According to the article, the advantage is that the Prius unit has a fail safe mode that causes the unit to act as though the car is doing 43 mph, which eliminates the need for a vehicle speed sensor signal and makes it a stand-alone adaptation (once it's hooked to power sources).
I have thought about this a lot lately. I just helped a friend replace his EPS in his Taurus. These things are pretty simple in design, its just finding the best one to work with.
I did some research on this a couple of years ago when I did my EPS conversion. The Prius unit is a little smaller than the Vue unit I used, so it has that going for it ( especially for a manual car). The Saturn Vue conversion is well documented, and that swayed my choice. Using the threads here on PFF, I was able to install with no issues. Cost is moderate, compared to doing F-body hydraulic swap. I installed one of Bruno's variable controllers, with a three position toggle switch. Allows on the fly Low, Med, or High assist. The stock one, where you set once, would probably work OK, as I tended to leave mine on the Mid point all the time.
------------------ '87 GT , '00 3800 Series II SC, 4t65e, Vue Power Steering. (SOLD)
This guy put a Nissan electric power steering unit in his '64 Falcon. He has a whole series of videos showing different EPS setups that operate in fail safe mode. Fail safe mode allows the unit to operate without having to communicate with the car's computer.
He converted his Falcon to rack and pinion and then added the EPS. In the video he demonstrates turning the steering wheel with one finger.
Thanks, darbysan. Great job on the installation and write-up.
Would you recommend adding EPS to other Fiero owners? I've never driven a Fiero so I have no frame of reference.
Would I recommend it - yes! Is it a hotly debated topic- Yes! I found the turning forces necessary to drive around town, coupled with trying to shift, etc, was too much for me. If you have larger tires, that also adds to the problem. If you have a spouse that also drives the Fiero, I think they will also appreciate the improvement.
With the adjustments available to modulate the amount of Power Steering effort available, you can adjust it to your liking. Doing the Electric PS conversion was much cheaper than the Hydraulic style of PS conversion, and does not require a re-alignment after install. It is a hassle working up under the dash, and does require some welding, but still easily doable in a weekend.
------------------ '87 GT , '00 3800 Series II SC, 4t65e, Vue Power Steering. (SOLD)
Fantastic. Thank you. I don't have any interest in the hydraulic version, for various reasons, mostly because I don't want to clutter up my Quad 4 any more than absolutely necessary. When I saw that Hot Rod article about EPS I thought, dang, that looks like a great solution.
I like the idea of using the setup that doesn't require the unit to speak to the car's computer, plus finding Priuses/Corollas/Nissans with the right unit at my favorite salvage will be easy. And I'm always looking for an excuse to MIG weld something.
The Prius running in Limp Home mode will not have as much power assist as it would normally provide. It is still some assist, but not normal. The Vue unit does not talk to the computer, but uses an inexpensive module available on ebay that simulates normal operation. Those controllers are available in several different formats, to give adjust-ability to the power levels. One other thing to consider is the quality of the excellent write-ups on the PFF site, specific to the Fiero. It sure made it easy for me, not to have to do a lot of engineering work.
On the positive side, if you have a manual car, the Prius unit is slightly smaller, and may fit better. And if you choose to go the Prius route, please take lots of pictures and write up your experience for the other folks here on the site.
Oh, one of those links features content from the same guy I linked to.
A while back I promised myself to make getting my car on the road a priority, which means paint, interior and Quad 4 swap, and not diving into any major projects for it until it's been on the road for a while. EPS qualifies as that kind of project, but it's still fascinating to me.
IMO the original power steering design that was to be used on the Fiero (and dropped) ended up on the Saturn's. That unit uses a separate electric pump probably making an install easier.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
IMO the original power steering design that was to be used on the Fiero (and dropped) ended up on the Saturn's. That unit uses a separate electric pump probably making an install easier.
Hey Dennis, not to take this off tracks, but which Saturn(s) had an electric pump?
I've been giving this a lot of thought and it occurred to me that I was already planning to use an aftermarket VSS to make my Fiero's speedometer work with my Quad 4/Getrag swap. I imagine I could use that signal to communicate with an EPS from a GM car.
My brother drives an '08 HHR and had to replace the EPS motor once, which he later found out was under recall. HHRs are probably the single most common vehicle at my favorite salvage yard, too.
I've been giving this a lot of thought and it occurred to me that I was already planning to use an aftermarket VSS to make my Fiero's speedometer work with my Quad 4/Getrag swap. I imagine I could use that signal to communicate with an EPS from a GM car.
My brother drives an '08 HHR and had to replace the EPS motor once, which he later found out was under recall. HHRs are probably the single most common vehicle at my favorite salvage yard, too.
You can save yourself a lot of hassle by using the $20 controller off Ebay for the Saturn Vue EPS, and using the excellent write-up on modifying the Fiero and Saturn EPS to work together. Otherwise, you will have to do a considerable amount of engineering. For example, most modern cars use a CAN-BUS network to transfer info, so the VSS signal may be encoded, and will likely be different than a stock VSS signal we are used to working with. I don't know that this is the case, but just an example of one of the things you will have to work out.
------------------ '87 GT , '00 3800 Series II SC, 4t65e, Vue Power Steering. (SOLD)
EPS motor to the shaft has already been successfully done. Engineering to make it work successful. Electric Power rack not done, mostly because there has not been identified a rack that turns in the same direction as the Fiero, that would fit, that has been successfully installed. Installing new rack requires re-alignment of the front end, an additional expense. That being said, if someone had done this, and it was easy ( minimal welding, machining, etc) I would agree that it's easier than working under the dash.
------------------ '87 GT , '00 3800 Series II SC, 4t65e, Vue Power Steering. (SOLD)
So far the only GM vehicle I can find with the motor on the rack and the tie rod ends in front of the knuckles is the late-model GM Colorado/Canyon pickup.
Would I recommend it - yes! Is it a hotly debated topic- Yes! I found the turning forces necessary to drive around town, coupled with trying to shift, etc, was too much for me. If you have larger tires, that also adds to the problem. If you have a spouse that also drives the Fiero, I think they will also appreciate the improvement.
Another situation where power steering would really be appreciated on a Fiero is while autocrossing, especially on a tight twisty course!
Another situation where power steering would really be appreciated on a Fiero is while autocrossing, especially on a tight twisty course!
Power steering with a faster ratio.
I have never had any issue with the steering effort (even with 245 front tires), but the steering ratio is a little lazy for the tight 90 degree turns on the street as well as autocrossing.
Good point. It was not so much a problem with resistance/effort required as it was with moving the steering wheel fast and far enough while navigating a series of quick, hard, back and forth turns. On some courses, it was a quite a workout!
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 07-29-2019).]
Originally posted by Patrick: It was not so much a problem with resistance/effort required
quote
Originally posted by Patrick: it was with moving the steering wheel fast and far enough
Those are two sides of the same coin; a driver with insufficient muscular POWER for the maneuvers he wishes to perform.
You could have manual steering with the same ratio as the fast "power steering" setup (such as a de-powered power steering rack), and it would address your reported issue with turning fast and far enough.
However, with that sort of setup, the resistance/effort would rise, above that of the slow manual setup. That's why manufacturers slow down the ratio with manual steering setups.
It boils down to the limitation on driver arm power.
Never felt the need for power steering as I seldom parallel park with mine and like the road hugging feel of manual steering on the highway. Might change one day if I am still driving my Fieros in my 80's! IIRC the Saturn Vue system that darbysan used was a column mounted assembly. No doubt it works well but its an involved modification. My daily driver cars all use a motor assisted rack and this looks like the simplest solution. There is probably one that might be a direct fit but it hasn't been discovered yet. A system using an electric powered hydraulic pump with a PS rack probably makes most sense right now.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Those are two sides of the same coin; a driver with insufficient muscular POWER for the maneuvers he wishes to perform.
It boils down to the limitation on driver arm power.
I'll never be mistaken for Arnie, but I'm not exactly a wimp. lol
Perhaps I should also mention that I have an undersized aftermarket Momo steering wheel installed which adversely affects the available leverage.
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:
It was not so much a problem with resistance/effort required as it was with moving the steering wheel fast and far enough while navigating a series of quick, hard, back and forth turns. On some courses, it was a quite a workout!
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 07-29-2019).]
That's interesting coming from a member since Dec 2010 with 861 posts that's doing a Quad 4 swap... No one near Oologah to let you try one out?
I’ve never asked. I did ride in a Fiero once. My brother owned a couple GTs 15 or 20 years ago. He went through a period in his life when he was trying out a lot of different types of cars. That’s how he became a fan of the Beretta GTZ, especially the Quad powered version, and that’s how I arrived at the decision to swap a Quad into a Fiero. He thought a Quad in a Fiero would be perfect.
The only thing that stood out to me when I rode in his Fiero is that the auto transmission badly needed a fourth gear.
Funny how after you do some google searches, ads similar to what you were looking for pop up on your FB feed. This one popped up today:
I believe it won't work on a Fiero because it moves the wrong way, but it's the first one I've seen that has the motor inline with the tie rod end. If we could find this design that attaches to the vehicle in front of the knuckles, seems like it would be an ideal setup for the Fiero.
For the time being the easiest solution appears to be using a rack that uses an electric pump. WCF makes a conversion kit that allows such a rack to be installed.forum member Spoon has such a rack and electric pump on his Fiero
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
lol
