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Any and all things 3.4 DOHC........... by pavo_roddy
Started on: 11-22-2006 12:30 AM
Replies: 1226 (63352 views)
Last post by: 355Fiero on 12-05-2017 07:32 PM
pavo_roddy
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Report this Post11-22-2006 12:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pavo_roddySend a Private Message to pavo_roddyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
HI all,

OK! Let's start this one anew peeps! Now, before we begin this topic I am gonna have to say that I'LL bring up DKOV and OTHERS in this thread, if you don't wish to play NICE here then go to the other thread about positive info on DKOV..... Pretty much ALL of us are aware of what happened with DKOV, and it is a tragedy for you, what this thread hopes to accomlish is to bring awareness of the potentiality of this DOHC motor.... NOW some people are ONLY AWARE of what others have to say about Scott, or DKOV, and what happened! YES, there are some people whom haven't done business with him at all, if I so CHOOSE to do business with him, then that is my business NOT yours! WE DON'T NEED ANYMORE FLAME WARS concerning ANYONE IN ANY THREAD..... MAYBE DKOV had some great IDEAS about the motor, maybe he didn't, this thread as a whole would be about discussing this motor and is possiblities, NOW PWEEEEEEEEEAAAAASE PLAY NICE..... The newbies that wanna work with this engine need help with it, NOT remarks to the otherwise....... SO, all I am saying is that I WOULD LIKE TO KEEP THIS THREAD ABOUT THE 3.4 DOHC motor..........

------------------
Me, I sell engines, the cars are for free, I need something to crate the engines in....
Enzo Ferrari....

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Report this Post11-22-2006 12:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pavo_roddySend a Private Message to pavo_roddyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hi all,

The sweetest sounding DOHC I've ever heard and what I would like mine to sound like! Even though it is labeled as DKOV's engine, it is infact not his but, someone else's motor.... All I can really say about this file is that it is from a cutlass and a member over at http://www.60degreev6.com says it is now his motor... SappySE107 is his screen name there... I talked with him a lil bit and he says the exhaust is an OEM setup with a leak, though I am currently asking what kinda mods may have been done with the motor..... Check it out over at 60degree if you wish.... Topic title, "Anyone know the owner of this DOHC?"....

Sound file: http://media.putfile.com/DKOVs-engine
Sound file: http://media.putfile.com/34DOHC-startidlerev From Steven Snyder's build thread, link below..
Sound file: http://media.putfile.com/34DOHC-startdriveoff From Steven Snyder's build thread..
Sound file: http://media.putfile.com/AVI_0687 From member Kohburn
edit: Could anyone who has done this swap list their mods done to the engine, and the future mods to the engine..... The more the better...LOL, I would like to see this become a super thread, like bubba's......Also, if you list your mods, PLEASE tell us the all important WHY, to save us " Tuning for Dummies" the trouble of asking.......lol......

[This message has been edited by pavo_roddy (edited 11-24-2006).]

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Report this Post11-22-2006 12:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NSAN1TClick Here to Email NSAN1TSend a Private Message to NSAN1TEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well putting things in the past and moving on.....

I've been trying to pull this swap off for a while. I've talked to other people about this swap, and I've been lead to beleive that for the RPM band of this motor, the Isuzu is the best tranny, gearing wise.

As far performance upgrades, I talked to someone over at DOHC performance (or something similar) 2 years ago and he had a GP with a 96 3.4 and was setting up a Garrett twin turbo setup with a dual intake system for each side of the motor. each side had its own turbo. Was an amazing setup. He didn't have the wiring or comp setup yet when i seen it though..
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Report this Post11-22-2006 01:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pdx nitroClick Here to visit pdx nitro's HomePageClick Here to Email pdx nitroSend a Private Message to pdx nitroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Pavo_Roddy You have a pm
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Report this Post11-22-2006 01:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pdx nitroClick Here to visit pdx nitro's HomePageClick Here to Email pdx nitroSend a Private Message to pdx nitroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
and another
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[This message has been edited by Emc209i (edited 12-05-2008).]

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Report this Post11-22-2006 09:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olaf_fiero27Click Here to Email olaf_fiero27Send a Private Message to olaf_fiero27Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
does anyone have a link or a complete set of pics of an LQ1 rebuild ?
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Report this Post11-22-2006 10:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 86GT3.4DOHCSend a Private Message to 86GT3.4DOHCEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Cam timing will give a nice boost, supposedly at the cost of low end, but I never noticed and loss

putting in diffrent injectors will not help at all, and will flood the engine unless you have the ECM reprogramed, the only point to this would be if you were boosting it.

I usualy put in 6 qts, use full synth, and plan on changing it often. With conventional I was changing every 2000 miles, as the lifters would tap after a hard run, so I knew when to change it, Ive never actualy had it running long enough with snyth to change it (more on that later)

I've always felt under drive pulleys are a load, what little power you gain is offset by the troubles with reduced cooling and less alternator output

HEI, Im not sure what the big craze over MSD and HEI on otherwise mostly stock engines, unless you are running enough compression or boost to blow out the spark, a spark is a spark, whether its stock or 5 feel long, once the fuel is ignited, its gone.

They're aern't really any other tweaks to speak of, there is next to nothing you can do other than opening up the airflow besides going boosted. As far as opening up airflow, headers would help, and apparently intakes are a big diffrence, but no one makes either so you're going to have to make them yourself.

As for boosting:
I was under the impression the stock pistons were hyper pistons. The first piston I melted (somewhat intentionaly) was a stocker, and just weeped around the edge then blew a hole through the ring land. The second, unintentionaly (possibly from running the tank too low and sucking air into the FP) blew a hole right through the middle. I'd never thought it before, but darth might be right that the aftermarket hypers are thinner on top.

As for forged, so far Ive pushed this thing to the edge and beyond, and I can say, having forged would not have helped anything. My issues have been from running lean and melting the pistons. Every other issue Ive had has been before boosting and in the crank area, wiped mains, spun rod, then one other where I dont know what happened, but the rod was shaped like a question mark and there was nothing left of the piston bigger than a nickel. These were 120l+ j/y engines, so no suprises.

As for intercooling, Im running a SAAB in the drivers side louver. everyone always goes on and on about how bad the IC is and how thats a horrible location. Well on a summer day my max boost temps at 6psi dont even hit 120, and usual boosting is around 90-105. Much lower than some non IC'ed setups ive seen, but probably not as low as they could be.

As for ECM's Im running the 91-93, though I now also have a 94 engine, so I might talk to darth about changing. We've had a lot of problems with tuning it, mostly idle issues, which might be on my end though Ive checked the engine over probably a dozen times.

Advice:
Probably, if you're going to boost, get an EGT and O2 guage, and watch them closely.
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Report this Post11-22-2006 03:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SourmugSend a Private Message to SourmugEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I don't think you have Blue Shift's build thread in your list. It has a large number of rebuild pictures in it and is packed full of good infomation. Here is the LINK

Now, do we know if the gearing in the G6 transmissions as seen in this Mall Thread is suitable for the 3.4 DOHC power band?

Thanks
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Report this Post11-22-2006 04:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroWannaBeClick Here to Email FieroWannaBeSend a Private Message to FieroWannaBeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have yet to see anything about timing on a 96-97 engine since the cams are different. I just purchased one of these motors and am working on a swap using a 94-95 ecm. Desktop dyno has shown a 8 degree retard is benificial to these motors.

but some more lift would help since the heads flow better with more lift.

the 96 heads also have larger exhaust ports and reportedly flow a lot better on teh exhuast side, but have indeticle intake sides?

I have yet to see a flwo number though.

------------------
PROJECT 1986 GT Stormbringer

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Report this Post11-22-2006 11:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 4-mulaGTClick Here to Email 4-mulaGTSend a Private Message to 4-mulaGTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
We should make this an absolute master list on everything 3.4DOHC

EVERYONE WHO HAS ANY INFORMATION ABOUT THIS MOTOR PLEASE POST IT HERE!

Im talkin about all dyno sheets with mods even if you cant post a sheet please tell us in detail what mod are done and how much power it has.

It seems like there is actually alot of information out there but its so scattered and held by people who know it.
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Report this Post11-23-2006 12:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SourmugSend a Private Message to SourmugEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Nope, go ahead!

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Report this Post11-23-2006 03:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Kameo KidSend a Private Message to Kameo KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Emc209i:
GETRAG
One point I would like to make here is all of these people running boost on their 3.4 DOHC engines that I am working with are doing so on stock engines. I think one guy did have hypereutectic pistons, but those turned out to be weaker vs. boost than the stockers! (very thin piston tops) If you are going to put boost on one of these engines, at least a significant amount (more than 6psi), I strongly suggest you install forged pistons, drop the compression to 9:1-8.5:1, install stronger connecting rods, as well as install some billet 4-bolt main bearing caps and use ARP fasteners everywhere. Of course doing this will ensure the maxiumum amount of durability possible at this money level and I have found that most people just don't want to spend the money or don't have that kind of money to spend. That is the only way I would do it if I was going to build this engine to last and put down some serious power.

You could use a bone stock 3.4 DOHC engine with a turbo and go to the dyno once and go to the track once and it will probably lay down some impressive numbers. If you never drove it hard again I am sure it would last a long time. What I am saying here is you aren't going to run a stock engine hard all of the time under boost and have it survive -- which is pretty much the point I am trying to make here.


-ryan



Well I sent Pavo an e-mail in answer to his question to me and thought i would just let the forum know where and what the GT is at this time.

Well Pavo, I might still have a video of the GT on the dyno around of here somewhere and as for any info on the DOHC this is it:

There is a reason there hasn't been a detailed build thread on my GT "it ain't done, or better yet, it ain't finished yet!" i'm going for the longest swap in Fiero history, which i think is now over three years now! <<< now that sucks!!! but the GT has been a big, no HUGE dissapointment ever since it came home from california from west coast. There was so many issues with the original swap that i've had to step away from the project to regroup for the RE-build, yes re-build ! I could have sold the GT after the dissapointment, I could have pulled the 3.4 DOHC turbo and went with any other combo and NOT lost any more money that it's going to take to re-build the 3.4 "the right way", I didn't sell it because i'm in too deep to give it up and would really like to see the finished DOHC Turbo at it's best. Taking the "dare to be different" to heart, atleast in the hot rod world cause this has become a very popular swap since I deceided to do this swap. What little I have driven the GT I like the "personality" that the DOHC gives the GT, the smooooth power of the turbo, the rev of the DOHC. I feel that there is no other combo for me and thus the reason to stick with and finish this build. The GT when I'm ready the GT is going to one of the best in the business http://w2wpowertrain.com/t-gallery-2.aspx the GT has been there in the past where some serious issues were revealed with the original build, it's in one of the open house photos. When it goes back the motor will become a race preped motor with all the right parts inside and out and pushing well into the 400hp range.

Well there's the short of it and more than the forum has known for a long time as to what is going on with the GT, the news hasn't been good so I just don't fill like posting it till there is something good to say.


------------------

still plays with cars..

[This message has been edited by Kameo Kid (edited 11-23-2006).]

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Report this Post11-23-2006 04:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
OK guys, I've got a 93, 30K mile, 3.4 DOHC motor that was in the process of being installed when my mechanic changed jobs and is now no longer able to finish it. The motor is sitting in my 88 Formula 5 speed but the wiring, exhaust and well just about everything is not finished. I'm looking for recommendations to get this finished. No, I don't have the tools or knowledge to finish this myself, I'm looking to take this (not quite) basket case somewhere and get it finished. Just like everyone else, dollars are a sensitive issue but..... I know no one is going to finish this for free. Recommendations anyone?

------------------
Ron
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Emc209i

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[This message has been edited by Emc209i (edited 12-05-2008).]

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Report this Post11-23-2006 05:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks, I figured he was the closest. I'll check his website out. Thanks again.

------------------
Ron
Land of the Free because of the Brave. Most gave some, some gave all.
My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Well, there is that money issue.

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Report this Post11-23-2006 08:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroWannaBeClick Here to Email FieroWannaBeSend a Private Message to FieroWannaBeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
norm at norms fiberglass says he installs lq1's....

http://www.normsfiberglass.com/Ourproducts.html

at the bottom of the posted link.
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Report this Post11-23-2006 09:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fierotrevorClick Here to Email 84fierotrevorSend a Private Message to 84fierotrevorEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Kameo Kid:


Well I sent Pavo an e-mail in answer to his question to me and thought i would just let the forum know where and what the GT is at this time.

Well Pavo, I might still have a video of the GT on the dyno around of here somewhere and as for any info on the DOHC this is it:

There is a reason there hasn't been a detailed build thread on my GT "it ain't done, or better yet, it ain't finished yet!" i'm going for the longest swap in Fiero history, which i think is now over three years now! <<< now that sucks!!! but the GT has been a big, no HUGE dissapointment ever since it came home from california from west coast. There was so many issues with the original swap that i've had to step away from the project to regroup for the RE-build, yes re-build ! I could have sold the GT after the dissapointment, I could have pulled the 3.4 DOHC turbo and went with any other combo and NOT lost any more money that it's going to take to re-build the 3.4 "the right way", I didn't sell it because i'm in too deep to give it up and would really like to see the finished DOHC Turbo at it's best. Taking the "dare to be different" to heart, atleast in the hot rod world cause this has become a very popular swap since I deceided to do this swap. What little I have driven the GT I like the "personality" that the DOHC gives the GT, the smooooth power of the turbo, the rev of the DOHC. I feel that there is no other combo for me and thus the reason to stick with and finish this build. The GT when I'm ready the GT is going to one of the best in the business http://w2wpowertrain.com/t-gallery-2.aspx the GT has been there in the past where some serious issues were revealed with the original build, it's in one of the open house photos. When it goes back the motor will become a race preped motor with all the right parts inside and out and pushing well into the 400hp range.

Well there's the short of it and more than the forum has known for a long time as to what is going on with the GT, the news hasn't been good so I just don't fill like posting it till there is something good to say.



i was at west coast fieros a few times. and saw your car there, it had the plates "it flys 2" if i remember correctly.
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Report this Post11-23-2006 10:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Kameo KidSend a Private Message to Kameo KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84fierotrevor:


i was at west coast fieros a few times. and saw your car there, it had the plates "it flys 2" if i remember correctly.


yeah, that's my plate. but it's spelled with a Z not an S

[This message has been edited by Kameo Kid (edited 11-25-2006).]

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Report this Post11-24-2006 02:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pavo_roddySend a Private Message to pavo_roddyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hi all,

Fieromadmans build thread: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20050818-2-052017.html

edit: Emc, yes you can ALWAYS add these linx to your linx post, k....

Member Kohburn's threads:

Firing up the dohc, sound file above: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20060206-1-055267.html


------------------
Me, I sell engines, the cars are for free, I need something to crate the engines in....
Enzo Ferrari....

[This message has been edited by pavo_roddy (edited 11-24-2006).]

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TTT- Updated Links
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Report this Post11-25-2006 01:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pavo_roddySend a Private Message to pavo_roddyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
HI all,

Found a thread on a 3.4 dohc vs the 3800 NA and the 3800 SC.....

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/062067.html

Matt hawkins, forum member name, with a dyno run and a sheet of such... Running 380 hp

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/059855.html

Thread on the best year dohc to have..

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/059370.html

Procarnut's thread, with a couple of vids:

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/062201.html

Small thread on 3.4 dohc gas mileage with a 5-speed:

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/059673.html

3.4 dohc homemade headers build, with pics course, hehe...

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/060505.html

------------------
Me, I sell engines, the cars are for free, I need something to crate the engines in....
Enzo Ferrari....

[This message has been edited by pavo_roddy (edited 11-25-2006).]

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Report this Post11-25-2006 02:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Emc209iClick Here to Email Emc209iSend a Private Message to Emc209iEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
lol I spent about an hour today looking for procarnut's thread! Thanks Pavo!
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Report this Post11-26-2006 03:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pavo_roddySend a Private Message to pavo_roddyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hi all,

86GT3.4DOHC's build thread:

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20050818-2-052797.html

Debate on wheter or not to run an automatic trans on a 3.4 dohc:

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20060206-2-063759.html

crazyone's build thread:

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20060206-2-053341.html

t76racer's build thread:

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20060206-2-064230.html

Debate on muffler choice for 3.4 DOHC:

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20050818-2-059896.html

Like's and dislike's about the 3.4 DOHC:

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20060811-2-069328.html

West Coast Fiero 3.4 DOHC coversion price table, not by any means an accurate one, but a great guess!

http://www.westcoastfiero.com/engine_conversions/conversion_info_3400dtc.html

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Me, I sell engines, the cars are for free, I need something to crate the engines in....
Enzo Ferrari....

[This message has been edited by pavo_roddy (edited 11-26-2006).]

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TrotFox
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Report this Post11-26-2006 05:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TrotFoxClick Here to Email TrotFoxSend a Private Message to TrotFoxEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ok, I've admired this engine for a long time now but I have a question for you guys that have driven one. How does the engine affect handling?

I can only assume that with 4 cams and lots more head up high in the engine compartment that it makes the car more top-heavy and more... swayable in the curves.

Is it noticeable?

Red 5spd Formula (Curves B We)
Trot, the winding, fox...
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Report this Post11-26-2006 05:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pavo_roddySend a Private Message to pavo_roddyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Emc209i:

lol I spent about an hour today looking for procarnut's thread! Thanks Pavo!


HI all,

NOT a prob man!

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Me, I sell engines, the cars are for free, I need something to crate the engines in....
Enzo Ferrari....

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Report this Post11-26-2006 05:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pavo_roddySend a Private Message to pavo_roddyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Emc209i:

lol I spent about an hour today looking for procarnut's thread! Thanks Pavo!



Hi all,

I GOTZ a few posts of threads that could be added to the list, now getz crackin! lol...

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Me, I sell engines, the cars are for free, I need something to crate the engines in....
Enzo Ferrari....

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Dave Gunsul
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Report this Post11-26-2006 11:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dave GunsulSend a Private Message to Dave GunsulEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by TrotFox:

Ok, I've admired this engine for a long time now but I have a question for you guys that have driven one. How does the engine affect handling?

I can only assume that with 4 cams and lots more head up high in the engine compartment that it makes the car more top-heavy and more... swayable in the curves.

Is it noticeable?

Red 5spd Formula (Curves B We)
Trot, the winding, fox...


No it's not. Car handles just as well as before and id even say better since it now has more power to come out of the corner with than before. I have driven two now for many miles, one an 87 and the other an 88, and never noticed any ill effects fro handling.

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" There was a lot of little kids there. I watched them flying, doing jumps, and having races. And I thought that all those little kids are going to grow up someday. And all those little kids are going to do the things we do. But for now, sledding is enough. I think it would be great if sledding were always enough, but it isn't."
--the perks of being a wallflower by stephen chbosky

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Report this Post11-26-2006 05:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Emc209iClick Here to Email Emc209iSend a Private Message to Emc209iEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
.

[This message has been edited by Emc209i (edited 12-05-2008).]

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Report this Post11-26-2006 06:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pavo_roddySend a Private Message to pavo_roddyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Emc209i:


hahaha alright alright


*Updated. Wow what a list it is too! High Five!



Hi all,

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Anyone care to guess what the longest post in a thread is? I don't know the answer myself, but I bet Emc will find out.... That's if Cliff doesn't put a stop to it first...

Great Job!! OH!! I can now help with the linking now as I found the code format to learn how to edit a url to fit any discription I need......

OHH!! SORRY Olaf, I've been more concentrated on finding topics to suit this thread that I missed your post..... I'll put something up when I find one k!

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Me, I sell engines, the cars are for free, I need something to crate the engines in....
Enzo Ferrari....

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.

[This message has been edited by Emc209i (edited 12-05-2008).]

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Report this Post11-26-2006 06:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pavo_roddySend a Private Message to pavo_roddyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hi all,

Debate on why the dohc may fit the fiero's personality better than a pushord:

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20060206-1-055265.html

Question on Just how quick and fast a 3.4 dohc fiero:

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20040710-1-038909.html

Thread on supercharging the dohc:

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20050818-2-061867.html

A question proposing, "The best computer for a 3.4 dohc turbo?"

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20040710-2-048257.html

Question proposing, "91-93 and 96-97 dohc differences:


http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20050818-2-062090.html
------------------
Me, I sell engines, the cars are for free, I need something to crate the engines in....
Enzo Ferrari....

[This message has been edited by pavo_roddy (edited 11-26-2006).]

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.

[This message has been edited by Emc209i (edited 12-05-2008).]

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Report this Post11-26-2006 06:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SourmugSend a Private Message to SourmugEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Who says that a long post is a bad thing? If all the relevant links and threads are in a single post at the begining of the thread then that is in my opinion a better thing than having to dig though a thread to find them.
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Report this Post11-26-2006 06:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pavo_roddySend a Private Message to pavo_roddyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hi all,

Yep sourmug, those are my thoughts too... Only it never hurts to ask ya know.... So I pmed Cliff...

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Me, I sell engines, the cars are for free, I need something to crate the engines in....
Enzo Ferrari....

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