The only reason I'm asking is because I'm noticing the number of visitors to PFF has been steadily decreasing over the past two years. Yes, I realize there are more Fiero sites out there and that they might be eating into PFF's traffic, but I see a major decline in "organic" traffic. Meaning, people coming in from search engines. People simply search less and less for Fiero related subjects on the major search engines.
So is the Fiero market slowly dying? There are a finite number of Fiero's still in existence, and that number is getting smaller and smaller since no new Fiero's are being made and more and more Fiero's are "destroyed".
So what do you think? How long before the Fiero is nothing more than a fond memory?
How 'fond' that memory is depends on who you talk to.
I am surprised at how much of a younger crowd that the Fiero has. More often it's the generation older than me giving me crap about the 'fire hazard' bs, but the younger crowd that approaches me about my car has nothing but positive & ideas for continued improvement of performance & style.
I think that there are a lot of fiero enthusiast but less fieros on the road, but at the same time a lot of fieros are geting fixed and geting the respect that they deserve. you can see at face book a lot of groups growing with a lot of members from diferent parts of the world and those type of social media are booming. we have here in Puerto Rico a growing comunity of Fiero owners restoring their cars, we have a group in facebook. caribbean fiero owners club, visit and enjoy
[This message has been edited by Chelo Fiero (edited 11-22-2013).]
I think that the people who remember and look up these cars are dying off. If you look around at the pics from the 30th you will see that the age group average is more than 45 years old. Most of these people will never see the 50th.. I am probably one of them too for I am 51. The younger generations do not appreciate our little cars because they don't have the super sport reputation ricers have. Put a high powered fiero in a Fast & Furious movie you'll see a drastic change in this mentality..... regards Danyel
One, is that the existing Fiero population continues to dwindle. Its been asked on here, how many are still left? Some people say its a quarter, a third or more. I don't think so; I'd be surprised if its more than 10 percent remaining out of five year's production. And since they continue to show up in junkyards, the number remaining continues to drop.
Second, is part of a trend involving forums of all kinds. I've seen just about every forum I ever look at drop in activity over the last few years, some remarkably so. I can't think of any exceptions right offhand. Is it because of Facebook and other social media? Perhaps. I'm not on Facebook so I don't know what it has to offer. But any forum that's more than a few years old that's not slowing down has got to be an exception.
The other Fiero forums are like watching tumbleweeds blow around.
I think that the people who remember and look up these cars are dying off. If you look around at the pics from the 30th you will see that the age group average is more than 45 years old. Most of these people will never see the 50th.. I am probably one of them too for I am 51. The younger generations do not appreciate our little cars because they don't have the super sport reputation ricers have. Put a high powered fiero in a Fast & Furious movie you'll see a drastic change in this mentality..... regards Danyel
Well Danyel, I will have to disagree with your younger generation statement not appreciating the fiero. I am 20 and i love my fiero. I also love the great support and help of the Pennocks "family" i have had no other car with such a following. I for one hope there will continue to be people like me, (younger) that get bit by the "fiero bug". I hope they have a chance to experience the greatness that is Fiero. haha. just my $0.02
------------------ 1984 Pontiac Fiero SE Silver 2.5l 4-speed 4.10 1980 Chevrolet Citation Primered 2.5l Auto 1999 Kawasaki Drifter VN1500J Deep Gooseberry Purple 2005 Kawasaki Vulcan Classic VN800B Candy Red
I agree with css9450. I'll bet if you talked to the administrators for the most favored Ford Probe site, the 3000GT site, mustang, Jensen-Healey and so on they are all reporting fewer searches on the internet for their cars. Fewer cars every year, old technology and generally way more things to take up a person's time. those that have interest have a lot of interest whether young or old(er) but overall the population is becoming less interested. I'll bet there are on occassion spikes to traffic on the sites but at some point the market need is met and there aren't enough new people interested.
Just in the short time I've been on here some of the names that were posting on here have disappeared. they are probably still lurking, just not posting. PFF is still relevant and very important to a great many people. Thanks Cliff for providing such an awesome site.
------------------ 1986 Fiero GT Fastback 3.4Lpr with 4T60 1979 Naked Honda Goldwing - sold 1983 Honda Goldwing 1100 Interstate
I'll bet if you talked to the administrators for the most favored Ford Probe site, the 3000GT site, mustang, Jensen-Healey and so on they are all reporting fewer searches on the internet for their cars.
And its not just car forums either; the sports forums I follow, photography, Garage Journal, model trains... etc, etc. All are down. Some are way down.
We are in a transitional period. Pennock's is what allows the knowledge transfer to happen. If it wasn't for this site, it would be very difficult for that to happen. I see new blood interested in the FIero all the time...once they have been introduced...that is the Key! A few video games and a spot in a good movie...always helps. All you have to do is get one of the younger generation to drive them...once they do that they are hooked!
I also think it is a combination of quite a few things.
Forums: As mentioned, Forums in general seem to be going the way of the BBS (For those that remember them) Now there are many other options for asking or posting about something, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and many many others. I am a Super Moderator on the MP3Car.com forums, and that forum had hundreds of posts a day, just a couple years ago. Now maybe a post or 2 a day. While I consider forums to be invaluable for finding and sharing information, building communities and making real world friends, it is an older technology.
Age of the community: While there are exceptions, the average demographic of Fiero owners are over the age of 50. I will be there in a few years myself. Look at group photo's from most Fiero events, and it is clear to see this. So it is just a matter of fact that the support base for the Fiero is "aging out".
The Fiero itself: When you tell another car buff that you have a Fiero, do you cringe a little waiting for their response? It usually takes some arguing and explaining to justify why we like the car. This makes it clear that the Fiero is not received well by the general public, or other car buffs for that matter. It certainly is not something that most younger people would think "Oooo I wish I had a Fiero!". They are head turners for the younger crowd, as most do not know what it is, and have never seen one. Head turners for the older crowd for nostalgia.... you know the typical guy at the gas station that "Yea I had one from the factory with a V8, but it caught on fire" LOL
With all of this said, it is THIS FORUM that keeps on going, maybe a little slower than 2 years ago, but is still very active, relevant , and a much needed resource. I personally would be absolutely lost if PFF did not exist, and honestly probably would not have my Fiero.
Due to this forumL I have been a part of the Tyler Project and related car shows for the past 5 years, The Joel Project, flew out to help Stuart getting his dew wipe production back on schedule, been a part of the Daytona show last year and this year..... Through all of this making many many "real world" friends along the way, all made possible with this forum. Thank you Cliff! ! !
EDIT: Here is a chart I pulled from VBulitin last year, it clearly shows the decline in new posts in the MP3Car forums. I ran this chart when I was wondering the same thing, Is the forum slowing down? This was one of the most active forums I had ever been on. I have a SINGLE THREAD over there that has 5,570 posts in it, for instance. That would be the equivalent of a thread here on PFF that was 255 pages long!
You can see by the chart roughly an 80% ~ 90% decrease in posts from Jan 08 till Nov 12th.
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 11-22-2013).]
What I find ironic is that a lot of Fieros that I have seen in salvage yards and in people`s yards who own a number of them often don`t look like they need a whole lot of attention. Most of them I have seen aren`t wrecked and are in pretty good shape as far as the interior and body. I always wondered what made people just give up on them and call a yard to tow them off even if they just need a little love. I think Pennocks is a very valuable forum as I know that when I got my first Fiero I didn`t know it existed but when I found out, then the information just flowed.
I think Facebook is cutting into PFF traffic quite a bit. There are 3 or 4 large facebook groups that are pretty active on a daily basis.
I do think there is a young following for the Fiero, but they are much more comfortable on Facebook and only end up over here when someone links to a post from facebook.
------------------ --Jeff aka mrfred8 - 88 Yellow GT - 86 Silver SE / 3800 s/c Fieros For Sale
[This message has been edited by mrfred8 (edited 11-22-2013).]
I think Facebook is cutting into PFF traffic quite a bit. There are 3 or 4 large facebook groups that are pretty active on a daily basis.
I do think there is a young following for the Fiero, but they are much more comfortable on Facebook and only end up over here when someone links to a post from facebook.
I too have noticed the slowdown on PFF... I used to check in and the front page threads were all new. Now after a couple of days the same threads are on page one.
And I also see Facebook as being more relevant. Not just for younger folks. In fact most middle age folks are on facebook. The technology has a lot to do with it. I have facebook on my phone, tablet and computer. I could be in a meeting with the President of the United States and if my phone buzzes I might take a look to see who posted on my facebook page. PFF is not so mobile friendly despite the early adopter friendly PFF for PDA. The technology simply hasn't kept up with forums in general.
But as for the Fiero in general, I see a Corvair like future ahead for it. It will still be fondly remembered by some but it's no Camaro or Mustang or Charger. There will be no retro version of the Fiero built in the next decade or two.
I am a new member to this forum, I have read quite a few threads here and elsewhere in other forums, and in my opinion, it just seems like their are a lot of over opinionated members that qwite frankly discourage some new members from even posting a question for fear of disparaging ,belittling remarks in response to the questions often asked by newer and sometimes even seasoned members, I guess that's my take on the decline, theirs always gonna be BULLIES. AND KNOW IT ALLS,. THAT SAID I LOVE THIS PLACE, AND AM GLAD TO BE HERE....HOPE IT INCREASES IN MEMBERS...FC.
Yes, but it is less than a month old. Also, you said "I'm noticing the number of visitors to PFF has been steadily decreasing over the past two years." So that is what we were responding to for the most part, traffic here.
It seems I am the 2nd person to "like: the Facebook page, so it has not been well publicized. You may see it pick up a little, as I just invited around 30 Fiero Folks that I have on my list to check it out. Uf they tell their friends, and their friends........
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 11-22-2013).]
Yes, but it is less than a month old. Also, you said "I'm noticing the number of visitors to PFF has been steadily decreasing over the past two years." So that is what we were responding to for the most part, traffic here.
That's what the winking smiley was for. I created that page only about a month ago. And the only reason I created it was just to see what a fan/business page would look like. Not because I had some serious plans with it.
I'm not very Facebook-savvy so I have no idea what a facebook group is. What's the difference between a facebook group and an ordinary facebook page?
The main difference to me as far as fostering discussion is that on FB Pages only posts from the Page itself gets good visibility, on a FB Group all posts get the same visibility.
For example, in https://www.facebook.com/pa...usiasts/237276541486 you have to go expand the "posts by others" section in the right column to see posts made by general users and the responses (which tend to be few).
Yup definitely noticed that things have slowed down. Does this cause you a problem long term Cliff? Will there be a traffic limit where you would consider plug pulling?
Would be interesting to know how much things have slowed down for the Fiero vendors vs forum to see if there may be some Faceache link to a less busy forum or linked to general decline in Fiero following. Most loikely some combination thereof.
Mayhaps a quieter forum will deter attention seekers as they won't have the audience they crave?
Another reason not to like facebook. It apparently is a contributing forum killer!
Anyway sure, the enthusiasts will wain as the car gets older and older, (they stopped making them you know) . But it will be a while before they dwindle much, and getting slower just means who is left is more dedicated I mean there are still fan bases for cars alot older than ours, even cars less popular than ours. Also as generations pass on, their cars will get sold to new enthusiasts.
Like some have said this is the best and busiest forum I have ever seen or been on. Beats out something as common as a Chevy S10 forum, for activity and helpfulness and knowledge pool.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 11-22-2013).]
Due to this forumL I have been a part of the Tyler Project and related car shows for the past 5 years, The Joel Project, flew out to help Stuart getting his dew wipe production back on schedule, been a part of the Daytona show last year and this year..... Through all of this making many many "real world" friends along the way, all made possible with this forum. Thank you Cliff! ! !
I echo this sentiment. I met many good folks through the Tyler project, the annual Tyler Shipman Memorioal Carshow, and all the subsequent adventures and shows I may have not gone to otherwise.
Beats out something as common as a Chevy S10 forum, for activity and helpfulness and knowledge pool.
Funny that you should mentioned S10s. When I had mine (2004-2006), I was on a very large and active forum called s-series.org. I even wrote a cool how-to about upgrading gauge clusters with tachometers from earlier model trucks so that they looked factory stock and worked correctly on later-model trucks.
The forum appears to have vanished and the domain name is available.
Does tech stuff stay archived on the Facebook site or does it fade away eventually?
[This message has been edited by css9450 (edited 11-22-2013).]
I'd say FB has cut into PFF seriously. Plus the GREAT thing about doing it through FB is that you can block people from seeing your posts. As Cad put it, there are a lot of "bullies" on here. Bullies have been allowed to dominate conversations. There was one just the other day that was giving a guy a hard time about his Veyron rebody on FB. They blocked him and deleted his posts, but the thread stayed in tact. And of course, we only have so much time to devote to a site, why deal with unpleasantness? We have lost some great members posting on here because of bullying. I know one builder that quit posting on here for those type of reasons. And i'm not talking about a "checkbook" builder, and he had fresh ideas.
After all the YEARS of V-8 Archie bashing, it is nice to know that there is an option to block those type of people and hopefully they have migrated to their own FB page. I always enjoyed seeing what Archie had going but got tired of a few always starting crap.
Decline in cars has a lot to do with it, also.
Like Jonathan wrote, previously you had a tough time catching up on the first page. Now, it can go days with hardly any movement.
I was searching for information on here and most of the threads and websites that were mentioned are no longer valid. Just like with passing of PFF members, I have a concern that some very useful information will be lost with them. The Databases are one of them. Just like Blacktree took up the torch on the 1/4 mile times here on PFF, Some could be lost.
But as you can see from my posting, still coming here.
Ha! You think it's dying now? Wait till the yards stop yielding Fiero's. Then you're really going to see less interest in people attempting to acquire & fix up this little car. Kit
Yes, Cliff. Sorry for choosing the wrong words. I literally just got through looking for C203 and C500 pin outs and of the 5 I looked at 3 were dead sites.
quote
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock:
Odd. All threads ever started on PFF still exist. Or are you talking about links to threads on other forums?
I can see the attraction of social media but they are pretty bad as sources of information. If I understand correctly, you can't search for posts. So although FB is great for showing of your ride, it's terrible for trying to find some information. I also wonder how well Facebook pages/groups scale with a huge amount of active posters.
I'm currently working on a complete new platform for PFF. It's going to take a while before it will see the light of day but I'm already wondering if it's going to be worth the effort.
Here is my thoughts. I like fb groups because people tend to behave a bit more rationally because they aren't hiding behind a screen name (for the most part). I have been using PFF for a very long time and made the transition from the fiero mail list, remember that? There is tons of fantastic info on here. However, there is an equal amount of chest thumping and pure rubbish as well. Its hard to find anything you need because there is so much to filter through. With that said, I know this site isn't free, and I do appreciate that it is available for us Cliff.
I can see the attraction of social media but they are pretty bad as sources of information. If I understand correctly, you can't search for posts. So although FB is great for showing of your ride, it's terrible for trying to find some information. I also wonder how well Facebook pages/groups scale with a huge amount of active posters.
I'm currently working on a complete new platform for PFF. It's going to take a while before it will see the light of day but I'm already wondering if it's going to be worth the effort.
Some of the younger crowd (people around my age) are unaware of Fieros. Alot of people I know are either into Hondas, Mustangs, WRX's, STi's, Camaro's, etc. I mention I like Fieros and they either have no idea or they think they are "gay" but do not know. But those people I do know are apart of forums as well. I am on alot of Forums and alot of them are not as active as this forum, some are dying and they are not even that old.
As far as Facebook is concern, its great to keep up with friends and family. But some of the groups (not the Fiero groups) I have been on, there is alot of bullying. A Facebook Group on Fieros wouldn't touch the knowledge base that is on this Forum.
I can see the attraction of social media but they are pretty bad as sources of information. If I understand correctly, you can't search for posts. So although FB is great for showing of your ride, it's terrible for trying to find some information. I also wonder how well Facebook pages/groups scale with a huge amount of active posters.
I'm currently working on a complete new platform for PFF. It's going to take a while before it will see the light of day but I'm already wondering if it's going to be worth the effort.
This sounds interesting...
PFF has a wealth of information and would hate to lose that. Facebook groups are great for the right here right now aspect. But as a wealth of information not so much. Forums are like huge encyclopedias that are chocked full of information but lack the social aspect. Hopefully Cliff is working on something that combines both aspects?
The slowdown of the Fiero is inevitable. It's never going to be like a 57 Bel Air or a 64 Mustang, or name any other car with a huge following. It was popular in it's day, and a dedicated group of us have kept it popular far longer than most 80s cars. But long term? Not sure what the future holds.
The only reason I'm asking is because I'm noticing the number of visitors to PFF has been steadily decreasing over the past two years. Yes, I realize there are more Fiero sites out there and that they might be eating into PFF's traffic, but I see a major decline in "organic" traffic. Meaning, people coming in from search engines. People simply search less and less for Fiero related subjects on the major search engines.
So is the Fiero market slowly dying? There are a finite number of Fiero's still in existence, and that number is getting smaller and smaller since no new Fiero's are being made and more and more Fiero's are "destroyed".
So what do you think? How long before the Fiero is nothing more than a fond memory?
Yep, it's inevitable. The car/platform is getting older and more obsolete. More and more niche forums are popping up. I'm sure FB is taking some visitors but the younger crowd (my teenagers) think FB is old school and use Twitter instead.
A Google search for Fiero has PFF as number two and three on the list. Bing has PFF number 3.
I think one item that has hurt is the leaving of several old-time contributers. I'm sure they take a bit of a following with them every time.
. But it will be a while before they dwindle much, and getting slower just means who is left is more dedicated 
