i just learned that, contrary to the popular belief that C&C shipped T-Top kits to Pontiac, where pontiac fiero builders installed the T-Top kits is a complete wives tale.

It appears that Pontiac shipped ALL 88 Fieros to C&C for "EVERY" CJB 88 Fiero.

Also, more than 80% of all T-Top Fieros done at C&C, CJB or not, were T-Top'ed by a C&C employee nicknamed "Quack" who usually placed a sticker, i have learned, under the rear decklid with his signature. I have seen these C&C stickers on CJB and non-CJB cars.

My point is, why is everyone so fluff'in hot-n-botherd that their 88 have the option code "CJB" to be considered a "Real" 88 T-Top?

Because the fact is, wether it is on the option code sticker or not, all 88 Fieros with T-Tops (with the acception of a few recent garage jobs in the past few years) had their roofs hacked off, T-Tops built, and T-Tops installed, by C&C, AT C&C.

if you have the chance, take a look under the headliner of a CJB and non CJB T-Top car, they rivets and rivet patterns are identicle. not to mention the few T-Top cars i have seen with the T-Top setup removed have virtually identicle sylicone swirl patterns in the gluing.

besides, lets just consider for one moment that pontiac DID actually Install all of the CJB cars tops. who do you think would do a better job installing them? i personally would put my money on the designers/builders of the T-Tops, since both partys had the same parts to work with.

Maybe i am not as in tune with Fiero majesty as everyone else, but given the facts, im not quite sure why 3 little letters make a CJB car done by Quack at C&C different or more valuable than a non CJB car done by quack at C&C /shrug

...just something i had to ask/get off my chest

***positions himself securely in his chair, suited up in his flame retardent suit. and quickly fastens his 5-point harness***

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Monkey
"No matter where I go...There's my car"

88 T-Top Formula ***NEW ARRIVAL, FIRST 88 FOR ME**
84 Indy 4-spd (work in progress)
87 T-Top GT 2.8/5-spd (Down but not out)
87 Hardtop GT 2.8/5-spd
97 Trans-AM WS6 6-spd
91 V8 Monster Miata 5spd
69 Mustang Coupe 302 4spd

http://members.cox.net/lothe/monstermovies.html

I am not going to flame you. I like the idea that there is nothing different between my 87 with T-Tops and an 88 with the 'factory' option.

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Thanks hallsman!

Personally I don't care if my t-top formula was done at pontiac or at C&C. However, when searching for mine I wanted one that already had t-tops because I don't have the place or time to do it myself. But it is nice to have that CJB code, just in case someday Fieros become collectible. Anyone that is familiar with old camaros knows about the Yenko Camaros, which is the same deal and they are the most highly collectible camaros out there, the same should apply to the CJB cars. perhaps this will help explain.

I always thought it was pretty common knowledge that the cars were shipped to C&C to have their tops chopped. I am not up on all the T-Top knowledge, but I believe what makes the CJB coded cars special is that they were a factory option that was checked off on the options (goodies) list. In other words it matters alot if you are talking an excellent condition, low mileage, "all original" car.

quote Originally posted by FieroMonkey: i just learned that, contrary to the popular belief that C&C shipped T-Top kits to Pontiac, where pontiac fiero builders installed the T-Top kits is a complete wives tale. It appears that Pontiac shipped ALL 88 Fieros to C&C for "EVERY" CJB 88 Fiero. Also, more than 80% of all T-Top Fieros done at C&C, CJB or not, were T-Top'ed by a C&C employee nicknamed "Quack" who usually placed a sticker, i have learned, under the rear decklid with his signature.

You are correct. C&C installed all of the CJB T-tops.
I've *never* heard that Pontiac did any installations "in house".

I do believe that some of the non-CJB cars may have been installed at "authorized" C&C outlets. I believe there was one in the Northeast Atlanta 'burbs, back in the mid 80s. I do remember seeing an aero notchback (85 GT?) with T-tops pulling out of the establishment, one day.

There's a guy in our club who has a non-coded T-top car. I'll ask him about the "quack" sticker. Sounds familiar.

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Raydar

88 3.4 coupe. In progress.

Out of my mind. Back in 30 minutes.

From T-Top registry - My 88 CJB was delivered to C&C 3-3-88 and delivered to a dealer (Larry Hopkins Pontiac) 3-14-88.

I forgot to remove the sticker from the front windshield when it was replaced... doh!

kv

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88 GT T-Top 5-spd #338 of 1252
87 SE 4-cyl 5-spd has performance sound

Maybe i just know to much about Fieros, but i always knew that Pontiac shipped them off to C&C and that C&C did the work. Not sure who misled you into thinking that it was the other way around. As a matter of fact, after C&C did the work, they shipped it off to the dealer in MD (Admiral Pontiac) where it was purchased by the original owner. And, come on, the only thing i have is the fact that it is an original CJB car, it has no other options. I just think its envy, some are real and some are not. Its like a fake GTO Judge or putting FORMULA stickers on the side of a 88 coupe. No flame intended but come on what is the issue, T-Tops are cool, some were done after the fact and some were ordered that way. The other day i helped a friend put a factory sunroof in his 88 coupe. it didn't come that way, and it didn't have the sunroof code on the fender, but he likes it, and its his car.

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88 TTop coupe, soon to be fitted with a DOHC 3.4/5spd

I care that both of the T-tops I have had have both been CJB coded cars for one reason -- because it is just flippin cool! And for another reason - it makes the car worth more in the long run...

True, the non-CJB cars are just as much fun to pop the tops and all. But the fact is that those RPO stickers are there for a reason. Does anyone care that the 427 big block Corvette they are looking at started out as a 350 car? Your damn right they do! That's what it's all about...

And just for further info, C&C was not some little hatchet job place. They customized lots of cars for GM and other marques. Counting my 2 CJB T-tops and my 87 Aerocoupe Monte Carlo, I have had 3 cars built by C&C.

I have heard that there is a kit out there to convert a regular Monte Carlo SS into an Aerocoupe. Do I care that my car is an original Aerocoupe and has all the numbers to prove it? You're damn right I do!

Have you ever put a lot of aftermarket accessories on a car and then when you tried to go trade it in they didn't want to add any money for the accessories? Same thing with non-CJB T-tops. They are an aftermarket accessory.

I'm not putting anyone's car down because everyone knows I love any T-top Fiero. That is just the reasoning behind the desirability of true CJB cars. You asked so I answered...

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[This message has been edited by Songman (edited 02-11-2003).]

quote Originally posted by Songman: I care that both of the T-tops I have had have both been CJB coded cars for one reason -- because it is just flippin cool! And for another reason - it makes the car worth more in the long run... True, the non-CJB cars are just as much fun to pop the tops and all. But the fact is that those RPO stickers are there for a reason. Does anyone care that the 427 big block Corvette they are looking at started out as a 350 car? Your damn right they do! That's what it's all about... And just for further info, C&C was not some little hatchet job place. They customized lots of cars for GM and other marques. Counting my 2 CJB T-tops and my 87 Aerocoupe Monte Carlo, I have had 3 cars built by C&C. I have heard that there is a kit out there to convert a regular Monte Carlo SS into an Aerocoupe. Do I care that my car is an original Aerocoupe and has all the numbers to prove it? You're damn right I do! Have you ever put a lot of aftermarket accessories on a car and then when you tried to go trade it in they didn't want to add any money for the accessories? Same thing with non-CJB T-tops. They are an aftermarket accessory. I'm not putting anyone's car down because everyone knows I love any T-top Fiero. That is just the reasoning behind the desirability of true CJB cars. You asked so I answered...

Actually C&C work sucks. Just check out their hack jobs on the mustangs, T's and convertibles. The Chrysler Laser and Dodge Daytona T-top hack jobs. The seals are second rate, the fit is under par and they DEFINITLY are NOT factory. GM just decided to get in on the market and offered the T-top option in 88 like they did with the Trans Am back in 77 with Hurst Hatch. Now even though the Hurst was ordered through the dealer, it was still a cut. Not until 1978 when FISHER did the t's was it even remotely a decent job.

I agree the T-tops are cool, the fact still remains it is just a STICKER on a wheel well that makes an 88 T worth more? What a joke. ALL T's were cut jobs, cut and dry (no pun intended). UNLIKE a factory 427 vette engine installed at the FACTORY.

I think T's on a Fiero look great, and want one someday too. But T's regardless of year or DECAL appeal to me since they are all identical.

No offense meant to all you purists!

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Tony
-------------
84 Indy Fiero 72K orig paint
83 Lotus Esprit 19K orig paint
80 Turbo Trans Am 64K orig paint
92 GP/GTP 165K! orig paint
71 Mach1 ?K orig paint!!

[This message has been edited by indypbody (edited 02-12-2003).]

I'm with the above people......I never knew there was an issue with who installed the T-Tops. I too thought it was common knowledge that GM sent cars to C&C for fitment of T-Tops.......afterall, the '88s ARE called "ship-thru". Meaning that the complete car (all built plainroof, BTW) was "shipped through" from the assembly line in Pontiac to C&C in Brighton, MI for the conversion.

However......not all T-Tops were installed by C&C at their plant in Brighton. ANY authorized C&C dealership in the country could do that. The place to go in Denver was Rocky Mountain Sunroof (which is now defunct). A friend of mine bought several T-Top kits and had RMS install them in a number of Fieros he had. I bought 3 new kits from him 5 years ago (original cost, BTW, was ~$500)......these were the left overs he had that never made it into one of his Fieros (probably because RMS went belly up).

As for why is a CJB car worth more than a non coded car.......it's all in the RPOs! Anyone can build a fully loaded T-Top '88 GT from an '88 coupe, but it is still just an '88 coupe and will not sell for as much as a real '88 GT T-Top. Think about the '85 Ferrari 250 GTO........you could build one from a 308, but it is nowhere near the same car nor would it carry the same price tag (a 308 can be had for as little as $20,000 whereas a real 250 GTO is 10 to 20 times that amount.

Bottom line is originality......years from now if there is a demand for Fieros as true collectibles (like the old 60's muscle cars) people will want the ones with the RPO codes to back up the options it has. This is why an original car will always have more intrinsic value than one that was built to suit the owner (by adding non original stuff to it).

Nothing purist about it on my end... I'm talking about 'bottom line'... and money talks. And that little sticker means a lot of difference in money.

Is a Hurst Olds still just an Oldsmobile even though it has a Hurst shifter in it? Nah... Someone already mentioned Yenko Camaro... Greenwood Corvette? Saleen Mustang? They all started as just a regular car from their maker.

Whether it is all GM stuff or not, it is still sanctioned as factory.. and that means a higher bottom line at sale time.

I already said I like ANY T-top Fiero... and ANY Fiero in general...

BTW, I have no complaints about any of my C&C work... none of my T-tops leak, even in high pressure washes. Maybe I'm just lucky.

quote Originally posted by indypbody: No offense meant to all you purists! 84 Indy Fiero 72K orig paint 83 Lotus Esprit 19K orig paint 80 Turbo Trans Am 64K orig paint 92 GP/GTP 165K! orig paint 71 Mach1 ?K orig paint!!

If you're not a "purist" then why do you include "original paint" on all of your cars' descriptions????

If originality means nothing to you then whether or not your '71 Mustang has it's original hue or not should be irrelevant.

Right?

Just an observation.

T-Tops that dont leak under a preasure wash? Is your car in a plastic bubble? ide like to see this

I'll take you for a ride through a pressure wash anytime. I did mine before I left Bakersfield headed to the beach this weekend, and again when I got there to knock the bugs off... no leaks!

My old T-top, that MinnGreenGT has, would leak in a pressure wash but never leaked on me in any of the strong Nashville rain storms when I was living there.

quote Originally posted by Songman: Nothing purist about it on my end... I'm talking about 'bottom line'... and money talks. And that little sticker means a lot of difference in money.

I guess your right, a Fiero with the decal is worth lets say.....3500$ and without,oh....3400$

This scenario is of course a Fiero thats driven with normal miles in average condition. Not some garage queen no mile beauty thats only shown at the local show or to a few select friends LUCKY enough to gaze on the beauty in its protective CARCOON in the garage.

The rare and elusive T-top fiero is just that, a Fiero with T-tops to MOST people. Not an ultra-rare and valuable Yenko ZL1 427 aluminum blocked one of 10 1969 Camaros built by a DEALER. Nope a T-top Fiero is the same, code or not. Just a chisel job from C&C.

Just my .02$ worth

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Tony
-------------
84 Indy Fiero 72K orig paint
83 Lotus Esprit 19K orig paint
80 Turbo Trans Am 64K orig paint
92 GP/GTP 165K! orig paint
71 Mach1 ?K orig paint!!

[This message has been edited by indypbody (edited 02-12-2003).]

haha.. when we all keep putting in our 2 cents here, we'll be able to buy one of those $3500 T-top Fieros... I wish I had gotten mine for that. Of course mine is fairly low miles although I am changing that since I got it...

We can go back and forth about this from now one.. BUT... there was a time when that high performance Yenko was nothing more than a Camaro (or Nova) with a big motor. It was just an option that really didn't cost that much to get when the car was new. Now 30+ years later is when the value is up. That's what mrfiero was talking about.

Like you, I had an Indy. In reality there is nothing special about it... Some stripes, some letters, some different colors inside... but it is still just an 84 SE. But damn! Ain't it a rush to have an Indy Pace Car. Same thing with T-tops. It's all about the RPO code. A Trans Am is just a Firebird and a Mach 1 is just a Mustang. Thank goodness for RPO codes!

I had a PHS-documented 1969 Ram Air IV Judge that I sold a couple of years back... You know what it was? It was a GTO with some cool options and an RPO code that cost just a few hundred dollars when it was new. How much difference does it make now? You can buy a nice 69 GTO for around $10,000... a nice Ram Air IV Judge will run you mid-30s... for just an RPO code! Imagine!

Maybe 20 or 30 years from now, the difference in a CJB T-top and a non-CJB T-top will be that much too... There is already a price difference. We are talking about long term here. We all say that ANY T-top is cool to have to drive around in...

There's 2 more of my shiny pennies. Do we have enough for a T-top yet? Good night all. I'm off to bed...

btw- I was never impressed by Yenko's, no matter if they were Camaros or Novas. I also wasn't impressed with Royal Bobcat Pontiacs, Greenwood Vettes, certainly not Saleen Mustangs... Those were just examples of cars that were built by other companies and how their value increased.

[This message has been edited by Songman (edited 02-12-2003).]

quote Originally posted by mrfiero: If you're not a "purist" then why do you include "original paint" on all of your cars' descriptions???? If originality means nothing to you then whether or not your '71 Mustang has it's original hue or not should be irrelevant. Right? Just an observation.

mrfiero, I attempt to only get cars with the first original factory coat because there is not ANY repaint, shy of a 10,000 dollar job that can come close to original. No tape lines, overspray, feathering, or blending. To replicate a factoid paintjob, you must literally remove glass, panels etc. Thus my obsession with original paint.

However....my Mach1 for instance, now has rear glass defog and Ram-air which it did NOT have when ordered from Ford. The car is still worth money, has even more value with the added rare options. Only fanatical numbers matching car buffs even care. So, I am by no means a purist. I own and drive and personalize my cars to my taste. I enjoy the admireing looks and comments my cars get. It's usually only at car shows where you get the occasional know it all that must find fault with all items on the vehicle that it didn't come with from the factory. Duh, what about the tires, battery, air in the tires, oil, gas, belts etc. See where it can go. Who really cares except A-retentive obsessives If a car appeals to you thats all that matters. I get as much if not more fun from my car-mutts than any purebred plus I didn't pay for something I will be afraid to put miles on.

------------------
Tony
-------------
84 Indy Fiero 72K orig paint
83 Lotus Esprit 19K orig paint
80 Turbo Trans Am 64K orig paint
92 GP/GTP 165K! orig paint
71 Mach1 ?K orig paint!!

[This message has been edited by indypbody (edited 02-12-2003).]

I don't think you guys are comparing apples to apples. Painting a 84 to look like an indy, and adding the same after-market t-tops that the factory used are not the same thing. I have an 87 GT with c&c t-tops do I care that it is not factory ..... No. In fact if what you guys are saying is true I can mod my car without destroying its value. Besides value only comes in to play if you plan to sell it, and I don't. The sticker might gain it a little more in price, if you plan on keeping the car totally original. but once you start modding your car it makes no difference.

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LS1 v8 T-Top 87 GT

http://ls1swap.tripod.com/

quote Originally posted by Songman: I'll take you for a ride through a pressure wash anytime. I did mine before I left Bakersfield headed to the beach this weekend, and again when I got there to knock the bugs off... no leaks! My old T-top, that MinnGreenGT has, would leak in a pressure wash but never leaked on me in any of the strong Nashville rain storms when I was living there.

I think the leak in my '88 T-Top coupe could be easily resolved by simply doing some adjustments to the passenger-side window.

My Dad's car was originally a Sunroof'd Silver 88GT. He purchased the "last" official T-Top kit from the company formerly known as C&C in Brighton Michigan. We drove to the area a few days prior to the 1993 FOCOA Nationals in Pontiac Michigan- and they were ready the day before the show. This car is now officially an anomaly... as it's RPO sticker does not reflect the CJB Code, but the car is supposed to be registered as a CJB car isn the T-Top database (although we have never really checked on that).

I've also heard that there were some variations in the T-Top design, from ones sold as dealer or custom shop-installed kits to the official C&C units. I've seen the pic in the Tech area... have to see if I can find it again.

Personally- if the car is something "special", that's great that the RPO Code matches. But I'm willing to sell my CJB '88 T-Top and turn around and buy a non-CJB car... all I want to do is pull the tops and cruise around with the wind blowing!

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Looking for Fiero posters?

Maybe it took GM a couple of years to see that C&C was doing a good enough job to allow it to be a factory ordered "option". I feel that they grasped for the "Factory t-top" option as an incentive for sales in their downward sales trend, which didn't work well. Either way, all t-tops were installed at the same place by the same people regardless whether it was an 88 factory ship thru or not. That's my 2 cents worth...

Rob D.

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No motor - Soon to be a bottle fed 383 V8
2.5" Drop
11" Brakes
17" Revolutions
RCC Coilover Suspension
Updated! www.dirtyratracing.org

[This message has been edited by chester (edited 02-12-2003).]

quote Originally posted by chester: Either way, all t-tops were installed at the same place by the same people regardless whether it was an 88 factory ship thru or not.

That's definitely not the case, seeing as how C&C had quite a number of "authorized installers" located around the country. Can you imagine living in southern California and being told that your car would have to be shipped to central Michigan (at your expense) to have a $500-$1000 kit installed?

Anyway, here's the old thread I found referring to the other style T-Top with "longer" glass and less "trim" https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20021104-2-024641.html
...I still can't find the darn photo though.

[This message has been edited by MinnGreenGT (edited 02-12-2003).]

quote Originally posted by Songman: ...The fact that I have CJB T-top cars is not why I am here. Even if I didn't, my responses would be the same. That is how the collector car industry works. Bottom line...

I'll go one better. I agree that right now, it doesn't make a great deal of difference. In the future, when "collectors" are looking for a Fiero, it probably *will* make a difference.

Having said all that, I traded a CJB coded T-top car for a similar sunroof car, a couple of years ago.
Why?
There is a monopoly on T-Top parts. The ones that still exist, that is.
I was qouted a price of $800 for a set of weatherstripping! Not that mine were in bad shape, but I was afraid to park it in public. If someone wanted to break in, the T-tops or seals would probably be the first thing they would tear up. The hell with that.
And, very likely, the seals won't be reproduced. Aus was seriously considering doing just that, until he analyzed the market and decided it wasn't worth the expense or the trouble.

Sorry if I've whizzed in everyone's cornflakes.
Just my take on the whole situation.

[EDIT] To correct for brain cramp. Thanks Rob.

------------------
Raydar

88 3.4 coupe. In progress.

Out of my mind. Back in 30 minutes.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 02-12-2003).]

Let me add my two cents. I feel that already the CJB cars are worth more. That difference will increase as years go by. Yes the installs are done exactly the same. I had two t-tops one CJB and my red GT is not. I originally was cautious when I started to modify my non CJB GT. I saved all the original parts. But since it was a non CJB car I felt I was not destroying a rarer car. Now I still have all the original parts but I realize I will never return it to stock. My point is I probably would not of modifyied the car if it was a CJB car to preserve the rarer car. Luckily it was not.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: There is a monopoly on sunroof parts. The ones that still exist, that is.

Hmmm... did you mean T-Top parts?

This applies to a couple of the comments that were made this morning...

skitime... I agree. I would modify a non-CJB car, but not a CJB car. That's why my black GT is staying stock and I have other cars to modify.

Raydar... True that you always worry about the tops getting broken into or something. Luckily, when my (Rob's) coupe got broken into, the losers knocked out the side glass instead of the T-top.

Rob... See above. I had to rush to get a side glass put in before I took that car on the RFTH two years ago. A buddy of mine helped me put it in so I am sure it is not aligned.

quote Originally posted by Songman: Rob... See above. I had to rush to get a side glass put in before I took that car on the RFTH two years ago. A buddy of mine helped me put it in so I am sure it is not aligned.

I recall the story... I just haven't had the time to fix it myself either

quote Originally posted by Songman: I would modify a non-CJB car, but not a CJB car.

I'm going to weigh in here. In general, I agree. However, I havea CJB Formula that I found in the wrecking yard. It had frame damage and was gutted for it's parts. It also had VERY few options other that the T-Tops.

I am going to customize this car for 3 reasons. 1) I like options! 2) Since I need a donor car to replace all the missing stuff, the car will never be like "stock" anyway. And most importantly 3) This car will ALWAYS have a salvage title attached to it which makes it less desirable than a well maintained original CJB that is thoroughly equiped.

It's best use is as a custom fully optioned car that just happens to have the CJB code to boot.

I have to agree with that.. There are exceptions to every rule..

I would not have modified my Judge that I spoke of earlier, but I had a 69 Firebird convertible that was very well optioned - power windows, power top, a/c, scooped hood, hood tach... but for some reason they ordered it with drum brakes... It was not a Trans Am or anything so I didn't mind modifying it. The only thing was that I decided that I wouldn't do anything to it that couldn't have been stock. The farthest away from that rule I went was when I put a Hurst His-n-Hers shifter out of a 65 GTO in it. The car wasn't worth as much as an original car, but it was fun to drive...

That is what we have all been saying from the start. From a driving/enjoyment standpoint, it doesn't matter. But when you go beyond that to collectibilty, that is where you find the difference...

Anybody got a non-CJB T-top you wanna sell me? I'll take it!

i have serious doubts about CJB cars having astronomicaly higher value than a non CBJ car.

For one thing, i dont think the Judge vs. GTO is a good example in that the rare Judge's were GTO's that were DEALER modified cars, which is a very far jump from an owner trying to make a GTO a judge knock-off.

CJB Fieros were shipped to C&C, the same as non CJB cars. which makes the judge example invalid. If someone has the documentation for a non CJB car, which shows that the car was done at C&C like EVERY CJB fiero then its value difference will be microscopic at best. because the fact is, there is no real difference between the two. other than the sticker Pontiac put on the car to say "yes, we shipped this to C&C and they did all the work"

Also, if you had 2 88 GT's that were identicle in milage, color, options, and condition, both with T-Tops, one CJB and one not CJB with C&C documentation. I would bet serious money that the money raked in on both cars would differ only in a matter of pennys.

Take a look at the 87GT T-Top cars, they will pull in vastly more dollars than a stock 87, and there is no rpo code to back up the t-tops on any 87.

4 years ago i sold my 69 mack-1 mustang for $24,500. i bought it as a plane jane 351 mustang fastback for $2,300. i changed the interior to delux woodgrain, added a 428 cobra jet motor, 4speed close ratio trans, rear louvers, spoiler, front airdam, yellow/black paint sceme, Shaker RAM air, and all cobra badges. And sold the car as a copy of a 428 cobra-jet R-Code mach-1 mustang. i stated it was a reproduction and the car still pulled nearly the same amount that the real deal is selling for.

besides, in all honesty, i have serious doubts that the Fieros value is going anywhere, ever. look at the delorean. that car was produced in far fewer number than the fiero, doesnt have the fire ball history and is worldwide a more recognizably unique and collectible car. It has been over 20 years and that car, like the fiero, barely breaks its original selling price on super low mile cars.

Dont get me wrong, i LOVE fieros, and dont mean to come across as someone who is putting them down (please note i just bought my 5th Fiero) im just saying that i think WAY too much emphasis is being placed on the whole RPO T-Top code vs. value of the car thang.

my $.02, are we getting enough for a group pizza party yet?

[This message has been edited by FieroMonkey (edited 02-12-2003).]

Let me add this tidbit. Last fall our 88 GT CJB T-top was totalled when a driver pulled out in front of my daughter. She only had seat belt bruises. Since it was the other drivers fault, his insurance company had to pay for my car. Now they offered a settlement of $4100 for the car that had 119,000 which included $139 for the value of the t-top. That was a fair price for an 88 GT in the condition it was in. I informed the adjuster that this was a rare CJB coded car that was one of only a few hundred and they better look again into the value of the car. After a two more weeks I was offered $8000. I asked the adjuster how it was determined and he said they researched the value trough Pontiac dealers since the Blue Book was unable to attain the value. Now do you think the insurance company was just being generous. No way. They knew that the car infact was more valuable.

In this case "CJB code for 88 T-Tops? who cares" I do because it made the car worth nearly $4000 more.

BTW I bought it back for $450 and sold over $3000 parts of it so far. Still have the t-top parts to sell as well as the rear clip and 88 wheels. I bought the car for $3000 last summer.

[This message has been edited by skitime (edited 02-12-2003).]

quote Originally posted by FieroMonkey: CJB Fieros were shipped to C&C, the same as non CJB cars.

That is not correct Monkey Man. Non-CJB cars were either shipped to C&C or one of their subs. In California, for example, there was a company in LA, which still does T-Tops, (can't remember the name but Fiero Phil knows) that would install the T-Tops for the dealers out west. It made no sense to ship a car back across the country just for T-Tops.

In fact, Some dealers (licensed by C&C) did installs themselves.

Ironically, these subs did a better job of installation than C&C did in most cases. So non-CJB t-Tops tend to be less likely to leak but that originality thang just can't be beaten, for some.

Let's all go rip those silly RPO tags out of our cars and have a 'burnin'! We can light up the skies with the flames from those little stickers that Pontiac put on our cars just to mess with us years later! haha

BTW- The Judge was not a dealer installed option but came from the factory as a Judge. It was only offered in Carousel Red (Hugger Orange) at first and half of the 69 Judges were in this color. The Judge was invented to spark interest and try to boost lagging sales on the GTO line, which it did. Did someone say that T-tops were put on a Fiero to boost lagging sales?

We all have our opinions. I guess we'll have to wait about 20 more years to see what really happens with the 'CJB Mystery'. I can tell you that I never thought the $362 it cost to make your GTO a Judge in 1969 would be a $20,000 difference in 30 years.

Some say the Judge/T-top things are not the same... The Judge didn't have a seperate VIN code. It was just an RPO code on a GTO. I think the comparison is right on. Same thing with my Aerocoupe vs. regular Monte Carlo SS...

quote Originally posted by Songman: Let's all go rip those silly RPO tags out of our cars and have a 'burnin'! We can light up the skies with the flames from those little stickers that Pontiac put on our cars just to mess with us years later! haha BTW- The Judge was not a dealer installed option but came from the factory as a Judge. It was only offered in Carousel Red (Hugger Orange) at first and half of the 69 Judges were in this color. The Judge was invented to spark interest and try to boost lagging sales on the GTO line, which it did. Did someone say that T-tops were put on a Fiero to boost lagging sales? We all have our opinions. I guess we'll have to wait about 20 more years to see what really happens with the 'CJB Mystery'. I can tell you that I never thought the $362 it cost to make your GTO a Judge in 1969 would be a $20,000 difference in 30 years. Some say the Judge/T-top things are not the same... The Judge didn't have a seperate VIN code. It was just an RPO code on a GTO. I think the comparison is right on. Same thing with my Aerocoupe vs. regular Monte Carlo SS...

JUDGE=FACTORY built AT the factory, ie, GM

T-top Fiero=NOT factory built, ie, C&C Chisel job.

Only thing in common is RPO sticker loonys overpay for.

I realize there are exceptions like Pontiacs CanAm that were factory options like the T-top, but the CanAm was NOT a fatory built car. It was shipped off to a secondary vendor and dulled up. So I would have to say the Judge camparo is not quite the same.

I love stirr'n the pot.

-Tony

It's not really stirrin the pot.. I'm still interested in the 2 cent theory personally...

We can all find whatever we want to prove our theories. The point I keep making is that the RPO code does run the $$$ up. You said yourself that the loonies pay more for that. Call me loonie but I wll pay more for a car with the right numbers than one without.

But the fact that 'loonies will overpay' is exactly the thing we have been saying. We never said the cars were better, just worth more on the market.

And in my opinion, when GM contracts a company to build something for them, that is just as good as factory. There are a lot of contractors out there in the world that hire out to companies. When they do, the product or service they produce is said to be from the company, not the contractor. You don't have that when you (or the dealer) took your car to a C&C installation service. Because then they are not contracting for GM, but for you or your dealer. And that is the legal side of it and takes us away from the RPO battle.

quote Originally posted by Songman: Let's all go rip those silly RPO tags out of our cars and have a 'burnin'! We can light up the skies with the flames from those little stickers that Pontiac put on our cars just to mess with us years later! haha

LMAO Songman! That sounds like fun! I can just imagine the Fiero anarchy around a bondfire

Songman, I cannot dispute your logic. I will just say a car is NOT going to bring you a huge investment return regardless of options or codes. From your initial cash outlay for the vehicle to all the years one keeps it in hopes it will be the next Shelby GT500KR are foolish. I've seen cars folks don't even drive or get to enjoy for fear they will depreciate the value of their investment. By the time you add up maintenance costs, insurance, not to mention the liability of just having to store the car, well, I would think you can see my point. Take that same amount invested in the car and put that even in a money market account for the same amount of time you would have kept the car, and see the rewards.

Another .02$ worth.!!!

And you are right, bottom line is that there is that group that will ALWAYS pay more for a numbers matching car, period. So, you sir are correct.

-Tony

[This message has been edited by indypbody (edited 02-12-2003).]

I also agree with you, Tony, that a car is not an investment but is a mode of transportation. I bought my car at 64k miles and have been racking up the miles ever since. I have never been a fan of cars that just sit. They are made to be driven. That is one bad thing about me being in CA, I have all of my old cars sitting in GA not being driven...

Now with all of that CJB stuff out of the way. Let's get back to getting us CA folks together!