In a fiero 86 gt v6 that already has a 4 spd auto tranny.

1. What is the basic price of the swap for the 3.4 dohc swap? (heck maybe -if anyone willing - could give me a prie list for all the different parts in the swap- I WOUl LOVE YOU FOREVER AND GET YOU A WHORE FOR YOUR BATCHLORHOOD!)
2. Links please to swap tutorials or help?
3. How difficutl is the swap?
4. is that tranny in the fiero i got going to hold up to say 276 wheel bhp or so?

put it this way - I have about 5K into my 3.4 dohc turbo fiero - including the cost of the car, rims, turbo, wideband setup, autoprom realtime programmer, integra seats, custom gauges, poly suspension, poly craddle bushings, etc

the parts I bought that would take to do just teh engine swap....

gascharged decklid strut - 15$
engine - 1000$ (most people seem ot find them cheaper)
dickman front poly tranny mount - 55$
enegery suspension poly trans mount for front of engine - 25$
dodge truck mount for rear tranny mount - 5$
brand new 88 flywheel - 65$ (or get a lightened one from fiero store for ~260$)
spec stage 2 clutch - 300$
arp hardened flywheel bolts for pinto - 10$
new plugs, wires, waterpump - 75$
assorted hoses vac lines - 20$
darth chip - 35$
i did my own wiring but you can get it done for - 200$
intake and cone filter - 30$
exhaust tubing, cat con, tube mufflers and tips - 300$

thats 2135$

now if yours is an auto you can negate the clutch and flywheel bolts

so it's be 1825$

remember in that price the engine cost 1000$ and you payed someone else to do your wiring

if you do your own wiring then that'll save you 200$ and if you find an engine for say 600$ that'd save you another 400$

so you could do it all for about 1200 for an auto or 1500 for a stick shift

quote Originally posted by vega: 4. is that tranny in the fiero i got going to hold up to say 276 wheel bhp or so?

276whp on a DOHC? My understanding is that you're looking at around 200whp on the stock DOHC.

I've never done a 3.4 swap. Concerning the tranny. It should hold up fine, but if it's a high mileage tranny you might want to have it rebuilt to be on the safe side

i am going to get the motor to throw that mcuh power to the wheels with some mods i am looking at...

Also what cars should i be looking for to grab that engine out of- and i am sure i can find that engine for about 600 or so...

also what do i need the following for?

gascharged decklid strut - 15$
enegery suspension poly trans mount for front of engine - 25$ (i did nto know i had to use different mounts i thought it was a bolt it???)
dodge truck mount for rear tranny mount - 5$
waterpump? why can't i use the stock one off the 3.4dohc?
darth chip - 35$??? why would i need this?
intake and cone filter - 30$( again can't i use the stock ones off the 3.4?)

I can wire it myself BTW. and i am not using a cat i know of a shop that will do a mandrel bent setup for cash for with no cat

I've got about $4500 in my swap and it's not in the car yet. But, that's with a crate motor and just about everything else new or modified and powder coated. Not implying you can't do it for way less, I just don't want to have problems after it's in. It's all the little crap that adds up. If I were looking to just get a motor in the car and start having fun, I don't think you could beat this deal:

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/028623.html

That is way less than he has in it and it's a proven install.

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1988 GT, 5-speed, white, beechwood leather, 3.4 DOHC installation in process.

Got my engines for $300 a pop. Its pretty straight foward, search my name in the archive TD&Q you'll find most of the DOHC threads, and I have a biuld thread in there. Im running the stock fiero intake system, with a K&N. Ive monitored the MAP values with and without the intake installed, and found them pretty much the same. You cannot use the 3.4 intake, doesnt work without mods. You'll need a chip for the ECM (Darth) most all 3.4s are autos, at least every one Ive seen. I think he means just replacing the stock waterpump for maintance. At least im assuming, theres no need to do anything special with it. Also about $20 for hoses for the cooling system. Ive got part numbers for those. The stock tranny should be fine. You can use stock mounts, but if you get a good half inch drill bit and some dodge truck mounts you can lower it pretty god, and make the front plugs much easier to change.

quote Originally posted by vega: i am going to get the motor to throw that mcuh power to the wheels with some mods i am looking at... Also what cars should i be looking for to grab that engine out of- and i am sure i can find that engine for about 600 or so... also what do i need the following for?

gascharged decklid strut - 15$

you have to remove the stock torsion bars as they are in the way of the front cam pulleys

energy suspension poly trans mount for front of engine - 25$ (i did nto know i had to use different mounts i thought it was a bolt it???)
dodge truck mount for rear tranny mount - 5$

you can use stock rubbers - but I highly recommend you don't.. I've broken way to many of those with far less power than the 3.4dohc has to offer
the mounts I listed is one way of doing it - and is inexpensive.. you can use all of rodney dickmans poly mounts, or wcf's mounts --- you will need atleast one custom mount - which is a dogbone or torque strut - I did both on mine.

waterpump? why can't i use the stock one off the 3.4dohc?

oh I was mostly thinking out loud on what i spent on mine there - the water pump is actually very easy to change with the engine in the car - only 5 bolts - far easier than a stock 2.8 pump -- I put it in the list because I had to replace mine a month after getting the engine in

darth chip - 35$??? why would i need this?

to make it run properly in the fiero unless you can find a 91-93 3.4dohc manual chip and run the 91-93 dohc computer

intake and cone filter - 30$( again can't i use the stock ones off the 3.4?)

uh.. well you might be able to find a way to make it fit - but why? just to save 30$?

[This message has been edited by Kohburn (edited 10-06-2005).]

THis is jsut great you guys are helpful as heck. I have never beent o a forum where i am ansered like in 15 minutes. Hey btw is this swap pretty easy then? I mean in swap terms?

" 86GT3.4DOHC" the following is for you. (btw you rock my face off hardcore)

1. I would like that wiring diagram that you made for a plug and play btw.

2. Could i have a link to that build thread?

3. I would also like the part numbers for all the hoses you said you got.

(everyone) Ok well where do i get the following from for the cheapest then?

darth chip
gascharged decklid strut
dickman front poly tranny mount
intake and cone filter
dodge truck mounts(what year truck and what truck and what engine ect.... and what is meant by lowering it?)

One last thing so the 4 speed auto that is in the fiero now WILL hold up to 280hp wheel HP????????

[This message has been edited by vega (edited 10-06-2005).]

quote Originally posted by vega: THis is jsut great you guys are helpful as heck. I have never beent o a forum where i am ansered like in 15 minutes. Hey btw is this swap pretty easy then? I mean in swap terms? " 86GT3.4DOHC" the following is for you. (btw you rock my face off hardcore) 1. I would like that wiring diagram that you made for a plug and play btw. 2. Could i have a link to that build thread? 3. I would also like the part numbers for all the hoses you said you got. (everyone) Ok well where do i get the following from for the cheapest then? darth chip gascharged decklid strut dickman front poly tranny mount intake and cone filter dodge truck mounts(what year truck and what truck and what engine ect.... and what is meant by lowering it?) One last thing so the 4 speed auto that is in the fiero now WILL hold up to 280hp wheel HP????????

the 4speed auto you have must be the 4t60 non e (meaning its not electronicly controlled)
you are probably better off buying a 3.4dohc with its matching auto tranny and wiring/computer as a complete set

you don't need to lower the engine but it makes some things easier - or you can just buy a complete set of poly mounts from www.rodneydickman.com

the intake you can just get your exhaust shop to bend up a peice of 3" tubing and stick a K&N filter on the end (ebay is a good source)

the chip would be courtesy of darthfiero - http://www.gmtuners.com/

you can also get a nice proffesional decklid strut kit from rodney dickman - I just got a universal strut off the shelf and made my own brackets for it to work

no part numbers for hoses - just a couple lengths of vacuum line and heater hose

the rest was reused from a 2.8 fiero including modifying the stock 2.8 thermostat filler neck to work in line to the drivers side coolant tube.

I've got a very limited thread of some details here https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/044666-2.html

i have a lot more pictures posted in the other guys build threads though

Send me a PM with your email address and I will send you my excel spreadsheet with the cost of every item involved in the swap. I think it came out to like $1200 + motor & ECM.

Is it true that if you're putting one in an 88, you don't need any custom mounts? Also, what have you guys done for a dogbone?

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quote Originally posted by JamesCurtis: Is it true that if you're putting one in an 88, you don't need any custom mounts?

Yes, but it makes things easier to mount the engine lower with different mounts, and the Fiero rubber mounts are bareky adequate for the torque anyway.

quote Also, what have you guys done for a dogbone?

Some have used the Fiero 4-cylinder dogbone. I used a long swaybar endlink with poly bushings. Kohburn used a piece of angle iron with similar bushings on each end. Just do a search and you'll find all the buildup threads and what people have done.

My swap is currently in progress and I plan to post in detail when it is complete. I used Rodney's poly mounts on the transmission and engine. What I did differently is I did not use the 85-87 Fiero V6 front engine mount trimmed down to fit around the massive front timing cover of the 3.4 dohc. I used the 88 V6 "U" shaped bracket and welded it to the steel housing of the poly mount before bolting it into the 88 cradle. This makes the engine practically rock solid but I am replacing the AC compressor with one that is compatible with the 4 cylinder AC hoses without mods so it bolts right up and it is a tight fit between the steel part of the hoses and muffler exiting the compressor. In this situation an upper dogbone makes sense still if not just for reassurance.

I am using Rodney's adjustable poly dogbone and the mounting ends of two dogbone engine brackets from a 2.8 Fiero engine. One is welded to the lift bracket next to the power steering pump and the other to the rear of the trunk. The original trunk dogbone mount that is welded to the trunk and strut tower was removed for clearance of the cam carrier. Mounting in the 88 cradle appears to be different than a pre-88 as far as positioning goes but although it is a tight fit it is pretty well adapted to do so especially with a Getrag and stock 3.4 manifolds.

I know a lot of people who like the Fiero style routing of the exhaust use the front manifold on both sides and fabricate a crossover and down pipe. This works ok for the 91-95 motor but the 96-97 such as mine can't be done this way because of the design change on the head exhaust ports and cross over.

Shop is about ready for exhaust and to plug in the wiring harness so in about 1 to 2 weeks I hope to see it running after we get a few kinks worked out of it.

Personally I think the dohc 3.4 was made for this car and a few people at Pontiac did too as is evident from the 89 prototype we recently saw in Oakbrook.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/067191.html this shows my dogbone setup if your interested. also when you put a front exhaust manifold on the rear the ports do not line up correctly. it will bolt up though.

Well what is the dog bone? i am sort of confused. what am i looking at when i look at the pictures?

As far as 96/97 exhaust manifolds, you can use a front manifold flipped over for the rear head. To get everything lined up, you will have to make an adapter . My project is on hold sitting on the milling machine. Basically it's a .750 thick plate of 6061 aluminum. You use socket head bolts to attach it to the head and studs or whatever you wish to attach the manifold to the plate. The second manifold and crossover I got on Ebay never arrived and the transaction is in dispute. I havenen't heard of anyone using the stock rear manifold, seems the outlet aims right at the trunk wall with little room for a bend of tubing.

This will explain everything that'll take me 983439483 paragraphs to type out: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/059801.html It's packed full of billions of little details nobody else takes the time to post up.

You can use the stock front and rear manifolds, and the crossover. The rear manifold juuuuust clears the trunk, and you'll have to get really creative building an ultra short exhaust system - but it should flow great. You'll have problems with the crossover if you're not using a Getrag 5 speed or 4T60 Automatic (not recommended) due to interference. Another thing I think you should know is that there is a high probability of engine failure with a junkyard motor. I've personally experienced getting two bad motors, one after the other (one compression tested ok but was bad on startup due to bad headgasket and rusted cylinder) and another couple people on here have had failures within a couple thousand miles after startup with non-rebuilt junkyard engines. If you go the boneyard route, plan on spending up to 2500 bucks to rebuild. Other than that, look around on peoples build threads for an idea of what to expect. Good luck if you choose to do it.

You can do the swap pretty cheap, here's how. You dont need poly mounts, you could use all the stock 2.8 mounts, it just would be nice to have poly. It is best to start with a car that had the 2.8 in it. That way it is a direct bolt in. if it is not an 88 then you just have to trim the front engine bracket a little bit. A dog bone setup is not that hard you just gotta be creative.

You can use the stock clutch, seeing how the 4.9 guys can get away with it. However since I recently changed my clutch to a Spec stage two, I wish I did it sooner. The stock clutches I was getting for some reason kept breaking apart if I would get in the high rpms, and downshift while going downhill. It will last if you dont abuse it and break it in.

The wiring is not that hard, I never did wiring before, and I did mine in a few hours. It was ugly as hell at first, but now it is pretty nice. Once you get it in you will see what you need to do. Be sure to make all your coneections tight and then quadruple check them and over secure them. I have taken apart my finished wiring harness many times to hunt down a wire that has come aloose. I ahve since went through my entire harness and redo all the connections. Also make sure you keep them far away from the exhaust and the pulleys.

You will have to get a chip done if you use the five speed, and also to change the VSS signal. I also had Darth delete the EGR, and raise the Rev limit a bit.

The most expensive part to me would be the exhaust. Price will vary considerably on how you decide to route it.

So just to get it in and running use the basic stuff, and upgrade as you go along. I just would not really recommend using a stock clutch because the spec is so much better.

I think It can be done for around 1500. But that really depends on the cost of the engine.

[This message has been edited by XzotikGT (edited 10-06-2005).]

Again people i have an AUTOMATIC TRANSMITION. there are so much of you talking about sticks- that is great but i have an auto. i just found out i looked wrong it is a 3 speed auto 1 2 and drive. i double checked i glanced too quick for the speed of the tranny. i double checked everything on the car recently and that was the only thing i missed.

So once again i have had only one reply in relation to the tranny question - will the stock tranny in teh fiero i have (v6 auto 3 speed of 1986 with 118,000 miles in it) hold up to 280hp out of a 3.4 dohc.

Also again what is ment by a dog bone setup?

ANd i am just making sure - but you are saying that i need to use an exhaust manifold from the left to for the right side (looking at it with the distributor in the front )

Oh yeah there is a junk yard in MN called U PULL - if you pull ou tthe engine yourself you get it for 150 bucks SO i am going ot call them to see if they have any 3.4 dohc s laying around (oh and is the cover going to say 3.4 dohc???? so i am sure that it is the dohc not the pushrod?)

[This message has been edited by vega (edited 10-07-2005).]

IMO putting the 3.4 behind the junk 3speed auto is a waste of time.. you would have to burn the chip for the computer as a manual trans since the 3speed is not computer controlled.. the gear ratios suck, and it'll harm your milage

if you want to stay auto - then buy the engine and tranny as a package so you can have the better 4speed auto

Ok will do-

How difficult and or what is the process of the 4 speed auto hooked up to the 3.4 dohc to put in my fiero?

Also they detuned it from the factor for a reason... do you think that - that auto will hold up to the orginal 280hp? I mean gm detuned the thing because THEY thought it would not hold up... right?

ANd the exhaust other than the manifold question is no prob i have a friend who does exhaust and he is freakin great at figureing out weird crap like that.

as for the dog bone setup i am still not sure what is meant by that....

pretty much everyone has come up with a different dogbone setup that they are happy with..

the tranny should hold up ok - but almost any of the autos would need some performance upgrades to last if you plan to drag it a lot

The dog bone is the thing that is on the right side of the engine on top. It stops the alot of the engine rocking back and forth as you get on the gas, slam on the brakes. basically it keeps the engine still.

You will have to come up with one, because the 3.4 is not really compatible with the stock Fiero setup. Although you might be able to make one work in the stock location.

I have to agree, the stock Fiero 3 speed would SUCK behind the DOHC. But I dont know if it would hold up to the power.

is there anyone one that sells a dog bone?

if not how might i make one?
also the fiero curently needs a battery it now has a dura start (model 75-1) do you guys have a recomendation for batteries? also the negative (i am asking this becuase of the brain fart i am curently having) is the black or the red wire?

ok can i have been looking at rodney dickman'sstuff- i may just get all of his stuff!

Ok 1. will this work for the dog bone for the 3.4 dohc conversion?
http://www.rodneydickman.com/adjustabledogbone.html

2. are these the motor mounts you were speaking of?
http://www.rodneydickman.com/polymotormounts.html

3. If i use these tranny mounts will they work with the 4 speed auto tranny that came with the cars that already had the 3.4 dohc? (example: 92 cutlass supreme)
http://www.rodneydickman.com/PolyMounts.html

if these will not work how do i go about mounting that tranny?

4. is there any need for me to get any of these? (well not need but may i want to get them?)
http://www.rodneydickman.com/n101.html

as for the manifold can some one make that more clear for me? i mean am i supposed to us eht oposite manifold on the right side for clearance of the exahaust or what is going on here pleas eexplaint eh manifold thing more if possible...

"also when you put a front exhaust manifold on the rear the ports do not line up correctly. it will bolt up though."

is there a better way of doing this?

[This message has been edited by vega (edited 10-08-2005).]

quote Originally posted by vega: Also they detuned it from the factor for a reason... do you think that - that auto will hold up to the orginal 280hp? I mean gm detuned the thing because THEY thought it would not hold up... right? ANd the exhaust other than the manifold question is no prob i have a friend who does exhaust and he is freakin great at figureing out weird crap like that. as for the dog bone setup i am still not sure what is meant by that....

The reason the engine was detuned was so that a Lumina wasn't beating their Corvette. It wasn't because of the tranny. GM could have built a tranny, it isn't like they don't have the resources. But 280hp in a Lumina is too much, it'd be owning their 5.7 IROCs, and it'd be running side by side the Vettes. This cannot be, it'd be economical suicide.

Lastly, don't worry about getting 280hp, worry about getting the 200 its got factory first. What I mean is, don't modify it right now, do the swap as it is stock, work the bugs out, make sure the mtoor runs good and works fine, them mod it. Also, it isn't like plug a chip in and get 280hp. You will have to do quite a bit of bolt on modding, and then tune it, to get 280. But is is very possible, and has been done before.

The factory DOHC exhaust collects the front bank into a log manifold, then has a crossover run over the trannsmission towards the back of the car. The rear manifold is similiar, but has an opening for the front crossover to meet. So the rear manifold includes a Y. From here the single outlet heads to a downward angle. On a Fiero, this will be right at the trunk, but will still clear. So if you do it this way, you will need to build an exhaust that hooks up, fits a muffler, then exits. It is pretty tight back there, but can and has been done. This is the route I'll be going until I build the headers.

The DOHC has the rare ability to be able to use front manifolds on the back bank. Just flip it over, and it'll bolt right up. The ports don't match exactly, but they are close enough to not have any power losses. So if you do this, then you can build a crossover, or modify the factory one, and have the exhaust route much like the stock 2p8 Fiero's, where the 2 banks collect over the tranny, then head toward the front of the car and down.

Once you get the manifolds on and decided which route to go, any exhaust shop can do the work from there if you don't have access to a welder.

This is the only pic I have that will help you. On the left is the factory front manifold, and on the right is the rear.

As for your trannsmission. I would not use your current 3 speed. Its gear ratios SUCK, especially for the DOHC. It will be much slower than a 5-speed, and much less fun to drive. Also, it is questionable that it will hold up to the stock 200hp. 200hp isn't that much, but you will also be shifting at very high RPM, which is even ahrder for a tranny. If anything, use a 4-speed. I would suggest using a 4T60e from the stock 3.4 W-body. This unit can be rebuilt with stronger components, like a shift kit, and a updated torqe converter. But you will need to make your own tranny mounts in order for it to work, and from the sounds of it, I don't know if you are able to do that.

I hope I've helped you, feel free to ask anything you want, I'd like to think I'm pretty knowledgeable with the 3.4.

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"What would you do if I came over to your bedroom every morning, stuch a vacuum hose on your wife's nipple, and turned the Hoover on? Huh? Huh?"

<bump>

For the battery question- (i am getting the car home sunday and it needs a battery to do this so yeah....)

for the rodney dickman quesions

4. is there any need for me to get any of these? (well not need but may i want to get them?)
http://www.rodneydickman.com/n101.html

2. are these the motor mounts you were speaking of?
http://www.rodneydickman.com/polymotormounts.html

also i am going to use hte auto 4 speed out of the cutlass supreme... I am not a big fan of manuals. and i am sure there is at least one guy ou there doing the auto trannys that they came with- which btw what are they called (ie we have the 4t60e)BUT if i use the 4t60e as you have recomended will it bolt up with those dickman tranny mounts?

[This message has been edited by vega (edited 10-08-2005).]

i have a crate engine on a stand and a brand new exhaust gasket so believe me when i say i have a good view of what i'm talking about. the gasket is significantly bigger than the exhaust ports on the head and the manifold, yet when i flip the gasket over it blocks about 1/8 inch on the top of the exhaust port. i don't have x-ray vision but logically this tells me that the manifold blocks it even more since it has smaller holes than the gasket. i'm sure you can grind enough material away to fix the problem, i just wanted to make sure you know in advance.

Whatever dogbone you get, you still have to build a bracket that will connect it to the motor somehow.. and if you can do that, you can probably make your own dogbone, or something easier like what Kohburn or I built. Anyway, my point is, that dogbone from Rodney really isn't going to help.

I chose to use a swaybar endlink because it's adjustable and very small in size. It's easy to install because it is tightened lengthwise, solving the problem Rodney's dogbone was also designed to solve (lack of engine movement with stiff mounts).

quote Originally posted by vega: 4. is there any need for me to get any of these? (well not need but may i want to get them?) http://www.rodneydickman.com/n101.html

No, those have nothing to do with this swap. That's for the 3.4 OHV motor.

[This message has been edited by Steven Snyder (edited 10-08-2005).]

the starter relocation kit is for the pushrod 3.4L ..the one in pontiac montanas umm buicks (newer cars) ..umm but heres a thread that i first looked at by darth ..he knows his stuff. ..he did a swap for someone and ya ..10 pgs in the archives ...alot of info ..and stuff he did and taht plan to do to make my 3.4 fit in my car ..and umm since people say its better to put on 2 front exhaust manifolds so the engine fits better umm if bought headers for the 3.4 dohc i wouldn't have to buy 2 front headers ..or waht ?? ...umm another question and sorry to steal the thread from ya ..but umm would it be better to buy headers or get the existing exhaust manifolds ported ..and how would i go about making the gaskets fit for it too ..thanks i have more questions too ..so i'll be back too lol ..and umm i'm suprised at how many people have 3.4dohc and well how many people want to put them in there fieros ..well heres the thread ..i have a few more but i have to organize my favorites list first

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20050818-2-047231.html

thanks for the answers
matt and good luck

don't have much swap info but i have engine info for a swap. good 3.4 dohc(lq1) are increasingly harder to find. i am speaking from experience here, do not trust any engine you can score for 3-600 bones. if you plan on doing it either get a low-mileage engine still in a car or a crate motor.

other than that score a cheapie and do a rebuild. which isn't cheap either since you have to kind of piece meal it. b/c i could not find any master kits or anything. based on my rebuild this is what i have for you so far.

crank kit(comes with main and rod bearings) $223
pistons and rings(1mm over for me) $230 or $260 if your stockers are good i think the rings were 80
oilpump instead of a new one i paid the machiist 70 bux to go through the existing one
balance shaft bearings $23
gaskets-can't really give an accurate number here b/c i had alot of them laying around already. approximately $200
timing belt assy again i am re-using mine b/c it is in really good shape approximately $150
waterpump-haven't bought one yet
timing chain set- reusing stock gears b/c the kit i bought, the gears did not match the stockers but it was about 100 bux
rods....50/50 on this, if they can be reused probably not much or 75 to recondition them
cams??? actually i have never seen them with errors so ???
heads about $45 to have them checked
labor for me it is $500 but i am doing overboring, balancing, and a couple other things so approximately $300-$350

think that is it

[This message has been edited by dohcfiend (edited 10-09-2005).]

I purchased a 600 parts car with 86000 on the clock that was in a rollover. The engine runs perfect (well other than me needing to change the timing belt 10000 miles after the swap because it was changed without changing the idler pullies at the same time by the previous owner) and has for over a year now with me beating the hell out of it. I noticed that no one said anything about the belt needing to be changed every 60 K miles. I would recommend doing it sooner than that. Also when you change it, for gods sake change the idler pullies, tensioner, and tensioner actuator all at the same time, it may be draining on the checkbook but at least your buying extra insurance. Now, I'm going to be blunt, the 3.4 DOHC is a waste behind an auto. If you want to be making 280 hp, your probalbly going to be looking at pulling some higher rpms with the DOHC motor. The autos redline is 6500 rpms compared to the manuls stock 7000 or modded 7200 rpms like I'm redlining at. Thats about as much as you will be able to use with stock lifters because of valve float after those rpms, but let me tell you that every little bit of rpms useable with a DOHC is worth it. In short, i doubt the stock auto would hold up to 280 hp and since it is not electronically controlled it may be a pain in the butt to get to work right with the DOHC. Also, i dont know what it takes to put a 4t60E into a fiero with this engine, but it probalbly requires a bit of fabrication. When you go to the junk yard to look you should be able to tell the difference between the pushrod and the dohc just by the massive heads on it. I'll post pictures with the pushrod engine and the DOHC engine in the same shot so hopefully you can see the difference in size. Heres a link to my build thread, in case you would like to see what i did for a dogbone and it also has parts sources in it for you.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20050818-2-052017.html

-Jeff

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--180* t-stat, 1.5 degree intake cam advance and 5 degree exhaust cam retard, ported lower intake, FFP pulley, A/C Idler, complete custom flowmaster exhaust, EGR delete, K&N filter, custom chip--

[This message has been edited by fieromadman (edited 10-10-2005).]

quote Originally posted by fieromadman: I would recommend doing it sooner than that. Also when you change it, for gods sake change the idler pullies, tensioner, and tensioner actuator all at the same time, it may be draining on the checkbook but at least your buying extra insurance. Now, I'm going to be blunt, the 3.4 DOHC is a waste behind an auto. If you want to be making 280 hp, your probalbly going to be looking at pulling some higher rpms with the DOHC motor. The autos redline is 6500 rpms compared to the manuls stock 7000 or modded 7200 rpms like I'm redlining at. Thats about as much as you will be able to use with stock lifters because of valve float after those rpms, but let me tell you that every little bit of rpms useable with a DOHC is worth it.

The timing belt does not need to be changed earlier than 60,000 miles. So long as when you do it you change all the idlers and tensioner, it will be good for 60k, and if you want to test it, I've seen them last to double that. 60k is more than safe so long as it is periodically checked and not subject to abnormal wear (ie weathering).

The 3.4 automatic is in no way, shape, form, or stretch of the imagination a waste of time. It still has the same 200-215hp your 3.4 does. In addition, it has perfect shift points from the factory, where you are shifting way too high with a 5-speed. The automatics redline is the same 7000 redline that every DOHC had, the difference is that its shift points are at ~6500rpm, which after dyno research, is perfect for maximum acceleration through each gear. But they can be changed if one wishes. You're are actually running past redline, and the absolute max is 7150 before fuel cut, and there is a large amount of ECU mods to get it to turn over 7150. In short, the 3.4 is actually really enjoyable behind an automatic. It is silky smooth, easy to drive, has plenty of torque, and when you need the 220hp, just press it to the fllor, the car will find the right gear, and you'll be set. The 5-speed will be a bit faster, but the autos are still nice drivers, and have plenty of power.

You are actually slowing your acceleration down by holding the gears past 6500rpm. If you havn't seen a 3.4 dyno, it is very rare to get them to pull to 7, and the stockers fall flat on their face after 6000. The optimum shift poitns with virtually any tranny are at about 6500rpm. Running past this is not only useless, it is dangerous, especially on used motors of whose service records don't include a full load of Mobil 1. If you really are tapping the rev limiter on every shift, I hope to God you are running synthetic.

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"What would you do if I came over to your bedroom every morning, stuch a vacuum hose on your wife's nipple, and turned the Hoover on? Huh? Huh?"

[This message has been edited by AaronZ34 (edited 10-10-2005).]

quote Originally posted by AaronZ34: The timing belt does not need to be changed earlier than 60,000 miles. So long as when you do it you change all the idlers and tensioner, it will be good for 60k, and if you want to test it, I've seen them last to double that. 60k is more than safe so long as it is periodically checked and not subject to abnormal wear (ie weathering). The 3.4 automatic is in no way, shape, form, or stretch of the imagination a waste of time. It still has the same 200-215hp your 3.4 does. In addition, it has perfect shift points from the factory, where you are shifting way too high with a 5-speed. The automatics redline is the same 7000 redline that every DOHC had, the difference is that its shift points are at ~6500rpm, which after dyno research, is perfect for maximum acceleration through each gear. But they can be changed if one wishes. You're are actually running past redline, and the absolute max is 7150 before fuel cut, and there is a large amount of ECU mods to get it to turn over 7150. In short, the 3.4 is actually really enjoyable behind an automatic. It is silky smooth, easy to drive, has plenty of torque, and when you need the 220hp, just press it to the fllor, the car will find the right gear, and you'll be set. The 5-speed will be a bit faster, but the autos are still nice drivers, and have plenty of power. You are actually slowing your acceleration down by holding the gears past 6500rpm. If you havn't seen a 3.4 dyno, it is very rare to get them to pull to 7, and the stockers fall flat on their face after 6000. The optimum shift poitns with virtually any tranny are at about 6500rpm. Running past this is not only useless, it is dangerous, especially on used motors of whose service records don't include a full load of Mobil 1. If you really are tapping the rev limiter on every shift, I hope to God you are running synthetic.

Aaron, in several places you contradict yourself with your post above.
First off, even without the tranny behind the engine, the auto chips still have a rev limiter at 6500 so it's not the tranny that controls that. Where as the manual chips have the limiter at 7. Fieromadman's car used to run with a stock auto chip and the limiter came in at 6500 until Darth tweaked it for him and now it's at 7200. Not to mention a little more power from Darths tweaking as well. For the original poster of this thread: I highly recomend Darth for your chip/computer needs.
You state that the engine falls flat after 6k but then you say 6500 is optimal. If it falls flat after 6k then, logically, you'd shift at 6.
Also, if you actually paid attention and thought about your post before hitting reply for just one time, you might have noticed that Fieromadman has some mods which do pull higher up in the rpm band.
You also state that the auto is perfect and yet then state that the stick is faster. Another contradiction. If the auto is so great then how is the stick faster?
The auto is just a horrible thing to put behind the TDC engine. That engine is so versatile that you really cant experience it with an auto like you can with the manual. That's obviously an opinion but, performance wise, the stick is clearly better, which you yourself have even said above, so saying that the auto is perfect is just completely ignorant. Now, if you dont like sticks and you just want a cruiser, then i can see saying that it's the better trans for you BUT saying it's better is nonsense. I think, after reading many of your posts here and on 60 degree, you simplely dont know how to shift well and that's why you're always pushing the auto.
I have driven his car many times myself and It's certainly NOT slowing it down by holding the shifts higher than 6500. His car is still pulling up there nicely in fact.

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Also, don't expect to put in a chip by Darth, a short high flow exhaust, bigger pistons, and expect 280 HP, it's not going to happen.

http://fiero.cc/fiero-tdc/members/mws/intake/index.html

This guy had equal length TUNED headers, a wildly modified intake manifold for maxed out top end power, dyno tuned the cam overlap and timing to perfection, and just baaareely made it. Breathing is really what'll do it here. I suspect a set of bumpy cams would really light this engine up as well if your port flow, intake, and exhaust can handle it. Then you have to consider how many RPM you can rev the bottom end to before it decides to get pissed and blow up on you. There's that lovely steel crank from the 3500, but the stock rods won't fit as big ends will hit the block. The reluctor wheel on the crank is also the incorrect type. Some creative machining may solve these problems, but it looks like an expensive and exotic solution at the moment. Anyways, if you want 280+ HP, just know what's involved, as bolt ons aren't going to do it.

[Edit]: To remind Aaron that the auto behind the Z34 DOES suck. Almost every single car I see at the junkyard has a "GM Goodwrench" rebuilt tranny in it. It was too much power for a tranny that wasn't ready for it. I don't know if the problem was as bad as the Ford Taurus blowing up transmissions, but it seems pretty excessive. If they had a 4T65 at the time, that would have been nice...

[This message has been edited by Blue Shift (edited 10-10-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Dave Gunsul: Aaron, in several places you contradict yourself with your post above. First off, even without the tranny behind the engine, the auto chips still have a rev limiter at 6500 so it's not the tranny that controls that. Where as the manual chips have the limiter at 7. Fieromadman's car used to run with a stock auto chip and the limiter came in at 6500 until Darth tweaked it for him and now it's at 7200. Not to mention a little more power from Darths tweaking as well. For the original poster of this thread: I highly recomend Darth for your chip/computer needs. You state that the engine falls flat after 6k but then you say 6500 is optimal. If it falls flat after 6k then, logically, you'd shift at 6. Also, if you actually paid attention and thought about your post before hitting reply for just one time, you might have noticed that Fieromadman has some mods which do pull higher up in the rpm band. You also state that the auto is perfect and yet then state that the stick is faster. Another contradiction. If the auto is so great then how is the stick faster? The auto is just a horrible thing to put behind the TDC engine. That engine is so versatile that you really cant experience it with an auto like you can with the manual. That's obviously an opinion but, performance wise, the stick is clearly better, which you yourself have even said above, so saying that the auto is perfect is just completely ignorant. Now, if you dont like sticks and you just want a cruiser, then i can see saying that it's the better trans for you BUT saying it's better is nonsense. I think, after reading many of your posts here and on 60 degree, you simplely dont know how to shift well and that's why you're always pushing the auto. I have driven his car many times myself and It's certainly NOT slowing it down by holding the shifts higher than 6500. His car is still pulling up there nicely in fact.

You missinterpreted most of what I said.

I was unaware that the automatics still had a rev limiter at 6500. But if you read what I said, I never said anything about the automatic's rev limiter, I just said they were set to shift at 6500, but their redline was 7000, and that is correct.

Darth tweaked it to 7150, I doubt Darth would spend the time needed to get the rev limiter on the OBD1 past 7150, it requires recoding the entire RPM tables. I also reccomend Darth, and look forward to using him for my tunign needs on both my Fiero and Turbo Z34.

The stock 3.4, and most modded 3.4s, drop power hard after 6k. They max around 5500, drop a little to 6, then it goes down fast. But that doesn't mean the best shift point is at 6. At 6500rpm it is still making more power than it would be at 3500 (~RPM point in next gear if you shift from 6). I'm just saying it isn't making a lot of power, but it is still making more than it would be had you shifted at 6k. Trust me, I have poured over every gear ratio option available with a 3.4, and dyno sheets from Modded, stock, auto, and stickshift 3.4s. I have never had an optimum shift point be below 6200, or above 6700. Most are at 6400-6500, where the power at this point matches the power you'd be making at the RPM you'd be at in the next gear.

Fieromadman has ONE mod that helps high end, not multiple. He has cam timing, and it is very timid timing at that. Certainly not enough to overcome the camshafts, heads, and intake manifolds that were all made to optimize mid range punch. Trust me, I've built a 3.4 with tuned equal length headers, optimized for 4500-7500 rpm, the 96 intake swap (Shorter runners by about 4-5 inches, and nearly double the plenum volume), a custom chip by Ben, and every bolt on available and it still fell flat on its face after 6500, with no change at where max power occured. It made max power at 5300, it picked up at 3500 just like a stock 3.4, declined from 5500-6500, then fell hard to 7k. Quite simply put, there is no way you are going to dramatically alter the car's power curve without changing the cams, heads, and intake manifolds. And a 5* cam retard isn't going to move your power curve 1000rpm.

I stated the auto trannsmission has perfect shift points, I never said it was perfect for racing. It is far from it. The stall speed is low, its gear spreads are too wide, its weak, and it loses shift quality fast after 50,000 miles. But the set 6500rpm shift points are perfect, they are at nearly the exact time when the motor is making the same hp at 6500rpm, as it would be into the next gear. The 5-speed obviously has much more performance potential than the stock auto, the gears are closer, the dynoes show 10whp more, and they are strong. But the auto is a decent tranny for everyday driving with the occasional WOT run.

I could care less about your ass-dyno. It sucks, trust me. I thought for sure my car pulled right to 7, and past it. I would go to the track, and I'd shift at the limiter. Yet after being on the dyno, I was wrong. My 3.4 fell hard after 6500, like most every 3.4, and the optimum shift points were at 6500.

And why do you think I can't shift well? Watch tthese videos, of me beating, then getting beat by, a Talon TSi. Let me know what is wrong with my shifting. My shifts are fast as hell, and accurate, the last time I missed a gear in a 284 was over 3 years ago. I'll openly admit I'm not very good with the 282 yet, but trust me, I doubt there are very many people that can outdrive a 3.4 5-speed W-body. I've raced this car to the edge thousands of time, run it through a 1/4mi over 50 times, and pulled hard street launches about twice a day, EVERY DAY, followed by hitting the next gear at redline.

http://www.mfmllc.com/kenny/MOV00001.MPG

http://www.mfmllc.com/kenny/MOV00002.MPG

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"What would you do if I came over to your bedroom every morning, stuch a vacuum hose on your wife's nipple, and turned the Hoover on? Huh? Huh?"