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LS4 / F40 Swap #2 - fieroguru by fieroguru
Started on: 08-03-2014 08:55 AM
Replies: 156 (6890 views)
Last post by: fieroguru on 11-20-2017 06:57 PM
jscott1
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Report this Post12-15-2016 12:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Bob2112:

I would/will be buying parts as they are available. My thinking is if guru doesn't finish the kit, I'll just fab up the rest myself.



I don't have as much confidence in my abilities so I was waiting, (for years it seems) to be all sorted out. But I never saw where the flywheels went on sale. Was this a private sale or what?

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fieroguru
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Report this Post12-15-2016 08:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:
This might be a dumb question, but who is buying the flywheels and starter brackets when you still haven't sorted out all the details of this swap? I'm waiting for the final kit, but parts are already sold out. I'm confused.


When I started this endeavor, I made the choice that as my LS4/F40 swap parts are available, I will sell them on an individual part by part basis. I have been doing this since 2014 (with a break from Nov 2014 to March 2016 due to relocation from KY to IL) with my F40 shift bracket, reverse lockout, cable setup, HTOB and recently added the LS4 flywheel and starter bracket to the mix. If anyone wants individual parts or groups of my parts, I sell them. This allows them to get the parts and do as much as they want with their individual swap. For that parts that are not immediately available, they can buy them from other vendors or make them.

The oil bypass cap to relocate the OPSU, accessory drive bracket, water pump setup and engine/transmission mount package are the items that are currently being worked on and will be offered for sale then they are ready.

Many of these parts are more universal than just the LS4/F40. The clutch line connector works for all F23 and F40 swaps, the starter bracket can be used on other transmissions as well (made a custom one for a LS4/4L60 going into a tube chassis rock crawler), and at least one of the flywheels will be used in a non-fiero application.

It will likely take another year or two before I have every part designed, manufacturing plan developed, and offer a complete kit.


 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:
I don't have as much confidence in my abilities so I was waiting, (for years it seems) to be all sorted out. But I never saw where the flywheels went on sale. Was this a private sale or what?


• On 7/24 (1/2 way down on page 2) I posted the starter brackets parts and flywheels were on order at the machine shop.
• Around 9/13 I picked the flywheels and 2nd batch of starter bracket parts up from the machine shop.
• The following week, I sent out about 25 emails to the people who had inquired about them in the last 1-2 years.
• On 10/4 I posted a picture of the flywheels and starter mount parts in this thread (2/3rds the way down on page 2).
• Around this time I also listed the flywheels on eBay
• I had a week long Black Friday/Cyber Monday sale in the mall that included the flywheels.
• On 12/11 I posted in this thread that the first 5 flywheels were sold and asked for anyone interested in one to let me know and if there was enough interest I would do another run of flywheels. I also revised my website for this same information as well.

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jscott1
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Report this Post12-15-2016 08:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


• On 7/24 (1/2 way down on page 2) I posted the starter brackets parts and flywheels were on order at the machine shop.
• Around 9/13 I picked the flywheels and 2nd batch of starter bracket parts up from the machine shop.
• The following week, I sent out about 25 emails to the people who had inquired about them in the last 1-2 years.
• On 10/4 I posted a picture of the flywheels and starter mount parts in this thread (2/3rds the way down on page 2).
• Around this time I also listed the flywheels on eBay
• I had a week long Black Friday/Cyber Monday sale in the mall that included the flywheels.
• On 12/11 I posted in this thread that the first 5 flywheels were sold and asked for anyone interested in one to let me know and if there was enough interest I would do another run of flywheels. I also revised my website for this same information as well.


Guru, thanks for the forensic examination. Honestly I searched the Mall but did not find anything or a link to an eBay auction. I'm sorry I missed it, but I am interested in collecting parts. I've been waiting for the F40/LS4 to be sorted out. I already have the F40 in my car, but I'm sure it would have to be removed and remounted. But either way I am interested.

Please put me on your list of potential parts buyers.

thanks.

- Jonathan

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fieroguru
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Report this Post12-15-2016 09:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I will add you to the list.

Mall link:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/074825.html

Ebay link:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191...id=p3984.m1559.l2649

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jscott1
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Report this Post12-15-2016 10:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

I will add you to the list.


Eventually I would like to replace my F40/ tractor 4.9 motor with an LS4 and I'll need a lot of help to understand what I can reuse and what I need new.

Thanks.

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Report this Post12-17-2016 09:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

As a "cleaner" solution to the starter issue with LS4 installs, have you ever considered using the alternator/starter unit from a hybrid Impala?

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ericjon262
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Report this Post12-17-2016 03:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

it would if those starters operated on 12v, but they operate on 36 or 115 volts depending on the year.

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fieroguru
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Report this Post12-17-2016 05:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

As a "cleaner" solution to the starter issue with LS4 installs, have you ever considered using the alternator/starter unit from a hybrid Impala?


Nope. An alternator that requires a 65lb battery pack and controller isn't a cleaner, simplier, or cheaper solution in my book.

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Report this Post12-17-2016 08:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


Nope. An alternator that requires a 65lb battery pack and controller isn't a cleaner, simplier, or cheaper solution in my book.


Figuring out how to get that hybrid controller to talk to an LS4 doesn't sound easy at all. But from the OEM all cars should have stop/start. Then maybe the aftermarket would have solutions that could be retrofitted to older cars.

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Report this Post12-19-2016 03:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


It will likely take another year or two before I have every part designed, manufacturing plan developed, and offer a complete kit. .



Do you have a complete list of parts needed at least or have you not already thought through it that far?

I'm sure a lot is generic for any swap, but have you at least identified all the LS4/F40 unique parts? In other words it's the unknown unknowns that worry me. If I at least knew everything I needed then I would have a better idea wrapping my head around this swap.

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Report this Post12-19-2016 08:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:
Do you have a complete list of parts needed at least or have you not already thought through it that far?

I'm sure a lot is generic for any swap, but have you at least identified all the LS4/F40 unique parts? In other words it's the unknown unknowns that worry me. If I at least knew everything I needed then I would have a better idea wrapping my head around this swap.


I have been driving a LS4/F40 Fiero for 3 years and 36K miles, so... yes, I know every single part needed as well as many of the "variations" quite well. All I am doing with this swap is to change things so they can be mass produced.

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jscott1
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Report this Post12-20-2016 06:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


I have been driving a LS4/F40 Fiero for 3 years and 36K miles, so... yes, I know every single part needed as well as many of the "variations" quite well. All I am doing with this swap is to change things so they can be mass produced.


Yes, of course. I am the customer you are targeting... I can bolt stuff on but fabrication skills close to zero. I'm just looking for a shopping list so when I start buying parts piece meal I know when I'm done.

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Report this Post12-20-2016 08:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:
...I am the customer you are targeting... I can bolt stuff on but fabrication skills close to zero.
...


Sounds an awful lot like me.

Paul, I have a quick question. You may have even addressed this, elsewhere, and I missed it.
The face of the flywheel. How far does it sit "above" the face of the block, where the tranny bolts on. Is it close to the same as the stock V6?
Where I'm going with this, is whether I can adapt my "favorite" Beretta Getrag, and use "off the shelf" clutch parts.
Also... does the "seam" where the tranny meets the engine sit in a place that will allow the Getrag to remain (relatively) in the stock position? ...i.e., within the limits of the slots on the cradle?
One thing I'm looking for in a swap (whatever I do) is something that will be compatible with a Fiero or Beretta Getrag, and the stock axles.

Thanks!

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 12-20-2016).]

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Report this Post12-20-2016 11:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KissMySSFieroClick Here to Email KissMySSFieroSend a Private Message to KissMySSFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:


Sounds an awful lot like me.

Paul, I have a quick question. You may have even addressed this, elsewhere, and I missed it.
The face of the flywheel. How far does it sit "above" the face of the block, where the tranny bolts on. Is it close to the same as the stock V6?
Where I'm going with this, is whether I can adapt my "favorite" Beretta Getrag, and use "off the shelf" clutch parts.
Also... does the "seam" where the tranny meets the engine sit in a place that will allow the Getrag to remain (relatively) in the stock position? ...i.e., within the limits of the slots on the cradle?
One thing I'm looking for in a swap (whatever I do) is something that will be compatible with a Fiero or Beretta Getrag, and the stock axles.

Thanks!



This is exactly what I want to do.
IIRC, the stock ls1 flywheel is about the same thickness as the stock fiero FW.
The LS FW is larger in diameter. 168 tooth gear.
Fiero is 142(3). I'm going to machine the LS FW to fit the fiero ring gear and have the
fiero clutch pattern drilled on the LS FW. Now I have an ls4 FW. I had access to the lathe but don't anymore.
So I'll have to find a machine shop now.
Of course, it may not work. Cutting the FW myself made it a cheap tryout if it didn't work. I got a billet FW for under $100
I want to see if the f23 will work but I don't think it will.
The axle tripod is closer to the block on the f23 than the getrag. If it doesn't, the HTOB getrag should.

Hopefully fiero guru can shed some light on the topic. I haven't touched my ls4 in over a year

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Report this Post12-21-2016 08:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero:
IIRC, the stock ls1 flywheel is about the same thickness as the stock fiero FW.
The LS FW is larger in diameter. 168 tooth gear.
Fiero is 142(3). I'm going to machine the LS FW to fit the fiero ring gear and have the
fiero clutch pattern drilled on the LS FW. Now I have an ls4 FW. I had access to the lathe but don't anymore.
So I'll have to find a machine shop now.
Of course, it may not work. Cutting the FW myself made it a cheap tryout if it didn't work. I got a billet FW for under $100
I want to see if the f23 will work but I don't think it will.
The axle tripod is closer to the block on the f23 than the getrag. If it doesn't, the HTOB getrag should.



Correct. The LS4 was setup with a FWD format which means the crankshaft flange is essentially flush with the bellhousing surface, so you need a flywheel in the .82" thick range (just like the typical Fiero manual engine swaps). The RWD flywheels are about this thick, just much too large in diameter, so you can buy a billet steel one and turn it down. The F40 requires a much thicker flywheel, but that is due to the transmission, not the engine choice.

There is room to place the engine/transmission very close to the stock Fiero position side to side, which creates the potential opportunity to use stock Fiero axles. However, it might still require some parts swapping. The Fiero inner tripod housings are quite large in diameter and the LSx block is a deep skirted Y block, so the block is wider and the comes down about 2" lower than the Fiero 2.8 or the SBC which greatly reduces room for the tripods.

I have confirmed that there isn't room for the Fiero sized tripod on the passenger side with the F40 and LS4 combination, but Archie did use a stock passenger side Fiero axle with a swapped inner tripod on at least one of his LSx/Getrag 282 swaps. He needed to swap the inter tripod to make the axle effectively longer due to engine placement with an adapter plate, but I don't know if the tripod selection also helped from a diameter perspective. One of these days I need to pull the Getrag 282 out of storage and mock it up with one of the LS4s to confirm the axle situation.

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Report this Post12-21-2016 07:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for qwikgtaClick Here to Email qwikgtaSend a Private Message to qwikgtaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Just wanted to add this pic. This shows the longer Cadillac tripot that gives the LS swaps the needed space for the ring gear.



Rob

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Report this Post12-21-2016 07:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnSmithClick Here to Email JohnSmithSend a Private Message to JohnSmithEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Just subscribing, loving the progress so far.

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fieroguru
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Report this Post01-22-2017 06:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The last few weeks have been super busy with other stuff, but today I was able to continue trimming the accessory bracket. It now bolts flush with the block, not I need to trim and notch the AC mount and Alternator mount... maybe next weekend.

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Report this Post01-23-2017 11:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2tone86gtClick Here to Email 2tone86gtSend a Private Message to 2tone86gtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Awesome work my friend can't wait to see the final result.

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Report this Post01-29-2017 05:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KissMySSFieroClick Here to Email KissMySSFieroSend a Private Message to KissMySSFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Nice to see something happening. I'm a little closer to working on my LS4. I moved my f23 to the garage.

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Report this Post01-29-2017 06:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I made a lot more aluminum chips today...





I still need to fine tune the AC mounting pockets to line up the AC and crank pulley, but it is good to start seeing it take shape.

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ericjon262
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Report this Post01-29-2017 06:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

that looks awesome! good job!

------------------
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

"The day I tried to live, I stole a thousand beggars' change and gave it to the rich."
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

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Report this Post01-29-2017 07:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Bob2112Send a Private Message to Bob2112Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

This is great to see. I'm still getting a house sold and doing some work on my new workshop, but I'll be ready to buy these parts as you finish them.

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Report this Post01-30-2017 07:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KissMySSFieroClick Here to Email KissMySSFieroSend a Private Message to KissMySSFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

What kind of compressor is that?

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Report this Post01-30-2017 08:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero:

What kind of compressor is that?


Stock LS4.

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Report this Post02-05-2017 05:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

It doesn't look like much of a change, but I made a pulley alignment tool, machined the AC pockets deeper to align the AC pulley with the crankshaft pulley, did a little more machine work to fit the alternator, mocked up the alternator placement with the pulley aligned to the other 2 pulleys, located the mounting holes, and drilled/tapped them. I also did a little machine work on the back side to clear the head (it sits proud of the face of the block).



Now I need to start milling the pocket for the water pump insert...

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Report this Post02-05-2017 06:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for madbrad01Click Here to Email madbrad01Send a Private Message to madbrad01Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

looks good ! Keep up the good work.

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Report this Post02-05-2017 10:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for madbrad01Click Here to Email madbrad01Send a Private Message to madbrad01Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Hey paul , have you checked the size of a LSA water pump ?

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Report this Post02-06-2017 08:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by madbrad01:

Hey paul , have you checked the size of a LSA water pump ?


The LSA, LS3 and LS7 water pumps are all the same (#19180610) and I have one tucked under the bench. The issue with any of the Gen III or Gen IV stock water pumps is the location of the thermostat housing and heater line ports as they would be into the frame rail right below the strut tower. The other issue is the pulley depth would require a significant frame notch (which I am planning to avoid entirely).

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Report this Post02-06-2017 09:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2tone86gtClick Here to Email 2tone86gtSend a Private Message to 2tone86gtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Is the alternator going to be serviceable when in the car?

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Report this Post02-06-2017 07:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by 2tone86gt:

Is the alternator going to be serviceable when in the car?


Serviceable? Certainly... but it might be more work than some would like.

There is a chance that you could remove all 4 bolts, but 2 would be above the double firewall and 2 below. Worst case everything in the swap will allow you to loosen the front cradle bolts, remove the rear cradle bolts, and rock the cradle back to access the alternator mounting bolts. This is how my LS4 swap is and I have done it once. Not really a big deal, but some won't like it.

One of my modifying philosophies is I would rather have more effort for repairs that happen 1 time every 5 years than to see excessive clutter in the engine bay every time I open the decklid.

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Report this Post02-07-2017 02:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gwhite18Click Here to Email Gwhite18Send a Private Message to Gwhite18Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Here's to hoping you make some of these parts available for sale. There's an ls4/4t65e is in my future some time.

[This message has been edited by Gwhite18 (edited 02-07-2017).]

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Report this Post02-07-2017 10:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for madbrad01Click Here to Email madbrad01Send a Private Message to madbrad01Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Same as gwhite18, im intersted in the ls4 swap,My 4.9 swap is boring me. So paul if you need anything to make this happen, let me know.

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Report this Post02-11-2017 05:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Today I was able to get the pocket for the water pump insert milled.

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Report this Post02-12-2017 04:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Made a little more progress...

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KissMySSFiero
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Report this Post02-12-2017 05:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KissMySSFieroClick Here to Email KissMySSFieroSend a Private Message to KissMySSFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Looking good as usual.
How is the bottom ear of the alternator attached?
Are you planning to use it on the turbo car? or do you have another plan for testing?

------------------
SSFiero@Aol.com

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fieroguru
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Report this Post02-12-2017 07:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The bottom of the alternator will have a steel bracket that will squeeze between the alternator and AC compressor. I haven't made it yet... Right now I am working to get everything in position, to a test fit to verify fitment and lock down the drivetrain position so I can finish the mounts.

As for testing, I haven't really decided on a path. I am finding it really difficult to bring myself to taking the LS4/F40 car apart... The winter so far has been very mild and next weekend it is going to be in the 60s for 4 days. I will likely drive it a few of those as long as we get some rain to wash the salt off the roads. With the mild winter and plans to enjoy the car this spring/summer I will likely delay the turbo upgrade and focus on wrapping the car to make the exterior less of a disaster.

At this moment, the best way to test the pump is to finish this 2nd swap and buy another 88 locally to swap it into for testing/debugging. Then I would have 2 LS4/F40 Fieros and then the thought of taking my first one down for the turbo upgrade would still leave me able to drive the other one.

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qwikgta
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Report this Post02-12-2017 08:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for qwikgtaClick Here to Email qwikgtaSend a Private Message to qwikgtaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

and don't forget all the work for an 88 LS4/auto swap. I'm enjoying the auto trans in my daily driver, but the 3800 just doesn't have the "umph" that my LS3 car has. I see a LS4/Auto in my future.

Rob

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KissMySSFiero
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Report this Post02-13-2017 10:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for KissMySSFieroClick Here to Email KissMySSFieroSend a Private Message to KissMySSFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I'm curious to see how the water manifold will turn out.
Do you have a timeframe in mind for the front accessories to be done?

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fieroguru
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Report this Post02-13-2017 06:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by qwikgta:
and don't forget all the work for an 88 LS4/auto swap.


That swap is at least a year away unless I get more motivated to do it. I will probably have more motivation to put and LS4 in my Colorado first...

 
quote
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero:
Do you have a timeframe in mind for the front accessories to be done?


Most of my free time during the week is spent filling customer orders. I get about 8 hrs on the weekend to work on "something" and right now I am trying to keep that something the water pump and accessory drive. There is still a lot of work to machine the coolant inlet, the water passages in both parts, thermostat housing, tensioner pocket and general shaping of the pump. If when I am done it doesn't work or doesn't look good, I will toss it in the scrap metal bin and start over.

So there isn't a time frame I am targeting for the pump/accessory drive. It is my primary project right now, but I don't have an ETA for completion.

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