GQ (magazine) names Colin Kaepernick "Citizen of the Year." Kaepernick's face, in photographic portraiture, will grace the cover of GQ's December issue. http://wgntv.com/2017/11/13...citizen-of-the-year/
GQ Magazine... Dilly Dilly!
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 11-14-2017).]
GQ (magazine) names Colin Kaepernick "Citizen of the Year." Kaepernick's face, in photographic portraiture, will grace the cover of GQ's December issue. http://wgntv.com/2017/11/13...citizen-of-the-year/
GQ Magazine... Dilly Dilly!
Well, That'll be useful in the ole two holer for as long as it lasts................
------------------ Ron
Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun.... Open your frigg'n minds, think about all the other tools that can be made into WMDs.
I sincerely hope that life is never discovered on another planet because, sure as hell Progressives and Socialists will want to send them money.
P.S. I'm generally with "theBDub" in this discussion.
I don't think that Colin Kaepernick or any of the other NFL players and other NFL employees and franchise owners have disrespected the National Anthem or anything that it stands for.
As far as the more radical aspects of the Black Lives Matter platform, such as the demand for "reparations" to make up for historical injustices, I will not impugn Colin Kapernick or his motives (or anyone else) unless they explicitly endorse the idea of Reparations, or make an explicit statement of across-the-boards support for the Black Lives Matter's published platform of demands and principles.
Has Kaepernick or any other NFL player actually gone that far? A question, and not a rhetorical question. I don't think any of the NFL players have gone that far, but I have not specifically researched that aspect of what's been going on here.
P.S. I'm generally with "theBDub" in this discussion.
I don't think that Colin Kaepernick or any of the other NFL players and other NFL employees and franchise owners have disrespected the National Anthem or anything that it stands for.
Do you really think this surprises anyone on this forum?
------------------ Ron
Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun.... Open your frigg'n minds, think about all the other tools that can be made into WMDs.
I sincerely hope that life is never discovered on another planet because, sure as hell Progressives and Socialists will want to send them money.
Has Kaepernick or any other NFL player actually gone that far? A question, and not a rhetorical question. I don't think any of the NFL players have gone that far, but I have not specifically researched that aspect of what's been going on here.
Telling, in that you admit you form opinions without information....
I have stated many times how I feel about this protest and won't hide behind any side comments.
I feel that kneeling during the National Anthem shows a huge disrespect to all those who have fought and died for this country. It really doesn't matter what the intent of originator was, it was perceived as something else. My perspective is all that matters when it comes to what I watch on TV.
I don't remember anyone saying he couldn't protest in this manner but, just because you can, doesn't mean you should and most surely doesn't suggest that others are going to support such a demonstration for the same reasons. While you may ask what's more peaceful, I'm asking what would the protestors could have done to have won more support versus being such a divisive protest. What could Kaeperneck have done that would have accomplished good versus bad instead? What could all of those entertainers have done with their "star" power, money and other resources to have won support from the average American citizen.
I don't have that answer but, I do recognize that this "peaceful" protest has done nothing to make the original situation different and most surely has not won the hearts and minds of the those who were watching the NFL games. TV ratings and smaller revenues pretty much speak for that. Admittedly, there are a few "race" based organizations who are supporting the original QB to help him get a job. (A waste of time IMHO, he's not that good.) When something doesn't give the desired result, then maybe one should consider an alternative method of achieving the stated goal. Peaceful, the protest may have been but, did it achieve anything?
I hear you. Others agree with you. Others disagree with you.
I think the nature of the protest is part of its success. It angered a lot of the nation. It got the attention of more people than probably any other peaceful protest would. Now, we sit here and talk about the act itself instead of the meaning of the protest, so maybe a different protest would have been more effective. I am not sure--I don't have that answer.
But just like those whiny liberals that complain about everything aren't right by virtue of them complaining, neither are you. There is nothing inherently disrespectful to the military or veterans by their kneeling. Your perception matters to you, and I don't mean to say that you're wrong, just that your offense taken doesn't mean that they're wrong either.
Originally posted by olejoedad: Telling, in that you admit you form opinions without information....
Have YOU actually looked into the question that I raised, about Kaepernick (et al) vs Black Lives Matter platform as published online?
If everyone had to establish that they were literally experts on whatever topic is under discussion, before weighing in with their messages (posts), this forum would have few messages, indeed.
If Kaepernick (et al) wanted to disrespect the National Anthem or the U.S. Flag, they wouldn't be taking a knee. They would use a more aggressive or more disruptive body language.
I see "Trump Chumps" revealing themselves here. Trump launches a verbal assault on the NFL or on some of its players (Kaepernick, et al). Trump says "Jump" and the Trump Chumps say "How High?" Trump's ideas will screw most Trump Chumps every which way to Sunday, to the extent that his ideas become reality. The sooner that most of us are looking at President Trump in the proverbial rearview mirror, the better for the United States. Unless his successor to the Presidency reveals himself (or herself) to be yet another step farther in the downwards direction.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 11-14-2017).]
I hear you. Others agree with you. Others disagree with you.
I think the nature of the protest is part of its success. It angered a lot of the nation. It got the attention of more people than probably any other peaceful protest would. Now, we sit here and talk about the act itself instead of the meaning of the protest, so maybe a different protest would have been more effective. I am not sure--I don't have that answer.
But just like those whiny liberals that complain about everything aren't right by virtue of them complaining, neither are you. There is nothing inherently disrespectful to the military or veterans by their kneeling. Your perception matters to you, and I don't mean to say that you're wrong, just that your offense taken doesn't mean that they're wrong either.
Have a good day, Ron.
Ya it is working great it's killing the hand that feeds them fools..
Have YOU actually looked into the question that I raised, about Kaepernick (et al) vs Black Lives Matter platform as published online?
If everyone had to establish that they were literally experts on whatever topic is under discussion, before weighing in with their messages (posts), this forum would have few messages, indeed.
If Kaepernick (et al) wanted to disrespect the National Anthem or the U.S. Flag, they wouldn't be taking a knee. They would use a more aggressive or more disruptive body language.
I see "Trump Chumps" revealing themselves here. Trump launches a verbal assault on the NFL or on some of its players (Kaepernick, et al). Trump says "Jump" and the Trump Chumps say "How High?" Trump's ideas will screw most Trump Chumps every which way to Sunday, to the extent that his ideas become reality. The sooner that most of us are looking at President Trump in the proverbial rearview mirror, the better for the United States. Unless his successor to the Presidency reveals himself (or herself) to be yet another step farther in the downwards direction.
So, purposely making a large portion of the country angry is acceptable? That is my whole point with this thread. Why purposely pizz others off to accomplish your goal?
Hold on here, I am angry about a percieved injustice, so I will make others uncomfortable to appease my needs and desires. Does this not sound insane?
I also notice how our younger college grads react to these type of threads. Limited experience and exaggerated book smarts. Begetting any and all experience from members. Academia already taught them how it is, so why take another's word?
I am thinking that after 20 years they will think much differently than they do now. I know for a fact that I do, and many of our other right swinging members can attest to this also. Many of us were not always so red.
So, purposely making a large portion of the country angry is acceptable? That is my whole point with this thread. Why purposely pizz others off to accomplish your goal?
Hold on here, I am angry about a percieved injustice, so I will make others uncomfortable to appease my needs and desires. Does this not sound insane?
When MLK Jr. marched with his fellow men and women, he made the majority of this country angry and uncomfortable. It was still the right thing to do.
Your second point sounds exactly like what those in this thread are doing. They are angry about a perceived injustice against their servicemen and women, and they want to force others to stand to appease their needs and desires.
There is nothing inherently disrespectful to the military or veterans by their kneeling. Your perception matters to you, and I don't mean to say that you're wrong, just that your offense taken doesn't mean that they're wrong either.
There in lies the difference, those who have served versus those who have not, IMHO. It's a real shame that most have not taken the opportunity to serve their country. They apparently have no idea how much serving their country could have benefitted themselves.
Some have rights only because others have served, fought and died for them. Regardless, you can see it however you wish and just as you may consider me off base, I see supporters of this protest to be disrespectful of all veterans.
As always, respect is earned, I have absolutely no respect for anyone who does not appreciate the sacrifices of those who went before them. They could have found a better, less divisive way to support their cause. Anyone who thinks they made any points with the majority of Americans is sadly, misinformed. If nothing else, NFL ratings show how the majority feel. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
------------------ Ron
Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun.... Open your frigg'n minds, think about all the other tools that can be made into WMDs.
I sincerely hope that life is never discovered on another planet because, sure as hell Progressives and Socialists will want to send them money.
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 11-14-2017).]
When MLK Jr. marched with his fellow men and women, he made the majority of this country angry and uncomfortable. It was still the right thing to do.
Your second point sounds exactly like what those in this thread are doing. They are angry about a perceived injustice against their servicemen and women, and they want to force others to stand to appease their needs and desires.
I was alive when MLK was part of the solution. I don't remember 'most of America' being angry. I'm sure some people were (Geo. Wallace types?); by and large, America applauded his message and respected his efforts, especially the peaceable way his rallys we're conducted. His words were uplifting, unifying and truthful.
This is more clear! However, I still believe the kneels are being done for good reasons. Reasons that I have stated in this thread. And reasons that have... nothing to do with communism or propaganda from the left.
Todd, sometimes people will disagree with you and they aren't stupid or misinformed. Sometimes a lot of people will disagree with you, and they aren't brainwashed.
My beliefs come from a libertarian philosophy of fairness and rights for all. I don't think I could get any less communist. But I'm sure you think I think this way because I grew up in a propaganda machine. And how could I ever disprove that?
Look, bDub, I *don't care* if you don't agree with me.
We are going back and forth because you were trying to... I don't really know WHAT you were trying to do. I was trying to make you understand what I was saying, and the entire time you were attempting to try to catch me in my own words to "score points."
I never said you have to agree with me, I simply want to clearly convey to you what my thoughts were... which EVERYONE ELSE on here understood.
Your "defense" in the discussion was to simply say that I was contradicting myself.
Again, I don't care if you believe it or not... I just want a simple acknowledgement that you UNDERSTAND CLEARLY what I'm saying. You can believe whatever you want beyond that...
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Look, bDub, I *don't care* if you don't agree with me.
We are going back and forth because you were trying to... I don't really know WHAT you were trying to do. I was trying to make you understand what I was saying, and the entire time you were attempting to try to catch me in my own words to "score points."
I never said you have to agree with me, I simply want to clearly convey to you what my thoughts were... which EVERYONE ELSE on here understood.
Your "defense" in the discussion was to simply say that I was contradicting myself.
Again, I don't care if you believe it or not... I just want a simple acknowledgement that you UNDERSTAND CLEARLY what I'm saying. You can believe whatever you want beyond that...
It's not that I was trying to catch you in a lie. It's that I thought you were just spouting nonsense because you had two contradicting theories.
But now I understand that I misread your post, and your opinion is that it's a combination of the two.
It's okay for me to have misread you. There are no points won or lost here.
There in lies the difference, those who have served versus those who have not, IMHO. It's a real shame that most have not taken the opportunity to serve their country. They apparently have no idea how much serving their country could have benefitted themselves.
Some have rights only because others have served, fought and died for them. Regardless, you can see it however you wish and just as you may consider me off base, I see supporters of this protest to be disrespectful of all veterans.
As always, respect is earned, I have absolutely no respect for anyone who does not appreciate the sacrifices of those who went before them. They could have found a better, less divisive way to support their cause. Anyone who thinks they made any points with the majority of Americans is sadly, misinformed. If nothing else, NFL ratings show how the majority feel. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
For what it's worth I'm a veteran who supports freedom of speech. There are many things I don't like about blm but they have a right to free speech too.
For what it's worth I'm a veteran who supports freedom of speech. There are many things I don't like about blm but they have a right to free speech too.
Stop trying to use the "freedom of speech" strawman argument.
This issue NOTHING to do with the 1st Amendment.
At no point has the government ever once attempt to curtail anyone's Constitutional right in this matter.
(...and NO, President Trump voicing his opinion at political rally is not the government attempting to abridge the Constitution.)
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 11-14-2017).]
I really don't much like kaepernick or blm but kneeling to bring attention to their agenda is absolutely a free speech right.
Do you have any idea at all what the 1st Amendment to the United States Constitution actually says?
I honestly can't believe that we have to have these kind of high school level discussions on very basic American civics, but apparently we do.
Let's return to my original statement, and suppose you tell us exactly how the United States government has even once attempted to infringe a 1st Amendment right of any of your "kneelers".
(...and once again I'll remind you that President Trump giving his opinion is not "the government abridging anyone's right".)
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 11-14-2017).]
I didn't say that the government was trying to take anyones free speech away. However some people here would like to take away free speech when they don't agree with it.
When MLK Jr. marched with his fellow men and women, he made the majority of this country angry and uncomfortable. It was still the right thing to do.
Your second point sounds exactly like what those in this thread are doing. They are angry about a perceived injustice against their servicemen and women, and they want to force others to stand to appease their needs and desires.
MLK didn't dis the flag or the national anthem , you are totally BLIND to that fact.. You have zero respect for this country that gives you so much, if the chips were down you'd not fight for it.. Many illegals have more RESpect for the US of A than you and many like you.. SAD really.. you were born in the greatest country in the world with the best chance to have a great life, and you shita on it.. I'll take n illegal that respects and loves what this country is, over a/h's that spit on it and every symbol of it.. Flag/song/anthem... Again if this place sucks so bad go back to your motherland.. You won't cause even with all the crap you post, and think you know dam well you are not going to live as you are now in any other country.. That your family tree cme from.. F A C T !!
Originally posted by dratts: I didn't say that the government was trying to take anyones free speech away. However some people here would like to take away free speech when they don't agree with it.
Sorry but no.
Take a look at those ratings bars.
Only guy in bad shape is a radical right winger.
This damn thread has turned into a zombie that won't die or a better analogy is that it's in a time loop or something, going 'round and 'round.
I admit that I haven't read through all of it but I'll bet Randye has by now pointed out that the 1st amendment has to do with the government, not private entities.
So all y'all going on about 1st amendment rights for players employed by private entities obviously don't have a clue. Why not just stop it?
---------------------------------------------- Sorry but no.
Take a look at those ratings bars.
Only guy in bad shape is a radical right winger.
This damn thread has turned into a zombie that won't die or a better analogy is that it's in a time loop or something, going 'round and 'round.
I admit that I haven't read through all of it but I'm pretty sure Randye will have mentioned by now that the 1st amendment has to do with the government, not private entities.
So all y'all going on about 1st amendment rights for players employed by private entities obviously don't have a clue. Why not just stop it?
Sorry but no.........................................................................................................................Yikes! Is that a groundhog?????????
For what it's worth I'm a veteran who supports freedom of speech. There are many things I don't like about blm but they have a right to free speech too.
Sir, No where have I said they (anyone) didn't have a right to free speech. I said, just because you can doesn't mean you should.
Additionally, the 1st Amendment isn't even applicable to this discussion. Our government is not trying to stop anyone from that right. That is what the 1st Amendment is about, government squelching free speech, not the NFL. These protestors are employees, employees at work, their employer can make all kinds of demands.
Secondly, no one posting in this thread has said (to my knowledge) that the protestors couldn't do it, those against it have said the protest was disrespectful. According to a recent poll I just read, the majority of Americans find the protest repulsive and disrespectful. And yes, I am a Veteran. 2 years USMC, 13 years US Army. ------------------ Ron
Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun.... Open your frigg'n minds, think about all the other tools that can be made into WMDs.
I sincerely hope that life is never discovered on another planet because, sure as hell Progressives and Socialists will want to send them money.
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 11-14-2017).]
I didn't say that the government was trying to take anyones free speech away. However some people here would like to take away free speech when they don't agree with it.
Did you even go to high school?? kneeling isn't free speech.. Do you even know what the word speech means..? Do you speak out of your knee?? Hint kneeling is an action, not speech..
[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 11-15-2017).]
Sit-ins, flag waving, demonstrations and wearing protest buttons are examples of symbolic free speech, protected exactly the same as verbal and written speech by the 1st amendment.
And, back on point, NOT protected in the case of the NFL players.
MLK didn't dis the flag or the national anthem , you are totally BLIND to that fact.. You have zero respect for this country that gives you so much, if the chips were down you'd not fight for it.. Many illegals have more RESpect for the US of A than you and many like you.. SAD really.. you were born in the greatest country in the world with the best chance to have a great life, and you shita on it.. I'll take n illegal that respects and loves what this country is, over a/h's that spit on it and every symbol of it.. Flag/song/anthem... Again if this place sucks so bad go back to your motherland.. You won't cause even with all the crap you post, and think you know dam well you are not going to live as you are now in any other country.. That your family tree cme from.. F A C T !!
How is kneeling disrespecting the flag? Flag code doesn't say anything about kneeling being disrespectful.
Originally posted by Tony Kania: This has been discussed. You are trolling.
First of all, it has to do with both the flag code and the anthem. There are no rules on standing for the anthem, nor are there rules against kneeling. Source
And as you certainly know, this is not the first time this has happened. In all previous cases, there were clearly established rules that were broken which cause the consequences. That is NOT the case here.
quote
In 1968, U.S. Olympic athletes Tommie Smith and John Carlos gave a raised-fist "black power" salute on the medal stand as the Star-Spangled Banner was being played. They were thrown out of the Olympics. Four years later, U.S. Olympians Vince Matthews and Wayne Collett, who were also African-American, were barred from further competition when they were considered to have shown insufficient respect from the medal stand.
They broke the rule by making a political stance during the Olympics.
quote
Some fans also found room to express their views during the anthem. "During the Vietnam era, it was not uncommon for fans -- not enormous numbers, but some -- to remain seated during the anthem," Gorn said.
quote
In March 1996, the National Basketball Association suspended the Denver Nuggets’ Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf. A convert to Islam, Abdul-Rauf said he did not believe in standing for any nationalistic ideology, according to the New York Times.
The NBA had a specific rule regarding standing during the anthem.
This time, there is no specific rule.
quote
This language does not appear in the NFL Rule Book, as the post indicates. However, it is apparently included in a separate document called the "game operations manual." This document is not online, so we can’t review it first-hand, but McCarthy, the NFL spokesman, said it is distributed by the league to all of its member teams.
While text circulating on social media would seem to suggest there will be consequences for protesting during the anthem, there is discretion involved -- and the NFL has repeatedly stated that it will not punish players for taking a knee during the anthem.
McCarthy told PolitiFact that "players are strongly encouraged, but not required, to stand during the national anthem." He has used essentially the same language in previous statements going back to 2016.
This is not disrespectful to our flag, it never has been in the past. You can not pick and choose what is "respectful" based on your political beliefs. If you are going to demand that we "respect" the flag at all times, you need to be mad at every advertiser that uses it, every political campaign that uses it, and every horizontal display of it. All of these things are just some of the many disrespectful violations of US Flag Code that are done daily that you don't care about.
Originally posted by Threedog: This is not disrespectful to our flag, ... ...
Yes it is.
Edit: His actions have torn apart a large part of this country. You believe that this is good. I believe that this is evil. I am willing to let it play out.
quote
...You can not pick and choose what is "respectful" based on your political beliefs.
...
Now, just who here is limiting speech?
[This message has been edited by Tony Kania (edited 11-15-2017).]
I didn't say that the government was trying to take anyones free speech away. However some people here would like to take away free speech when they don't agree with it.
Your employer is allowed to take away your free speech while you're on the job, otherwise your employer has the right to fire you if they don't like it.
In this case, the NFL chooses not to exercise that right... but they have to contend with dropping ratings.
Since the NFL succeeds only when fans watch the games, they will eventually have to either stick it out, or make a decision.
Again, freedom of speech doesn't exist while you're at work... and I can assure you, when the players are in the stadium, dressed in uniform... they are at work, "on the clock."
By any reasonable measure, this is not freedom of speech.
