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HHP is Making Sway bars Again! Front and Rear Adjustable Bars by R Runner
Started on: 03-25-2007 10:14 AM
Replies: 344 (19988 views)
Last post by: cavalier3400z on 07-28-2016 07:16 PM
R Runner
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Report this Post03-25-2007 10:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for R RunnerClick Here to visit R Runner's HomePageClick Here to Email R RunnerSend a Private Message to R RunnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

(Updated 1/8/13)

If you are interested in ordering any of the following equipment please do one of the following:

1. Send me an email: rrunner@egyptian.net
2. Send me a PM.


I will respond as quickly as possible. Thank you for your interest in this product.
I accept Personal Checks and PayPal . We can discuss other methods of payment if these do not work for you.


The bars for the '88 chassis are NOW AVAILABLE!. Please see the following link for details:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/043365.html


Below is information on the the sway bars for the '84 to '87 chassis

Fellow Fiero Friends,


As some of you may know, I began to make and sell a rear sway bar for the 1984 to 1987 Fiero from 2002 to 2006. I was autocrossing an '87 GT at the time and recognized the need for a fore / aft balance. To do this I developed a bar I saw used in other racecars. However, I developed it for street use. The 1-1/4? hollow bar was used in the rear and mounted behind the cradle instead of below it. This saved precious ground clearance. I started a company called HHP (Hosler High Performance). Although I didn?t advertise much, customers were very pleased with the product and I still have people calling me asking if I still make them. The problem was that the bar took a lot of work to make.

I figured out how to solve the problem. Build a better bar.

And so my quest started. I am very excited about the new product I have developed, measured, and tested. Through 10 years of combined Fiero and racing experience I proud to offer both new products:

HHP FRONT ADJUSTABLE SWAY BAR KIT

and

HHP REAR ADJUSTABLE SWAY BAR KIT

I am very excited about this product because it offers many advantages over other anti-sway bars. Below is a picture of each kit and a description of the benefits:

HHP Front Sway Bar Kit:


HHP Rear Sway Bar Kit:



These bars are intended for cars with stock A-arm geometry and mounting positions on 1984 to 1987 Fieros.

Why are these kits so great?

- The kits use three-piece sway bars. That means the bar can be changed while using all of the existing hardware.
- Each bar arm is adjustable to allow for fine-tuning of the fore/aft balance (4 wheel drift) of the car.
- Because of the great adjustment range, kits can offer a balanced setup both Touring (soft settings) or Competition (stiff settings)
- The rear sway bar mounts by drilling 4 holes in the SIDE of the cradle. Easy installation
- The rear sway bar is mounted behind the cradle so valuable ground clearance is not forfeited.
- All Sway bar arms and brackets are coated with three layers of POR 15.
- I use spring steel in the sway bars. The good stuff.
- Rod end bearings are Greaseable. They will last a very long time.
- End links use high quality poly.
- All bolts are grade 8. Salt spray coatings are used for maximum rust resistance.
- The front bar mounts in the stock location. No need for modifications.
- These kits can compensate for all types of mods. Weight distribution changes, stiffer springs, stiffer shocks, and driver preference can ALL be balanced with adjustment.
- The front sway bar will fit in the stock location and mounting points
- As always, a detailed instruction manual showing full installation and settings is included.


?This is all great, but what?s the big deal? I mean, my fiero handles great now, right??

I think we are talking apples and oranges. As far as I know (and I have been wrong before) bars with this type of adjustability AND higher stiffness have not been offered for our Fieros previously. Compared to an Addco set of front and rear sway bars, there is a very noticeable improvement. The front bar on a stock Fiero has a spring rate of about 100 lb per 5 deg. of twist. ( I measured this) The Addco front bar has about 251 lb at the same twist. Big improvement. But wait, our cars push anyway, right? So what is really needed is a bar in the rear that can balance the car. Without going into boring suspension mathematics and with the mounting locations I have chosen, the rear bar needs to be 250 lbs also. This approximately produces a balanced car. And that?s what my old bar did.

Let?s take this a step further.

What makes a sway bar work? Basically the stiffness (and therefore sway control) can be changed in two major ways:

1. Change the affective arm length
2. Change the stiffness of the bar through wall thickness or diameter.

These bar kits allow for both. The affective arm length can be changed on the rear (see picture below) by positioning the end link bolt in one of 5 holes. This creates 6 (yes, 6) positions. For the rear bar, a hole change creates substantial change in sway bar rate. For the front bar, only 3 holes are used. This makes for some great fine-tuning.
If you decide that the whole car (ride quality) needs to get stiffer or softer, that can be done by changing the sway bar itself. You can change the bar so that you are using a soft ?Touring? setting for in town driving and then put in a ?Competition? bar for a weekend autocross or track day!



How do I know what to get? How do I balance it once I get it?

Good question. How can something like this work for all types of cars and drivers, engines, suspension upgrades, etc? Below is a chart that I hope helps explain more than it confuses. There are lots of lines, so stay with me????.



There are 2 kits available, a front kit and a rear kit. For each kit you have your choice of 1 of 4 types of bar: Touring (black line), Sport (blue line), Performance (white line) and Competition (red line).

The REAR sway bars are shown as diagonal lines from top left to bottom right. The bottom of the chart is the arm adjustment position. As you can see there is a wide range of force settings available. Each bar stiffness is a different color as described above. I can help you choose.

The FRONT sway bars are shown as horizontal lines. Each group of three lines (by color) is a different stiffness of bar. The three lines represent the three hole settings.
WHERE THE FRONT AND REAR BAR LINES CROSS IS THE FORE/AFT BALANCE POINT.
This is what you want as a starting point. Basically a front sport bar should be matched with a rear sport bar, but as you can see that may not be necessary.
Let?s do an example. Let?s say you want to balance the car, but you already have an Addco front bar and want to conserve money (and who doesn?t?). The front Addco bar has a rate of about 251 lb. The proper bar choice is the ?Touring? bar (black diagonal line). The proper setting to begin with would be position #3 or #4.
The cool part is you can change this. Now let?s say you decide you like the car to be set up a little more loose (oversteer for you technical term guys?). No problem. Change the rear bar arm hole position to # 1 or #2.
But wait, now you want to compete in autocross on the weekend. If you purchase an HHP front kit with a competition bar, the sway rate in the front is FAR more than before. We are taking 450 lb ish. The ONLY change that is necessary is to purchase a BAR for the rear. You already have the other hardware (arms, mounts, end links, etc?). Oh yea, and you can put the softer bars back on for a soft ride after race day.

Also keep in mind that the forces shown are approximate. All of the bars were measured using the same method on the same test bench, so relative to each other, they should be pretty good. As an absolute measurement, they may be off some percentage.


So what does each of the rates feel like? For real.

Touring (black lines): This is a daily driver. You like to take turns and appreciate a well-balanced car that always feels good, but ride quality is important because of those darn potholes in the city. The rear version of this bar can be used with the stock front, Addco front or HHP Front Touring bars. A good choice for show cars with a little spirited driving when no one is looking.

Sport (blue lines): The car is still a daily driver, but hey I like to turn! Ride quality is nice, but I?ll give up some to play a little. Interstate cloverleaves and on ramps are my friends and I take them for fun even if it?s not my exit. Besides, the Fiero is made for turning. If it were a drag car, it would have come with a V8 and been called a Firebird. A car with this setup can (don?t try this on the road) be thrown from side to side across two lanes with NO back end over shoot. Can be used at the track or at an autocross.

Performance (white lines): Ride quality is over rated. I want my car to handle! There is even LESS lean than the Sport bar kits. Unless the Viper next to you has a modified suspension (provided you have enough tire grip) he is going to have a tough time hanging with you. This is what turning is all about and the car is impressive on each drive. You are the kind of person who likes to go 15 miles out of your way for some sweet twistys. At this point the main limitation is the tire sidewall flex and grip. Can be used at the track or at an autocross.

Competition (red lines): Just what it says. This is a track day car or autocross car (or you don?t feel the need for much ride quality). However a bar like this is not as stiff as a high shock rate or low profile tires. At an autocross that guy with the E-mod Vette is thinking, ?why the heck isn?t that car leaning?!?!? when you post a killer time. Your car will feel flat in the curves, even when turning the wheel as hard as possible at 40 mph.

My personal preference is the Sport bar for my daily driver. There is no overshoot of the back end and they work well with my 16? rims and all-season performance tires. I do a lot of state highway and Interstate driving. They can also handle downtown St. Louis if necessary without me having to schedule an appointment with the chiropractor.

I think I have covered most of it, but if not ( and I expect this) please post questions. I learn from questions.
How much are they?

The prices are listed below:

Front HHP Sway Bar Kit: $480 US S&H is included to the lower 48 (6 to 8 weeks for delivery)
Rear HHP Sway Bar Kit: $520 US S&H is included to the lower 48 (6 to 8 weeks for delivery)


I have updated the pricing to reflect material cost increases as well as additional fees from other sources.

If you would like to place an order, Please send me a PM or an email. I want to make sure you get the correct bar for your application.

Disclaimer: HHP does not take responsibility for the customer's actions. Also, HHP does not encourage performance driving on the streets and will not be held responsible for damage, property damage, car damage, personal injury, or other person's injury during installation or use of this product. There is no official warranty on this equipment either stated or implied, HOWEVER, I will always work with the customer to make sure they are satisfied. Please use this equipment at your own risk. Thank you for reading the legal stuff.

Also, I may update this site from time to time to make sure it has the latest information.

Please let me know what you think. I am ALWAYS interested in your opinion.

Paul Hosler
Hosler High Performance
rrunner@egyptian.net
------------------
Paul

Pontiac prestiege.... Pontiac performance...... Pontiac POWER!
For a full history of the Fiero SS: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/789315

[This message has been edited by R Runner (edited 01-08-2013).]

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ccfiero350
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Report this Post03-25-2007 10:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ccfiero350Click Here to Email ccfiero350Send a Private Message to ccfiero350Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Very Cool!

I want to be the first to ask are you going to do a set for an 88?

I just recieved last week a pair of Addco's for my 88 gt too.

------------------
yellow 88 GT, not stock
white 88 notchie, 4 banger

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Earl-R
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Report this Post03-25-2007 11:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Earl-RClick Here to Email Earl-RSend a Private Message to Earl-REdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Paul,

What took you so long?

You know I'll take a rear bar for my GT.

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R Runner
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Report this Post03-25-2007 12:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for R RunnerClick Here to visit R Runner's HomePageClick Here to Email R RunnerSend a Private Message to R RunnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

Very Cool!

I want to be the first to ask are you going to do a set for an 88?

I just recieved last week a pair of Addco's for my 88 gt too.



Somehow I knew that would be the first question. I will be working on it at some point, but I want to see if these sell first. I also need to get an '88 to test bars on. The important part is balancing the car. I can doo all the calculations (and have) but it means nothing unless it feels right and puts the performance in the chassis.

Don't worry though. I am thinking about you '88 guys.

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R Runner
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Report this Post03-25-2007 12:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for R RunnerClick Here to visit R Runner's HomePageClick Here to Email R RunnerSend a Private Message to R RunnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

r
 
quote
Originally posted by Earl-R:

Paul,

What took you so long?

You know I'll take a rear bar for my GT.


PM Sent.

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EMX5636
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Report this Post03-25-2007 03:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for EMX5636Click Here to Email EMX5636Send a Private Message to EMX5636Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Hey Paul, Keep us updated on the 88 Stuff... I was told by WCF that the addco front, and stock rear was the best mix without a lot of oversteer... Maybe that will help you out a little. If/when you do mess with an 88, I have a Formula with 400#wcf coilover/spring kit, koni's, full poly, and 17/18 combo with 225-40 and 255-35 nitto 555's.... I think the Performance kit would be good for me, but I can't decide between the performance and competition... Which would you recommend? I do drive the car on the street occasionally, but I would like to autocross and road race over the summers... Thanks,

Justin W

Also, what's the bar cost, like If I went with the Performance Kit and then bought the competition bars... Also, do you include calculations with your kit to the approx spring rate's at each endlink hole? Thanks.


------------------
1988 Fiero Formula 4-spd- 3400sfi custom turbo install with a 60-1. Haltech ECU. Here comes 300+whp
1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX - First time at a track/bad launch....13.1@107
1992 S10 2wd - lowered longbed, bike/quad hauler, contemplating a 4.9 caddy swap

1986 Kawi Ninja 600R - turbo setup this winter
1987 Yamaha Warrior

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R Runner
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Report this Post03-25-2007 07:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for R RunnerClick Here to visit R Runner's HomePageClick Here to Email R RunnerSend a Private Message to R RunnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by EMX5636:
Hey Paul, Keep us updated on the 88 Stuff... I was told by WCF that the addco front, and stock rear was the best mix without a lot of oversteer... Maybe that will help you out a little.


Thanks. Good information.

 
quote

If/when you do mess with an 88, I have a Formula with 400#wcf coilover/spring kit, koni's, full poly, and 17/18 combo with 225-40 and 255-35 nitto 555's.... I think the Performance kit would be good for me, but I can't decide between the performance and competition... Which would you recommend? I do drive the car on the street occasionally, but I would like to autocross and road race over the summers... Thanks,


At this point it is hard to say. Without testing and tuning a car with known changes (or lack there of) figuring the balance is simply guessing. I don't want to do that because you and others may be dissappointed with the results. Long answer to a simple question, but I really need to do some figuring and testing.


 
quote

Also, what's the bar cost, like If I went with the Performance Kit and then bought the competition bars...


The bar by itself is $100 + shipping. So really it's not that bad. I would recommend starting with a matched set first and then selecting a bar change based on feel. (if needed at all). Also if rear performance bar is chosen, it can be used with a front competition bar OR a front sport bar due to its wide adjustment range. Then only one extra bar is needed to significantly change the ride. The rear bars have a much wider adjustment range (and therefore a little less fine tuning).


 
quote

Also, do you include calculations with your kit to the approx spring rate's at each endlink hole? Thanks.


If I understand you correctly, the "spring" rate of the bar is listed in this thread. On the left column of the blue chart, pounds are shown at 5 degrees of twist. These are measured numbers with HHP arms. Arm geometry plays a big factor (as I found out with several other geometries I tried) with the load transfer. I don't know that you really need it, but I could provide you with pounds per deflection for each hole. Again, an arm geometry for the '88 (front and rear) needs to be developed before I start giving you wrong information.


Justin, thanks for the questions.

Paul

[This message has been edited by R Runner (edited 03-25-2007).]

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Ken_86gt
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Report this Post03-25-2007 09:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Ken_86gtClick Here to Email Ken_86gtSend a Private Message to Ken_86gtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Referring to the rear sway bar, any chance you could post pictures of the bar mounted to the car? The reason I ask is that I am running a 3800SC engine and the exhaust is behind the cradle and is likely going to interfere if it is located similar to other "add on" rear sway bars. Can this be mounted to the front of the cradle, this would solve a potential problem for me. Thanks

[This message has been edited by Ken_86gt (edited 03-25-2007).]

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R Runner
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Report this Post03-25-2007 09:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for R RunnerClick Here to visit R Runner's HomePageClick Here to Email R RunnerSend a Private Message to R RunnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Ken_86gt:

Referring to the rear sway bar, any chance you could post pictures of the bar mounted to the car? The reason I ask is that I am running a 3800SC engine and the exhaust is behind the cradle and is likely going to interfere if it is located similar to other "add on" rear sway bars. Can this be mounted to the front of the cradle, this would solve a potential problem for me. Thanks




Yes Sir.

Here is a picture of the rear bar from below the car.


Here is a picture of the front bar from below the car.


At this time I do not have a picture from the back of the car while on the ground. I had one for my old bar, but for some reason haven't taken one of this rear bar yet. As soon as I get my axles back in the blue car I'll take some.

The rear bar cannot be mounted in the front of the cradel. Even if someone figured out a way to do it, I would not recommend it.

Hopefully these pictures help. Thank you and please let me know if you need more information.

[This message has been edited by R Runner (edited 03-25-2007).]

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chrisgtp
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Report this Post03-26-2007 10:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for chrisgtpClick Here to Email chrisgtpSend a Private Message to chrisgtpEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

what if any will this do for bump steer

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Report this Post03-26-2007 11:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero_FreakClick Here to Email Fiero_FreakSend a Private Message to Fiero_FreakEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

It will eliminate it to the extent that it keeps the car level, keeping the suspension from going to the limits where the bumpsteer effect occurs.

I've seen this stuff at the last meeting. It is very substantial stuff. Very beefy and definately quality. If I didn't have to get wheels and tires I would be getting one now.

A+ for the increased ground clearance.

------------------
Dana Mitchell
Member of the Gateway Fiero Club
88 GT Red w/ 5-Speed,86 SE Red w/ Black 3.2L w/ T-440,87 GT Blue w/ 5-Speed, 87 GT Maroon w/ Silver w/ Auto
95 Impala SS, 95 Roadmaster Estate Wagon w/ Air Ride 2-Tone w/ Ghost Flames 07 Silverado Classic Crew Cab 5.3L, 06 HHR (wife's ride), 91 CBR1000F Is that enough?

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Report this Post03-26-2007 01:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kwagnerClick Here to visit kwagner's HomePageSend a Private Message to kwagnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

That looks fantastic!

I was racking my brain for some way to allow adjusting of stiffness of the handling between a touring ride for road trips and the occasional competition run. This looks like a perfect solution!

Once I have fiero money again (curse business expenses!), I'll place an order

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Report this Post03-26-2007 06:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blakeinspaceClick Here to Email blakeinspaceSend a Private Message to blakeinspaceEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Paul, your product looks great, and I know your attention to detail (and the fact that you are your own worst critic!) so I know this is a quality set up.

Just saying all that to say that I will plug these at my local club meetings.

I'd say 75% of the club drives '88's... which is really wierd given their low production numbers, but keeping abreast of product offereings in the Fiero world is important!

Hope Sharon & the girls are well!

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R Runner
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Report this Post03-26-2007 10:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for R RunnerClick Here to visit R Runner's HomePageClick Here to Email R RunnerSend a Private Message to R RunnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

kwagner........ I actually surprised myself while testing. These bars can take a completely stock set up and make the car work SSSOOOOO much better it is amazing. It works even better with some bolt on mods or race setup. Changing the bar isn't too bad once yoiu have done it a few times. I recommend using a pair of ramps. That way the suspension stays in its natural state. It makes working much easier and reduces the chance of damaging other parts.

Dana........ Thank you for the good words. When we get a chance I'll take you for a ride. Promise I won't go as fast as we did in the racecar. If you do decide you want one I'll work out something considering you just purchased the "old" model. I am sure we (or I) can find a buyer considering it is less expensive and people still ask me about them.

Blake...... Thank you too for the good words. The girls are fine and Calista went for her first go kart ride with Daddy. The journey has begun. I need to give you a call some time so we can catch up.

Paul

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R Runner
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Report this Post03-26-2007 10:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for R RunnerClick Here to visit R Runner's HomePageClick Here to Email R RunnerSend a Private Message to R RunnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by chrisgtp:

what if any will this do for bump steer


Fiero_Freak (Dana) is correct. It is not really a correction for bump steer but it will help avoid the conditions that add up to undesireable control issues.

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Report this Post03-27-2007 12:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FierOmarClick Here to Email FierOmarSend a Private Message to FierOmarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

quoting Paul: "These bars are intended for cars with stock A-arm geometry and mounting positions on 1984 to 1987 Fieros."

I realize that these bars are not intended for a Held type bump steer correction kit, but is there any reason why they would not work in conjunction with the RCC bump steer kit.

Also sending a separate email.


------------------
FierOmar

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chrisgtp
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Report this Post03-27-2007 08:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for chrisgtpClick Here to Email chrisgtpSend a Private Message to chrisgtpEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

are you planning a discount for an order of front and back sets?

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R Runner
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Report this Post03-27-2007 08:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for R RunnerClick Here to visit R Runner's HomePageClick Here to Email R RunnerSend a Private Message to R RunnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by FierOmar:

quoting Paul: "These bars are intended for cars with stock A-arm geometry and mounting positions on 1984 to 1987 Fieros."

I realize that these bars are not intended for a Held type bump steer correction kit, but is there any reason why they would not work in conjunction with the RCC bump steer kit.




Could you please post a picture? It may be just fine but I need to look.

Thank you. Paul

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Report this Post03-27-2007 08:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for R RunnerClick Here to visit R Runner's HomePageClick Here to Email R RunnerSend a Private Message to R RunnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by chrisgtp:

are you planning a discount for an order of front and back sets?


Well I would say shipping should be better. Then I noticed that you were in St. Louis. I can save you shipping altogether if you are near me and we can work out a delivery time. Meet at a club meeting or something like that.

As far as the cost of the kits, $320 sounds high per kit, but believe me when I say that I have every bit of that in them. So if we work out a delivery the total for the front and rear kit would be $640.

Thank you,

Paul

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Report this Post03-28-2007 12:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Earl-RClick Here to Email Earl-RSend a Private Message to Earl-REdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by FierOmar:

quoting Paul: "These bars are intended for cars with stock A-arm geometry and mounting positions on 1984 to 1987 Fieros."

I realize that these bars are not intended for a Held type bump steer correction kit, but is there any reason why they would not work in conjunction with the RCC bump steer kit.

Also sending a separate email.


I have the RCC bumpsteer kit on my GT and the kit will not interfer with this sway bar.

[This message has been edited by Earl-R (edited 03-28-2007).]

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FierOmar
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Report this Post03-28-2007 01:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FierOmarClick Here to Email FierOmarSend a Private Message to FierOmarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by R Runner:
Could you please post a picture? It may be just fine but I need to look.

Thank you. Paul


The RCC bump steer kit replaces the tie rod that is used to fix the toe adjustment. As I recall, it reduces the length of that part of the rod that connedts to the steering arm on the spindle by moving the inner pivot point more outwards. The outer part of the system remains the same, and the lower control arms are unchanged.

From RCC Specialty Products website:
"Bump Steer in : The pre 88 Fieros have 1.8 degrees of toe inbump steer at full compression of the strut and 0.6 degrees of bump steer at full extension of the rear strut. This means that each wheel will toe in about 0.44 inches at full compression of the strut.

Compared to the 88 Fiero which has minimal bump steer in the rear, this is certainly one of the causes of the handling instability in the pre 88 Fiero's. Our Bump Steer Kit moves the inboard pivot point of the rear drag link out to eliminate this compression bump steer. The kit has zero degrees of bump steer (+/- 0.3 degree depending on alignment and Pontiac manufacturers tolerance) from full compression of the strut through the first 6 inches of travel. In the last 1 to 1.5 inches of extension travel, the kit will exhibit 1.2 degrees of toe out bump steer, which we deem immaterial since this amount of extension travel will usually be seen only when the car is jacked up for service." See, http://dwayne9.addr.com/fiero.html

We installed a set on the roadster. I'll try to get some photos this weekend.

------------------
FierOmar

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R Runner
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Report this Post03-28-2007 05:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for R RunnerClick Here to visit R Runner's HomePageClick Here to Email R RunnerSend a Private Message to R RunnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

FierOmar.......

Maybe this picture helps:



Paul

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kwagner
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Report this Post03-28-2007 08:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for kwagnerClick Here to visit kwagner's HomePageSend a Private Message to kwagnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
The ONLY change that is necessary is to purchase a BAR for the rear. You already have the other hardware (arms, mounts, end links, etc…).


So say I initially buy a set of front and back touring or sport bars for $640, and get them installed. If I later want to buy just the competition bars for some racing, how much would just the new set of bars cost me, as opposed to the whole kit?

Also, have you posted this to the yahoo fiero racing list? I'm sure there would be some interested parties on there.

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chrisgtp
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Report this Post03-28-2007 10:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for chrisgtpClick Here to Email chrisgtpSend a Private Message to chrisgtpEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

ok as soon as i get the swap up and running i think ill come buy and pay you a visit

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Doug Chase
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Report this Post03-28-2007 02:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Doug ChaseSend a Private Message to Doug ChaseEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Hi Paul,

Looks like you've really done your homework here and come up with a nice product at a reasonable price. Good work.

------------------
Doug Chase
Chase Race
Custom: cages, exhausts, fabrication
Duvall, WA
425-269-5636

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Fiero_Freak
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Report this Post03-28-2007 05:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero_FreakClick Here to Email Fiero_FreakSend a Private Message to Fiero_FreakEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by kwagner:


So say I initially buy a set of front and back touring or sport bars for $640, and get them installed. If I later want to buy just the competition bars for some racing, how much would just the new set of bars cost me, as opposed to the whole kit?

Also, have you posted this to the yahoo fiero racing list? I'm sure there would be some interested parties on there.


Up top I think he says they are $100 a bar. Now with the adjust abliity you can get the middle of of the road and run the lowest settings on the street and the highest on the track.

You can actually mix bars as well and still get them to balance. Depending on the numbers ( I would get some advice from Paul) but you may be able to get one of one type and one of another, and then just pick up one addtional $100 bar later and make it work.

Good luck........I'll probably be waiting on the 88 stuff. Paul maybe I could leave my car out there for you to stare at.

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I wear pants
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Report this Post03-28-2007 10:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for I wear pantsClick Here to Email I wear pantsSend a Private Message to I wear pantsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

These look like a really sweet design. I've got to say it is innovators like you that keep the fiero aftermarket going for us since it is such a limited market. A set of these are definitly on my to buy list once I start spending some cash on my car in the next year or two.

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R Runner
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Report this Post03-28-2007 10:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for R RunnerClick Here to visit R Runner's HomePageClick Here to Email R RunnerSend a Private Message to R RunnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by kwagner:
So say I initially buy a set of front and back touring or sport bars for $640, and get them installed. If I later want to buy just the competition bars for some racing, how much would just the new set of bars cost me, as opposed to the whole kit?


If you purchase a front and rear kit ($640 not shipped) then a new rear bar of your choosing is $100 and a new front bar of your choosing is $100. You are correct. You could have a completely adjustable touring set for the street and a completely adjustable competition set for the track for a total of $840 (again not shipped) Having said that, Fiero_Freak makes a good point. This is the reason I posted the (confusing) chart. You could choose a bar (like the performance rear bar) that covers a wide range of adjustments (310# to 480#). At the low end it is not quite as soft as a touring bar, but at the high end it could perform like a competition bar (again see the chart for exact range). In this case you could get ALL of the equipment for $740 (pre-shipping).

Personally I think the Sport Rear Bar is the best choice because it covers a wide range of settings. If you car will be on the street 98% of the time this would make the most sense. The only time you really need a competition set up is when you are running low profile slicks and demand serious amounts of limited body roll. On normal tires you sill start to feel the sidewalls roll under the rim LONG before the car leans.

Does that help?


 
quote

Also, have you posted this to the yahoo fiero racing list? I'm sure there would be some interested parties on there.


I haven't posted yet, but some of them have found it already. It is a good idea. Thank you.

Paul

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R Runner
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Report this Post03-28-2007 10:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for R RunnerClick Here to visit R Runner's HomePageClick Here to Email R RunnerSend a Private Message to R RunnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by chrisgtp:

ok as soon as i get the swap up and running i think ill come buy and pay you a visit


No problem. Just let me know and we can set something up.

Paul

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kwagner
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Report this Post03-28-2007 11:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kwagnerClick Here to visit kwagner's HomePageSend a Private Message to kwagnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by R Runner:
You could choose a bar (like the performance rear bar) that covers a wide range of adjustments (310# to 480#). At the low end it is not quite as soft as a touring bar, but at the high end it could perform like a competition bar (again see the chart for exact range). In this case you could get ALL of the equipment for $740 (pre-shipping).


Sorry, missed the part about $100/bar (and forgot to include shipping). The chart is still confusing me some, I've rewritten this post a few times trying to ask some questions about it but they just aren't coming out right. I'll have to study it some more. I do get your point about tires flexing first, though, "path of least resistance" and all that. My project car would ideally be getting two sets of tires, one for normal driving and one for racing sessions. I'd say racing vs driving of that car would be around 25/75.

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Earl-R
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Report this Post03-29-2007 03:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Earl-RClick Here to Email Earl-RSend a Private Message to Earl-REdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by kwagner:


Sorry, missed the part about $100/bar (and forgot to include shipping). The chart is still confusing me some, I've rewritten this post a few times trying to ask some questions about it but they just aren't coming out right. I'll have to study it some more. I do get your point about tires flexing first, though, "path of least resistance" and all that. My project car would ideally be getting two sets of tires, one for normal driving and one for racing sessions. I'd say racing vs driving of that car would be around 25/75.


Let me take a crack at this for you.

You can get 4 different bars for this set-up. Each bar has a different rating of twisting resistance. Then you have 6 adjustment holes to attach the links from the control arm to the bar that give you less or more resistance depending on the setting you use.

So say I want to own two bars, one I use for every day driving which would be say the touring bar(black line), and then on weekends I want to do some serious road racing I might want a competion bar(red line) so the car doesn't lean and keeps a flat stance going into turns hard at the apex. You can change out to different bars fairly quick front and rear. On the chart you see the differnce between the black line and the red line and the different rating. The sloping line is the combination of the different bars and the different link positions.

Another example which is what I'm doing is I'm buying just the rear bar. I'm buying the Sport bar (Blue Line) which I can adjust for my driving style. I have a Addco bar on the front already gives me about 250 on the front. I can now adjust the rear bar from 260 to 425 lbs for normal driving and racing by adjusting the link location in one of the 6 holes. So on race day I set it to 425 on the rear, and the front is at 250, the front bar now has a little more give than the rear. In hard turns the front tires will bite a little bit more and the rear at 425 will want to drift on me a little so I can orient the car coming out of a turn so I can get on the gas faster. Also with a stiffer rear bar your not going to have as much problem with bumpsteer because the car will ride flatter. This doesn't allow the car to lean so that one side of the car will have the rear wheel turn in a little. The flatter the car rides the less prone the car will be to bumpsteer, depending on shocks and spring rate as well. I also run Koni shocks all the way around so I can adjust rate of travel with them as well. But it's the sway bar that keeps the car from leaning to hard if you don't want it to.

The chart with the horiizontal lines are for the front bars which only have three adjustment postions. As Paul was saying you might want to match up front and rear bars to achieve a balance, but it also depends on you driving style if your going to race.

As far as tires, I look more at the rubber compound than I do at sidewall flex. For racing I want a softer rubber for traction. A good all around tire is the Michelin. Good all season tire and a good race tire. If you want two sets, the race tire I would go with is Kumho. Good rubber compund and not to hard on the wallet for tires your going to seriously abuse.

[This message has been edited by Earl-R (edited 03-29-2007).]

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kwagner
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Report this Post03-29-2007 07:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for kwagnerClick Here to visit kwagner's HomePageSend a Private Message to kwagnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks, that's some helpful info. Ok, let me take a second crack at it after getting a good night's sleep If I had just the sport bars, I could set the rear at position 1 for competition and position 6 for normal driving. If the front bar was also a sport one, then at either extreme the overall car would be past the balance point (which looks like between position 3 and 4 on the rear bar, depending on where the front is set). In my thinking, this would mean I could either adjust the rear for oversteer (if the front flexed more than the rear, the rear should slide easier, right?) or too much flex.

After looking at the chart again, I think my concern is a single front bar wouldn't allow a good amount of adjusting for competition use while still being tolerable in normal driving. if I were to purchase a single rear bar (the performance one for example), but two FRONT bars instead (the competition and the sport), then I should have two separate sets of points to achieve balance depending on what I want to do. With the sport front on for normal driving, I could set the performance rear bar between position 4 and 6 to get the balance point. When racing, swap in the competition front bar, and I can set the rear position between 1 and 3 and hit the balance point. That should give me what I'm looking for, I think. I think this is what Paul and fiero_freak were trying to explain, but I didn't see it at the time (It didn't occur to me that you could mix and match colors on the chart, don't know why).

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jstricker
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Report this Post03-29-2007 09:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jstrickerClick Here to Email jstrickerSend a Private Message to jstrickerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Since I have the RCC kit on the Finale, and looking at the pictures, there isn't any reason I can see that it won't work with the RCC kit. We have a stock front bar mounted on the back of the Finale and it works just fine, and it appears that Paul's bar should also work just fine with the kit as well.

One thing I have to mention that people are thinking since I've heard it about the stock front bar mounted in back......."If those end links break the car will be a like a pole vaulter..."

Well, yes and no. First off, breaking ONE link will immediately unload the other one and allow the bar to simply rotate freely in the bushings remaining attached on one side, so the arms won't just "fall down" and hit the pavement.........assuming it will ever break anyway. Think about it, when was the last time you BROKE the links on your front sway bar? If the links are mounted correctly, the chances of failure are two......slim and none.

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by FierOmar:

quoting Paul: "These bars are intended for cars with stock A-arm geometry and mounting positions on 1984 to 1987 Fieros."

I realize that these bars are not intended for a Held type bump steer correction kit, but is there any reason why they would not work in conjunction with the RCC bump steer kit.

Also sending a separate email.



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Report this Post03-29-2007 11:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ChopTopClick Here to Email ChopTopSend a Private Message to ChopTopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Quick question, I have Super Bell dropped spindles on my 85GT, would your product work for mine?
Just remembered, I also have t-tops, so I have to wonder if this set-up would benefit me at all?

[This message has been edited by ChopTop (edited 03-29-2007).]

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kennn
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Report this Post03-29-2007 11:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for kennnClick Here to Email kennnSend a Private Message to kennnEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Paul, your product looks very well worked out and is very appealing. Put me in the '88 category waiting on your developing a product for it. I am a little confused by your statement below, however. Isn't the term "loose" used to indicate an "oversteer" condition, and "tight" or "push" used to indicate "understeer"?

< The cool part is you can change this. Now let’s say you decide you like the car to be set up a little more loose (understeer for you technical term guys…). No problem. Change the rear bar arm hole position to # 1 or #2.
But wait, now you want to compete in autocross on the weekend. If you purchase an HHP front kit with a competition bar, the sway rate in the front is FAR more than before. We are taking 450 lb ish. The ONLY change that is necessary is to purchase a BAR for the rear. You already have the other hardware (arms, mounts, end links, etc…). Oh yea, and you can put the softer bars back on for a soft ride after race day.>

Ken

------------------
'88 Formula V6
'88 GT TPI V8

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THE BEAST
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Report this Post03-29-2007 03:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for THE BEASTClick Here to Email THE BEASTSend a Private Message to THE BEASTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Please put me down for the 88 list.

I did a bit of reading last night "Handling what it is and how to get it" great book, especially since the author often puts the Fiero up high with his comments.

The bottom line is that most of the handling is to be gained or lost with tires width sizes and the correct sway bars...now the problem is that there is only one up size sway bar is available for the 88’s Fiero aftermarket and that adjustments of such kind can get a bit more tricky and picky (with my N* engine conversion) as far as the size needed, which in my case is likely that I might not even need the one size offered by the aftermarket, but something slightly bigger or even smaller. So I thought about adjustable sway bars, but right immediately I thought to myself I did not think we have anything like this available for Fieros yet, and today I opened my email and I see your email about this and what a great surprise this is!

I'll be watching this thread up close!

JG

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R Runner
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Report this Post03-29-2007 06:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for R RunnerClick Here to visit R Runner's HomePageClick Here to Email R RunnerSend a Private Message to R RunnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ChopTop:

Quick question, I have Super Bell dropped spindles on my 85GT, would your product work for mine?
Just remembered, I also have t-tops, so I have to wonder if this set-up would benefit me at all?



Can you please PM or email me a picture?

Thank you.

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R Runner
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Report this Post03-29-2007 06:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for R RunnerClick Here to visit R Runner's HomePageClick Here to Email R RunnerSend a Private Message to R RunnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Earl-R .......... Well put. Thank you.

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Report this Post03-29-2007 06:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for R RunnerClick Here to visit R Runner's HomePageClick Here to Email R RunnerSend a Private Message to R RunnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by kennn:

Paul, your product looks very well worked out and is very appealing. Put me in the '88 category waiting on your developing a product for it. I am a little confused by your statement below, however. Isn't the term "loose" used to indicate an "oversteer" condition, and "tight" or "push" used to indicate "understeer"?

< The cool part is you can change this. Now let’s say you decide you like the car to be set up a little more loose (understeer for you technical term guys…). No problem. Change the rear bar arm hole position to # 1 or #2.
But wait, now you want to compete in autocross on the weekend. If you purchase an HHP front kit with a competition bar, the sway rate in the front is FAR more than before. We are taking 450 lb ish. The ONLY change that is necessary is to purchase a BAR for the rear. You already have the other hardware (arms, mounts, end links, etc…). Oh yea, and you can put the softer bars back on for a soft ride after race day.>

Ken




You are correct, Ken. I'll change it. Thank you. (See this forum thing really works!)

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Report this Post03-29-2007 06:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GonsaiPKSend a Private Message to GonsaiPKEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Whoa, this looks great. My biggest problem with moving the stock front bar to the rear was the reduced ground clearance. I've definately got to pick up a set when I get around to the suspension on my car.

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