I know the definition:

CJBs were 1988 factory cars that were shipped through to Cars & Concepts to be modified then shipped to the dealers and sold as new cars.

The non-CJB were installed on 84-87s (and some 88s too) by a network of 180 factory authorized dealers around the country. But these kits were supplied by C&C as well.

So here is my question, if C&C supplied the hardware in both cases, what makes a CJB T-top different from a non-CJB? In other words what parts are interchangeable and what parts simply don't fit, and why?

I am looking for non-CJB parts and want to know what I should be looking for. The good news is that non-CJB parts are generally cheaper, (but not by much)

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1988 Fiero - It's like an Actual Miniature Car

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 07-11-2002).]

As I understand it, non cjb cars were the earlier design obviously, but they are diff and will not interchange with the cjb.

Phil

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GTDude
OVER 25 years GM experience

quote Originally posted by jscott1: CJBs were 1988 factory cars that were shipped through to Cars & Concepts to be modified then shipped to the dealers and sold as new cars. The non-CJB were installed on 84-87s by a network of 180 factory authorized dealers around the country. But these kits were supplied by C&C as well.

They were installed aftermarket in '88 as well. I had an '88 coupe with T-tops. The car did not have CJB on the option sticker but the documentation I got with the car showed that they were installed when the car had less than 20 miles on it.

It is my understanding that all Fiero T-top parts are interchangeable, regardless of year or factory vs. aftermarket, and the only real difference is that CJB on the option sticker makes the car more valuable because it has a rare factory option.

If I'm wrong I'd be very interested in hearing the details.

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Doug Chase
Duvall, WA
'88 Fiero Formula 5-spd (autocrosser)
'88 Fiero GT 5-spd (daily driver)
'85 Fiero GT 4-spd (rally car)

The weatherseals are different. Non-CJB cars have an extra rubber strip that goes between the headliner and the seal (around the "T"). The weatherseal on the glass is also different, so if you tried putting a set of CJB glass on a non-CJB Fiero (or vice versa) the seals will not line up.

Also, the trim caps on CJB cars were molded in the proper color, not just painted to match. Meaning, an '88 CJB car with gray interior has the caps molded in the proper dark gray and the beechwood is molded beechwood.......the kits were all light gray and were painted to match the interior of the car.

Other parts are interchangeable, although I have seen some really funky looking T-Tops......possibly some early production ones or ??, but they are missing the rear fill moldings on the roof (glass panels are bigger!). I'm sure this set-up shares very little to the "normal" T-Tops.

I wish I had a pic of what I'm talking about, but I don't.

Anyways......the CJB T-Tops and the kits are virtually the same, but only '88s were availabale as a factory orderable option and therefore only '88s have the coveted RPO code. Given the choice between two identical Fieros.....one with CJB T-Tops and teh other with a kit, I would take the CJB car everytime, but that's just my preference.

quote Originally posted by mrfiero: The weatherseals are different. Non-CJB cars have an extra rubber strip that goes between the headliner and the seal (around the "T"). The weatherseal on the glass is also different, so if you tried putting a set of CJB glass on a non-CJB Fiero (or vice versa) the seals will not line up.

This is really great information...just what I was lookking for. So if I understand you correctly the only physical differenc between CJB and non-CJB are the weather seals and the seals on the glass? Other than that I can mix and match? I didn't realize how many parts there really are until I started looking into it.

I'm not the type to worry about RPO codes. By the time I'm done my cars will share almost nothing in common with the RPO options.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 07-11-2002).]

same trash different garbage day

quote Originally posted by The Aura: same trash different garbage day

???

quote Originally posted by mrfiero: Other parts are interchangeable, although I have seen some really funky looking T-Tops......possibly some early production ones or ??, but they are missing the rear fill moldings on the roof (glass panels are bigger!). I'm sure this set-up shares very little to the "normal" T-Tops. I wish I had a pic of what I'm talking about, but I don't.

I believe this picture shows what you are talking about.

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84SE w/ T-Tops

quote Originally posted by T-top Fiero: I believe this picture shows what you are talking about.

That's it! I have seen one of these and for the life of me I don't know what it is. Was this some sort of pre-production or early C&C effort or ??

99.9% of all Fiero T-Tops have the rear fill panels and the smaller glass......I'd like to know some history on the set-up in the picture. Anyone?

Thanks for posting that.

This is the style I have on my GT. I bought them from a fourm member but can't remember his name. The glass is not interchangable. The glass on that car is a few inches longer and when the t-tops are off there is a less finished look. I think they were put on cars from c and c untill 86(ish) when they were redesigned. That's what I know.
Jamie

From what I have seen, having the CJB code will add about $1-$3,000 to the value of an 88gt versus a non CJB 88gt t-top. If you are just going to keep your car and drive it, it really doesn't matter if you have CJB or not. There just to darn fun to drive!!!!

quote Originally posted by RossT: From what I have seen, having the CJB code will add about $1-$3,000 to the value of an 88gt versus a non CJB 88gt t-top.

I'll never understand some car collector's mentality. That non-CJB T-top 88 could had it's T-tops installed at the exact same shop in Michigan as the CJB, just one was ship through and the other not. And that's worth $1,000 to $3,000?

Anyway, I just want T-tops, I could care less about the RPO codes. Now that I know the difference I will be looking for non-CJB parts, (because of the collector mentality they are cheaper, even though they are essentially the same thing)

quote Originally posted by jscott1: I'll never understand some car collector's mentality. That non-CJB T-top 88 could had it's T-tops installed at the exact same shop in Michigan as the CJB, just one was ship through and the other not. And that's worth $1,000 to $3,000?

Do you mean that an original 69 Yenco Camaro with the original big block aluminum headed 427 four speed car should be valued the same as a factory straight-6 car that's been converted to LOOK like the original (or vica-versa)?

Collectability is ALL about originalality and documentation. Just because I can make someting look like the original, doesn't mean that it is.

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Roy :D
Just another stock Blue 87 GT
Suncoast Fieros

YELLOW 1988 GT w/ T-Tops, 5-Speed, and Performance Sound.GONE!

quote Originally posted by jscott1: I'll never understand some car collector's mentality. That non-CJB T-top 88 could had it's T-tops installed at the exact same shop in Michigan as the CJB, just one was ship through and the other not. And that's worth $1,000 to $3,000?

As I recall, T-Tops with the factory option code CBJ in 1988 were installed at Fairmont Skylight located in PA somewhere. Cars & Concepts were the design firm the created the kit located in Brighton MI. I have no documentation on this information and may be a question for the 88Database guy.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Anyway, I just want T-tops, I could care less about the RPO codes. Now that I know the difference I will be looking for non-CJB parts, (because of the collector mentality they are cheaper, even though they are essentially the same thing)

Non CBJ parts? Are you speaking of the solid color molding parts mentioned above or the paint to match stuff?
FYI, all replacement parts new (if you can find such) all cost the same and will give you no price break at all.
To my knowledge there have been no 'after market' parts reproduced to date. I may be wrong on thie, so you guys 'in the know' please enlighten me!

[This message has been edited by Indiana_resto_guy (edited 07-12-2002).]

quote Originally posted by ardenQ: This is the style I have on my GT. I bought them from a fourm member but can't remember his name. The glass is not interchangable. The glass on that car is a few inches longer and when the t-tops are off there is a less finished look. I think they were put on cars from c and c untill 86(ish) when they were redesigned. That's what I know. Jamie

C&C did not produce- nor were T-Tops available for installation until the release of the 88 model year (1987).

As to where the "ship-through" location was... I always thought C&C in Brighton MI did all the work (not Fairmont Skylite) but I too could be mistaken.

My Dad purchased the last "factory T-Top" from the (former) C&C company- and had them "factory" installed at their shop in Brighton only days before the 1993 FOCOA Nationals. At the time, I was given a tour of the facility and was given some early glances at the pre-production T-top F-Bodies (cool stuff). Amazingly enough, no one even noticed that he had both the T-Tops as well as the original Sunroof glass in his car during the show!

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Looking for Fiero posters?

quote Originally posted by MinnGreenGT: C&C did not produce- nor were T-Tops available for installation until the release of the 88 model year (1987).

I don't know where you got this information from, but you are wrong on this one.
I have a copy of the C&C T-top installation manual which has an initial release date of 4/11/84. I also have the Oct. 1984 issue of Hot Rod magazine which has a small advertisement in it showing the "new" T-top conversion offered by Cars and Concepts (C&C).

I am not sure where some of you got your information. I have two t-tops, one with the code and the other that was installed prior to the first owner. All parts are the same and interchangeable. Just my two cents.

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Red 88 GT T-Top 3800 Supercharged
White 88 GT T-Top Stock
White 88 GT Stock

Good stuff. I have never seen an extended T-Top as the one pictured above.

As far as value, which Fiero below would be worth more in the years to come?

Fiero 1: 1986 GT, sunroof, 5-spd (all original)
Fiero 2: 1986 GT, T-Top, 5-spd (T-Top added as aftermarket item)

I would prefer the T-Top Fiero, even though it has an aftermarket item on it.

kv

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quote Originally posted by skitime: I am not sure where some of you got your information. I have two t-tops, one with the code and the other that was installed prior to the first owner. All parts are the same and interchangeable. Just my two cents.

The difference is in the weather seal around the "T" and the weatherseal on the glass itself.

While all the parts are interchangeable, if you put a non ship through "T" weatherseal on your CJB '88 Fiero, then you must also change the seal on the glass to match.....otherwise you'll have sealing issues. The differences between the two seals are small, but enough to have leaks, etc.

As far as teh statement that T-Tops were not available in kit form prior to the introduction of the '88 Fiero........not a chance. If that were the case then there would be no ship through seals and no kit seals......they'd all be the same.

I had no idea the T-Tops were available as far back as 1984, but I knew they were by 1986 (I have no reason to doubt the 1984 date though). C&C had developed and were selling the kits while at the same time trying to convince GM that it was something that would work and still meet their safety standards. It wasn't until the '88 model year that GM finally gave its approval.

[This message has been edited by mrfiero (edited 07-13-2002).]

First of all according to this memo from Pontiac the CJB cars were shipped to C&C in Brighton Michigan, not Fairmount Skylight in PA, (they might have been an authorized dealer for the non-CJB cars)

When I'm talking about non-CJB I'm talking about the weatherseals and the T-Top glass, (although the glass is same, the rubber seals attached are slightly different)

The plastic trim pieces are all the same, except for the color and I don't care about that.

I have had people quote me different prices for the glass depending on whether it's CJB or not. There is rationale though that the CJB glass, (with CJB seals attached) are more rare and therefore cost more, if you can find them at all. Given the higher likelhood of finding non-CJB in the yards, (for weatherseals) I would prefer Non-CJB.

Both the glass and the main weatherseal are slightly different! You really need to have them side by side to see the differences.

That is the only difference, all other parts are interchangible.

Also you could take a CJB car and replace all the weather and glass seals with non CJB seals! Likewise you could take a non CJB car and replace all the seals with CJB seals. That would work too!! But the key is you would have to replace all the seals to have the glass seal fit the main weatherseal.

When I bought my car two years ago (from mrfiero's friend) there were two 88gt's with t-tops and both had less than 1,000 miles on them. (one car had CJB and the other was non CJB, tops installed after delivery to the dealer). Both cars were optioned the same.
The CJB car sold for about $2,000 more than the non CJB car. To me, having the code would make it easier to sell, but if your just going to enjoy driving the car, I would rather pocket the 2 grand and enjoy the car.
Besides, non fiero people don't have a clue as to what CJB is, they just know you have a cool car!!!! If your intent is store the car and resell it, than it might be worth your while have the CJB. Just my thoughts..

One thing we all agree on...T-Tops are way cool, especially in Red

At our dealership we were adding t-tops on cars since 84, there were three manufacturers but the largest was C&C. We would order the car and it would be transported from the factory to C&C where the t-tops were installed. Although T-Top cars are easier to sell most of them leak, this was the number one complaint for T-Top owners.
As far as originality, if it was dealer installed (which most were) it is considered correct by collectors. By the way Chevrolet did not put in the aluminum big block in Camaros: Yenko: who was a Chevy dealer did that.

Hey Chief.......you are/were a Pontiac dealer too.........same here until 1991. Love to discuss this with you at some time if you like.

Phil

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GTDude
OVER 25 years GM experience

Hello Phil!
I was a salesman for 40 years 32 of them at Packer Pontiac (now Brickell Pontiac) in Miami. They put me out to pasture in 1998 ( mandatory retirement).

quote Originally posted by Chief: At our dealership we were adding t-tops on cars since 84, there were three manufacturers but the largest was C&C...

Are there any companies currently manuafacturing a T-Top kit for the Fiero? It doesn't look that difficult, just some sheet metal and glass. Are any of those three companies still in business I wonder?

If I had the sheet metal and glass skills I would be making the kit myself.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Are there any companies currently manuafacturing a T-Top kit for the Fiero? It doesn't look that difficult, just some sheet metal and glass. Are any of those three companies still in business I wonder? If I had the sheet metal and glass skills I would be making the kit myself.

I'd rather see a professionally available targa kit.. i think the T in the T'top roof is ugly, but i'd take it any day over my solid roof GT

[This message has been edited by The Aura (edited 07-13-2002).]

A bit off-topic...saw a very very nice 1985 SE (GT style body works) with a C&C t-top in the junkyard today...V6, 4 speed, aux gauges, tan interior, and so on. No keys for the glass so I only was able to get the overhead console. The junkyard probably paid $200 tops for that car. That's the sad part about being a "junkyard dog"...seeing really nice cars 2 weeks away from the crusher.

quote Originally posted by exspook: A bit off-topic...saw a very very nice 1985 SE (GT style body works) with a C&C t-top in the junkyard today...V6, 4 speed, aux gauges, tan interior, and so on. No keys for the glass so I only was able to get the overhead console. The junkyard probably paid $200 tops for that car. That's the sad part about being a "junkyard dog"...seeing really nice cars 2 weeks away from the crusher.

Go back with your Sawzall and cut off the entire top...PLEASE. You could sell that for $300-$500 Easy. When you are done it should look like this one currently in the mall:

And there would be people willing to pay the freight to have it shipped, another $200 or so. Please help save another set of T-tops from the crusher

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 07-14-2002).]

quote Originally posted by exspook: A bit off-topic...saw a very very nice 1985 SE (GT style body works) with a C&C t-top in the junkyard today...V6, 4 speed, aux gauges, tan interior, and so on. No keys for the glass so I only was able to get the overhead console. The junkyard probably paid $200 tops for that car. That's the sad part about being a "junkyard dog"...seeing really nice cars 2 weeks away from the crusher.

Hi Chris, Dang no keys for the glass, I was gonna say grab me the A & B pillar trim caps, and the roof weatherseals.....

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You can still get the top but you'll have to sacrifice the trim cover over the locks. Once the plastic is removed, the locks can be removed by just bacing out the screws . Then, just pop the tops and take what you can get.

Roy

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Roy :D
Just another stock Blue 87 GT
Suncoast Fieros

YELLOW 1988 GT w/ T-Tops, 5-Speed, and Performance Sound.GONE!