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LS2 + 6T75 Build by Dan86GT
Started on: 10-21-2011 10:55 PM
Replies: 230 (21233 views)
Last post by: tampalinc on 07-14-2017 10:45 AM
Dan86GT
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Report this Post10-21-2011 10:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dan86GTSend a Private Message to Dan86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

And so it begins...

The car is an 86GT.

Engine is a 6.0L from a Trailblazer SS. I took the truck manifold off and replaced it with a car manifold. The oil pan and the front cover is from an LS4. I don't think I am going to use the water pump from the LS4. I may build a piece that will accomodate a thermostat, heater bypass, and plumbing connections to an electric water pump.

The transmission is a GM 6-speed automatic - the 6T75. Does anyone else know if this has been put in a Fiero before?

Current status:



-Dan

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MountainHiBlue87GT
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Report this Post10-21-2011 11:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MountainHiBlue87GTSend a Private Message to MountainHiBlue87GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

cool, but avoid electrical water pump

------------------
1987 Fiero GT - 2006 3800 Series III Drive by Wire; Ported & Polished by TrippleEdge; 1.7 Yella Terra Full Roller Rockers; VS Cam; Tuning by Darth; WCF CAI & 1 5/8 Stainless Headers, 3" Exhaust, Power Steering & Much More; MSD Coils & Wires; Porsche (Brembo) Calipers on 13" Viper Rotors; 18X8 TSW Indy Wheels; Paint by Phoenix Auto in California City.

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MstangsBware
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Report this Post10-21-2011 11:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MstangsBwareClick Here to Email MstangsBwareSend a Private Message to MstangsBwareEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The swap with the 6 speed auto has not been done. A friend was working on an adapter plate for this swap a few years back but unsure how far he got on it.....

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Dan86GT
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Report this Post10-21-2011 11:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dan86GTSend a Private Message to Dan86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

What has been your experience with an electric water pump?

Dan

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MstangsBware
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Report this Post10-21-2011 11:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MstangsBwareClick Here to Email MstangsBwareSend a Private Message to MstangsBwareEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Dan86GT:

What has been your experience with an electric water pump?

Dan


Nothing wrong with using an electric pump....many have used them with no issues...I even thought about iit on mg LS4 swap but just used the stock setup....

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Report this Post10-22-2011 02:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CowsPatootClick Here to visit CowsPatoot's HomePageSend a Private Message to CowsPatootEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by MountainHiBlue87GT:

cool, but avoid electrical water pump



I am also curious as to why. I only have experience with one electric one, and it left me wanting to go to electric for all my vehicles.

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Report this Post10-22-2011 08:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Where in VA are you?

The Archie adapter plate should work fine with the 6t75, if your trans is using the Metric bellhousing and came off a 3.5 or 3.9 V6 car. The real problem is going to be the electronics/programming side of things, with that combo.

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fieroguru
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Report this Post10-22-2011 08:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Sounds like a very good project!

If you use the LS4 oil pan, you probably want to block off the oil bypass it has for DoD.

You probabaly want to start with and ecm/tranny controller for the transmission with the ecm from the same family as some of the V8's. Several of the LS4 guys on LS1 Tech have looked into this conversion and haven't gotten past the electronics of transmission control yet. Maybe there is more vendor support now than a year or two ago.
http://ls1tech.com/forums/l...ed-conversion-3.html
http://ls1tech.com/forums/l...ns-conversion-3.html

Since the 6T75 is physically similar in shape/format to a manual transmission (differential output on passenger side is flush with the bellhousing), then you can probably adapt an Archie adapter/starter setup to keep the starter on the engine side. My starter solution for the LS4/F40 (or the LS4 starter location in general) will not work due to the transmission front cover/ being right where the LS4 starter normally goes.



Here is the LS4 starter location... notice the back side of the starter will be well into the area occupied on the 6T75 valve body/front cover housing.



The other starter option would be to place a starter under the oil pan either using the prototype LS4 pan (or a modified LS4 or LS2 GTO pan - but both of these will require modification). Here is the LS4 prototype pan:



GTO oil pan:


LS4 oil pan:

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dobey
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Report this Post10-22-2011 08:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Oh. Just saw your mention of the LS4 front cover and oil pan. You probably don't want to do that. The C6 Vette oil pan is a much better choice, and what I'm using on my LS4 that I'm deleting the DoD from. Also, depending on which ECM/program you are using the control the thing, the LS4 front cover has the cam sensor 180 degrees off from where the normal LS sensor is, to clear the offset and tightly packaged water manifold the LS4 has.

Also, if it's from a Trailblazer SS, I guess it's probably the LQ9 (iron block) engine, insead of an LS2 (assuming the SS didn't have a real LS2 swapped in, but it looks like you have the truck intake turned around backwards there). What is the casting number on your heads? Did it come with the LS4 cover/pan already installed?

If you're anywhere reasonably close to Newport News, I hope you make it to the Fall Clasic show at Newport News Park today. You can see a couple of LS376/480 swaps, and chat with some of us about various V8 swap details.

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post10-22-2011 10:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

My TBSS has a LS2 in it.

Also, the 6T75 trans will probably not run with an aftermarket controller.

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dratts
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Report this Post10-22-2011 11:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for drattsClick Here to Email drattsSend a Private Message to drattsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Hope it works for you. I've looked at the 6T75 too. Are there any upgrades available like there are to the 4T65 due mostly to GMs racing program?

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MstangsBware
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Report this Post10-22-2011 11:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MstangsBwareClick Here to Email MstangsBwareSend a Private Message to MstangsBwareEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:

My TBSS has a LS2 in it.

Also, the 6T75 trans will probably not run with an aftermarket controller.


There was a company a few years back working on a BETA version controller for this trans...Unsure if they ever completed this or not....

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Report this Post10-22-2011 02:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Looking forward to this!

------------------
Raydar
88 Formula IMSA Fastback. 4.9, NVG T550

Praise the Lowered!

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Report this Post10-22-2011 02:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for infinitewillSend a Private Message to infinitewillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

.

[This message has been edited by infinitewill (edited 01-05-2016).]

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Dan86GT
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Report this Post10-22-2011 08:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dan86GTSend a Private Message to Dan86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote


Also, if it's from a Trailblazer SS, I guess it's probably the LQ9 (iron block) engine, insead of an LS2 (assuming the SS didn't have a real LS2 swapped in, but it looks like you have the truck intake turned around backwards there). What is the casting number on your heads? Did it come with the LS4 cover/pan already installed?

If you're anywhere reasonably close to Newport News, I hope you make it to the Fall Clasic show at Newport News Park today. You can see a couple of LS376/480 swaps, and chat with some of us about various V8 swap details.


Count me in for the Fall Classic next year (hopefully with a functioning 6T75...). The block is aluminum. I will post casting numbers on Monday so we can take a look at exactly what I have. I have an LS4 as a donor engine. I swapped the cover and pan, but I may be changing the pan based on what people are suggesting. The intake in the picture I think is actually from a LS6. It is just on there for mockup. Not sure what will be there when it runs.

As for the trans controller I think I am ok....... I am an engineer at Powertrain Control Solutions (PCS). We make the controller for countless engine-swapped Fieros (Don Kraus' monster has one). We have been developing a controller for the new 6 speed automatics for quite some time. Before we can release the 6T70/75 controller to the aftermarket we want to be 100% sure that we have a solution that the average car guy can use. A big piece of the puzzle with this trans is torque management. So we needed a project that was a powerful engine coupled to a transverse transmission.......Fiero - of course! I decided to chronicle the build on the forum so I could get your real-time feedback and make sure we are on the right path.

This transmission is probably going to be shredded with the power from a stock LS2 without proper torque management. I am not going to initially do anything to the engine. Once we have everything working, I will worry about cam, heads, etc.

I hope also that since the control issue will be overcome, the aftermarket will make some performance parts to make these trans stronger. I plan on documenting everything here so we will all see what breaks first on the trans. In the end I hope that anyone can grab this modern 6-speed trans and have some fun.

We'll see....

Dan

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dobey
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Report this Post10-22-2011 08:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Ah, OK. So you're way up North of Richmond.

Sorry, yeah, you guys are right. It is an LS2, but with truck intake and different oil pan it seems. And it also seems like a lot of TB SSes got the #799 heads instead of the #243. Though, there are also a lot of reports of this happening on 07 MY LS2 Vettes built in 09/2006 and 10/2006. Bit odd, that, since the #799 were typically used on the iron truck motors. Of course the Trailblazer is a bit of an oddball in that area it seems.

Anyway, I hope you get a solution working soon for the 6 speed auto transmissions.

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Report this Post10-22-2011 09:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

That is so cool that you're using a Fiero to develop new hot rod hardware! Looking forward to seeing this swap take shape.

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Report this Post10-22-2011 09:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NiterrorzSend a Private Message to NiterrorzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

ive been lookin forward to someone trying a 6T75 tranny as its very compact for an automatic and should be able to hold mucho hp/tq. ill be watching this build thread closely.

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Report this Post10-23-2011 01:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Dan86GT:

This transmission is probably going to be shredded with the power from a stock LS2 without proper torque management. I am not going to initially do anything to the engine. Once we have everything working, I will worry about cam, heads, etc.

I hope also that since the control issue will be overcome, the aftermarket will make some performance parts to make these trans stronger. I plan on documenting everything here so we will all see what breaks first on the trans. In the end I hope that anyone can grab this modern 6-speed trans and have some fun.

We'll see....

Dan


Unless you forsee this trans being significantly weaker than a 4t65e.. you will not have any problems.

I ran with MUCH more power than a LS2 on a stock 4t65e with only a bit of torque management in place for years without issues on a stock trans.

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qwikgta
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Report this Post10-23-2011 10:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for qwikgtaClick Here to Email qwikgtaSend a Private Message to qwikgtaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Glad to see another LS engined Fiero in the Commonwealth. Maybe the VAFA club can take a road trip up to see your build. Update you thead often and take lots of pics

Rob


------------------


88 Coupe, CJB T-TOP, LS376 and a GT clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAH9yjw6XR0

[This message has been edited by qwikgta (edited 06-21-2015).]

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Will
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Report this Post10-24-2011 11:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:

Unless you forsee this trans being significantly weaker than a 4t65e.. you will not have any problems.
I ran with MUCH more power than a LS2 on a stock 4t65e with only a bit of torque management in place for years without issues on a stock trans.


The shifting strategies of the 4 speed and 6 speed are very different. The clutch-to-clutch architecture needs torque management more than the 4 speed architecture.

Should be a fun project if you have access to the ability to fully tune the transmission. The Fiero is the perfect platform to test FWD durability, because it has immensely more traction than a FWD chassis.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-24-2011).]

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Dan86GT
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Report this Post10-24-2011 07:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dan86GTSend a Private Message to Dan86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


The shifting strategies of the 4 speed and 6 speed are very different. The clutch-to-clutch architecture needs torque management more than the 4 speed architecture.



100% correct. One bad shift with a 4T65 and you can make adjustments. One bad shift with a 6T75 and you are shopping for a new trans.


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Dan86GT
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Report this Post10-24-2011 07:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dan86GTSend a Private Message to Dan86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

Sorry, yeah, you guys are right. It is an LS2, but with truck intake and different oil pan it seems. And it also seems like a lot of TB SSes got the #799 heads instead of the #243. Though, there are also a lot of reports of this happening on 07 MY LS2 Vettes built in 09/2006 and 10/2006. Bit odd, that, since the #799 were typically used on the iron truck motors. Of course the Trailblazer is a bit of an oddball in that area it seems.


The heads are the #243's. Like I said earlier, I am going to get the trans figured out and then rebuild the motor, probably swapping the cam and heads....

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Dan86GT
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Report this Post10-24-2011 08:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dan86GTSend a Private Message to Dan86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

So instead of modifying the LS4 water pump assemby I decided to design a manifold that could accept -12AN fitting inlets, incorporate a heater bypass, and allow a SBC thermostat housing to bolt right up.

Something like...





The red is the engine block. The purple is what I plan on making, the gray is the lid. The light blue is an off-the-shelf thermostat housing. The heater bypass is a -10AN fitting. It exits to the front of the car. I am also going to have a plug on the top of it for bleeding.

So I threw this into the 3D printer and got...



Bolted to the block...







I can actually make it about 3/8" tighter to the front cover. I want to make this as narrow as possible. Obviously the lid is not shown in the pictures. I also noticed that the head actually protrudes the front of the block. I will have to cut the back of the area around the heater bypass to clear it.

Next step is to bolt on the lid, thermostat housing and see how everything fits in the car. Actually first I need to deal with the motorplate and starter...

Dan

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dobey
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Report this Post10-24-2011 08:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Forget the trans controller. Make some nice LS water manifolds with fill necks on the rear for a Fiero!

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Dan86GT
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Report this Post10-26-2011 08:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dan86GTSend a Private Message to Dan86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

This is the initial design for the motorplate.



The starter has its own bracket that bolts through the trans and threads into the motor plate. The starter is the purple piece (only the important section is drawn).





The starter is going to go in a pocket on the transmission. Cutting the bell is required. A shorter shift arm is also required but that should be no big deal.







After the initial fit I see a few things that need to be modified but nothing too major. I should have the threaded inserts for the starter bracket tomorrow so hopefully it won't bee too long before I can see how the starter is going to align with the flexplate.

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Report this Post10-26-2011 08:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

It almost looks like GM designed the 6T75 for the LS4 starter... or at least they left a pocket for it to fit in.

Keep up the good work!

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Dan86GT
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Report this Post10-26-2011 08:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dan86GTSend a Private Message to Dan86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

It almost looks like GM designed the 6T75 for the LS4 starter... or at least they left a pocket for it to fit in.



Indeed! Lucky for us!

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Report this Post10-26-2011 09:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

It almost looks like GM designed the 6T75 for the LS4 starter... or at least they left a pocket for it to fit in.

Keep up the good work!


It looks like Dan is using a 6t75 from a HFV6 car. On the Metric pattern version, it looks like using the "pocket" on the trans would require cutting out one of the mounting holes at the top of the trans. That probably wouldn't be a good choice if one was hoping to mount it up to an LS4.

EDIT: Also, even if you did cut off the tab to mount the LS4 starter there, the starter itself would interfere with the block I think. There is a small area in the LS4 block casting where the nose of the starter would normally interfere, but is removed for the starter location on the LS4's 4t65e transmission.

[This message has been edited by dobey (edited 10-26-2011).]

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Report this Post10-27-2011 12:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Are the axles on the two (70 and 75) 6 speed auto's the same?

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 10-27-2011).]

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Report this Post10-28-2011 10:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Will this transmission control module work with the E40 and E67 ecms?

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Dan86GT
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Report this Post10-28-2011 12:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dan86GTSend a Private Message to Dan86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Will this transmission control module work with the E40 and E67 ecms?


Yes. The TCM is designed to be standalone. We want people to be able to use it behind any engine/ecm combination, even carbureted engines, electric motors, etc. Each engine configuration is going to have its own way of dealing with the torque management issue. We are planning on putting several different ECU's on this build to make sure we have everything covered.

Dan

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Report this Post10-28-2011 12:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Dan86GT:
Yes. The TCM is designed to be standalone. We want people to be able to use it behind any engine/ecm combination, even carbureted engines, electric motors, etc. Each engine configuration is going to have its own way of dealing with the torque management issue. We are planning on putting several different ECU's on this build to make sure we have everything covered.

Dan


The factory LS2 runs on the E67 ECM (though I suppose that my be different for the TBSS, not sure). So I presume you're starting with getting that one running first?

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Dan86GT
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Report this Post10-28-2011 07:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dan86GTSend a Private Message to Dan86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Overall the motor plate worked. One of the starter holes didn't line up perfectly so I made a quick two-piece motor plate just to test the rest of functionality. I had to shim the starter precisely "one thick washer" for it to mesh properly.

Here's the "hey look the starter works" video.

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Report this Post10-29-2011 01:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

looks like this would be cake for a 3800 or a 60* motor, how much does a 6t75 weigh?

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Report this Post10-29-2011 08:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

looks like this would be cake for a 3800 or a 60* motor, how much does a 6t75 weigh?


It would be, since the 6t70/75 are available with the Metric pattern, as they come behind some 3.5/3.9 High Value V6 engines.

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81 4.9L X-11
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Report this Post10-29-2011 09:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 81 4.9L X-11Click Here to visit 81 4.9L X-11's HomePageClick Here to Email 81 4.9L X-11Send a Private Message to 81 4.9L X-11Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Hi Dan, look'n good!

I'm interested in the water manifold, you plan to offer them or share the CAD drawings?

Cheers

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dobey
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Report this Post10-29-2011 10:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

BTW, Dan, I sent you a PM. Don't know if you saw it.

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Dan86GT
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Report this Post10-29-2011 09:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dan86GTSend a Private Message to Dan86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by 81 4.9L X-11:

I'm interested in the water manifold, you plan to offer them or share the CAD drawings?



I hadn't really considered it until I received inquiries from this thread. I am sure we can work something out. The first step is to test a working prototype. I want to make sure the flow is decent, the thermostat works like I think it should, and overcome any unknowns that arise. Plus all those AN fittings are expensive (not to mention the solid brick of billet this is machined from). So for now, let's see if it works. I am sure the design will get refined as we go. I also appreciate any feedback other Fiero guys on this forum have for improvements. When we have something that is worth sharing we can talk and figure out how to move forward that works best for everyone.

Does that sound Ok?

Dan

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Dan86GT
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Report this Post10-29-2011 10:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dan86GTSend a Private Message to Dan86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

BTW, Dan, I sent you a PM. Don't know if you saw it.


PM sent.

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