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Another SPEC bites the dust by arte444
Started on: 10-14-2007 08:06 PM
Replies: 149
Last post by: Bigfieroman on 12-16-2007 10:19 PM
SPRING GUY
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Report this Post10-16-2007 01:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SPRING GUYClick Here to Email SPRING GUYSend a Private Message to SPRING GUYDirect Link to This Post
Why does everybody hates the centerforce?? I put one in my 350 (atleast 300hp) swap with an archie kit and centerforce flywheel, but I did make a bronze piliot bushing to steady the shaft. I get 1st + 2nd rubber + 3rd gear chirp on a getrag, it engages beutiful never had chatter, shifts smooth....what else do you need???
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Report this Post10-16-2007 02:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Zac88GTClick Here to visit Zac88GT's HomePageClick Here to Email Zac88GTSend a Private Message to Zac88GTDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by SPRING GUY:

Why does everybody hates the centerforce?? I put one in my 350 (atleast 300hp) swap with an archie kit and centerforce flywheel, but I did make a bronze piliot bushing to steady the shaft. I get 1st + 2nd rubber + 3rd gear chirp on a getrag, it engages beutiful never had chatter, shifts smooth....what else do you need???


The centerforce dual friction i was using wouldn't even hold the torque from my 4.9.
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SPRING GUY
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Report this Post10-16-2007 02:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SPRING GUYClick Here to Email SPRING GUYSend a Private Message to SPRING GUYDirect Link to This Post
What clutch did you use, Zac??
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Report this Post10-16-2007 03:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Zac88GTClick Here to visit Zac88GT's HomePageClick Here to Email Zac88GTSend a Private Message to Zac88GTDirect Link to This Post
I used the centerforce with the 4.9 for a while, then i wasn't happy with it so i swapped out the centerforce pressure plate for the original pressure plate and it seemed to hold better. With the northstar i ran a stage 3+ for the few hundred km's that i put on it and now i'll continue to use the stage 3+ with the 6 speed but it's been welded up so it's essentially a full face stage 4.
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Report this Post10-16-2007 04:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Steven SnyderClick Here to visit Steven Snyder's HomePageClick Here to Email Steven SnyderSend a Private Message to Steven SnyderDirect Link to This Post
It sure looks like the pressure plate was rubbing against the springs on this one too... can you take some pics of the back side of the pressure plate fingers?
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Will
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Report this Post10-16-2007 08:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fierobsessed:

But then again, I don't know if your engine swaps (4.9, SBC) have a pilot bearing to help stabilize the input shaft.


FWD transmissions don't need a pilot bearing because they already have two bearings on the input shaft.

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Will
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Report this Post10-16-2007 08:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by SPRING GUY:

Why does everybody hates the centerforce?? I put one in my 350 (atleast 300hp) swap with an archie kit and centerforce flywheel, but I did make a bronze piliot bushing to steady the shaft. I get 1st + 2nd rubber + 3rd gear chirp on a getrag, it engages beutiful never had chatter, shifts smooth....what else do you need???


This is why I don't use a Centerforce anymore:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...030531-2-031481.html

The Centerforce was marginal with my Northstar. I feed the clutch for a dragstrip launch. I had to be VERY careful when I did that because if I got to full throttle before the clutch was fully hooked up, it WOULD NOT be able to pull the engine RPM down and hook up. It would slip like it wasn't even there, even with my foot all the way off the pedal. The clutch was the "fuse" in that driveline. I want a clutch that can take what I can dish out.

Any clutch with an organic lining of any kind is going to run into the same problem as organic brake pads... outgassing and fade. When the organic material gets hot, it outgasses and creates a cushion of gas between the lining and the flywheel or pressure plate preventing contact between the lining and pressure plate... the clutch CAN NOT hold torque until the slipping stops and it has a chance to cool below the outgassing temp.

The only way to get around this is to go with a ceramic material like the SPEC stage III has (or with carbon if you want to throw down $3,000 for a clutch).
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arte444
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Report this Post10-16-2007 02:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for arte444Click Here to Email arte444Send a Private Message to arte444Direct Link to This Post
I dont know what this is supposed to mean but heres another email I got from spec.

 
quote

The reason people have problems with these swaps is because it was never meant to be done. Since it is of a “modified” nature, every little detail has to be sweated…including the co-planar operation of all clutch components, the axial alignment of EVERYTHING, and the fact that the fiero has no pilot requires that extra care be taken to support the cantilevered-style input shaft. That’s difficult with nearly twice the displacement and the V8.

Let me know what you want to do.


They aren't giving me a refund or a new clutch either so screw em.

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Report this Post10-16-2007 02:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderDirect Link to This Post
I would think there is a manufacturer out there that would want to tackle this.... I am not a V8 Fiero owner, but I would think that all Spec would need is a V8 fiero (engine/tranny) sitting in their engineering area for a hour. They should be able to create a solution. Sounds like it is time to hit up other companies for the challenge.

J.
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Report this Post10-16-2007 03:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieromadmanClick Here to visit fieromadman's HomePageClick Here to Email fieromadmanSend a Private Message to fieromadmanDirect Link to This Post
I have had my spec stage 2 in my car for 25,000 miles and going... I've never had any problems with it and it still grabs hard!

By the way I beat the **** out of my car on a frequent basis. Last week a wheel bearing and CV joint went out.

------------------

--180* t-stat, cams, 96-97 intake swap, FFP pulley, A/C Idler, P/S idler, Ported exhaust mani's, flowmaster exhaust, EGR delete, K&N filter, chip-- --13.8 @ 99 (before cams full street trim)--
--Check out the Fiero Kingdom!--
Beater: Flat black 90 CRX with a JDM D15 VTEC <--ballin'!

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Report this Post10-16-2007 03:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ltlfrariClick Here to visit ltlfrari's HomePageClick Here to Email ltlfrariSend a Private Message to ltlfrariDirect Link to This Post
When I did my DOHC I used West Coast Fiero's 9 11/16 clutch and their 'organic' clutch disk. Now I'll admit the DOHC 'ain't a V8 but it did not have an easy life in my car and it held up just fine. Sounds to me like SPEC just can't be bothered any more, especially with comments like "The reason people have problems with these swaps is because it was never meant to be done. "
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Report this Post10-16-2007 03:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by arte444:
...They aren't giving me a refund or a new clutch either so screw em.


Sounds like they just want the Fiero community to go away.

Sorry. Not surprised, but sorry.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 10-16-2007).]

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arte444
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Report this Post10-16-2007 04:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for arte444Click Here to Email arte444Send a Private Message to arte444Direct Link to This Post
Can someone give me a part number for a clutch they use on their 4.9 As long as its anything but spec i'm willing to try it out.
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Report this Post10-16-2007 04:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroseverywhereClick Here to Email FieroseverywhereSend a Private Message to FieroseverywhereDirect Link to This Post
Comments like that are just stupid. When SPEC was approched with this challenge in the first place it was to solve the problem of power holding in the confined area of the fiero tranny. Sounds like they are trying to take the easy way out. SInce there product is not doing what it is suppose to do I would say it is time to move to someone else that is willing to do the job correctly and back thier work like a REAL company should. Not try to blame it on the car. They supposedly designed this clutch to be used on a higher HP fiero. The car is not to blame it is the clutches that keep failing in the same way on each car. Someone want to let SPEC know that this thread exists and we are getting pissed about it? How many of these clutches have they sold because of word of mouth advertising on this forum? I bought mine from another member on this forum and I know they aren't going to replace it if (when) it breaks.

I mean come on. There have been V8 fieros for 20+ years and no one has made a clutch that can handle the power. Rediculous.
I think its time they fess up to the problem and correct it.
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Report this Post10-16-2007 04:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere:
...Someone want to let SPEC know that this thread exists and we are getting pissed about it?
...


Already done.
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Report this Post10-16-2007 04:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonDirect Link to This Post
For some reason, the spec stage 3 we have been using in the manual swap here has killed 4 transmissions, and still showing no signs of slipping. Its been soaked in oil, a few times, and still has not shown any signs of letting up.

Based on my experience with spec, I would have to examine specific examples of failure, and possibly look for other things to be out of wack.
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Report this Post10-16-2007 04:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Jake_DragonSend a Private Message to Jake_DragonDirect Link to This Post
well I guess I will be contacting someone local when mine CF goes out. I was really hoping these would work out as I dont want to change out my clutch every 1000 miles and take the chance of it killing something else.
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Report this Post10-16-2007 04:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Matt HawkinsClick Here to Email Matt HawkinsSend a Private Message to Matt HawkinsDirect Link to This Post
I haved been using Clutchnet discs since I got my 3.4l DOHC turbo car done. They look similar to the spec clutch, but Clutchnet makes their own. The quality is top notch and I have been nothing but pleased with the performance. The disc runs about $165 and I use a stock pressure plate. This is with 415 WHP.

------------------
62 Buick Special
86 GT, 5-Speed
87 GT, 3.4l DOHC Turbo 415 HP @ wheels
88 Toyota Supra Turbo


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Report this Post10-16-2007 05:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Jeremy@SPECClick Here to visit Jeremy@SPEC's HomePageClick Here to Email Jeremy@SPECSend a Private Message to Jeremy@SPECDirect Link to This Post
Ray, thanks for sending this link to me...I appreciate the heads up. I have to admit, it never ceases to amaze me at the amount of misinformation that exists in forums such as these (though I assure you this forum is not alone). I want to try to address some apparent questions and issues and will do my best to get to these as quickly as possible. As you can imagine, I am a pretty busy guy, that in the course of a day answers lots of email, talks to numerous dealers and end users, and peruses a number of forums and thus there can be a delay in my responses. That being said, I will do my very best to offer insight and understanding to the sometimes overwhelming world of clutches and flywheeles.

I would like to start by saying that some of you really seem to have a good idea of the way that clutches operate. On the otherhand, there seems to be a decent amount of "band-wagon" mentality here as well. To that end, here is the situation as I see it. Thus far, Matt one of our engineers that moonlights in the Sales Dept., has provided the correct information based on the emails and pictures provided by Art. Input-shaft play is the leading killer of discs in cars that do not use a a pilot-bearing (I am sure you all know that the Fiero fits into this catagory). Some of you have aluded to the idea that we can somehow remedy this tendency out of the cars by changing the clutch assembly and this is simply not correct. It is true that cars like the Fiero use other internal bearing to reduce movement of the shaft...but remember guys, bearings wear and in the case of cars of this age, aside from replacing the input bearing, retainer, and race there is no way to nullify this potential for occurance. The thought that a clutch can be built to eliminate the potential for this to occur is misguided at best. The only solution is to rebuild the transmission, replacing the parts I mention above.

Art seems to be of the opinion that the shaft in his car has no increased play ("There is no wobble on the input shaft from what I can see and the transmission / clutch worked fine while I had my 4cyl")...the reality of input-shafts would make this assumption incorrect. You see, a shaft does not have to have slop so bad that it is detectable with the naked eye in order to be problematic. He will need to have the shaft checked with a dial indicator (as Dennis mentioned previously). This is the only true way to check the shaft for play. As a side note, lets be realistic here guys, these transmissions were not built yesterday...as these cars haven't been built in nearly 20 years.

It seems that some of you took offense to Matt's statement about the "The reason people have problems with these swaps is because it was never meant to be done. " This was not intended to anger or frustrate you...and I think that all of us can agree that these cars were not intended to have the motors that are being swapped into them these days. Beyond that, you should still expect to have a clutch that works properly. Though I ask that you realise that the added stress attributed to engine swaps (and the increase power and weight they lend to the equation) can certainly tax other components (i.e. input bearing etc...). I would have expected you all to understand this as a given...but I wanted to make sure that it is written so we can at the very least understand it as a given reality in the future.

Art's next frustration revolves around the fact that we offered to sell a new disc to him at a reduced cost. Our clutches do come with a warranty, that is 120 days from the date of purchase. As I understand it, this unit was purchased more than a year ago, though it was installed more recently. That being said, I am still more than happy to speak with Art or any of your in regards to this or any other issue if need be. I am a reasonable guy, that is just as much an enthusiats as the rest of you. Remember, SPEC has been building clutches for nearly 2 decades. We are very familiar with these cars and the swaps that are common to them. As such we are also familiar with the issues that can occur as a result. Please feel free to contact me directly with any concerns you may have. Thanks for your time!

------------------
J. Auvil
Jeremy@specclutch.com
800-828-4379 x.109

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Joseph Upson
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Report this Post10-16-2007 05:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by arte444:

I dont know what this is supposed to mean but heres another email I got from spec.

quote

The reason people have problems with these swaps is because it was never meant to be done. Since it is of a “modified” nature, every little detail has to be sweated…including the co-planar operation of all clutch components, the axial alignment of EVERYTHING, and the fact that the fiero has no pilot requires that extra care be taken to support the cantilevered-style input shaft. That’s difficult with nearly twice the displacement and the V8.

Let me know what you want to do.


They aren't giving me a refund or a new clutch either so screw em.


I know an excuse when I hear one and that response in my opinion is clearly the mark of a company I would not give another penny. It clearly indicates to me several issues that they apparently are aware of needs to be done to accomodate such an application, that they didn't care to go through the trouble to do, so basically they went ahead and took your money for a product that they knew would have problems because of the pilot bearingless Getrag being mated to a V8 as implied, when a company planner with half a brain knows the best thing to do is do it right or not at all.

V6 guys unless your engines are putting down V8 torque numbers at rpm points as low as the V8 your Spec success can not be counted as a plus for the Spec clutch since torque is what the clutch is trying to hold. I know I've mentioned it before but since viewing the centerforce pressure plate strap failure that Will linked to I'll encourage you to consider a local builder that you can talk to about your power holding capacity and get an individual custom clutch. My builder pointed out that he could install a thicker pressure plate strap (referencing the one that busted on the centerforce) as part of my build up and I didn't know that could be a problem area.

Guys this is just like custom pistons for our engines, they cost so much partly because of the tooling rearrangement, likewise big comapanies like Spec are not likely to put that much effort into our small demand one off needs. I bet if the numbers were crunched and checked against the standard you would find that the failure rate in this application is well outside of what is acceptable. If what they sell you is failing at performance levels less than what they quote, going to their next level product is not the proper solution, fixing the problem or pulling the product is.

You wouldn't take that kind of crap from the cable company if they sell you 100 channel cable package and when you fire up the system you find you're only getting 75 channels. Bait and switch anybody.
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Report this Post10-16-2007 06:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Jeremy@SPECClick Here to visit Jeremy@SPEC's HomePageClick Here to Email Jeremy@SPECSend a Private Message to Jeremy@SPECDirect Link to This Post
Joseph, this is not a situation of bate a swith. We have a less that 1% return rate on every clutch we build (this includes units that are ordered incorrectly, returned for refreshening, and those that come back for warranty). Anything that is returned to us is logged and accounted for in a system that we use to track the product. We offer a number of options for our customers including sprung and rigid disc options. There are great successes with both, and Matts offer of a reduced price on another disc was a nicety. Remember, this unit is more than a year old (and the warranty is based on days not miles). That being said, I can understand your perspective...but I think it may be a bit clouded. Let me know if you have any further questions.

------------------
J. Auvil
Jeremy@specclutch.com
800-828-4379 x.109

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Report this Post10-16-2007 06:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GKDINCSend a Private Message to GKDINCDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Jeremy@SPEC:

Ray, thanks for sending this link to me...I appreciate the heads up. I have to admit, it never ceases to amaze me at the amount of misinformation that exists in forums such as these (though I assure you this forum is not alone). I want to try to address some apparent questions and issues and will do my best to get to these as quickly as possible. As you can imagine, I am a pretty busy guy, that in the course of a day answers lots of email, talks to numerous dealers and end users, and peruses a number of forums and thus there can be a delay in my responses. That being said, I will do my very best to offer insight and understanding to the sometimes overwhelming world of clutches and flywheeles.

I would like to start by saying that some of you really seem to have a good idea of the way that clutches operate. On the otherhand, there seems to be a decent amount of "band-wagon" mentality here as well. To that end, here is the situation as I see it. Thus far, Matt one of our engineers that moonlights in the Sales Dept., has provided the correct information based on the emails and pictures provided by Art. Input-shaft play is the leading killer of discs in cars that do not use a a pilot-bearing (I am sure you all know that the Fiero fits into this catagory). Some of you have aluded to the idea that we can somehow remedy this tendency out of the cars by changing the clutch assembly and this is simply not correct. It is true that cars like the Fiero use other internal bearing to reduce movement of the shaft...but remember guys, bearings wear and in the case of cars of this age, aside from replacing the input bearing, retainer, and race there is no way to nullify this potential for occurance. The thought that a clutch can be built to eliminate the potential for this to occur is misguided at best. The only solution is to rebuild the transmission, replacing the parts I mention above.

Art seems to be of the opinion that the shaft in his car has no increased play ("There is no wobble on the input shaft from what I can see and the transmission / clutch worked fine while I had my 4cyl")...the reality of input-shafts would make this assumption incorrect. You see, a shaft does not have to have slop so bad that it is detectable with the naked eye in order to be problematic. He will need to have the shaft checked with a dial indicator (as Dennis mentioned previously). This is the only true way to check the shaft for play. As a side note, lets be realistic here guys, these transmissions were not built yesterday...as these cars haven't been built in nearly 20 years.

It seems that some of you took offense to Matt's statement about the "The reason people have problems with these swaps is because it was never meant to be done. " This was not intended to anger or frustrate you...and I think that all of us can agree that these cars were not intended to have the motors that are being swapped into them these days. Beyond that, you should still expect to have a clutch that works properly. Though I ask that you realise that the added stress attributed to engine swaps (and the increase power and weight they lend to the equation) can certainly tax other components (i.e. input bearing etc...). I would have expected you all to understand this as a given...but I wanted to make sure that it is written so we can at the very least understand it as a given reality in the future.

Art's next frustration revolves around the fact that we offered to sell a new disc to him at a reduced cost. Our clutches do come with a warranty, that is 120 days from the date of purchase. As I understand it, this unit was purchased more than a year ago, though it was installed more recently. That being said, I am still more than happy to speak with Art or any of your in regards to this or any other issue if need be. I am a reasonable guy, that is just as much an enthusiats as the rest of you. Remember, SPEC has been building clutches for nearly 2 decades. We are very familiar with these cars and the swaps that are common to them. As such we are also familiar with the issues that can occur as a result. Please feel free to contact me directly with any concerns you may have. Thanks for your time!





Jeremy Thanks for taking the time to respond to the concerns of your product. It's not everyday that a company will do this.
Lots of good information posted. We Fiero owners are a niche market and I would like to thank Spec for atleast supplying a product for us to work with.
Gary
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Report this Post10-16-2007 06:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonDirect Link to This Post
That's a heads up for the Getrag but are we to accept that as also being the likely cause for the 6 spd tranny with barely a 2 yr existence in a GM car that has suffered the same failure with a Spec clutch?
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Report this Post10-16-2007 06:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Jeremy@SPEC:

Joseph, this is not a situation of bate a swith. We have a less that 1% return rate on every clutch we build (this includes units that are ordered incorrectly, returned for refreshening, and those that come back for warranty). Anything that is returned to us is logged and accounted for in a system that we use to track the product. We offer a number of options for our customers including sprung and rigid disc options. There are great successes with both, and Matts offer of a reduced price on another disc was a nicety. Remember, this unit is more than a year old (and the warranty is based on days not miles). That being said, I can understand your perspective...but I think it may be a bit clouded. Let me know if you have any further questions.



Sorry but the bait and switch comment is only intended for the hypothetical cable television situation it was attached to. Unfortunately however the lack of an explanation over the number of problems of this nature with the Spec clutch in this situation available to the members using it and those reading about it leaves much to speculation. And as previously mentioned, a similar failure with the Spec clutch was noted in a transmission barely 2 years old (6spd F40) that one would think is highly unlikely to have an input shaft runout problem. I do commend you on your poise and professionalism despite the nature of the content regarding your product. None the less answers are needed in these situations and when they come about slowly the mind wonders.
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Report this Post10-16-2007 07:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Jake_DragonSend a Private Message to Jake_DragonDirect Link to This Post
Link to the 6 speed swap, I hope the solid hub works for him
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/086132.html
If the solid hub works out for Alex I may try one but time will tell.

There have been several posts about hubs built wrong and causing bearing failure, it stuck out too far on the wrong side.
I dont need that kind of head ache.
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Report this Post10-16-2007 07:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for arte444Click Here to Email arte444Send a Private Message to arte444Direct Link to This Post
Sorry for starting the flames guys. I'm going to take my transmission in and have the runout measured on the input shaft just to see whats up. Either way i'm going with a full disc next time just because that will satisfy any play in the bearings even if they are good.
I'll let you guys know what happens.
-Kyle
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Report this Post10-16-2007 07:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GKDINCSend a Private Message to GKDINCDirect Link to This Post
V-8 Archie is selling kits to install the G6 tranny, I would be interested in what clutch he recommends or uses. I have no dog in this fight, nor do I care if it's SPEC, CENTERFORCE, Or whoever, I will probably never need to know on a user bases, but to pass judgement just for this forum, is not the best way.
JMO
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Report this Post10-16-2007 07:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroseverywhereClick Here to Email FieroseverywhereSend a Private Message to FieroseverywhereDirect Link to This Post
I had the same question about the 6 speed. We have also had posted failures with the isuzu 5 speed aswell. I cant remember off the top of my head about the 4 speeds. Now you stated that you have a less then 1% return rate for all your clutches. What is your return rate for just the fiero clutches? Is it significantly higher for these little cars? If so what do you perpose as a solution to this dilema. I for one would like to have you guys around in the future as the swaps get more powerful and we figure out other transmissions that will work for the job (not many, thanks to GM).

Speaking for myself I DO appreciate you steping up to speak with us about your product. It shows that you do care enough to defend your product. I am worried that the amount of recent failures is the beginning of a bad trend that could lead to a loss of the fiero community for you guys. I also have an interest since I just installed one (stage3) with my rebuilt 4.9 less then a month ago and it will still be a month or two before the car is running. Even if I had bought it new from you instead of new from another member on this forum the warrenty would be up before the car is running as is the case with many of the people doing engine swaps here on this forum. I dont have a clue on the original purchase date but when I bought it I had only heard good things about SPEC. Now I am seeing an increasing failure rate which has me worried if I should even use it at all. The transmission is an 88 isuzu that has only 60k original miles. Though over 20 years old it has been well taken care of and is in excellant shape.

The common thing I have seen on the failures is the wear on the inside of the pressure plate from rubbing against the springs. Any comments on this?
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Report this Post10-16-2007 07:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GKDINCSend a Private Message to GKDINCDirect Link to This Post
I don't think you started any Flames! You had a problem and it may be part of the solution. Lets hope it all works out.
Gary
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Report this Post10-16-2007 08:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Jake_DragonSend a Private Message to Jake_DragonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by arte444:

Sorry for starting the flames guys. I'm going to take my transmission in and have the runout measured on the input shaft just to see whats up. Either way i'm going with a full disc next time just because that will satisfy any play in the bearings even if they are good.
I'll let you guys know what happens.
-Kyle


Thanks for posting, with no feed back we wont know what we are getting into. It will also help SPEC make a better clutch if they get feed back from people that live and bleed these cars.
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Raydar
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Report this Post10-16-2007 08:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarDirect Link to This Post
Jeremy... Thanks for responding.

 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:
..And as previously mentioned, a similar failure with the Spec clutch was noted in a transmission barely 2 years old (6spd F40) that one would think is highly unlikely to have an input shaft runout problem...


Unless I'm badly mistaken, the F40 transmissions that are being used are nearly all "new, unused, surplus" stock, that GM sold off when they changed gear ratios. They were made available to several vendors on this forum, and they're all over e-Bay. There's not really a need to ever use one with any miles on it at all, unless you've just got to have those revised ratios.
Alex's F40 may have been purchased used, since it was one of the earlier swaps, but still shouldn't be worn enough to frag a clutch disk.
In my mind, it just doesn't wash.

Regarding the email I sent to Spec...
My rather terse comment regarding the state of the weather in hell being a factor in any future purchases was also fallout from a previous thread that was posted here, regarding a Spec 2 clutch that was installed behind a stock 2.8. Seems that the splined center hub was installed backwards, and caused the end of the release bearing sleeve of the transmission to be hammered to the point that the release bearing was rendered useless (among other things.)
Spec continues (probably to this day) to either, A: acknowledge that there was (is?) a problem, but that it has been (will be?) corrected in any future product; or B: deny that this situation ever existed, and that the problem is "elsewhere".
This seems to vary, depending upon who you happen to talk with when you call.

For those who care, here's the link.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...060811-1-057878.html

To summarize... We have a newly rebuilt tranny, damaged because of obviously incorrect construction of one of your clutches, and you guys got so pissed when the owner wouldn't just "suck it up" that you wouldn't even return the defective disc that he sent in for evaluation.
If I remember correctly, I believe that that you offered him a 25% discount on a future purchase, but then you wouldn't even apply that discount to the replacement that he had purchased just a few days before you extended that "offer". How fscking disingenuous can you get?!

People here have long memories.

To the rest of the posters/readers...
My apologies for dragging this off topic as it relates to the Stage 3, but the larger issue is still customer service, and it still seems to be sadly lacking.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 10-16-2007).]

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GKDINC
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Report this Post10-16-2007 08:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GKDINCSend a Private Message to GKDINCDirect Link to This Post
"We have a newly rebuilt tranny, damaged because of obviously incorrect construction of one of your clutches,"
I know I don't know. So tell me how this happens.
Thanks
Gary
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Report this Post10-16-2007 09:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by GKDINC:

"We have a newly rebuilt tranny, damaged because of obviously incorrect construction of one of your clutches,"
I know I don't know. So tell me how this happens.
Thanks
Gary


Are you asking me how the damage happens?

The splined hub is installed backwards in the clutch disk, with the collar protruding towards the tranny instead of the flywheel.
The protruding hub is forced against the end of the sleeve where the throwout bearing slides. Over time, it distorts the sleeve and can cause the throwout bearing to bind.

As to how they get assembled backwards, I don't know.
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Report this Post10-16-2007 10:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:
The splined hub is installed backwards in the clutch disk, with the collar protruding towards the tranny instead of the flywheel.

Wouldn't this imply that the disc was installed backwards onto the flywheel? Or am I missing something here?
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Report this Post10-16-2007 10:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaDirect Link to This Post
Not to side with Jeremy from spec; I do believe that his post has some merit. We will be installing a spec 3 on another 3800SC swap that we will do shortly. One area that will not be overlooked is the trans. It is a 21 yr old box and you can bet that we WILL be measuring the input shaft runout and checking for end play. If you up the power input on transmissons without pilot bearing support on the end of the input shaft your transmisson better be well within specifications or no clutch will last. Now if we install a spec 3 on a trans that meets all the acceptable tolerances and it fails then I would blame the clutch. Until such time I would have to extend the benefit of the doubt to spec clutches. Also remember that we are putting more power to the GETRAG than it was originally designed to handle. I would expect that it would hold a 3800SC but a LT1 or LS2; I would have my doubts.
When I hear comments like "runout my a*s, this would only serve to prove how little this individual knows about drivetrains. Input runout, input shaft alignment and end play are all CRITICAL to clutch and transmission life. Believe it or not!

------------------
87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds
2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress
Engine Controls, PCM goodies,
re-programming & odd electronics stuff
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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SPRING GUY
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Report this Post10-17-2007 01:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SPRING GUYClick Here to Email SPRING GUYSend a Private Message to SPRING GUYDirect Link to This Post
Just make a pilot bushing ( or get one made a machine shop with a couple measurements and maybe $50 ) weather in was designed without it or not it will steady the end of the shaft, thus no run out....Right?
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Report this Post10-17-2007 02:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for IXSLR8Click Here to Email IXSLR8Send a Private Message to IXSLR8Direct Link to This Post
I purchased a spec stage 3+ clutch kit for my N* swap just recently. I bought the spec set-up because they also offered a flywheel. I will look forward to seeing what happens with mine after the break in period. I had my getrag transmission rebuilt so it will be interesting to see how it works. I figure I have another month of work and I'll be ready to drive it.

I also had the clutchnet.com clutch set-up that I bought from Igor (dont' know if he's still there) a few years back for my modified 3800SC fiero. I had them build me a clutch that would hold 350Hp. I asked them to modify my pressure plate with more clamp load. They put two diaphrams in it and it worked flawlessly under load and at the strip. I had no issues under WOT in every gear. I was very impressed. It was a hard clutch to push (like a truck) but it was worth it to me to have the extra confidence in the products ability to perform. It was expensive though.

The outcome of my N* swap will tell me what clutch to get if this one fails. it better not after all that money I spent.

I'll post how it goes, eh.
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Report this Post10-17-2007 06:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

Wouldn't this imply that the disc was installed backwards onto the flywheel? Or am I missing something here?


The center of the disc (the carrier for the springs) protrudes from the face of the disc. It will only go in one way, unless you really just are not paying attention, and don't notice that you are forcing the center hub, including the springs, against the flywheel bolts.
I suppose you can put it in backwards (the effects would be very noisy and ugly if you managed to get that far) but that's not the issue, here.
The discs are clearly labeled "flywheel side", so their kind of foolproof in that regard. The issue is the steel hub in the center of the spring carrier. The single piece that has the splines in it. It's actually turned around backwards on some discs.

It's well documented on this forum.
I'll try to post pics later. I'm pressed for time as I'm about to go to work.


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Report this Post10-17-2007 06:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for OreifClick Here to visit Oreif's HomePageClick Here to Email OreifSend a Private Message to OreifDirect Link to This Post
I have been following this thread and was surprised that Jeremy signed up and replied. Many companies would normally not do this because of the small niche Fiero's make up. At least they care enough to address our concerns and/or problems. As Dennis stated the input shaft alignment and end play has a lot to do with clutch life.
I have a SPEC III in my 4-spd for about 3 years and so far have had no problems with it. Originally it had a little chatter during break-in but now it is smooth and works great. There does seem to be a few others also having good luck with SPEC clutches as well.

From what I have read here it appears that most failures seem to be with the Getrag 5-spd and there are a few 6-spd's now. Has anyone had an issue with the 4-spd? Also does anyone know if the input shaft runout is designed differently between the 4-spd, 5-spd, and 6-spd? Could the input shaft bearing be different (size, thickness, design, etc.) and causing an issue? Maybe we could get a few measurements and see if there could be something we're missing when doing swaps. At the very least with the above info we could work together with SPEC and possibly resolve the issues.

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Happiness IS the corner.

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Report this Post10-17-2007 09:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierosoundClick Here to visit fierosound's HomePageClick Here to Email fierosoundSend a Private Message to fierosoundDirect Link to This Post
I have a Spec stage 3 installed and haven't had any problems in 4 years. Maybe I was the lucky one?

In any event, anyone doing a swap should freshen/rebuild their Getrag while they have everything apart. Rebuild kits are relatively cheap these days and a fresh tranny can never hurt.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymot...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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