help. I made some suggestions to George and Brian Morgan (CFOG president), and my suggestions were dismissed. George barked back to me "everything is on the web site." First of all, there was little or no info on the web site until perhaps a month ago, and details are sparse.

I've been to several Western Regionals, so I know what people expect. Some people don't have web access or are not web savvy. Having some sparse info on the web site is not enough, but George won't hear it.

I haven't offered any further help with the show because, by past experience, I know I can't work with George. I can get along with him, I can hang around with him, I bring cars to be repaired, but when we try to work together in an organizational situation, it doesn't work. I was originally considering being a partner/investor in the Fiero Shop, and we tried to work together when George was a member and officer in Golden Gate. Our working relationship under those circumstances tended to be a bit stormy.

quote Aside from one member, not one of GGF's members has assisted in any way to date. If no one makes any effort to be a part of it or assist then they have no room to criticize those who do (again, my opinion).

Again, noone has asked.

quote about the Western Regional show -- here is a fact, if you (or anyone else) does not want to attend that is your choice - but, to not attend because "George will be there" is ludicrous - that's a simple excuse. To not attend because you think you might not win is also the wrong reason - in fact, YOUR car has a good chance of winning -- but then you can't win if you don't attend..............

People don't want to attend for different reasons:

1. Some people think the event will be unpleasant because of George, that there is the potential for confrontations. George has given me his assurance that there won't be, but people's impressions, formed from past experience, are hard to change. Remember, this is people's free time we're talking about. If they aren't confident it will be a good time, they'll just do something else.

2. The club split left a bad taste in people's mouth. This has put a big damper on enthusiasm.

Some members haven't returned to our club, some are just now coming back.

3. Some don't show their cars, ever. We have between 4-7 members who show their cars out of around 50+ people on our roster. Some have little or no interest in attending a car show at all. Interest in showing your car is a very narrow field. I've been to 5 or 6 Fiero shows, I'm a certifiable Fiero nut, and I've shown ONCE.

4. Most people don't resverve in advance. They show up on Friday night or even Saturday morning and sign up. That's just the way it is. I signed up 3 weeks ago, to show support, and my wrecked GT isn't even back together yet.

5. Some have commented that there isn't enough information about the show. What time are all the events happening? Will there be a place to wash cars? Past events were described in more detail, and this is what people expect. Some want printed info available, not just the web page.

6. One person commented that they had doubts the show would actually happen, that they'd pay their money and get nothing.

quote You have made the statement many times that Fiero Shop has never nor never will work on your car. That's your choice. We all have choices. But I think that the number of times you have posted things like that here is an attempt to malign Fiero Shop and prevent others from doing business with Fiero Shop (that is my opinion).

I've had good and not so good experiences at the Fiero Shop. I have to say, though, that I'm glad the shop is there. It's done a lot more good for me than bad. It's not perfect, but George has helped me many times, and that's good enough for me. Ultimately, to me, the shop is an asset.

How did this get so off topic? Since the fiero shop has failed to respond I guess that means he knows he's done wrong, just not enough of a man to admit it! Hey tgownes, still wonder'in how I know the fiero shop has bad customer service?

[This message has been edited by buds (edited 05-27-2001).]

quote Originally posted by buds: How did this get so off topic? Since the fiero shop has failed to respond I guess that means he knows he's done wrong, just not enough of a man to admit it! Hey tgownes, still wonder'in how I know the fiero shop has bad customer service? [This message has been edited by buds (edited 05-27-2001).]

There are behind the scenes battles being faught, issues hotly debated, stuff going on you can't imagine...the bay area is a lively place to be a Fiero fan.

Personnally, I'd take more peace and quiet.

[This message has been edited by FierobearRoadtrip (edited 05-27-2001).]

quote Originally posted by tgowens: You know, it really makes me ill to see grown men behave the way some of you here do......I have read a few posts from some on here who know absolutely nothing about the situation at all - simply put, they were not involved in it. This is an issue between Archie, George, and Robin (and I know this first-hand

First off, I do agree with most of what you're saying here. I do hope all parties involved can find a mutually agreeable solution. But you're missing one point about everyone throwing in their 2 cents. This is a public forum and the conversation that goes on here is like being in a room full of people. Now, I've not done business with the Fiero Shop, but if I were standing on a street corner and overheard this conversation, it would, rightly so, color my opinion of the parties involved. Do I have all the facts? No. I imagine Archie and George don't have ALL the facts, cuz they don't know what the other's thinking (although I think Archie's been pretty clear on that).

This problem should have been handled in private, but it wasn't. Apparently the attempt was made, but was unsuccessful. I truly hope this matter is solved quickly, but I've seen several instances of George contradicting himself here. And when there's a problem, IMO, he seems more interested in saying "it's not my fault" than he is at fixing the problem. Of course, all of this is heresay since I am not a principle in this situation. Consider what I've read to be the same as word of mouth. In any business, a satisfied customer will tell 3 people about you. A dissatisfied one will tell 10. With this forum, and Archie's big mouth , he's just managed to up the ante a bit.

I hope the next post on this thread is Archie and George saying the situation is resolved. I don't even care what the resolution is. Just get it resolved.

And for Archie's orginal question: Has anyone had any experience with this clutch?!?! No one ever answered that. Apparently, no one on the forum has bought one,yet.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: And for Archie's orginal question: Has anyone had any experience with this clutch?!?! No one ever answered that. Apparently, no one on the forum has bought one,yet. [/B]

I can't speak for the V8 clutch, but I once had an 87GT that needed a clutch. George and I put his first V6 clutch into that car. It felt and worked great. I had a friend or two try it out, and they liked it, too.

When I was dealing with trying to find clutch parts (hydraulics, at first), another mechanic friend of mine recommened Robin. I introduced George to Robin and helped do some research on the V6 clutch. We were able to compare the FOCOA, LUK (stock) and Centerforce clutches. Robin designed a clutch that fixed all of the shortcomings. I was impressed with the way he did things.

I don't know much about the V8 clutch, but I would trust Robin's engineering abilities. If he did the same due diligence on the V8 clutch as the V6, I'd trust that clutch.

When my 88GT (w/V6) needs a new clutch, I will be buying one from Robin/George.

Hope this helps.

You guy's are funny. I can just see you all punching it out when and if you ever meet. I have bought from the fiero shop and got good quality stuff (dog bone)so i have no beef with anyone. peace out.

LuckyTheyWereEverMade, I agree with you 100%. I am a very very very happy customer with George Miller and the Fiero Shop. I have bought about $1000 worth of high quality stuff from George. I don't care what you people say, I will continue to buy from George because of his great service and high quality parts.

If it were not for people like George Miller and V8 Archie it would be a lot harder for us to rebuild and customize our cars. They are both great vendors and contribute tremendously to the life of the fiero sports car. I don’t think it’s fare or civil for any vendor to have to deal with his unhappy customers on a forum with 2400 of his customers like this. There seems to be a lot of this here lately too.

I think it's best I stay neutral on this subject from here on and not fuel the fire anymore than it is. For those contemplating on buying the Kevlar clutch that George sells I have that clutch and think it’s a very high quality clutch.

------------------

Well George, I bet you thought I had lost interest. Now that all those guys have the Club stuff worked out, I'd like you to honor your Warrantees & Guarantees.

It's been like 28 days. I have this clutch laying on my desk & I think of you everyday. Whenever someone comes into the shop, they see it laying on my desk. They ask "What's with the Clutch on your desk?" & I TELL THEM the whole sad story. With these burn marks, it makes on great conversation piece.

You can ignore this thread if you want but it will keep popping up to the top. The only way to make it go away is to honor your word.

Archie