The paint is really starting to get bad on my Fiero so I decided it was time to paint it. The horizontal panels are peeling really bad but the vertical panels still have a good surface to paint over. Here's some pictures of how the car looks now.






I stocked up on the following goodies.




The body is solid except the rear bumper has some cracks in the paint and an actual crack in the fascia underneath just behind the right tailpipe shield. The previous owner had been backed into from the right rear side and the paint was cracked badly in that area.




Since I'm going to be painting the car anyway, I might as well fix the problem. I removed the bumper to make the repair.



It came off pretty easily. Only took about 30 minutes for taillights and bumper removal.

The absorber material was slouching off the metal support from the fasteners working loose. Also the right pad that sits under the absorber had completely fallen off. I'm referring to one of the two solid plastic pads that are attached by a nut and bolt. I found the right plastic pad just sitting there against the bumper when I pulled it off along with the nut but no bolt.



I found a bolt and reattached the plastic pad. I bought metal nuts and bolts to replace the fasteners that would just end up allowing the absorber material to slouch over time. I reattached the absorber using four of the nuts and bolts. (I also got some extras for the front fascia.)

Next I turned my attention to the rear bumper cover. This is the area that was warped and cracked. The metal shield was bent but even after removing the shield the bumper still was warped. You can see the bumper crack on the right side of the gap behind the metal shield.



I discovered that in the side of the bumper where all the paint is cracked, there was a tear in the bumper as well.



I bought some Bondo Flexible Bumper Repair Kit and got to work. That's when I noticed there was also a crack along the dividing edge that goes all the way around the bumper. This one was pretty big. I had to buy a second repair kit. $14 just to buy that stuff. I had seen a tip in a few other posts about using fiberglass mat on the back so I did that.



You can see the three areas I repaired inside. This took a complete kit just for the inside. I had to use a clamp to keep the bumper from twisting from the warpage while the bottom crack was setting. This stuff is really good. By the time the outside had dried, the bumper was very strong I didn't even need to repair the outside to get it to hold.

Next I grinded out a V-shaped groove on the outside over the three cracks





Then I filled in the grooves with more of the magic gel.





Now that the cracks were filled in, I took a heat gun and tried to get the bumper unwarped. After it got warm, it was easy to press it flat with my hands.




I got the bumper and taillights put back together.



That's it for the body repairs. I do have a small hairline crack in the left front fender which I will reinforce too with the repair gel. Right now, I'm currently waiting for sanding supplies to arrive that I ordered last week. then I can start sanding off the damaged paint on the car and get it ready to paint.

[This message has been edited by reinhart (edited 09-25-2010).]

I also wanted to give a shout out to rogergarrison who has been of the greatest help in giving me advice on what painting supplies to buy and how to approach prepping the car! Thanks Roger.

Oh man......please, please, please tell me this is not my old GT!

It can't be, but mine had a crack in the rear fascia in the same area. What's the VIN??


Aside from that.....good luck in painting. With that much clear coat damage make sure you prep it very well. I bought a black GT from SoCal about 10 years ago that was repainted and I could still see the burnt clearcoat under the new (and cheaply done) paint.

Hey Mike, yes it is. You and I emailed back and forth on here when I bought it. The clearcoat started peeling less than two years after I got it.

I hope the folks you're getting advice from are not telling you to use laquer primer. You may not care since you're using really cheap paint anyway, but a coat of PPG epoxy primer will help with sealing & adhesion. I'm working on a Dart that had a cheap paintjob on it (had to spot in around the windshield where it was peeling 'cause they didn't sand it well), & when I pulled tape off of the roof it pulled paint up with it. And I had not even pressed down hard on the tape. Yep you guessed it - laquer primer, under base/clear urethane. Not made to be used together...
HTH,
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

I couldn't fix the brakes... so I made the horn louder!

Give it a rest dude. I never have had a car with paint that peeled off my primer.....EXCEPT THE FEW TIMES I TOOK IN A JOB WITH CATALYZED PRIMER. All 3 of my personal cars have laquer primer and base/clear paint. This is no hitech job here. The guys even going to put the primer on the few spots with a brush. My Coronet got stripped to metal and laquer primer. Its 5 years old and perfect still, and I drive it year round and it sets outside except when I pull it in the garage to sweep or polish on the way to a car show.

I agree with Roger. The place for a catalyst paint is in a professional paint booth with the filter, the vent and the bake lights.

For the hobby painter, traditional lacquer is the only way to go. You don't need anything but a standard respirator mask, and it cleans up easily. Moreover, if you have a problem, it can be sanded out and retouched much easier. In addition, if you come back a year later, you can re-coat with minimal prep. The new lacquer with bond with the old lacquer without sanding.

I repainted parts of my car using the lacquer based primer, and no problems at all. With both urethane and lacquer color coats. In fact, I've successfully used lacquer as clear coat over urethane.

It is all fine and good for a guy with a professional shop and all the professional gear to promote catalyst paint, but for the hobbyist is just isn't a good idea and totally unnecessary. Of course if you are restoring old metal like a frame, there is good cause to want epoxy primer. But, other than that, no need at all for the added expense and headache.

Arn

Tell all of that to the car owner who's now having to pay me to repair the paint (Dupont base/clear) 'cause it didn't stick to the laquer primer.
I don't have a "professional" shop, but I manage to turn out show quality work that will last for decades & I can tape to my paintjobs without the paint peeling off.

All of what Arn says is pretty much true. I tape off my cars all the time to touch up damage like chips and door dings, not to mention adding modifications. I use 3M masking tape (usually 2") and my paint dont come off. Your job is peeling either because the guy painted it before the primer was completely dry, it was contaminated, or as I see most of the time....they guy simply didnt sand it before he painted. I see Maaco do that all the time. They use the term primer and sealer for the same thing. You have to sand primer to paint over it. ALso could be because the guy, even if using overpriced Dupont, didnt use the right reducers. I too put laquer clear over basecoat all the time with no problem. I had a guy like your customer too and documented here it a year or so ago. Guy brought me his 84 Corvette for a repaint. He did the body work and had it primered with 2K. I sanded, masked and shot the car R&M base/clear that I usually do. I let the car set out in the sun for a weekend and color sanded and buffed it that Monday. By Tues sitting out in the sun ALL the 2k primered spots bubbled up. I had to strip the car back down to original paint, redo the body work, reprime it and repaint and buff it again. By my reputation, I did all that free of charge...labor and material because I stand up for what I do. HeI didnt have to do like your customer did and pay me to fix someones screw up. Ya, I lost my butt on that job. But the customer will always come back to me and refer others to me. Now I wont accept a car that anyone else has primered at all. I can be talked into painting it, but you own it....I wont fix it again. All my work is and always has been guaranteed as long as you keep it except pre-existing body rustout as long as you dont cause the problem (like spilling brake fluid on a fender).

Ill just call us even and leave it at that. I say you cant get perfect blends, and you can say I cant use laquer primer.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 09-27-2010).]

I am going to be using catalyzed primer. I included a picture of all the paint materials earlier. The left two are for the two-part primer. I checked on the epoxy at the paint store but it was more than the clear and base combined for a quart of it. It was like $140 a quart, so got the high-build catalyzed which was like $40. I hopefully will only need the primer on the rear fascia where I repaired it. If the paint doesn't adhere then I may have to reshoot that panel, but the rest of the car hopefully won't need primer just sand through the old clearcoat and paint.

I bought a 10 foot antenna cable and I'm going to try to fasten to the sunroof ring and see what the reception is like. I don't have a defogger Roger. If the reception is good then I'll end up filling in the fender antenna hole.

quote Originally posted by reinhart: I am going to be using catalyzed primer. I included a picture of all the paint materials earlier. The left two are for the two-part primer. I checked on the epoxy at the paint store but it was more than the clear and base combined for a quart of it. It was like $140 a quart, so got the high-build catalyzed which was like $40. I hopefully will only need the primer on the rear fascia where I repaired it. If the paint doesn't adhere then I may have to reshoot that panel, but the rest of the car hopefully won't need primer just sand through the old clearcoat and paint.

That's not good either. The hi-build will not flex very much, & will probably crack out (especially if flexed at all). I just hate to see someone spend all the time it takes to prep a car for paint, & then not have it last. IMO you'll be happier if you seal the entire car with PPG epoxy (DP primer). It flexes well, & makes things stick twice as well as anything else on the market. Laquer primer works for others, but that doesn't mean it's the best thing to use. But as I said, with the super-cheap paint you've chosen you may not care how long it lasts or what the end result looks like. Good luck with it either way you go.
EDIT: & Roger you can't say a product is no good because you had trouble with it once 'cause the owner didn't prep properly before using it.
And BTW also, you can shoot over PPG epoxy within 30 minutes without sanding it & it will STILL have better adhesion than other primers.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

[This message has been edited by Tha Driver (edited 09-27-2010).]

"I did all the body work, you just have to paint it"

Ive heard that one before hahaha Ive learned my lesson.

Paul (tha driver), you tell me not to use high-build primer on the bumpers but then in your comprehensive thread you often refer to:

http://gafieroclub.org/bbs/index.php?topic=469.0

you write:

"After that, sand the epoxy with 180 wet before shooting the high-build. You can shoot the high-build over the entire panel, if it's wavy & needs blocking to flatten it out. But DON'T build up the high-build very thick on any flexible parts."

So there you just say its ok, just not to overuse it on the bumpers.

Primer has 2 uses and those 2 only. On a metal car, its to make the paint bond to the surface....automotive paint wont stick long to bare metal. The other is to give you an easily sanded material to fill/ sand out minor imperfections after sanding or doing body work. Thats why its called primer surfacer in the first place. If your not going to sand the primer, theres no point in putting it on a non metal car in the first place. If you want to seal the surface or give you a neutral color to paint on you use Sealer that costs 1/2-1/4 the price of your 2 part primers and is made for that purpose. How primer flexes is only relative to how thick you put it on. I can put a coat of any primer on a piece of paper and wad it up. Primer is never intended to make the paint stick any better on anything other than bare metal. Paint will stick just fine over a properly sanded old paint job...primer will not increase the adhesion. Actually, the ONLY primer thats recommended for flexible parts is waterbourne/latex because its as flexible as a piece of rubber. However, people do use all kinds of primer. In the day when everyone used flex agent in the paint for the bumpers, paint manufacturers instructions were to NEVER use ANY kind of primer under it. Some still tell you to spray a coat of adhesion promoter, which is about as worthless as a $2 whore. The promoter is really meant to spray on a vinyl surface to make paint stick....like a door panel, headliner, conv top, etc. Someone at the paint stores came up with the idea that 'hey we can sell more of this if we just say flexible parts on the label ' instead of interior parts. Most new bumpers I get now are all preprimed in waterbourne. The paint instructions decal is stuck right on the part to LIGHTLY SCUFF that being careful not to go thru it, NOT to apply any other kind of primer, and paint.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 09-28-2010).]

I think of 2k with hardener as "sprayable plastic".

Rogers information has always been consistent from what Ive read. If I wanted paint advice I would probably follow his posts.

Yes, everything has a place Chris. catalyzed primer is EXCELLENT for putting on a rusty old metal car....or if you intend to leave it in primer for long periods. It dries hard and does not absorb water like other primers or sealers. If I had a stripped metal body that was to be a long term project, id use it without question, especially if it was going to spend a lot of time outdoors. Anyone whos sprayed some other primer on a rust spot on their car knows they dont do a thing but cover it up short term. Doesnt take any time at all before the rust is poking back out of it.


JUST FOR CLARITY....Im not putting anyone down that prefers using hardened primers. Thats their choice obviously. Im just talking about my own experiences with it and others I personally know. Lots of shops I know of use lacquer based primer and lots use the hardened primers that they swear by it. I know of one place that went to hardened primer but went back to laquer when they started having problems. Its all just a matter of choice like whether you want a Ford or Chevy. Using one or the other doesnt make you a good or bad shop. So again, ' I ' dont use it because of issues ive had with it and I cant justify the expense of it over what I use. I also dont justify the costs of high price paint like PPG and Dupont. I get better than 90% perfect matches with BASF/ R&M, something Ive never even come close to with the high dollar ones. For all over jobs or corner cutting repairs (that customer wants) and used cars, I generally use SW Dimension 4. Its cheaper than Kirker or Nason and works just as well......it just dont give reliable matches and if a perfect match isnt needed, theres no reason to spend more. Ill emphasize this again....I dont say my way is the only way and no one else can say the same. I just get so annoyed when anyone purports to be an authority with the ONLY way to do anything and anything else is wrong. There are always alternatives.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 09-28-2010).]

quote Originally posted by reinhart: Paul (tha driver), you tell me not to use high-build primer on the bumpers but then in your comprehensive thread you often refer to: http://gafieroclub.org/bbs/index.php?topic=469.0 you write: "After that, sand the epoxy with 180 wet before shooting the high-build. You can shoot the high-build over the entire panel, if it's wavy & needs blocking to flatten it out. But DON'T build up the high-build very thick on any flexible parts." So there you just say its ok, just not to overuse it on the bumpers.

Yeah I had visions of you spraying the entire bumper cover with non-flexible (or not-very-flexible) hi-build - & without epoxy under it. It's still better to use the epoxy, but if your repairs are pretty rough you can use the hi-build. You can also use the catalyst-hardened putty to fill in small imperfections, & not use the hi-build at all.
EDIT: But it's BEST to shoot epoxy first to promote adhesion for either the hi-build or the putty. Both only stick as well as laquer without the epoxy.

[This message has been edited by Tha Driver (edited 09-28-2010).]

Okay, lets remember this is someone elses thread. You're both pros at what you do and how you do it and you both have valuable information to impart. I think at this point it would be good to agree to disagree and let the readers decide on which of your approaches best suits them, or they can just follow the instructions on the product they chose. It's obvious you both are pretty passionate about the subject, but I'm not gonna learn as much as I could from either of you if the "paint brush" slinging doesn't stop. Just my attempt at some constructive input.

You see how many times you flat say im wrong and your right in one post. No primer doesnt improve adhesion EXCEPT to bare steel. No you dont use flex agent in primer, in fact primers ive used specificly say NOT to use flex agent in it even the laquer ones. If 2 part primers were recommended by the bumper manufacturers, how come the sticker on them specifly says ' this part is primed with automotive waterbourne primer...do not use other primers ' Next one I order, i can get a picture of that sticker. All regular primer surfacers work equally well on urathane as long as its not on thick. The EXCEPTION is waterbourne primer..it is superior to all the others because it is latex based and very flexible and stretchy. Bumpers peel and crack because repairs werent done correctly or the surface isnt prepped correctly not because they used this or that primer. I have to fix lots of bumpers on used cars and it dont make any difference. If it was done shoddy with one thing or the other, it still cracks or peels. I will agree with you single stage usually dont look as good as clearcoated, but it can. Lots of my cars were single stage, sanded and buffed and still look good 25 years later. I saw my Mercedes I did in 1989 at a show in August and other than a few chips in the front looked the same. It was SW single stage and I invented the color so its not been repainted. Hes put 40,000 more miles on it. Why would a shop using laquer primer, then switching to 2k, switch back because of issues ? Scuffing a good finish with a scotchbrite till its all dull adheres just as well as any sanded with sandpaper and gets areas you cant get with paper a lot cheaper and a whole lot less work. Ive put graphics on airplanes that are only prepped with scotchbrite and never had any peeling off the finish. Airplanes are exposed to a far harsher environment than any car. -20* to 150*+, rain, snow and hail,all at windspeeds of up to 400 mph, no UV protection at high altitude. If it was going to peel off it surely would. Look at what happens to a race car usually at less than 200 mph in just one short race from being sandblasted from dust and rubber.

My own cars with flexible bumpers, (Magnum, Mustang, Sebring) all have laquer primer and base/clear on them. None cracked or peeled or show any hint of it. Hey you just told me to try it and it will crack. Wel,l guess your wrong. I DID try your 2k primer on a Caddy hood a few months ago if you remember. Old Cad hood is huge and it only had a ding at one front corner. I even tried your blending technique to the letter. Well the blend didnt work, and if you remember I just taped off the hood to reshoot it the way I normally do. Spot the color, clear whole panel. Well your 2k primer lifted under the spot job. I had to strip the whole half the hood Id put the primer on and fix that before I could paint the hood my way. Your cheap fix advice cost me 2 days labor on a job I could have done just as well in 2 or 3 hours.

Now heres one for you. I got a dealers pickup in that had about a 6 inch rust spot over each rear wheel. Its a black 2000 Dodge. Im doing a little experiment. I did both sides body work primered with my primer. I fully masked both sides. I called a guy who paints for a big shop here in town that I know from car shows. Hes going to finish off one side his blending way and Im going to do the other side my way for comparison. Its totally equal, same vehicle, one color, I did all the repair work, same can of basecoat color and same clear, painted at same time in the same building, both sides are taped the same. Hell do his blend in job on one side, Ill do my blend the base, clear whole panel on the other side. We both keep track of oz of paint, oz of clear, and his blending solvent, and times. Both sides from the time each of us start till the time its deliverable. Result tomorrow afternoon.

Unbelievable!

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: You see how many times you flat say im wrong and your right in one post. No primer doesnt improve adhesion EXCEPT to bare steel.

Repeating an incorrect statement over & over does not make it correct...

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: I even tried your blending technique to the letter. Well the blend didnt work, and if you remember I just taped off the hood to reshoot it the way I normally do. Spot the color, clear whole panel. Well your 2k primer lifted under the spot job. I had to strip the whole half the hood Id put the primer on and fix that before I could paint the hood my way. Your cheap fix advice cost me 2 days labor on a job I could have done just as well in 2 or 3 hours.

Right... Did you use PPG epoxy both under & over the 2K??? No? Did you use any epoxy at all? No? Then don't tell me you tried my technique!
Did you spray blending agent made for the clear your were using both before & afdter shooting the clear? No? Then don't tell me you tried my technique!
You can go right on calling me a liar all you want. I can still blend urethane clear even if, in your infinite wisdom, you can't.
I've had enough of your BS & INCORRECT (wrong) information. There is plenty of correct info here for the OP to decide for himself. I'm done.

Not trying to get in the middle of anything, but can't you guys just agree to disagree and admit that there are multiple ways to get the same results? It seems like any time anybody mentions paint the thread ends up with you two arguing about proper technique...come on.

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: Unbelievable! Right... Did you use PPG epoxy both under & over the 2K??? No? Did you use any epoxy at all? No? Then don't tell me you tried my technique! Did you spray blending agent made for the clear your were using both before & afdter shooting the clear? No? Then don't tell me you tried my technique! You can go right on calling me a liar all you want. I can still blend urethane clear even if, in your infinite wisdom, you can't. I've had enough of your BS & INCORRECT (wrong) information. There is plenty of correct info here for the OP to decide for himself. I'm done.

Yes i did everything just like you said except the epoxy thing. Why would you use 2 kinds of primer on the same job at the same time ? Thats the dumbest thing Ive heard you say yet. I used 2k catalyzed primer, i used my basecoat, their clear and their blending solvent. The primer didnt have anything to do with blending the cleared spot in. Should have worked your way even if there was no primer at all. The whole thing was documented with pics....look it up. my little experiment is all the proper paints and thinners. Except I used my primer instead of yours. That should have no effect on how it looks, you not blending the primer. He pushes that you dont want a thick paint job, but he tells you to put on epoxy, then put primer over it, then seal it, then paint it and clear it. Whats that... 1/8" of materials, lol. Do that to an airplane and you cut the usefull load...lmao.

"Repeating an incorrect statement over & over does not make it correct... " exactly what I say all the time. duh.

No- putting primer over paint does nothing at all to make the paint stick better. Its a surfacer so you can remove/fill small flaws (like file marks) before the color coats. Only hillbillys & ricers think putting primer on their car makes paint stick. Sanding/scuffing makes paint stick.


**He prob wont even answer, thankfully. Maybe he will finally give up on his BS. now and go troll another website (if you do). I dont give up easily. Now everyone can do what they want Everyone got their paint jobs done just fine before he showed up. Im thinking one of his health issues is not using a mask and suffering mass brain damage.

(what a friggin jerkoff)

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 09-28-2010).]

quote Originally posted by 8-P: Not trying to get in the middle of anything, but can't you guys just agree to disagree and admit that there are multiple ways to get the same results? It seems like any time anybody mentions paint the thread ends up with you two arguing about proper technique...come on.

Well you see what he says about me after you posted this thread. But no; there are NOT multiple ways to get the same results. There are ways to do it quick, ways to do it cheap, & the best ways to do it to last as long as possible & look the best. You can do the first two at the same time, but you can't do either of the first two along with the third. You CAN, however, use the BEST primer under cheaper paint to make it stick better, more chip resistant, & therefore last longer - & not spend $1,000 on materials.
Notice how he's STILL repeating the SAME incorrect statement? I swear I think he believes if he says it enough times it'll become true... (sigh)
I only argue with him because he calls me a LIAR, & I REALLY don't appreciate that!
Now he calls ME a "hillbilly", & HE'S the one using materials from the freakin' 1950's! LMAO!

whats wrong with the 1950s? nothing is funny about that.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Yes i did everything just like you said except the epoxy thing. Why would you use 2 kinds of primer on the same job at the same time ? Thats the dumbest thing Ive heard you say yet. I used 2k catalyzed primer, i used my basecoat, their clear and their blending solvent. The primer didnt have anything to do with blending the cleared spot in. Should have worked your way even if there was no primer at all. The whole thing was documented with pics....look it up. my little experiment is all the proper paints and thinners. Except I used my primer instead of yours. That should have no effect on how it looks, you not blending the primer. He pushes that you dont want a thick paint job, but he tells you to put on epoxy, then put primer over it, then seal it, then paint it and clear it. Whats that... 1/8" of materials, lol. Do that to an airplane and you cut the usefull load...lmao. "Repeating an incorrect statement over & over does not make it correct... " exactly what I say all the time. duh. No- putting primer over paint does nothing at all to make the paint stick better. Its a surfacer so you can remove/fill small flaws (like file marks) before the color coats. Only hillbillys & ricers think putting primer on their car makes paint stick. Sanding/scuffing makes paint stick. **He prob wont even answer, thankfully. Maybe he will finally give up on his BS. now and go troll another website (if you do). I dont give up easily. Now everyone can do what they want Everyone got their paint jobs done just fine before he showed up. Im thinking one of his health issues is not using a mask and suffering mass brain damage. (what a friggin jerkoff)

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: 8-P. OK, ill completely agree hes and idiot and I stick to my guns. He does do some things the way I do, but I dont have to charge $10,000 for a paint job to cover materials costs either . BTW, Reinhart knew this was coming from a telephone conversation we had already.

Just quoted for prosperity, so he can't go back & change what he says about me - showing what a jerk he is. You just can't explain anything to someone like this who won't admit when he's wrong & continues to give WRONG information that will cost other's time & money when they have to re-do their paintjobs after following his "advice".

its just old school thats all :P
i dont see the need for name calling tho.
unless your joking around friendly. which i do

Checked this morning and the headliner is holding up fine. Looks pretty good and isn't drooping like it started doing when I was wiring in the new antenna leads.



I was able to burn out the rubber in the original antenna base and separate the cable. I pulled the cable into the cabin which left a hole in the frame that I plugged. Just didn't like the idea of air or bugs leaking into the cabin.



While I had the subwoofer out, I decided to install some Pioneer two-way speakers that I had.



Next I turned my attention to plugging the fender hole where the antenna used to be. I removed the rubber grommet and used a dremel to V the outside of the hole edges.



Then I plugged the hole on the inside of the fender with same of the flexible rubber bumper repair kit and the fiberglass mat strands I used on the rear bumper. Inside view:



And here's the view from the outside of the fender all plugged.



Next I'm going to pull the front bumper and inspect it. I'll install nuts and bolts where the absorber tends to droop over time like I did on the rear absorber earlier. I also need to do a minor repair to the other fender. This should complete the body repairs and then I'll be ready to sand. The sanding discs I ordered should be coming on Thursday so it will be perfect timing.

[This message has been edited by reinhart (edited 09-29-2010).]

For the record, laquers been around since ancient China and Japan used it. Anything thats been around a few thousand years cant be all bad.

**and yet even more crap about how wrong I am and your are the only one thats CORRECT (using your caps). Ive been doing this since mid 60s, owned my own shop for at least 30. You dont stay in business that long without satisfied customers. I cant keep repeat customers away, even after retireing. And how long have you ran a business ? (ya, thought so)

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: For the record, laquers been around since ancient China and Japan used it. Anything thats been around a few thousand years cant be all bad. **and yet even more crap about how wrong I am and your are the only one thats CORRECT (using your caps). Ive been doing this since mid 60s, owned my own shop for at least 30. You dont stay in business that long without satisfied customers. I cant keep repeat customers away, even after retireing. And how long have you ran a business ? (ya, thought so)

And yet he keeps putting me down....
Come out of the hills roger & join civilization. Yep laquer has been around forever. it's ANCIENT technology. Join the modern world & bring your paintjobs into the 21st century (or even the 20th if the 21st scares you). Make them last TWICE as long as they do now. Yeah I know they last long enough for you now, & you don't care if they last longer 'cause you don't believe folks keep their car for decades or pass it down to their heirs (your own statements). I'm surprised you even have a computer or any car newer than '69 for that matter, with your aversion to anything new.
As I said before, I haven't had the opportunities that you've had. I HAVE had people follow me where ever I've worked & bring their cars for me to paint - for decades. I'm pretty sure if your Ferrari customers knew you were using laquer on their cars - cars that came with better quality primer & paint from the factory - they'd run the other direction. Sure you can make them look good; I've done a lot of show cars in laquer back in the day - before better materials came out.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Guys do me a favor and just start a paint thread to debate the merits of your two systems. I'm trying to do a build thread not a paint wars thread.

quote Originally posted by reinhart: Guys do me a favor and just start a paint thread to debate the merits of your two systems. I'm trying to do a build thread not a paint wars thread.

I have to agree - this is getting ridiculous, not just on this thread, but you two are taking over all painting related discussions with your arguments. I've learned a lot from both of you in the past, but PLEASE stay constructive and focus on the technical and processes.

All my Corvette and Ferrari customers come to me because they WANT laquer and no other shops will do it because, like you, most dont know their ass from a hole in the ground. Ya, guys with classic Corvettes, Ferraris and Porsches plus others want their cars worked on or painted with what came on them new. New technology dont make everything better, thats why higher priced quality stuff is handmade, old, ancient or whatever you want to call it. I dolly and hammer, shrink and fix bodys the way old craftmen did them. New people just know how to either bolt new parts on or fill up everything with bondo. You cant call the dealer and order yourself a new 70 Ferrari fender....they dont exist. If you cant fix it, you have to fab it from scratch....ya the old fashioned, ancient way. In 50 years go out in a junkyard and see what kind of shape your new high tech car bodies are holding up like. I guarantee they wont be in the shape my 66 was with no rust. New tvs might do amazing things and have a fantastic picture.....but they dont last 30 years like old CRTs. Thats some more new hi tech for ya. I do million dollar classic cars for guys, one has a dozen or so, most of which I painted 20 years ago that all still look showroom new. He wont even think of taking one somewhere else. He flew me to Oregon a few years ago to give him an estimate on a car he wanted....thats loyalty.

Oh and before I forget, I just got done with that pickup. I paid the guy to blend in the spot on my repair on one side. He used 3 oz of basecolor and 3oz of clear, along with the blending solvent. he took about an hour and half to do all the spray work. He came back this morning and spent another hour and half to color sand it and buff it. I did the other side with 4 oz of color, 4 oz of clear and spent about 1/2 hour to do the whole side panel. I unmasked it and I didnt need to color sand and buff it. Apparently no one in Columbus can blend either, because it had a definate shiney ring around the spot in that area like a bulls eye. His statement was a 'customer will never notice that'. He did give me the money I paid him back. I took 2 hours this morning to sand the whole panel back down, id left it masked so didnt have to remask it. Spotted on the basecoat past his blend line and cleared the whole side, unmasked it ready to deliver. I lost a day, but guy was in no hurry for it. My way on both sides and it could have went out at 8 am this morning. Just waiting for it to cure so he can pick it up tommorrow. So theres some more of your hi tech new age crap. Ancient laquer would have blended in and polished up like new in a couple hours.

laquer has no strenght or durability put it in the sun for a couple months and it looks like crap !!! it is awsome for show cars ( trailer queens ) thats about it !! urathane blows it away all the way around the only good thing about laquer is its the easiest crap to use and anybody can use it !!! i would never use it on a street car !!!!!! cause after a little bit of weathering it will check from the sun cause it hase no uv protection but for a show car its the only way to go there is no shine like house of colors laq clear thats for sure!!! just my 2 cents

Just to differ with you. Laquer requires much more care, but it is durable with that extra care. Ive done many of my own cars in the past completely in laquer, as many customers cars. It used to be that any custom work had to be laquer because there was nothing else. Enamels and acrylic enamels would not do effects that laquer could. I still do mural work in laquers (but my supply is running short) Mine are def not trailer queens, they sit outside in sun, rain and snow and are driven year round. Ive known people with 30s model cars that still were in original paint and still shown. All GM cars were always done in laquer till basecoat came out in the 80s. House of Kolor clear is the absolutely worst clear laquer I ever used. A full custom van I did, never fully dried. I couldnt even sand it off with #80. It gummed up sandpaper in 10 seconds on the DA. I had to use chemical stripper to remove it. Ive never used it again. There colors are awesome, but nothing will get me to use their clear. Granted there not out exposed to the weather, but I have friends with oriental furniture that is hundreds of years old, and original beautiful hand finished laquer. The biggest problem with laquer is that if its too thick, it will chec or crow foot with age. Its brittle and dont handle sun very well if it is. One other fault ive seen is that laquer clear will yellow on a white car with age. If I go to a junkyard and find a good panel thats not rusted from a 50s or 60s car, it will buff up beautifully with rubbing compound. I have bought parts like that for repair work that I didnt have to even paint at all. All that being said, im def not advocating everyone should use laquer paint. Only a small percentage of my work is older cars being restored or repaired and to original specs. All your old Ferrari, Porsche, Corvette and such were laquer and stickler owners want them redone that way. By far the most work I do now is with basecoat, clearcoat jobs now and totally agree it is more durable, but still can fail. Ive redone lots of basecoat factory paint jobs that fail completely in just a few years. The laquer product I do stand by is primer surfacer. That is all I will use except in exceptional cases. Primer dont need any UV protection Ive stripped many Tauruses back to factory primer with just a power washer. Thats complete car, but for some reason their bumpers hold the paint. I love those jobs. After the paint is all gone, a few pieces of 320 on a DA, and the cars is ready to be reshot. So again, basecoat paint can fail just as fast...even factory applied.

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Owner / Operator Custom Paint and Body...
specializing in Corvette & Higher End Autos for 45 years
Ferrari, Mercedes and Porsche Body Repair Approved
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toys: '66 custom Dodge 'Super Bee'
power by 413 SuperStock V8
2008 Mustang Bullet Edition
1977 Cessna 172XP Hawk HiPerf