Pennock's Fiero Forum
  General Fiero Chat
  Well, it begins again today, picked up my '88 GT! "Calizonia" (Page 1)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Email This Page to Someone! | Printable Version

This topic is 5 pages long:  1   2   3   4   5 
Previous Page | Next Page
next newest topic | next oldest topic
Well, it begins again today, picked up my '88 GT! "Calizonia" by railshot
Started on: 05-18-2016 06:44 PM
Replies: 194 (4828 views)
Last post by: railshot on 07-13-2017 09:11 PM
railshot
Member
Posts: 1298
From: Pell Lake, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: Jul 2006


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-18-2016 06:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for railshotClick Here to visit railshot's HomePageClick Here to Email railshotSend a Private Message to railshotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It has been 8 years since I have been in a Fiero, and I must say this.... it feels good!
My last 2 fieros (this is number 9) were both Formula's.
I wish that I had not had to sell them, but the 2008 economy kicked us all around a bit.

She is old, nearing 200,000 miles but the engine was rebuilt around 20k ago, and she is rust free!
Rust free is not a word heard around here much, but Carfax tells me she started out in California, moved to Arizona, and in 2013 came to Wisconsin.
Calizonia is what I will be calling her.

Now the "what to do first and buy" list has started.

Your opinions are greatly appreciated by the way, so feel free in commenting.

She may not be the prettiest, the fastest, or even close to being my dream car, but it is the beginning.



This has always been my favorite view of a GT.



Now yes, it is a T-top, but I cannot find any CJB in the RPO codes.
Very hard to read as it is, but even zooming I cannot find it.



I did find this in the trunk lid though.
Altered by "Quack", that made me chuckle.... maybe that is why it rattles so much?



And this is on the glass.



Looking at the seals, it is definitely not a CJB.



Because of this, it has changed my mind as to what I am going to do to her.
Originally I thought it was a CJB, so of course I wanted to preserve as much as I could and put her back to like new..... now....

It is a factory spoiler delete, so I am going to add one.
wolfwolf was nice enough to include one, so it more than likely will be going on.

As you can see by the pictures, the rims are definitely wrong.



The rears are ok, but those fronts stick out a good inch too far on both sides.
I am making a trip to Appleton Wi on Saturday morning to pick up some 88 rims (thanks automarshal).

Does anyone recognize these headlights?
Man, I hope so.... I have no clue!





The steering is a bit loose, and this GT has the worst ride I have ever had. Stiff as a board. I am thinking maybe the rims might affect that, but more than likely not.
Once I am in there changing the rims, I will check the springs.
Could be aftermarket.... If anyone has any stock '88 springs front and rear, give me a shout!

Exhaust is a little loud, so this weekend will be spent underneath seeing what is up with that.
And, lifting it up to where it should be. Looks a little low to me?



LOL, I just realized I now have three weird / unusual white cars.
Front to back, 88 GT, 2011 HHR, and in the garage (and only for now) 2001 PT Cruiser a.k.a PT Looser.

So, the story has begun, and I am anxious as heck to get going on this.

Needs:
Dew wipes.
Quarter glass
Seat belt and recliner covers.
A/C repaired? The belt is not even on it right now, so who knows. I do remember the last one I put a belt on was a pain.
Front end / steering work. Tie rod ends, ball joints, new rack...... who knows.
Exhaust work.
Tune up. Got the plugs, cap, rotor, wires today, just need to plan a day to do it soon. How are those red Accel wires by the way? Bought them because they were red (roll eyes).
Rims swapped out.
Paint is last on my list.
Paint is going to be factory white!

Sorry to ramble on like this but I am truly excited!

Please, any advice, hints, tricks or comments are more than welcomed!
Dave a.k.a "railshot"
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
notwohorns
Member
Posts: 1173
From: greenville, il. usa
Registered: Jul 2009


Feedback score:    (10)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-18-2016 07:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for notwohornsClick Here to Email notwohornsSend a Private Message to notwohornsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Congrades on getting the car. I like the wingless look
IP: Logged
railshot
Member
Posts: 1298
From: Pell Lake, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: Jul 2006


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-18-2016 09:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for railshotClick Here to visit railshot's HomePageClick Here to Email railshotSend a Private Message to railshotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by notwohorns:

Congrades on getting the car. I like the wingless look


Thanks, I am starting to lean in that direction myself.
Every GT I have had has had a wing, and I never even thought about one without.
Not in a hurry to put one on.
Maybe get another decklid and have one with and one without?
hmmmmm....
IP: Logged
Raydar
Member
Posts: 38596
From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country.
Registered: Oct 1999


Feedback score:    (12)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 452
Rate this member

Report this Post05-18-2016 09:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That's a beautiful car. Kind of the holy grail of Fieros, at least as far as I'm concerned.

I just bought a white 88 coupe (lived in CA and Vegas, all of its life) with the intention of performing a swap at some point. It runs and shifts so nicely that I am not in a hurry, however.
I bought new front ball joints (from Rodney), sensatrac shocks and struts, and poly for all four corners.
Up until tonight when I drove it around the neighborhood, the only place I had driven it was home from the truck. I was able to pay attention to it, a little more, tonight.
It handles like a steam ship. It clunks and rattles from... most everywhere. The rack feels tight, but that's about the only part of the suspension that is.

If your car has that many miles, and the bushings haven't been replaced, it's almost certain to need them. I'm surprised it's as solid as it is. Just a thought.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 05-18-2016).]

IP: Logged
railshot
Member
Posts: 1298
From: Pell Lake, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: Jul 2006


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-19-2016 05:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for railshotClick Here to visit railshot's HomePageClick Here to Email railshotSend a Private Message to railshotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:

That's a beautiful car. Kind of the holy grail of Fieros, at least as far as I'm concerned.

I just bought a white 88 coupe (lived in CA and Vegas, all of its life) with the intention of performing a swap at some point. It runs and shifts so nicely that I am not in a hurry, however.
I bought new front ball joints (from Rodney), sensatrac shocks and struts, and poly for all four corners.
Up until tonight when I drove it around the neighborhood, the only place I had driven it was home from the truck. I was able to pay attention to it, a little more, tonight.
It handles like a steam ship. It clunks and rattles from... most everywhere. The rack feels tight, but that's about the only part of the suspension that is.

If your car has that many miles, and the bushings haven't been replaced, it's almost certain to need them. I'm surprised it's as solid as it is. Just a thought.



Thanks Raydar, It has been my holy grail also.
When I am working on her this weekend putting the right rims on it, I will for sure check the bushings... never crossed my mind.
The previous owner has put new struts, and tires on it because of the ride quality, so you may be on to something.

I have been thinking about an '88 coupe myself, and yours sounds pretty nice. Congratulations on getting one.
I have not seen many coupes for sale anywhere. GT's and Formula's but not coupes.
IP: Logged
olejoedad
Member
Posts: 14221
From: Clarendon Twp., MI
Registered: May 2004


Feedback score: (5)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 190
Rate this member

Report this Post05-19-2016 06:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Good score!

To be clear, the wing was an option on the GT. No wing 'delete', it had to be ordered......
IP: Logged
railshot
Member
Posts: 1298
From: Pell Lake, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: Jul 2006


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-19-2016 11:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for railshotClick Here to visit railshot's HomePageClick Here to Email railshotSend a Private Message to railshotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

Good score!

To be clear, the wing was an option on the GT. No wing 'delete', it had to be ordered......


Thanks olejoedad, I like it.

I guess I used the term "wing delete" improperly there, as in meaning it came from the factory without a wing.

There is no special RPO code for not having a wing, and from what I can find, D80 designates a wing / spoiler?
"D80  Extension, rear end panel (spoiler)".
No D80 on my RPO that I can find.
IP: Logged
trivet
Member
Posts: 757
From: Bay City, MI
Registered: Apr 2012


Feedback score:    (7)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-19-2016 12:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trivetClick Here to Email trivetSend a Private Message to trivetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Nice find - really beautiful car. I always like the white/black contrast.

I found it funny - you are doing the exact opposite of what I've done to my GT. Removed the wing (I like the "clean" look of the car w/o the spoiler) and lowered it because I didn't like the way it sat so high (high being a VERY relative term regarding Fieros)

I was going to say I have an extra GT spoiler for sale, but it looks like you already have one. (and my extra factory springs are for an 87, not 88 so no help there)

Congrats - and enjoy!


------------------
Tim
'87 GT
Med Red Metallic
85K miles
Bay City, MI

[This message has been edited by trivet (edited 05-19-2016).]

IP: Logged
Fiero Thomas
Member
Posts: 4603
From: Round Lake Beach, IL
Registered: Jul 2005


Feedback score:    (170)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 125
Rate this member

Report this Post05-19-2016 01:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero ThomasClick Here to visit Fiero Thomas's HomePageClick Here to Email Fiero ThomasSend a Private Message to Fiero ThomasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Nice ride you have there. I hope to have one soon myself.

------------------
2006 BMW 330I
2009 Dodge Charger

FieroNews
FieroNews Spare Tire Cover
Fieronews Shifter boots

IP: Logged
busa_powered
Member
Posts: 479
From: Dallas Texas
Registered: Oct 2014


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-19-2016 01:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for busa_poweredClick Here to Email busa_poweredSend a Private Message to busa_poweredEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Do you mean PT Loser?

IP: Logged
David Hambleton
Member
Posts: 1444
From: Stoney Creek Ontario Canada
Registered: Nov 2012


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-19-2016 02:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for David HambletonClick Here to Email David HambletonSend a Private Message to David HambletonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by busa_powered:Do you mean PT Loser?


It wasn't a vehicle that I was interested in, but they did make 1,350,000 of 'em...
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
railshot
Member
Posts: 1298
From: Pell Lake, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: Jul 2006


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-19-2016 07:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for railshotClick Here to visit railshot's HomePageClick Here to Email railshotSend a Private Message to railshotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by busa_powered:

Do you mean PT Loser?


Hehehe, well that is what we call it also, so I have 1 of 1,350,000?
Woo hoo! And I have the first year of production to boot...
Now that is special....

Anyone have an idea what headlights those are on my GT?
Sure would help me if I could identify them.
I went to drive it this morning, and they were pointing more towards the moon than the road.
Had to take her back home....
IP: Logged
Gwhite18
Member
Posts: 143
From: Idaho falls, ID
Registered: Dec 2015


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-20-2016 03:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gwhite18Click Here to Email Gwhite18Send a Private Message to Gwhite18Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
They look like chibay Chinese junk housings. I would trash them and either go with stock halogens, or get some good name brand housings.
IP: Logged
railshot
Member
Posts: 1298
From: Pell Lake, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: Jul 2006


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-20-2016 08:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for railshotClick Here to visit railshot's HomePageClick Here to Email railshotSend a Private Message to railshotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Gwhite18:

They look like chibay Chinese junk housings. I would trash them and either go with stock halogens, or get some good name brand housings.


Yup, I agree..... look rather odd.
I am going with stock halogens.

I think I may have figured out the rough (and I do mean rough) ride.
Did a lot of searching here and on the web and have come to the conclusion that my upper and lower control arm bushings are gone.
Having almost 200k miles, somehow this does not surprise me.

Below is a pic of what is on the car now.
Everything looks to be stock and more than likely original.

Upper and lower control arms.
The springs look to be stock also unless I am missing something.



Lower control arms.



Upper control arm.



Looking at this closely, more than likely time for new ball joints, tie rod ends, etc. while I am in there.

There are only a couple of posts on how to replace the bushings, so if anyone has done this before, clue me in.
I am going with stock rubber bushings. Rodney D. has the rear bushings, but right now all I am concentrating on is the front upper and lower.

From what I have read, only the top bushings are a pain?

Never did a control arm before.
I have access to a hydraulic press, but am looking for any tips, tricks, etc...... maybe I should post in the technical section about this?
IP: Logged
railshot
Member
Posts: 1298
From: Pell Lake, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: Jul 2006


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-22-2016 11:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for railshotClick Here to visit railshot's HomePageClick Here to Email railshotSend a Private Message to railshotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well I had some time to play yesterday afternoon when I got back from picking up the correct rims for her.
Put the back end up on ramps to finally see how she looks underneath and check a few things out.
Really looks good!
Only some surface rust in a couple of places, and the exhaust actually looks original?
Not leaking anywhere either, so I guess my memory of the exhaust note is a little off. It sounds good.

Also decided to see what she would look like with the spoiler, so I sat it on the deck for a preview.
I like it much better with the wing to be honest.
You can just barely see the rims I got on the bottom left of the picture.



I will probably upset a few people by installing the wing, but I need some dimensions for the hole locations.
Really want it to be where it should.
Or, if someone has a deck lid close by they would be willing to part with that has the holes, I would consider that and keep the original "original".
I think I will start looking around for one.

Time for a tune-up today. It is beautiful out, so why waste it.
IP: Logged
railshot
Member
Posts: 1298
From: Pell Lake, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: Jul 2006


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-28-2016 08:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for railshotClick Here to visit railshot's HomePageClick Here to Email railshotSend a Private Message to railshotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well, the '88 has been in a shop near me that I trust working on anything I have, for upper and lower control arm bushings.
While they had her, they will be doing a few other things for me.
I had them check out the steering, exhaust, a/c, etc. and sure enough it needs new inner tie rods....

Now this was the fun part.
They said that it would take them until next week Thursday or Friday, to get them, so......
I bet the owner of the shop I could get them much faster.

I quickly emailed Rodney Dickman, who replied extraordinarily fast, and of course he did have them.
The fun part was, he was gracious enough to allow me to come to his home and buy them within 3 hours of me contacting him.

If anyone has the chance to meet and talk with Rodney, do it.
Great guy, great parts, and just an all around decent person.

I am in the plastics business and have been for over 40 years.
Presently I work for a company (Rehrig Pacific, a little plug for a really decent company to work for) that makes most of the garbage and recycling bins for commercial and home use by the big contractors.
The reason I mention this is that I noticed he had one of our 95 gallon bins outside his garage, and he had modified it so he could haul it to the curb with his cart.
LOL, that is just the kind of guy he is..... sees something and improves on it.

We could have talked for hours, but I had to get the tie rod ends to the shop before they closed or I would lose the bet.

This is a big shout out to Rodney really, and another thank you for doing all he has done to keep our cars on the road, and even improve them.
He is definitely passionate about everything he does, and I am honored to have finally met him in person!

Oh yeah, I won the bet
IP: Logged
unboundmo
Member
Posts: 2242
From: California
Registered: Sep 2006


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-29-2016 01:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for unboundmoClick Here to Email unboundmoSend a Private Message to unboundmoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I wanted to let you know that only Cars & Concepts T-Tops were dealer approved out here in Cali.. That I know of; at least in Huntington.. I have the same on my 88. When my Dad ordered the Fiero and requested T-Tops.. The car came over from factory and would then be sent by dealer to the place to get the tops. I believe 88's were the only ones that allowed by factory. But then I think I've seen a couple 87's too. I was only 13 at the time so hard to really remember all the details.

For what I've been reading on your posts and sounds you are bringing "all" back to stock?.. I was going to suggest poly bushings instead of rubber.. Oh.. To get the rubber out, I had to use the torch... the rubber was pretty much suck and I even had to hammer/help out the pin

Anyway... Have fun on your build!

[This message has been edited by unboundmo (edited 05-29-2016).]

IP: Logged
railshot
Member
Posts: 1298
From: Pell Lake, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: Jul 2006


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-29-2016 09:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for railshotClick Here to visit railshot's HomePageClick Here to Email railshotSend a Private Message to railshotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for the information unboundmo.
This car started out in California, so who knows, if your dad's was white, it may be his.
Now that would be a hoot.

The T-tops I have are C&C, and from what I have read, the installer "Quack", who's name is on the tag in my decklid, was supposedly the guy that did almost all the CJB coded T-tops for the factory at Cars and Customs.

FieroMonkey had started a post about cjb vs. non cjb coded t-top cars back in 2003 I found rather interesting where he mentions Quack as being the main installer.
I am not sure where he got the information, but I sure do love the search function here.
Tons of fun, funny, and informative posts by everyone.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...030531-1-026214.html

I am not all that particular about the cjb code to be honest.
This is a very nice car..... well it will be when I am done with it, and I just love GT's!

I bought it to save and enjoy it, so I am on my way.......

IP: Logged
unboundmo
Member
Posts: 2242
From: California
Registered: Sep 2006


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-31-2016 02:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for unboundmoClick Here to Email unboundmoSend a Private Message to unboundmoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Great link.. Thanks.. Info is always cool to learn about the history of our cars... Pennocks plus the people on this site have been nothing but super helpful throughout the years. I so appreciate..

I don't have a cjb code either but it was done by Quack @ C&C... Sticker on the decklid. It's a true T-Top in my book. My 88 is maroon by the way

------------------

IP: Logged
railshot
Member
Posts: 1298
From: Pell Lake, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: Jul 2006


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-02-2016 09:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for railshotClick Here to visit railshot's HomePageClick Here to Email railshotSend a Private Message to railshotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I just picked her up from the local shop that installed new upper and lower control arm bushings and Rodney Dickmans inner tie rod ends.

Man, what a difference in ride quality!

I also had them put the correct rims on, and she looks much better with the smaller front '88 rims.


Previously it rode like a hay wagon..... like it did not have any suspension at all.
Now, it is like the Fiero's I remember.

I just posted a wanted list in the mall that I am going to be updating as I find things I want or need, so check in there often.
My list is going to grow daily now.

Anyone else have this rather odd annoying rattle behind their head when driving?
I took the T-tops out, and it was still there, so not the tops..... hehe, it was rather nice having them out and reminded me of riding in my old TR7 convertible.

Time to do some shopping!
IP: Logged
railshot
Member
Posts: 1298
From: Pell Lake, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: Jul 2006


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-10-2016 10:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for railshotClick Here to visit railshot's HomePageClick Here to Email railshotSend a Private Message to railshotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Update 6/10/2016
3 packages arrived today!

1. Rodney Dickman alternator belt pulley.
Installed tonight, and not that bad to do to be honest, and made all the difference in my chirping (new belt on previously and chirped like crazy when humid out) and my alternator charge rate.
it was running at just a bit above 13v, and now it is holding at 15v to 16v after installing.
Lights are brighter, and the old girl actually seems to run better....
I have not ran it very long since the install, but this is extremely promising.
Go figure.

2. Chris Cook sail / quarter window....
I am almost afraid to open them!
Once they go on, I know a paint job will be in the near future.

3. bonaduces 120 mph cluster purchased from his pick n pull thread.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/074154.html

I was not expecting anything quite this nice!
Not really sure if it will be a plug a play item (86 into an 88) but looking forward to trying tomorrow.
Thanks Dan, you really have decent prices and the parts you are sending out are very high quality!

It takes a lot to impress an old fart like me, but I am impressed.
Even my "old fart" neighbor said it looked danged good, and he has a '56 Pontiac he restored himself.
LOL, old fart meaning anyone older than me (63) lol......
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
railshot
Member
Posts: 1298
From: Pell Lake, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: Jul 2006


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-11-2016 07:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for railshotClick Here to visit railshot's HomePageClick Here to Email railshotSend a Private Message to railshotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Another update.
Installed the "new" speedo / tach unit from bonaduce, and it works great!
When I removed the old one, the ribbon on the back was broken.
Glad I picked this one up, and yes, it was plug and play.

I finally have a service engine light to read codes from, and wouldn't you know it, it read 1-2.
LOL, all that work and "nothing to see here"... at least I know now.

Also picked up two '88 seats from ag9123, very nice seats.
These will be going in to the car so that I can still have fun with her while putting Mr. Mikes on the old ones.
Old ones have a couple of burn holes on the passenger side, and the bottom bolster for the drivers side is almost flat.
Once I have the extra cash, and the GT is running / driving perfect, this will happen before paint.

I have discovered that the sending unit for the over temp light and temperature gauge is bad also, so ordered that today.
I grounded each of the wires and the dash light came on, and the gauge pegged, so at least I know what is wrong there.

If the weather cools a bit (yes, it is 94 degrees out and us Northern folk can't tolerate that) I just may put the new quarter windows in.
I am dying to see what they look like.
IP: Logged
railshot
Member
Posts: 1298
From: Pell Lake, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: Jul 2006


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-12-2016 08:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for railshotClick Here to visit railshot's HomePageClick Here to Email railshotSend a Private Message to railshotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well I'll be danged!!
I have been trying to diagnose why my temperature gauge was not working since I got the car.
2 new senders (yes the correct ones) and I finally decided to look at the plug that connects to the sending unit.
2 green wires?

That is not how it came from the factory, so I decided to dig a bit deeper.
I opened up the heat shielding and removed the black tape from the wires.

What I saw was 2 very nicely soldered and shrink wrapped splices.
It turns out that they had a 50/50 chance of getting it right, but they were wrong.
The wire that turns the idiot light on was on the gauge side and vice versa.

Woo Hoo! I now have a functioning temperature gauge..... now on to why the fan does not run when I turn the a/c on.
IP: Logged
Fiero Thomas
Member
Posts: 4603
From: Round Lake Beach, IL
Registered: Jul 2005


Feedback score:    (170)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 125
Rate this member

Report this Post06-12-2016 08:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero ThomasClick Here to visit Fiero Thomas's HomePageClick Here to Email Fiero ThomasSend a Private Message to Fiero ThomasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Keep up the good work. Glad you fixed your gauge. Very satisfying when you figure something out

Tom

------------------
1987 Fiero GT T-Top
2003 BMW 330I
2009 Dodge Charger

FieroNews
FieroNews Spare Tire Cover

IP: Logged
railshot
Member
Posts: 1298
From: Pell Lake, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: Jul 2006


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-22-2016 06:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for railshotClick Here to visit railshot's HomePageClick Here to Email railshotSend a Private Message to railshotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I finally figured out the fan not running.
I needed a new relay and fan motor to boot.

Once that was installed, the fan ran all the time???

Last weekend I removed all the bs wiring under the dash for what must have been an alarm and remote start.
Fan still ran all the time.
I have been chasing this now for over a week and finally figured it out last night.

When I had her in the shop and the guys checked out my a/c, which still does not work, they replaced one of the switches on the a/c compressor.
Go figure.... they had the green and white wire connected to the normally closed low pressure switch, which in turn makes the fan run all the time.
Swapped them out and no more fan on all the time, and when I push the a/c button on the dash, the fan comes on.

I would be willing to bet that when they changed the switch, they never charged the system and that is why the a/c does not work.
So much for trusting them anymore.
I am going to have a little chat today with the owner, he was on vacation when they finished the work on her.

I have also installed the new quarter glass, removed the overly tinted window tint (a small steamer works wonders to do this with, had the tint off in less than 30 minutes), and am almost ready to put the seats in.
No new seats until I am done mechanically with it, witch will include the new reproduction dew wipes I was luck enough to get from seajai.
A very nice product that I do hope someone else picks up on making again.
It is really needed.
IP: Logged
hyperv6
Member
Posts: 5482
From: Clinton, OH, USA
Registered: Mar 2003


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 90
Rate this member

Report this Post06-22-2016 07:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by unboundmo:

I wanted to let you know that only Cars & Concepts T-Tops were dealer approved out here in Cali.. That I know of; at least in Huntington.. I have the same on my 88. When my Dad ordered the Fiero and requested T-Tops.. The car came over from factory and would then be sent by dealer to the place to get the tops. I believe 88's were the only ones that allowed by factory. But then I think I've seen a couple 87's too. I was only 13 at the time so hard to really remember all the details.

For what I've been reading on your posts and sounds you are bringing "all" back to stock?.. I was going to suggest poly bushings instead of rubber.. Oh.. To get the rubber out, I had to use the torch... the rubber was pretty much suck and I even had to hammer/help out the pin

Anyway... Have fun on your build!



Here is the deal on the tops. The Cars and Concepts T tops were done originally back in late 83 on a pilot car offered to GM. It was an attempt to make it a factory option. GM said it could not be done but they proved it could.

This lead GM to accepting the tops as an official dealer installed option. That means if they were installed by Cars and Concepts at their plant or one of their regional installers that GM and Pontiac would fully cover the car under the factory warranty and dealers could sell them with full GM coverage.

Many tops were installed on all years and were done in the Michigan plant where the CJB cars were done and by the same folks who did the CJB cars. The installed tops in the approved Cars and Concepts installers were considered just the same and in many cases they were an install done to a higher degree as they were only taking on one job at a time.

We had an installer here in town and he did them for many dealers here. They would just add an addition to the window sticker and add to the price. You could also take your car to C&C or their installer hand have it done yourself.

The only thing the CJB adds is that it was called a factory option even though the tops were installed where most of the dealer installs were done by the same people. They also received the new updated gasket and trim around the top.

The truth is the CJB RPO code on the sticker is more the difference than anything else. To some of those who own one they want to be more different so it is important to them but the reality is this was more a clerical deal than a pure physical one.

The truth is that Cars And Concepts installed Fiero T tops at the plant right up to the early 90's as I saw the last install they did at a Fiero gathering in Pontiac right when they got done with the car.

That weekend I spent a lot of time with Philip Edwards as he was the one at C&C that was with the Fiero T top program the entire time and ended up buying the Top business from C&C. He gave me the whole history of the tops and how the dealer program worked as well as the GM. He told me how much they are all alike and how many of the non CJB cars are no different than the dealer installed cars less the gasket seal and the lack of the code on the fender. Having gone though the same install at the same place by the same people in many cases they are similar.

I think you will find that being original or being a CJB may make a difference to some but most people will not care as they are getting the same tops and the open air feel is just the same. The key is to have one that is complete and in good condition. The parts are getting harder to find and it will be key. The real difference will be condition, condition and condition for value.

Some may not like hearing they were all similar but it is the way it is. If the code is important to them then that is fine but the truth is they are all sisters from the same big happy family.

In the world of collector cars codes and where it was built are only really important when you get to things like COPO cars with major engine match ups etc. The Fiero world lacks much of this old option rarity codes that collectors hunt. The only real rarer Fiero models of any note is the pace car and then just having an 88 for the better suspension. after that they are all pretty much alike to the point the outside collector has little interest in small options codes.

Not looking for an argument but just the way I see it and learned about it. Even the man who was behind the program and own one of the first CJB owners said it was not that big of a deal. I think his was #3 done in 88 and it was like new at the time.

IP: Logged
railshot
Member
Posts: 1298
From: Pell Lake, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: Jul 2006


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-22-2016 06:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for railshotClick Here to visit railshot's HomePageClick Here to Email railshotSend a Private Message to railshotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:


Here is the deal on the tops. The Cars and Concepts T tops were done originally back in late 83 on a pilot car offered to GM. It was an attempt to make it a factory option. GM said it could not be done but they proved it could.

This lead GM to accepting the tops as an official dealer installed option. That means if they were installed by Cars and Concepts at their plant or one of their regional installers that GM and Pontiac would fully cover the car under the factory warranty and dealers could sell them with full GM coverage.

Many tops were installed on all years and were done in the Michigan plant where the CJB cars were done and by the same folks who did the CJB cars. The installed tops in the approved Cars and Concepts installers were considered just the same and in many cases they were an install done to a higher degree as they were only taking on one job at a time.

We had an installer here in town and he did them for many dealers here. They would just add an addition to the window sticker and add to the price. You could also take your car to C&C or their installer hand have it done yourself.

The only thing the CJB adds is that it was called a factory option even though the tops were installed where most of the dealer installs were done by the same people. They also received the new updated gasket and trim around the top.

The truth is the CJB RPO code on the sticker is more the difference than anything else. To some of those who own one they want to be more different so it is important to them but the reality is this was more a clerical deal than a pure physical one.

The truth is that Cars And Concepts installed Fiero T tops at the plant right up to the early 90's as I saw the last install they did at a Fiero gathering in Pontiac right when they got done with the car.

That weekend I spent a lot of time with Philip Edwards as he was the one at C&C that was with the Fiero T top program the entire time and ended up buying the Top business from C&C. He gave me the whole history of the tops and how the dealer program worked as well as the GM. He told me how much they are all alike and how many of the non CJB cars are no different than the dealer installed cars less the gasket seal and the lack of the code on the fender. Having gone though the same install at the same place by the same people in many cases they are similar.

I think you will find that being original or being a CJB may make a difference to some but most people will not care as they are getting the same tops and the open air feel is just the same. The key is to have one that is complete and in good condition. The parts are getting harder to find and it will be key. The real difference will be condition, condition and condition for value.

Some may not like hearing they were all similar but it is the way it is. If the code is important to them then that is fine but the truth is they are all sisters from the same big happy family.

In the world of collector cars codes and where it was built are only really important when you get to things like COPO cars with major engine match ups etc. The Fiero world lacks much of this old option rarity codes that collectors hunt. The only real rarer Fiero models of any note is the pace car and then just having an 88 for the better suspension. after that they are all pretty much alike to the point the outside collector has little interest in small options codes.

Not looking for an argument but just the way I see it and learned about it. Even the man who was behind the program and own one of the first CJB owners said it was not that big of a deal. I think his was #3 done in 88 and it was like new at the time.


That is excellent historical data to add to the forum hyperv6!
Thank you so much for the input.
I myself have no preference either way, and just enjoy the tops out, CJB or no CJB, it is fun!

I would still love to find out who "Quack" was.
Ah, the 80's....
IP: Logged
2.5
Member
Posts: 41185
From: Southern MN
Registered: May 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 178
Rate this member

Report this Post06-23-2016 01:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Rough ride, possibly over inflated tires?
IP: Logged
railshot
Member
Posts: 1298
From: Pell Lake, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: Jul 2006


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-23-2016 06:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for railshotClick Here to visit railshot's HomePageClick Here to Email railshotSend a Private Message to railshotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

Rough ride, possibly over inflated tires?


That was part of it, but it needed new upper and lower control arm bushings.
All taken care of now, and 100% better.

Tomorrow will be the a/c check.
Taking it in around noon.
I have to see if it holds a vacuum, then oiler her up and get some R134 in it if all checks out.
The fitting tells me it has been converted already, so fingers crossed.....
One of the reasons I have not driven it much to be honest. Just too hot out the past couple of weeks.
Even with the T-tops out, she cooks when it is 95 degrees out.
IP: Logged
railshot
Member
Posts: 1298
From: Pell Lake, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: Jul 2006


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-25-2016 08:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for railshotClick Here to visit railshot's HomePageClick Here to Email railshotSend a Private Message to railshotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well, the ac is still not working.
When we pulled a vacuum it held very well, so we filled it up with R134 and....
It sounded like some prehistoric monster was let loose in the engine compartment.
On closer examination, the clutch was working, but the compressor was frozen solid.

We removed all the refrigerant when we were done so I could replace the compressor.

So, now to decide whom to buy the ac compressor from, and when to spend the time to install it.
The shop wants $600 to do the whole thing, and I just may take them up on that.
With needing to replace the dryer, the compressor, orifice tube, etc. it may be worth it.

I have been searching the forum, and it seems that I have a choice between rebuilt ($188) and new ($264).
It looks like new is the better choice.

Anyone have input or opinions on 4 seasons ac compressors?
From what I have been reading, they are the go to guys.

Also I decided to install the new inner and outer dew wipes I got, and I must say it was a pain.
I had Rodneys special tool and I could not get it to catch enough to bite properly.
I then recalled reading here somewhere that someone had removed the window closed stops and was able to get at the two middle screws.
I did this, but was still unable to get to one of the screws.
Eventually I just ripped the old wipe out, removed the screw with a pliers, and ....... dropped that one in the door.
LOL, it will live there for a while.
This was just the really bad passenger side and it took me 4 hours in the heat yesterday.
Next "cool" day, I will be doing the drivers side.

After removing the inner dew wipe, I realized mine were actually in very good shape, so I am saving them for now.
Maybe someone will need them down the road as no body will be making these anymore?
IP: Logged
railshot
Member
Posts: 1298
From: Pell Lake, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: Jul 2006


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-26-2016 08:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for railshotClick Here to visit railshot's HomePageClick Here to Email railshotSend a Private Message to railshotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sadly, I might be moving on from my 88GT project.

I have posted this in Other Cars, but thought I would copy it here also...
Copied from my other post today......

"I have had my 88GT now for about 6 weeks after an 8 year absence, and may be coming to the reality that my wifes and my old bodies just cannot handle a Fiero anymore.
I do know for sure, what used to take me 1 hour to do on the GT, now takes 3, and the extra 2 hours is just getting up and down.

Getting in and out is taking a lot of effort, and my wife (who used to love our Fiero's) does not have the strength she had back then, is almost refusing to ride in it.
Last year she was diagnosed with breast cancer and went through some very nasty surgery and chemo treatments that have left her with neuropathy in her hands and feet.
Thankfully she is testing negative for cancer every time, but her strength and the feeling in her hands and feet may never return.

Yes, I am contemplating selling my 88 GT, and getting a Solstice or Sky.

Having never been in one, or driven one, I was wondering how they compare to a Fiero for getting in and out of, and ride quality etc.
I have always liked the looks of the Solstice, and the interiors look fairly comfortable.

Before I even go to look at one, I would love some real world feedback.

Anyone own one and drive one?"



IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
Australian
Member
Posts: 4331
From: Sydney Australia
Registered: Sep 2004


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-29-2016 04:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AustralianClick Here to visit Australian's HomePageClick Here to Email AustralianSend a Private Message to AustralianEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Car looks great was the 2 tone painted over? Nice solid car and those problems are so standard did everything same when got my car.

[This message has been edited by Australian (edited 06-29-2016).]

IP: Logged
railshot
Member
Posts: 1298
From: Pell Lake, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: Jul 2006


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-29-2016 07:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for railshotClick Here to visit railshot's HomePageClick Here to Email railshotSend a Private Message to railshotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Australian:

Car looks great was the 2 tone painted over? Nice solid car and those problems are so standard did everything same when got my car.



If you are talking about the bottom of the doors etc. being the same color as the top, that was an '88 only thing with the whole car painted the same color.
The bottoms of the other years are usually silver.

She is all original paint, and it sure is dull with even some of the primer showing through in spots.
Having lived most of it's life in California, and then Arizona, the sun really took it's toll on the clear coat.

IP: Logged
theogre
Member
Posts: 29475
From: USA
Registered: Mar 99


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 551
Rate this member

Report this Post06-30-2016 02:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
HL picture above are likely an illegal H4 shell and bulb.
Can't see any DOT marking on the front "glass" and hole in the reflector was design to have a small bulb and socket.
bulb markings doesn't show.

Shell had water and dirt inside won't help. The crap likely got in thru the small hole and/or maybe main bulb hole.

See my Cave, Headlights

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)


The Ogre's Fiero Cave

IP: Logged
railshot
Member
Posts: 1298
From: Pell Lake, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: Jul 2006


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-30-2016 07:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for railshotClick Here to visit railshot's HomePageClick Here to Email railshotSend a Private Message to railshotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:

HL picture above are likely an illegal H4 shell and bulb.
Can't see any DOT marking on the front "glass" and hole in the reflector was design to have a small bulb and socket.
bulb markings doesn't show.

Shell had water and dirt inside won't help. The crap likely got in thru the small hole and/or maybe main bulb hole.

See my Cave, Headlights



Thanks theogre for the link.
I have already replaced them with stock halogens, and they work so much better than those nasty things.

I have finally been confident to drive the GT to work and back for the past week.
30 miles there, 30 miles back, smiling all the way!

The only bad thing is yesterday someone pulled out right in front of me and I had to nail the brakes pretty good.
Good thing is, the brakes worked outstanding, the bad is it reminded me of when I use to ride my Harley.
This was in broad daylight!
Nobody sees you unless you have a huge SUV, or lights on all the time, and mine were on.
That is why I hung my helmet up over 20 years ago.

At least I feel pretty safe in a Fiero.
I was broadsided in my '85 4 banger back in 1991, and it absorbed all the impact.
I walked away totally unhurt, but the poor little Fiero was a goner...... miss that one also.

Also, I guess I will have to get used to people climbing up my backside trying to figure out what the heck I am driving.
LOL, I have not seen another Fiero on the road in the past 8 or 9 years around here, so they are becoming a rare novelty.
IP: Logged
railshot
Member
Posts: 1298
From: Pell Lake, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: Jul 2006


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post07-02-2016 01:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for railshotClick Here to visit railshot's HomePageClick Here to Email railshotSend a Private Message to railshotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
What have I done....?
I am so ashamed of myself it is not funny........

I may have a black '86 GT showing up on my drive soon.
What is it with these things?
One is never enough?
!
LOL, stay tuned for the "Goat Kart".
Back when I was active on the other Fiero site, (fierodotcom.com) I had been longing for this one about 10 or so years ago.
It has lived in the weeds on a farm near me all this time.

Rusted out trunk, I am sure rusted out cradle (to be determined yet), and the first time I saw it there was a nanny goat on top of it.
Thus the name "Goat Kart".....

wife is really going to kill me, and to think I was even thinking of selling the '88.
NO WAY!

Today I finally got the courage / enerby to replace all the spark plugs, took about 1/2 hour thankfully, and nothing was rusted in place like most cars around here.

Took it for a test drive and the guy with the '86 GT was outside, so of course I had to stop by...... what was I thinking?

[This message has been edited by railshot (edited 07-07-2016).]

IP: Logged
railshot
Member
Posts: 1298
From: Pell Lake, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: Jul 2006


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post07-07-2016 07:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for railshotClick Here to visit railshot's HomePageClick Here to Email railshotSend a Private Message to railshotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well, no word on the '86 GT yet, but I did do something today...

I spent around 1/2 hour just flat on my back looking up at the a/c compressor and thinking how the heck am I going to get that bugger out?
10 years ago I probably would have had it out and back in during that 1/2 hour, but now....

I see very few, if any, "easy" ways to remove it without dropping the exhaust, moving this that and the other thing out of the way and, on and on.

Now I am not afraid to tackle it, but I just may be smart enough not to.
If I only had a lift!
Heheh....

I have read all the posts here in the forum about this, and you know what.... I think it is going to be worth the $$ to have someone else put it in and at the same time charge it.
Sheesh, I have never seen anything with that may obstructions, hidden mounting bolts, etc.
IP: Logged
railshot
Member
Posts: 1298
From: Pell Lake, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: Jul 2006


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post07-12-2016 06:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for railshotClick Here to visit railshot's HomePageClick Here to Email railshotSend a Private Message to railshotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
AC works!
AC works!
AC works!

Couldn't resit.
90 degrees out with humidity, and I was quite comfortable on my way home tonight.
This was the last major mechanical item to do, now on to the smaller things.

Exhaust, not shot but still not what I like to hear, all 4 speakers, need a B pillar with a speaker grill for the passenger side, fix the center console and gauge pad, vinyl covers are not fit properly, replace the PRNDL light, tighten up the rear window, it "creaks" and rattles a lot, T-tops could use some tightening also, install the other seats, recover the originals with something... maybe Mr. Mike's, but I do like the originals, etc.....

It is a good feeling being at this point in the resurrection this quickly.
By next spring I hope to only have paint waiting.
Factory white is what I want, so that should not be that bad.

Don't mind me, I am just using this as a log of sorts to keep track of the time and dates of certain accomplishments.
IP: Logged
notwohorns
Member
Posts: 1173
From: greenville, il. usa
Registered: Jul 2009


Feedback score:    (10)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post07-12-2016 08:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for notwohornsClick Here to Email notwohornsSend a Private Message to notwohornsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Good to hear you're going to keep it. I'm 67 years old and still love to drive mine. I still do all my own work, including the A/C compressor. It use to be bad trying to get up from the floor when working on it, but now t's even harder to get down. lol.
IP: Logged
railshot
Member
Posts: 1298
From: Pell Lake, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: Jul 2006


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post07-12-2016 09:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for railshotClick Here to visit railshot's HomePageClick Here to Email railshotSend a Private Message to railshotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by notwohorns:

Good to hear you're going to keep it. I'm 67 years old and still love to drive mine. I still do all my own work, including the A/C compressor. It use to be bad trying to get up from the floor when working on it, but now t's even harder to get down. lol.


Oh brother I hear you!
The main reason I had someone else do the work is that last Tuesday while I was on vacation my wife wanted the hedges trimmed.
Well, I was standing on a foldable platform, actually a very sturdy one, and when I moved it to do the next section I did not notice that one of the folding legs was folded just enough to hold me until I stepped beyond it.
To say the least, it collapsed and my wife saw the whole thing.
I went down rather slowly, but had the electric trimmer in my hands and could not brace myself enough and landed flat on my back and literally slid down the now collapsed platform turned into a new amusement park ride.

Now that time has passed, and the back is actually feeling a bit better, my wife admits she had a very hard time not cracking up at my misfortune.... yup, she still loves me.

Heheh, and that is why I get to keep the GT also!

You would think that by the time you reach my age (63) you would be a little more careful, but alas, that is still not in the cards.

It only cost $200 to have them install it, plus the charging and flushing (this thing was full of soot and took 3 hours to clean out!), I do figure I got off pretty cheap for a total of $428 smackers to have them do everything.!
I bought all the parts, compressor, dryer, and orifice tube and would not have been able to do what they had to do at home, so for a total of $680 bucks, I now have AC!
IP: Logged
Previous Page | Next Page

This topic is 5 pages long:  1   2   3   4   5 
next newest topic | next oldest topic

All times are ET (US)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Back To Main Page

Advertizing on PFF | Fiero Parts Vendors
PFF Merchandise | Fiero Gallery | Ogre's Cave
Real-Time Chat | Fiero Related Auctions on eBay



Copyright (c) 1999, C. Pennock