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LS4 / F40 Swap #2 - fieroguru by fieroguru
Started on: 08-03-2014 08:55 AM
Replies: 155 (6827 views)
Last post by: Spadesluck on 11-14-2017 12:49 PM
Bob2112
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Report this Post02-13-2017 10:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Bob2112Send a Private Message to Bob2112Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I don't have a lot of experience (none really) with prototype building of tangible items, so forgive me if this is a stupid question, but is there a reason you are making this out of metal from the start and not something easier to work with to determine the size, look & feel, etc? I would think it would be easier to build a template out of wood or some other composite material.

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fieroguru
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Report this Post02-14-2017 06:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

That is a good question...

Nearly all my R&D projects start with 16ga steel as it is quick to cut/drill/bend/form into the needed shape. Once the template is done, it is easy to take precise (+/-0.005") measurements from the part and draw the part in AutoCAD. Before I send the drawing to the machine shop for reproduction, I make a prototype from the drawing dimensions to validate their accuracy. Once I verify those, I send the drawing to the machine shop to reproduce. Once I am done with the 16ga template, I toss them on a shelf in case I need them later.

Wood isn't dimensionally stable over time, especially with changing humidity levels in a non-climate controlled garage, so getting the same level of precision would be very difficult if not impossible. There is also reduced ability to tap holes within wood as well. Plastic or composite could be an option, but metal fab and machining is my hobby, and I enjoy working with metal.

I didn't show them, but I made about 5 iterations of the 16ga templates to fine tune the 2D placement of the components. I switched to aluminum to dial in the precise 3D dimensions and create the 3D template/prototype for test fitting as well as to validate the ability to machine the part.

So in short, there normally is a method to my madness... I wouldn't say it is the best, but it works for me.

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madbrad01
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Report this Post02-20-2017 09:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for madbrad01Click Here to Email madbrad01Send a Private Message to madbrad01Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I guess life got in the way , i was so looking forward to see what got done on your project this weekend .

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KissMySSFiero
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Report this Post03-11-2017 04:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KissMySSFieroClick Here to Email KissMySSFieroSend a Private Message to KissMySSFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

anything new progress happening?

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fieroguru
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Report this Post03-11-2017 06:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Been busy with customer orders and other stuff. Probably won't get back to this for a few weeks.

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KissMySSFiero
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Report this Post05-08-2017 07:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KissMySSFieroClick Here to Email KissMySSFieroSend a Private Message to KissMySSFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Anything new to report?

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fieroguru
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Report this Post05-08-2017 07:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Nothing new... my free time is being diverted to another project at the moment. Don't see myself doing anything with this until after the HRPT.

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fieroguru
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Report this Post09-10-2017 08:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Took a little longer to get back to this...

I continue to refine the oil pressure sending housing. I flipped the location of the stock LS4 oil sender and the spare 1/4 NPT (the new one is on the left). I have one more tweak to make to the drawing and I will send it off to be quoted.


Since I am still bogged down with a few details on the custom CNC water pump and accessory bracket, I decided to work on a more simplified (relatively speaking) water manifold/thermostat housing to be used with an electric water pump. This should be speed up progress, create some other potential applications, and let me get a feel for CNC costs for this setup and the potential costs for the mechanical pump setup.



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qwikgta
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Report this Post09-11-2017 11:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for qwikgtaClick Here to Email qwikgtaSend a Private Message to qwikgtaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

** LIKE **

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fieroguru
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Report this Post10-08-2017 04:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Here are some progress pics of the water manifold/thermostat housing for an electric water pump setup. There are still a few more details to work out, but it is getting close. The integrated fill point and thermostat housing will reduce hose clutter in the engine bay.

The 1/8" wire in front of the engine is the top edge of the frame rail from my LS4/F40 Fiero.





[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 10-08-2017).]

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fieroguru
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Report this Post10-13-2017 08:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Literally chipping away at it...

It is shallower than the LS4 balancer and currently under 6 lbs with all the inlets, outlets and thermostat. Still have a few more things to verify and continue to refine the shape.

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Will
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Report this Post10-14-2017 07:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by qwikgta:

Just wanted to add this pic. This shows the longer Cadillac tripot that gives the LS swaps the needed space for the ring gear.



Rob


What's the application for this tripot?

It's only necessary when using the 168 tooth ring gear, though.

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fieroguru
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Report this Post10-14-2017 10:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
What's the application for this tripot?
It's only necessary when using the 168 tooth ring gear, though.


The secondary benefit is the axle becomes 1" longer, if you have a need for a longer PS axle.

It is a two piece tripod. Somewhere in the 90s GM started focusing on using the same axles for both driver and passenger sides. To do this with the automatic, they started using a male/male stub shaft with the same female tripod from the driver side. I have seen the stub shaft referenced in some of my axle/CV documents, but never looked it up for a part number. Here is one such reference, but there are more:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 10-14-2017).]

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Will
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Report this Post10-14-2017 12:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I know I've asked this before, but don't remember. What site is that screen cap from?
ETA: Err... just saw the mention of EMPI. What other sites do you use for this type of info?

GM did the same with the Getrag 284. That transmission has larger axle splines than the 282 or other GM FWD products of the era. The left axle includes a male/male REDUCER fitting which uses the normal female tripot with the same splines as the rest of the lineup. WTF would they specify the larger splines in the transmission and then neck them down for the axles? Weird.

The adapter shaft can of course be much better material than the tripots, which are soft as butter.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-14-2017).]

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fieroguru
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Report this Post10-14-2017 07:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Back when EMPI offered downloadable catalogs for all their axles and CVs I downloaded them nearly every year from 2008 - 2011. The various catalogs are:
Axle Buyers Guide, Axle by Application, Interchange, CV Joint Application, CV Joint Illustration, CV joint by body style (tells you all the cars that share the same platform).

I also have downloaded the Interparts various catalogs for several years as well. Those catalogs are:
CV Axle Application, CV Joint Application, Numerical Listing for CV Axle, Numerical Listing for CV Joint, Cage/Race Application, Interchange with EMPI, and a Tech document

Rockford Constant Velocity:
Bare Axle Shafts by length and spline

Mark Williams axle catalog

Every few years I get into a axle/CV/tripod research mode and seek out all the current catalogs, but sadly many are just keeping their catalogs on line now.

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fieroguru
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Report this Post10-14-2017 07:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The EMPI CV Illustration catalog has a bunch of pictures like these (15 per page, 44 pages, so over 650+ from various mfg). This is the stock Fiero Outer CV - Manual transmisssion:


Interparts has a similar but different setup. Here they have the drawing details and list every application it is used in:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 10-14-2017).]

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Will
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Report this Post10-14-2017 11:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I remember looking up the shafts on EMPI which led me to my finding that the drivers side axle from a FWD A-body with the heavy duty brakes is the right length to use on the passenger side of a Fiero with Type 2 intermediate shaft.

I just got these:



And am looking at Corvette wheel bearings, while trying to figure out how to assemble axles... possibly with these:
http://www.driveshaftshop.c...-porsche-930-cv-2196

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-29-2017).]

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fieroguru
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Report this Post10-30-2017 07:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post



The LS(x) water manifold is pretty much done. Some key features of this setup:

  • Integrated thermostat & coolant fill to simplify install and reduce hose clutter in the engine bay
  • 2 1/8" from the face of the block - making it 1/2" shallower than the LS4 harmonic balancer for installations with minimal clearance
  • 5 lb 10 oz weight for the manifold, thermostat, inlet & outlet housings and fill cap
  • Coolant inlet from the bottom will keep that hose hidden while keeping the manifold compact
  • Inlet and outlet housings sealed to manifold body by o-rings
  • Water manifold body clears stock LS4 camshaft sensor


Now I just need to finish up the drawings and send them to the CNC machine shop for quoting...
Similar manifold setups with fewer features sell for around $350. I am hoping to keep my price point at this same level, but it will all depend on what the CNC pricing will be and how many I want to have made to start with.


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Bob2112
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Report this Post10-30-2017 07:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Bob2112Send a Private Message to Bob2112Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

One for me! How's it look from the top?

------------------
New Moon Rising - 1988 Black Formula
My Blue Heaven - 1965 Mustang Coupe

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fieroguru
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Report this Post10-30-2017 09:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Here are a few more pics:





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Bob2112
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Report this Post10-30-2017 09:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Bob2112Send a Private Message to Bob2112Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Nice - seems like there might be enough real estate on the top of that for the word "Fiero" to be cut into or embossed on the metal.

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KissMySSFiero
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Report this Post11-01-2017 01:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KissMySSFieroClick Here to Email KissMySSFieroSend a Private Message to KissMySSFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

That looks nice. You may have a market in the Porsche LS swap market too.

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2tone86gt
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Report this Post11-03-2017 10:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2tone86gtClick Here to Email 2tone86gtSend a Private Message to 2tone86gtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Nice work guru. Any chance you are still planning on making the belt driven water pump setup?

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fieroguru
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Report this Post11-03-2017 01:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Bob2112:
Nice - seems like there might be enough real estate on the top of that for the word "Fiero" to be cut into or embossed on the metal.


Yes, that area is roughly 1.5 x 5 so there is plenty of room to put something there.

 
quote
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero:
That looks nice. You may have a market in the Porsche LS swap market too.


That certainly is a possibility!

 
quote
Originally posted by 2tone86gt:
Nice work guru. Any chance you are still planning on making the belt driven water pump setup?


Most certainly... I have a few options I am still working on, and another pump insert should arrive this weekend. One of these days I might line up all the thermostat housings I purchased for the water manifold project (there are around 10 of them). In the end I only used the one shown. The lower hose connection I designed and made as I wasn't real happy with the fitment or look of the others. The water pump inset coming will be #5 and that doesn't include the other LS & LT based water pumps I have on the shelf too.

BTW, I completed the cad drawings for the water manifold and have sent them off to be quoted. Hopefully the quoted price will be reasonable.

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Will
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Report this Post11-03-2017 03:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Have you look at the Northstar thermostat and "housing"?
The housing is really just the nipple for connecting the lower radiator hose. They're both pretty cheap parts. They're designed to go on the inlet side of the waterpump and balance between recirculation and radiator water. The LS thermostats operate on the same principle, of course, but the Northstar is packaged slightly differently.

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fieroguru
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Report this Post11-04-2017 08:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Have you look at the Northstar thermostat and "housing"?
The housing is really just the nipple for connecting the lower radiator hose. They're both pretty cheap parts. They're designed to go on the inlet side of the waterpump and balance between recirculation and radiator water. The LS thermostats operate on the same principle, of course, but the Northstar is packaged slightly differently.


I hadn't, but now have. It like most of the stock options are either not compact enough or clean looking. For me, the part need to function properly, look good doing it, be compact and clutter free.

My current LS4 was converted to have a thermostat on the exit side of the engine and use the 4 steam ports in the heads and the heater core loop as the bypass when the thermostat is closed. It works quite well, so I am taking the same path with this manifold setup, and will use the same approach with the belt driven one as well.

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Report this Post11-04-2017 07:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I got the quote back for the multi-port oil bypass plate and placed the initial order. It will take 3-4 weeks for them to arrive, so I went ahead and made up 4 today.

These bypass plates allow relocating the LS4 oil pressure sending unit off the valley cover (to clear other intake manifolds and reduce topside wiring) and is has two additional 1/4" NPT ports. One can be used to mount the stock Fiero oil pressure sender for the factory gauges and the 2nd one can be for some other purpose.

These bypass plates will have a brushed aluminum finish and come with a new gasket and longer bolts. Pricing will be $55 shipped in the US. Send me a PM if you want one, and I can always make more if needed.





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Report this Post11-05-2017 07:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

It was another productive weekend day.

I was able to rough in the non-AC alternator bracket and tensioner. I am waiting on a new tensioner so I can set the proper depth of the recess. I think I will explore a slightly longer belt. This one just barely slides over the pulleys and I would like to get the idler better centered between the balancer and alternator. Once I have the belt and depth determined, then I will finish with the machine work and adjust the tensioner stop so that it sits within the factory tension marks.





While waiting on the tensioner, I will probably knock out the lower bracket (I moved the alternator position, so the previous lower bracket is now scrap - all part of the R&D efforts).

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fieroguru
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Report this Post11-11-2017 05:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The alternator only accessory drive is just about done. I need to pick up a 1/2" longer belt and then I can drill the hole for the tensioner locating pin.


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Report this Post11-12-2017 06:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Here are some pictures of the finished coolant housing:







I also cleaned up the alternator brackets. So here are some installed pics of both:






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Bob2112
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Report this Post11-12-2017 11:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Bob2112Send a Private Message to Bob2112Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Looks great - did you get a quote back from the machine shop so you can decide on a for sale price?

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fieroguru
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Report this Post11-13-2017 07:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Bob2112:
Looks great - did you get a quote back from the machine shop so you can decide on a for sale price?


Thanks!

Not yet, but they are normally slow. I had to break the processes down into 12 individual machining steps to properly dimension everything, so it is a complicated piece to quote.

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qwikgta
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Report this Post11-14-2017 02:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for qwikgtaClick Here to Email qwikgtaSend a Private Message to qwikgtaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I see that this is for non a/c, is the plan to create a process to have a/c. I love what your doing and will be buying these parts when they are for sale, but on my daily driver, i want a/c. great stuff, keep it up.

Rob

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fieroguru
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Report this Post11-14-2017 06:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by qwikgta:

I see that this is for non a/c, is the plan to create a process to have a/c. I love what your doing and will be buying these parts when they are for sale, but on my daily driver, i want a/c. great stuff, keep it up.

Rob


Yes, I will be developing a setup for a mechanical water pump as well as A/C. Right now I am trying to knock out the easier/less complicated items.

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Report this Post11-14-2017 12:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for qwikgtaClick Here to Email qwikgtaSend a Private Message to qwikgtaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

thanks again.

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Report this Post11-14-2017 12:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SpadesluckSend a Private Message to SpadesluckEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Looking really nice.

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