quote Originally posted by Khw: Conservatorium: an institution or school for instruction in music What does that have to do with this thread?

Perhaps the Pied Piper attended this conservatorium?

I agree you are both my friends and you are both hurting your friend.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I agree you are both my friends and you are both hurting your friend.

But, it's the best day you've ever had!

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: You & I have debated this many times. You believe truth is solid like a rock. I believe it is more like water. A chance for that to prove itself out in the here & now with all these different particapants providing the variables right infront of my eyes makes it a great moment in my life. Ofcoarse, I don't get out much.......

Unfortunately, I don't think anything will really be "proven out". There will be some pontification, some posturing, and maybe some name-calling. Eventually, one side will decide they've had enough, and find something else to do, at which point the other side will claim a moral victory.

In other words, it'll be kinda like politics.

I'd also like to add that I'm an objectivist (which you probably already know). But I'm not going to beat people over the head with my beliefs. So please... carry on.

Edit to add -- Actually one thing WILL be proven out. But it's the same old thing that gets proven in almost every political thread on this forum.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 04-28-2011).]

quote Originally posted by maryjane: But, it's the best day you've ever had!

For every smile there is a tear.

Wow. I guess the people calling this a fake because it's layered and because things look pixelated have never, ever used scanning software. This is exactly what I would expect from a scanned document converted to a readable PDF. I don't see anything out of the ordinary.

This doesn't mean the original couldn't be fake, but calling it a fake because the PDF scanning software created several layers out of a single bitmap is, well, stupid.

I do agree someone seriously messed up on this, because this is only going to add to the controversy. And no matter what they do now (release the original scanned bitmap) people will say it's "damage control".

[PERSONAL OPINION]
But hey, I didn't actually expect someone from the Obama administration to actually use his brains. (insert your choice of smileys here so you won't send me nasty emails and private messages telling me how it has become impossible for you to stay on the forum because you can no longer participate on a forum of which the moderator has such different ideas and opinions than you have and in order to keep your integrity and self-esteem, you must leave and never return to the dark side of the internet once called "PFF")
[/PERSONAL OPINION]

This is not an original, there are several components.
The center part is scanned from a document then it was pasted on the larger document.
Then the signature was put on.

Perhaps it would look better it they hadn't outsourced it to China

It would certainly make it more credible if it was a paper copy with a state seal.

quote Originally posted by newf: I'll make a deal with all those calling me a troll. Please prove it by the definition of what a "troll" is and I will never post in OT again. That should be hard for the Conservatorium to resist.

quote In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[3]

I would say some of what you have said would qualify for parts of the definition. However, even if it was 100% i personally would never say stop posting. If you have read other posts of mine i thin everyone has a right to say what they want. If i don't like something that is said, i can either ignore them or yell back. But i would never suggest they be squelched.

And just so i'm not a hypocrite, I also don't hand out negative points due to *any* topic or response, unless its an unprovoked personal attack.

wow.... I just opened this in Illustrator and there are all the layers.... Something is odd. My scan (I did color, b/w, grayscale with OCR) and I only get one full layer with the image, the other layers are boxes, but they are blank... which is similar to Obama's copy, but why does his have extra layers with content? This is where an expert in software and document forensics could tell us more. Based on what I have seen, there is something odd about Obama's copy compared to my scan.

The Obama's document looks more real when you turn off the green layer... it actually looks like a scanned document, but some of the dates are not in that layer.

Oh, my documents had anti-aliased text, and if Obama's was scanned from paper, as stated, then it shouldn't have bit-mapped text either... even with OCR turned on, as OCR doesn't recognize check boxes or triangles... those should be anti-aliased. Now, if the document was scanned as B/W text, then yes, the letters would not be anti-aliased, but the document should be consistent, and not have anti-aliased mixed with non-anti-aliased.

One way to solve this. Take Polaroid photos of the page in the book. Allow 10 average citizens (picked at random) to review the original document and 3 document experts. Don't release scanned copies, as we all know they can be faked. Review the number sequence and have anyone who has seen Obama at birth to provide sworn statements of this.

I've got to set this up first....

Last night, I'm sitting in the VIP lounge at McCarren Airport in Vegas waiting for my flight to Indy. There's an couple across from me in (I'm guessing) their mid 70's with someone I assume was their college-aged grandson beside them surfing the net on his I-Pad. I should probably mention they're speaking a mix of German and English. The kid says something to the grandfather in which the words "Obama" and "birth certificate" are clear and he responds rather gruffly. For some reason, the kid asks me, "Are you American?" to which I obviously reply "yes." We were discussing the release of the birth certificate (which I didn't know about until he told me) when his grandfather said something to the kid to ask me in broken English...."Why are Americans so 'unwissend' about this?"

I asked him what "unwissend" meant.

He said "ignorant."

The question was yet another example of what I've been saying about this whole affair from the beginning. The rest of the world thinks we're nuts. I'm fully aware that Americans are so zenophobic as a rule that they could care less what the world thinks of us anyway.....which is another issue for discussion. I logged onto PFF and let him read the posts to give him a good idea of what the "average American" thought about the subject. A hardy laugh was had by all, I'm afraid.

I for one certainly don't think this will put an end to this matter or any other in the future. The subliminal messaging has been in play since Obama's inauguration and will continue until he leaves office. None of this has a bit to do with his policies, where he was born, where he went to school, etc... The bulk of the civilized world (read that as "somewhere other than here") recognizes the psychology behind this even if some in the US will never admit it.....especially older Germans, it appears. Draw your own conclusions from that.

The goalposts will continue to move, no matter what, until we get a Romney or a Trump or a Clinton or a Biden in the White House......ANYTHING but an Obama.

My driver's here....Talk to you guys later.

I am sure the rest of the world laughs at us, but the reason is because weak leaders like Obama. We need a strong President. As for challenging our President, we can do that in the US, we have that right, unlike other countries and I believe that has made us a stable and successful country (for the most part).

Im a little slow catching up in this thread, been busy.

Anyway, some of the talk shows are calling Trump an idiot because hes taking credit for making Obama show it. Well, everyones tried for 3 years and got stonewalled. Trump makes a big deal out of it and within 2 weeks, it shows up. So YES I DO GIVE HIM ALL THE CREDIT. Im sure Obama got a wake up call when Trump might run against him. Of course he has to put his own spin on it that this issue is a distraction and needed to be put away....like it was his own doing. Ill give the benefit of the doubt right now that it is authentic....BUT....why didnt he show it 3 years ago when the issue came up. Instead he chose to hide it for 3 years and spending 2 million dollars to hide it. This still makes the issue suspect to some degree. With his money and position, it wouldnt be that hard to come up with a completely authentic looking, and backed up fake. Id like to hear a plausible explanation why he hid it all this time. Everyone in the country should trust the president, but I seriously have a real problem trusting him with anything. Hes been caught in more lies than Nixon. Ill still vote for Trump if he does run, at least at this point. At least he gets things done.

BTW, now the media is trying to make this a race issue....

http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPI...rs/index.html?hpt=C2

Why is everything about race when you have a "non-white" person? The question is at hand if the President was actually born in the US.... simple question and has nothing to do with the color of his skin. Who is the racist here?

Liberal media at it again.

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: Wow. I guess the people calling this a fake because it's layered and because things look pixelated have never, ever used scanning software. This is exactly what I would expect from a scanned document converted to a readable PDF. I don't see anything out of the ordinary.

Alas, if the document had been flattened before release, someone right here, right now would be proclaiming that it was false, because it had been substantially altered.

quote Originally posted by Doni Hagan: The subliminal messaging has been in play since Obama's inauguration and will continue until he leaves office.

The message is hardly subliminal. It is certainly clear to me: "He is not one of us."

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 04-28-2011).]

This is a huge issue and the rest of the world and go jump in a lake if they think it isn't. I can't think of any country that allows a foreigner to be head of their executive branch?

That being said, I think that President Obama is a citizen and I thought so before he released this document. This issue needs to be dropped unless someone can come up with somthing bigger than PDF layers. Seriously. Some low level government office tech in Hawaii scanned the certificate into a PDF and it was emailed to DC. This is not some big conspiracy.

Why in the world would Democrats let someone who wasn't a citizen into office? If he isn't a citizen, he isn't the only one who knows. Why would they expend so many resources getting him into office, if he could be kicked out for being "found out"? That would be a waste of time and money for them, not to mention the worst publicity imaginable.

They wouldn't. He's a citizen. I don't really understand how anybody could believe otherwise. Why don't we just focus on the issues, get him out of office in a year and a half, and get our country back to where it needs to be? Obama isn't some terrorist up there in office. He's just an American Democrat. We need to just accept that and move on.

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: The message is hardly subliminal. It is certainly clear to me: "He is not one of us."

this is the case with EVERY president who is a Democrat. NOT ONE Democrat president has been officially acknowledged by these azzhats.

so - nothing actually new here.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: This is a huge issue and the rest of the world and go jump in a lake if they think it isn't. I can't think of any country that allows a foreigner to be head of their executive branch? That being said, I think that President Obama is a citizen and I thought so before he released this document. This issue needs to be dropped unless someone can come up with somthing bigger than PDF layers. Seriously. Some low level government office tech in Hawaii scanned the certificate into a PDF and it was emailed to DC. This is not some big conspiracy.

I agree here 100%... some people REALLY need to get over it AND themselves. There's a way to get rid of Obama, its called voting. Thats how he got in. Anything else about natural birth and citizenship is just sour grapes and wasting time from now on, the proof has been provided for everyone except those that wear tinfoil hats anyways. Attack him for economics or health care, that's legitimate.

You know...My birth certificate looks a lot like the FIRST on he provided, that has never been "not enough" for any higher learning institution or prospective employer to accept. In fact, if I ever ran for president (and who the hell would want to?) that would be the only BC I could provide, too. This never had anything to do with facts and everything to do with those who do not like the current sitting president trying ANYTHING to get him out of office early.

[This message has been edited by tbone42 (edited 04-28-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: this is the case with EVERY president who is a Democrat. NOT ONE Democrat president has been officially acknowledged by these azzhats.

It's also the same case with every President who is a Republican. The Democrat fanboys were just as rude and condescending toward President Bush.

Like I said above -- in every political thread, the same old truth comes out. Politics is divisive. And people can't see past the party lines.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 04-28-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: this is the case with EVERY president who is a Democrat. NOT ONE Democrat president has been officially acknowledged by these azzhats. so - nothing actually new here.

Which azzhats might you be referring to?

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: It's also the same case with every President who is a Republican. The Democrat fanboys were just as rude and condescending toward President Bush. Like I said above -- in every political thread, the same old truth comes out. Politics is divisive. And people can't see past the party lines.

I agree there are always going to be some noise makers. But, nothing compares to the whining heard when a democrat is president.

being niether a democrat nor a republican, it is easier to see this poop from the outside. I voted for Bush the first time.

and, it is just extra thick this time because the man is black. it really is.

BTW, Obama's taped their Oprah appearance for May 2nd air date. I wonder how he has time to sit down with Oprah.... oh wait, he is looking for a bump in his ratings. Sigh... There is talk about his birth certificate. Michelle even stated that "he was born here".... or did she really say "he was born, hear?"

Anyway, so who is going to watch Oprah? I wonder if the teleprompter will be there... or will we HEAR "... ah... hum... well... ah... "

Here are two copies of Hawaii birth certificates from several days later:

http://the.honoluluadvertis...l/28/M1139416728.GIF

quote Originally posted by Doni Hagan: I've got to set this up first.... Last night, I'm sitting in the VIP lounge at McCarren Airport in Vegas waiting for my flight to Indy. There's an couple across from me in (I'm guessing) their mid 70's with someone I assume was their college-aged grandson beside them surfing the net on his I-Pad. I should probably mention they're speaking a mix of German and English. The kid says something to the grandfather in which the words "Obama" and "birth certificate" are clear and he responds rather gruffly. For some reason, the kid asks me, "Are you American?" to which I obviously reply "yes." We were discussing the release of the birth certificate (which I didn't know about until he told me) when his grandfather said something to the kid to ask me in broken English...."Why are Americans so 'unwissend' about this?" I asked him what "unwissend" meant. He said "ignorant." The question was yet another example of what I've been saying about this whole affair from the beginning. The rest of the world thinks we're nuts. I'm fully aware that Americans are so zenophobic as a rule that they could care less what the world thinks of us anyway.....which is another issue for discussion. I logged onto PFF and let him read the posts to give him a good idea of what the "average American" thought about the subject. A hardy laugh was had by all, I'm afraid. I for one certainly don't think this will put an end to this matter or any other in the future. The subliminal messaging has been in play since Obama's inauguration and will continue until he leaves office. None of this has a bit to do with his policies, where he was born, where he went to school, etc... The bulk of the civilized world (read that as "somewhere other than here") recognizes the psychology behind this even if some in the US will never admit it.....especially older Germans, it appears. Draw your own conclusions from that. The goalposts will continue to move, no matter what, until we get a Romney or a Trump or a Clinton or a Biden in the White House......ANYTHING but an Obama. My driver's here....Talk to you guys later.

Doni,

I don't like Obama, and it has nothing to do with his race. It's his policies. I believe there are many who hate his politics so much they are rabid about this stupid issue.
But the thought comes to mind. If this were the 80's and he were white man who spent time in the Soviet Union as a child in a socialist school he would get the same kind of reaction from the "right" wouldn't he?

Sure there are white people who hate Obama because he's black, but how many ? Is it a larger proportion than that of blacks who love Obama just because he's black? Or blacks who hate any whites?

How many "right wing nuts" would have voted for Colin Powell back in 2000 when it was talked about so much? I would have and I thought he would have won in a landslide if he had run. Were starting to see black conservatives make headway in politics. Who attacks them on race?

You showing them a thread about the issue is hardly representative of average Americans. It likely drew all the birthers to the thread, while most level headed folks would ignore it.
The rest of the world will always find a reason to deride us. If it's not the birther issue, it would be how we are overweight, or wasteful. We are the big dog and everyone likes to take the big dog down a peg.
Many look at somethings which some Germans do, and attribute it to the whole society. Some issues around WWII for example.

Ironically, racist, ignorant, fat, SUV-driving, American is a stereotype that plays real well around the globe. I wish Americans, when in your situation, would stick up for our country a little more, rather than being so eager to have someone agree with them or on their "side". If it were me in your shoes, I would say that we don't have an exclusive contract for all the crazies of the world, all of our countries have these kinds of situations.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: I agree there are always going to be some noise makers. But, nothing compares to the whining heard when a democrat is president. being niether a democrat nor a republican, it is easier to see this poop from the outside. I voted for Bush the first time. and, it is just extra thick this time because the man is black. it really is.

HUH? I have never heard so much hate as when Bush was president. You had the media going wild with Bush hate. As for Obama, race has nothing to do with this. They guy pops up out of nowhere, with a secretive history related to how he got into politics, and his education. Then he runs on a campaign of stupidity, yet gets elected and then does nothing except raise the country's debt to record levels. The guy is a disaster and should be held accountable for the troubles he is causing currently and for future issues. Being president of the US is more than talking about "hope and change"... the person needs to read the constitution and understand it, then live by it. BTW, what about his new war in Libya? Anyone going to hold his feet to the fire? more blood for oil? Oh wait, we can't say that or we will be labeled as racist... sigh... why is it so hard to see the double standard that is liberalism?

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: Wow. I guess the people calling this a fake because it's layered and because things look pixelated have never, ever used scanning software.

To put it bluntly, it doesn't matter if the document is genuine or not. It does not contain a State seal of approval. Therefore, it is not a legal document. In other words, it cannot be used to prove citizenship.

But like I mentioned earlier, I don't really care about this birth certificate stuff. It's just a circus sideshow. The REAL problem is that we voted in a guy who promised the moon, but delivered a fake moon rock. Who is really to blame for that: him for fooling the American public, or the American public for being so gullible?

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: HUH? I have never heard so much hate as when Bush was president. You had the media going wild with Bush hate. As for Obama, race has nothing to do with this. They guy pops up out of nowhere, with a secretive history related to how he got into politics, and his education. Then he runs on a campaign of stupidity, yet gets elected and then does nothing except raise the country's debt to record levels. The guy is a disaster and should be held accountable for the troubles he is causing currently and for future issues. Being president of the US is more than talking about "hope and change"... the person needs to read the constitution and understand it, then live by it. BTW, what about his new war in Libya? Anyone going to hold his feet to the fire? more blood for oil? Oh wait, we can't say that or we will be labeled as racist... sigh... why is it so hard to see the double standard that is liberalism?

yes, wars do that. Iraq was a mistake. all there is to it.

and yeah, what about Libya?

quote Originally posted by mike-ohio: Here are two copies of Hawaii birth certificates from several days later: http://the.honoluluadvertis...l/28/M1139416728.GIF

If they would have released it in this form, with an actual seal, only the sequence of the numbers would have been an issue.

The rest of the world thought we were nuts in 1775, and have ever since (except maybe during the 2 World Wars (and probably even then but were glad we were)

You guys are completely missing the point. It was never really about getting Obama out of office early--that's an extremely difficult thing to do, especially with a congressional makeup such as we have had and still do have. Anyone who truly thought a sitting President could be ejected from office thru impeachment or somehow thru, SCOTUS lives in a bit of a fantasy land, but anytime an official wins an office, or is percieved to be the ftont runner in an upcoming election, the opposition begins making it's plans to overcome this advantage at AND long before re-election time. It may take the current form, it may materialize like the charges that Bush shirked his military duty, that Kerry faked his Vietnam service, that Aaron Burr was a womanizer and "dispicable", but the intent is always the same. Just cast enough doubts (based on fact or not) to cost the person votes. Why does it work? Because a vast # of voters don't vote issues--they vote personalities, parties and emotionally--thus their votes are easy to sway.It's been this way since the dawning of the Nation. Nothing really new here, and if there were a white person in office (or running for office) with a bit of cloudiness regarding their nationality, we'd likely have seen the same thing happen.
Remember--'Are you now--or have you ever been.,..a member of..."

Some of the people here in O/T are amazingly stupid. Come on, 5-pages regarding Pres. Obama's birth certificate.

quote Originally posted by Nurb432: I would say some of what you have said would qualify for parts of the definition.

Please elaborate.

quote Originally posted by 8Ball: I find it hilarious that this happened at all in the first place. Name one single time when you have had to show the long form of your birth certificate.... I am betting MOST of you have never even SEEN the long form of your birth certificate.

Actually I have mine at home with my footie prints on it and such (also my 'short' one as well) - but I guess the rules are different here in Canada

quote Originally posted by madcurl: Some of the people here in O/T are amazingly stupid. Come on, 5-pages regarding Pres. Obama's birth certificate.

Shall we talk about his success in fixing the economy, or bringing all the troops home, or his actions for lowering fuel prices, or maybe we can talk about his actions in reducing the debt and lowering the taxes on middle class? Feel free to start a new topic with his success stories....

quote Originally posted by newf: Please elaborate.

I think if Newf is a troll then I am as well. I think we kinda do the same thing just from different sides of the spectrum. You shouldn't be called a troll if you challenge people's logic or beliefs. It's healthy debate.

quote Originally posted by Scottzilla79: Doni, I don't like Obama, and it has nothing to do with his race. It's his policies. I believe there are many who hate his politics so much they are rabid about this stupid issue. But the thought comes to mind. If this were the 80's and he were white man who spent time in the Soviet Union as a child in a socialist school he would get the same kind of reaction from the "right" wouldn't he? Sure there are white people who hate Obama because he's black, but how many ? Is it a larger proportion than that of blacks who love Obama just because he's black? Or blacks who hate any whites? How many "right wing nuts" would have voted for Colin Powell back in 2000 when it was talked about so much? I would have and I thought he would have won in a landslide if he had run. Were starting to see black conservatives make headway in politics. Who attacks them on race? You showing them a thread about the issue is hardly representative of average Americans. It likely drew all the birthers to the thread, while most level headed folks would ignore it. The rest of the world will always find a reason to deride us. If it's not the birther issue, it would be how we are overweight, or wasteful. We are the big dog and everyone likes to take the big dog down a peg. Many look at somethings which some Germans do, and attribute it to the whole society. Some issues around WWII for example. Ironically, racist, ignorant, fat, SUV-driving, American is a stereotype that plays real well around the globe. I wish Americans, when in your situation, would stick up for our country a little more, rather than being so eager to have someone agree with them or on their "side". If it were me in your shoes, I would say that we don't have an exclusive contract for all the crazies of the world, all of our countries have these kinds of situations.

I would say that representing PFF as a good "cross section" of the US populace is a pretty reliable example, actually. The members here cover the gamut politically, ethnically, religiously, ideologically, even in terms of sexuality. Also, I did in fact mount a rather fervent defense of the US in my discussion with the grandfather, reminding him specifically that the same society which is demonstrably "unwissend" enough to keep this whole birther BS alive is also the same society that was enlightened enough to finally elect a non-white to the presidency....something a European nation has yet to do. As far as the "racist, ignorant, fat, SUV-driving, American" stereotype is concerned, thank God that the description doesn't represent the majority of Americans anymore than, say, the "terrorist" moniker fits all Muslims. However, it could be argued that it certainly applies to some in both instances.

At any rate, back to the subject at hand, it's the backlash or reaction to that "majority decision" (like it or not, elections DO have consequences) that is at issue here. If I for one minute believed that the "average American" en masse thought like some of the POVs on Obama's citizenship expressed not only here but in various pockets of our society at large, I would gladly join those Europeans for a flight back to Hamburg. Actually, I found the decade or so that I lived in Europe rather refreshing in some instances. It was occasionally comforting to be somewhere where more often than not I was hated SOLELY because I was an American.

At least, everyone's cards were clearly displayed on the table.

[This message has been edited by Doni Hagan (edited 04-28-2011).]

quote Originally posted by maryjane: One of the 3 I have looks like that, one is larger, on white background/black text with raised official State seal and actual signature, and another on yet a larger sheet, with feetprints etc. I also have several "Certified to be a true copy" birthcertificate copies. None, were difficult to obtain--and I am not the leader of the free world.

Nor do you have a billion dollars and the FBI at you disposal!

[This message has been edited by partfiero (edited 04-28-2011).]

Glad you stood up for us.
I've wanted to go to Europe, especially the UK but I know I wouldn't be able to keep my mouth shut if the situation arose and it would ruin the experience. (Doesn't matter since I can't afford it LOL)
Hatred is hatred, I don't care what the reasoning is.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: The rest of the world thought we were nuts in 1775, and have ever since (except maybe during the 2 World Wars (and probably even then but were glad we were) You guys are completely missing the point. It was never really about getting Obama out of office early--that's an extremely difficult thing to do, especially with a congressional makeup such as we have had and still do have. Anyone who truly thought a sitting President could be ejected from office thru impeachment or somehow thru, SCOTUS lives in a bit of a fantasy land, but anytime an official wins an office, or is percieved to be the ftont runner in an upcoming election, the opposition begins making it's plans to overcome this advantage at AND long before re-election time. It may take the current form, it may materialize like the charges that Bush shirked his military duty, that Kerry faked his Vietnam service, that Aaron Burr was a womanizer and "dispicable", but the intent is always the same. Just cast enough doubts (based on fact or not) to cost the person votes. Why does it work? Because a vast # of voters don't vote issues--they vote personalities, parties and emotionally--thus their votes are easy to sway.It's been this way since the dawning of the Nation. Nothing really new here, and if there were a white person in office (or running for office) with a bit of cloudiness regarding their nationality, we'd likely have seen the same thing happen. Remember--'Are you now--or have you ever been.,..a member of..."

And my point isn't to stop the Birther issue because it's wrong...

It's because it makes us look like idiots.

Republicans will usually vote Republican. Democrats will usually vote Democrat. The vote really lies in the hands of Centrists, who maybe are more libertarian. Maybe they like the social aspects of the left, but monetary values of the Right. Or, vice versa. The point is, each side should be appealing to them... and I can tell you right now that the birth issue does NOT appeal to people in the center. They think it's ridiculous that anyone would believe he wasn't born in America. Regardless of if that is the Birthers' goal, it is the mark that is made.

So this isn't getting votes--at least I don't see this coming to that. I see this losing a LOT of votes, and nothing substantially positive will ever come out of it. So I would love for it all to just come to a close.. impress the Centrists by other means and get them on our side. That's how we win.