Aaron, you're really ignoant and it always shows when you post. Ive tried to be nice when answering you but, seriously, your advice is really damaging to people who might not know that you're talking out your rear end. You've been banned over at 60 degree dot com and called a moron by everyone in the know over there so many times i've lost count! You keep saying trust me over and over again in you post above. That's about the worst advice you've given yet.
You backpedaled everything you said in your original post with a bunch of nonsense and you don't even look at what you're talking about reguarding Fieromadmans cam timing. Read his list more carefully my A.D.D. friend. Im sure he'll explain it in more detail but he does in fact have 13 degree retard. Your so called tests on your car have no cam timing. The cam timing effects top end quite a bit not to mention his custom exhaust. Your so called "tuned headers" leak like nobodies business. It's well documented over on 60 degree how your headers leak like a screen door on a submarine. He also has a ported intake too BTW.
You also state how you know sooooo much about the TDC and yet you don't even know something as basic as the fact that the auto chips have a rev limiter set at 6500 in them! Seriously, do you read what you write?
I'm not even going to get into your shifting.

quote Originally posted by Dave Gunsul: Im sure he'll explain it in more detail but he does in fact have 13 degree retard. Your so called tests on your car have no cam timing. The cam timing effects top end quite a bit not to mention his custom exhaust. Your so called "tuned headers" leak like nobodies business. It's well documented over on 60 degree how your headers leak like a screen door on a submarine. He also has a ported intake too BTW. You also state how you know sooooo much about the TDC and yet you don't even know something as basic as the fact that the auto chips have a rev limiter set at 6500 in them! Seriously, do you read what you write? I'm not even going to get into your shifting.

His list says 5 on exhaust, 1.5 advance on intake. Maybe I suck at English, but 5 doesn't equal 13.

And you have no proof cam timing will move the power curve of the car up by 1000rpm. I'll agree it helps high end, but it isn't going to change the power curve that much.

I'm glad you know my headers leak without ever so much as seeing them in person, hearing them, touching them, or anything. And for your info, they don't leak. Never have. I had 2-3 pinholes that leaked when I finished them, and those were tacked in a few days later. I bet there is still a tiny hole or two that barely leaks, this is unavoidalbe, but this will ahve absolutely no effect on the car. You must be thinking Milzy's headers, he is the one that has had endless problems with them leaking.

A ported intake doesn't do **** on the 3.4, I ported my 91-95s myself, didn't help a bit, and I polished the 96s up a little, which also had no affect. And even if they did, they aren't going to alter a power curve. And if you read, you'd see his sig says ported lower intake. How is a ported lower going to help without a ported upper? And to address the fact the the biggest restriction in the 3.4 intake isn't in the lower, and isn't accessible by porting devices?

My apologies for not being an expert on a chip I have no interest in EVER using, for the trannsmission I have no interest in ever using, for the ECU I have little interest in ever using again.

Get into my shifting. Do it, you'll have both videos, and can judge from there.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20050818-2-060119.html i would just like to direct everyone to this topic where you can read all about how aaron admits that his headers leak. i find it most disturbing that you won't shut up about equal length headers yet it's ok to flip manifolds because it doesn't block that much? try and double talk your way out of that. and 6.5 cam degrees is 13 crank degrees smart guy.

[This message has been edited by joshua riedl (edited 10-10-2005).]

quote Originally posted by AaronZ34: And for your info, they don't leak. Never have. I had 2-3 pinholes that leaked when I finished them, and those were tacked in a few days later. I bet there is still a tiny hole or two that barely leaks, this is unavoidalbe, but this will ahve absolutely no effect on the car.

This has to be the best summary of Aaron I've seen yet.

...so they don't leak.. never did.. but they did when you finished them? And you bet there's still some holes that leak? But wait, they don't leak and never did?

He said 5 degree cam retard, not 5 crank degrees. What am I supposed to think? The typical way of stating it is in crank degrees, that's become the norm.

Yah, they leaked very minorly form a few pinholes. Big deal, it has since been fixed. I had a few pinholes, and they were filled. And about the warping I mentioned, about a week after that it got much worse, and I didn't know what it was. Low and behold I broke a primary off the bell at the flange, and that was the leak. At first I thought it was the flanges, as they warped bad, but we straightened them best we could. So I got to tear it all apart again, rewelded the $h!t outta that primary-bell connection, and put it together. As of right now, far as I know, they are not leaking, when the buyer came up, I crawled underneath and tacked every pinhole I could find (2 or 3).

Performance isn't of the highest value when you're doing an engine swap. The 2 horsepower you're going to lose by flipping the manifolds isn't a big deal when it saves you a lot of time and money on the rest of the exhaust system. You're not installing the factory manifolds for performance.

But a person installing headers isn't doing it to make the swap easier or to get the swap done, they are doing it for performance. BIG DIFFERENCE. If I'm making performance headers, yes fit comes first, but I will get them equal length. There is no sense in building them otherwise, unless you physically can't fit them, or are running a turbocharged application.

I'm surprised you can call them pin-hole filled considering you havn't been within 500 miles of the car, let alone the headers. Me, I thoroughly inspected them once a week for about an hour and a half for over a year's time. Yes there were a few pin holes, I counted 9 right before I sold it, out of the 52 welds I made. And they were going to be fixed, but the welding would take off the ceramic coating, and I'd rather have them leak a minute amount than to rust out in a year. And they are perfectly tuned, for a 6800rpm power max. Unfortunately, no other component of my car was tuned at 6800rpm. And no, they aren't killing my top end. The air they flow is, becuz the chip isn't even remotely tuned for them, the ECU can't figure out why the **** the exhaust gets out so fast, and can't register it going pig rich at 6000+ rpm.https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/063759-2.html guess who wrote that?

Josh, can I have the first guess?? Aaron?!

Aaron, when we did the cam timing on my car we used kohburns tool on it. The tool is in cam degrees therefore i have been talking in cam degrees since thats what we thinking in when we did it. If you do the math advancing the intake cam 1.5 degrees is like advancing it 3 crank degrees and then retarding the exhaust cam 5 cam degrees is like retarding it 10 crank degrees. If you combine them thats 13* of overlap for the equivelant of the 13* cam timing except with advancing the intake cam i was hoping to loose less low end, and guess what, it worked out great. I gained top end and noticed if anything a slightly stronger, and if not stronger then equal but more responsive low end as well.

As for saying that my car doesnt pull past 6k, I'm sure you'd know because you're the expert (have you even rode in a fiero with the tdc yet?). Ported lower intake, cam timing, idler pullies for power steering and a/c, underdrive pulley, and a full custom true equal diameter mandrel bent exhaust sure changed my top end problems, although not as much as I wanted I'll admit, but more intake work can be done. Besides that Darth has personally rode in my car to tune it. He found a need to advance the ignition greatly after 6k. That sure helped out too. Oh and while were on the subject of tuning, I was there personally when he asked me where i wanted the rev limiter and I asked how far up it could go and he showed me (on the computer screen) that at least with the 94-95 chips he could adjust all the way to like 60000 rpms. My car does in fact have its rev limiter at 7200 rpms, not 7150 like the earlier ecms limit is (at least according to Ben). By the way, I have hit rev limiter racing people (not all the time obviously) because my car does pull strong up high, I doesnt seem like its always time to shift there especially in first and second.

Look man, you seem to contradict yourself with everything that you say, whether it be about autos, chips, the engine building power past a certain rpm, or your headers. I wish you would think about whether you really know what your talking about or not in regaurds to the subject that your replying to. I mean come on, autos are prooven to be slower than manuals and yet you say that they work fine. Yeah they might work fine for crusin around town but considering how this guy wants to be making 280 WHP I dont think that the weak (and slower auto) would suit his application very well. Aside from being weak it would appear that he wants to go fast, at least warn him of the potential difference in performance between an auto and a manual. I mean you eventually brought it up but not before being flammed for saying that autos are "perfect" with the TDC. Maybe you should think about that one a little harder. Also like with posting about my cam timing not being agressive, maybe you should have thought about it/ looked a little closer it would have saved you some embarassment and maybe made you look smarter if you would have said well yeah he has the 13* overlap be he moved where the overlap was so maybe his high end isnt as good, which is wrong, but at least people could see your reasoning rather than just seeing you as ignorant or stupid. Im done talking about your crap though, just think a bit before posting please.

Josh, I'm not sure that the manifold thing is necessarily right, I should pull off my back side manifold and see if I can see any exhaust buildup on it where it shouldnt be but when i lined up the gaskets for it it seemed to fit right. I could be wrong, like i said, i'll have to look at it when i get the opportunity. Besides it wouldnt be a bad idea to get apart my slip on connection in the exhaust before it gets stuck together.

Oh and BTW Aaron, i've been in the car with Dave and he's very quick with shifting so i wouldn't argue with him about who's fast at shifting.

At any rate, it would appear that this tread is a huge flame war now but there is some good information that has come afloat in it still.

-Jeff

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--180* t-stat, 1.5 degree intake cam advance and 5 degree exhaust cam retard, ported lower intake, FFP pulley, A/C Idler, complete custom flowmaster exhaust, EGR delete, K&N filter, custom chip--

[This message has been edited by fieromadman (edited 10-11-2005).]

I have a 96 with the early computer, and I had my rev set to 7250. I have a digital tach, and I have seen the rpms go all the way to 7250. The way the DOHC feels in the Fiero has to be way different than it does in a Z34. Every time I drive my car, I just think on how slow the bigger car is stock. Here, Fiero needs like 250-275 to get into the 12's.....I think one guy over @ 60 degree hit 14's with that power. Most get into the 15's. This engine seems sutied for the sports car, and the 3.8 seems like it should have been used in the heavier car because of the torque.

nevermind.

[This message has been edited by joshua riedl (edited 10-11-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Dave Gunsul: leak like a screen door on a submarine. .

LOL, never heard that one

You guys are wasting your time talking with Aaron. You'll never get through.

quote Originally posted by joshua riedl: I'm surprised you can call them pin-hole filled considering you havn't been within 500 miles of the car, let alone the headers. Me, I thoroughly inspected them once a week for about an hour and a half for over a year's time. Yes there were a few pin holes, I counted 9 right before I sold it, out of the 52 welds I made. And they were going to be fixed, but the welding would take off the ceramic coating, and I'd rather have them leak a minute amount than to rust out in a year. And they are perfectly tuned, for a 6800rpm power max. Unfortunately, no other component of my car was tuned at 6800rpm. And no, they aren't killing my top end. The air they flow is, becuz the chip isn't even remotely tuned for them, the ECU can't figure out why the **** the exhaust gets out so fast, and can't register it going pig rich at 6000+ rpm.https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/063759-2.html guess who wrote that?

I didn't write that last night, I sold the car almost a year ago now, and have been in CO plenty since the sale contract was made.

I ended up welding them, despite it possibly hurting the coating. No one had asked, and I had no reason to make a post about me tacking in some pinholes.

Fieromadman, I understand the cam timing, but I hope you see where I was coming from, as they are in crank degrees most of the time.

It doesn't matter if I've ridden in a 3.4 Fiero, the engine isn't going to dyno any different (Besides exhaust/PS delete). I was assuming you were using a 91-93 ECU, the 94+ rev limiter can be set anywhere.

There is a 3.4l DOHC making 260+ whp through a 4T60e, they can handle the power if rebuilt with decent parts. Stock, no, but I didn't say they could. I did warn him about the perfomance difference. I didn't bring it up right away cuz he didn't ask. I NEVER ****ING SAID THE AUTOS ARE PERFECT WITH THE DOHC, I said their shift points are, and they are.

Aaron, you've already made yourself look stupid and no ammount of backpedaling is going to save you there. Had you payed attention to Fieromadman, you might have saved some embarassment over the retard issue but, as usual, you posted without thinking and now you're trying to save face with a pretty weak excuse. You claim to be such a big expert on the TDC and yet you make a huge mistake like that and obviously have no idea about the chip that runs the whole thing either. Yet later on you talk about tuning like you know what you're talking about. How can you tune without knowing such a basic thing? That's a retorical question BTW.
That car you refer to over and over agian was picked apart by Ben over at 60 degree when he had to fix the thing so i dont see how or why you talk about it like it's the best Z34 ever. Over and over I see you spout off about your vast knowledge on the TDC, amongst many other things, and yet you are shot down by people who have actually worked on them and gotten real results like Ben. You haven't even done cam timing on your own car which is one of the biggest mods available for the engine.Hell, you havent even experienced the timing on that engine firsthand for that matter.
You even sit there and argue with a guy about his own car and end up looking like an idiot and still go on even after that fiasco. Accept the fact that you're not the God of all that is TDC already and maybe even try and sit back and learn something once and a while. I know that's wasted breath on you but at least I tried.

Aaron Fieros are much lighter with shorter gearing, especially first. With first gear it is quite beneficial to rev it out higher. Besides that at any given time the fiero pulls way harder than a w-body because of the lack of weight. I wont argue that with stock powerband reving the piss out of it is worth anything because you are just wasting your time going over 6500, but mine is not stock, and since you have not done cam timing i dont think that you are at liberty to comment.

Forgot to say, autos may have "perfect" shift points at WOT but what about cruising around, does it ever seem reluctant to downshift or upshift? I have NEVER ridden in an auto that satisfied me with always being in the right gear. You give it so much thorottle and it hunkers down in that gear and tries to use torque to push it, but thats not wat you want, you want the next gear up. Simple fact, autos are not controlled by you therefore they are not always in the perfect gear for what you want and therefore they DONT have perfect shift points. They cant read minds therefore they dont know what gear you want to be in to satisfy what you want.

[This message has been edited by fieromadman (edited 10-11-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Dave Gunsul: Aaron, you've already made yourself look stupid and no ammount of backpedaling is going to save you there. Had you payed attention to Fieromadman, you might have saved some embarassment over the retard issue but, as usual, you posted without thinking and now you're trying to save face with a pretty weak excuse. You claim to be such a big expert on the TDC and yet you make a huge mistake like that and obviously have no idea about the chip that runs the whole thing either. Yet later on you talk about tuning like you know what you're talking about. How can you tune without knowing such a basic thing? That's a retorical question BTW. That car you refer to over and over agian was picked apart by Ben over at 60 degree when he had to fix the thing so i dont see how or why you talk about it like it's the best Z34 ever. Over and over I see you spout off about your vast knowledge on the TDC, amongst many other things, and yet you are shot down by people who have actually worked on them and gotten real results like Ben. You haven't even done cam timing on your own car which is one of the biggest mods available for the engine.Hell, you havent even experienced the timing on that engine firsthand for that matter. You even sit there and argue with a guy about his own car and end up looking like an idiot and still go on even after that fiasco. Accept the fact that you're not the God of all that is TDC already and maybe even try and sit back and learn something once and a while. I know that's wasted breath on you but at least I tried.

And what did Ben have to say about the motor/headers? He said the headers were well designed, but could use some adjustments (Which was expected, but I wasn't about to build another set), and he said that the car was "DAMN fast." Yes there were some issues with it, but I don't proclaim it to be the best Z34. One of the strongest N/A, I believe so. I put down the 4th highest DOHC dyno to date that we know of.

I have experienced cam timing in a Z34. It was Michael's silver Z34, 218whp after tuning. Ran pretty good, but it still fell off after 6500 rpm.

Saved all the embarrassment? God dude, I assumed he was speaking in crank degrees like everyone else does. Big deal? Ok I was wrong, who cares?

I understand that fieromadman, I'm not gonna run through it, but I gauarantee on a stock motor the optimum shift points will be under 7000, probably around 6500 depending on how much different the gearing is. The wieght of the car has no effect, when you go into the next gear, you want to to be making the same amount of power as you were right before you shifted.

About the autos, I should clerify that they shift at the perfect rpm at WOT. I also dislike autos for the reasons you stated, but for some people, an auto is essential or preferred. I'm just trying to say that the engine isn't going to be any different. The car will be a bit slower, and not as fun to drive IMHO, but there isn't anything wrong with it. If you've never driven a stickshift in CA traffic, you may want to. IT SUCKS. In this case, if my Fiero was my daily driver, I'd want an auto. But I still want more power, in which case a 3.4 would be perfect. Some people like automatics...

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"What would you do if I came over to your bedroom every morning, stuch a vacuum hose on your wife's nipple, and turned the Hoover on? Huh? Huh?"

Maybe a little off, but Aaron......What mods did it take to get the silver z34 up to 218 horses?

Here's the link to the awesome Aaronmobile: http://60degreev6.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=6205&start=0

[This message has been edited by Dave Gunsul (edited 10-12-2005).]

quote Originally posted by XzotikGT: Maybe a little off, but Aaron......What mods did it take to get the silver z34 up to 218 horses?

A lot less than it took me to get my white Z34 to 218. We made nearly identical wheel horsepower numbers.

His mods:
Cam timing, 96 intake swap with custom intake arm, stock 64mm throttle body, UD pulley, full 2.5" exhaust, CAI, Magnecor plug wires, and custom tuning.

My mods:
96 intake swap with custom intake arm and LS1 75mm throttle body, UD pulley, tuned equal length headers, full 2.5" exhaust, 10:1 compression, Magnecor wires, CAI, and a chip that was WAYYYY out of tune. Also, an O2 sensor that wasn't working, and an IAT sensor that wasn't plugged in...

Looking at the A:F lines of the two car's dyno runs, it is obvious my car wouldn't have a problem walking all over his, if my car was tuned. Unfortunately, it still hasn't been tuned by the new owner.

------------------

"What would you do if I came over to your bedroom every morning, stuch a vacuum hose on your wife's nipple, and turned the Hoover on? Huh? Huh?"

As I've said before:

Quake Announcer Voice: "HUMILIATION!!"

aaron I can see that your high power vehical is a lumina......... I think it's cool looking at all the transport vans going down the road My daily driver is a 92 lumina, I think the dashboards look like crap and the car is a overall boat..... But I love my lumina it's a very nice daily driver. I can turn on the AC and go site seeing The wrap around spoiler looks mighty dumb on my lumina. The ignition coils and components are installed in the dumbest place on the car, The crank position sensor is in a even dumber place.

I think im going to start my own lumina club here in florida, The transport vans are most welcome and will become gold members.

Please pimp mi lumina master aaron.

ok back to the subject I think the wire harness will cost the most money in a 3.4 dohc engine in a fiero. Unless you can do it yourself, 3.4 dohc engines in florida cost around $500 bucks and up, But in my opinion I would rebuild it first before putting in a fiero, And make sure every freaking sensor is replaced as well. Actually the rebuild will be more but if you can do the wiring yourself, Aim into spending the money on a rebuild.

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4.9 under construction... To lay the smack down on any mid 80s truck that stands in my way.

[This message has been edited by 86fieroEarl (edited 10-12-2005).]

Aaron, do you have any pictures of the LS1 setup? Was it a plug and play setup? Did you have to modify the 96 Manifold?

My god i THOUGHT this was the only site that actually did not flame people. I don't knwo this aron guy but guys just email or pm the mod and have the guy banned if he is really feeding us BS. that is what we always do on everyforum i have EVER been on- there sometimes is a flame war but god just ban the guy if he is shitin me- i don't want to listin and think **** if that is what it is....

and as far as i can tell from reading more and more postage of you guys on here- the v8 will in the long run be JUST as expensive as the 3.4 because of the oddball parts- i am getting a 327 that is pushing 300hp at the dyno for 200 from a friend that is what is going in the fiero now.

There is a guy i know of in MN that has done hte norstar swap. He did it completely himself with no kit at all- he works at some tranny shop up here on bunker in andover- name is bob something. I think i should talk to him- all the guys i have talked to up here says HE IS THE GUY to talk to - i guess they had his car to flor at 140mph and the darn thing still wanted more. that sounds good to me. and i believe i am going ot go with a gt v6 5 speed. (what was the name of that tranny BTW- and did they but it on any other car that just he fiero?

quote Originally posted by vega: My god i THOUGHT this was the only site that actually did not flame people. I don't knwo this aron guy but guys just email or pm the mod and have the guy banned if he is really feeding us BS. that is what we always do on everyforum i have EVER been on- there sometimes is a flame war but god just ban the guy if he is shitin me- i don't want to listin and think **** if that is what it is.... and as far as i can tell from reading more and more postage of you guys on here- the v8 will in the long run be JUST as expensive as the 3.4 because of the oddball parts- i am getting a 327 that is pushing 300hp at the dyno for 200 from a friend that is what is going in the fiero now. There is a guy i know of in MN that has done hte norstar swap. He did it completely himself with no kit at all- he works at some tranny shop up here on bunker in andover- name is bob something. I think i should talk to him- all the guys i have talked to up here says HE IS THE GUY to talk to - i guess they had his car to flor at 140mph and the darn thing still wanted more. that sounds good to me. and i believe i am going ot go with a gt v6 5 speed. (what was the name of that tranny BTW- and did they but it on any other car that just he fiero?

this forum doesn't have moderators - your user rating is what gets you banned -
wanting more at 140 isn't a huge feat - the stock 3.4dohc is happy at 150 - a northstar should pull more
I can pretyt much guaranty that a v8 will be more expensive due to all the custom parts..

quote Originally posted by vega: My god i THOUGHT this was the only site that actually did not flame people. I don't knwo this aron guy but guys just email or pm the mod and have the guy banned if he is really feeding us BS. that is what we always do on everyforum i have EVER been on- there sometimes is a flame war but god just ban the guy if he is shitin me- i don't want to listin and think **** if that is what it is.... and as far as i can tell from reading more and more postage of you guys on here- the v8 will in the long run be JUST as expensive as the 3.4 because of the oddball parts- i am getting a 327 that is pushing 300hp at the dyno for 200 from a friend that is what is going in the fiero now. There is a guy i know of in MN that has done hte norstar swap. He did it completely himself with no kit at all- he works at some tranny shop up here on bunker in andover- name is bob something. I think i should talk to him- all the guys i have talked to up here says HE IS THE GUY to talk to - i guess they had his car to flor at 140mph and the darn thing still wanted more. that sounds good to me. and i believe i am going ot go with a gt v6 5 speed. (what was the name of that tranny BTW- and did they but it on any other car that just he fiero?

Any and all swaps could be more or less. Depends on what you do in your swaps. Basically you get what you pay for when doing a swap. Hence if a person cheaps out on a swap it could end up costing more then doing it right.

And the lumina bit was a joke I like luminas and would ride in them anytime, I just personally think they make better daily drivers .

[This message has been edited by 86fieroEarl (edited 10-12-2005).]

quote Originally posted by vega: My god i THOUGHT this was the only site that actually did not flame people. I don't knwo this aron guy but guys just email or pm the mod and have the guy banned if he is really feeding us BS. that is what we always do on everyforum i have EVER been on- there sometimes is a flame war but god just ban the guy if he is shitin me- i don't want to listin and think **** if that is what it is....

Where did I flame anybody? I try to keep that to a minimum. Also, I don't know of this BS I speak. Please inform me where I speak BS. The only part that can even be argued is the cam timing issue, and the silver Z34, with cam timing, a 96 intake, and 64 vs a 62 throttle body, still didn't pull to 7 and had considerable drop off after 6-6.5.

So if someone wants to show me a dyno where their 3.4s optimal shift points are above 7000, I'll believe, but I don't think it can be done with the factory cams and intake manifolds. These guys are speaking of how hard their 3.4 pulls, and they don't have a dynosheet. How can you speak of a car's powerband with no dyno?

you would be surprised how agile an aircraft carrier really is.

What was the differnce between the LS1 and the stock throttle body? i.e.....what did it help or hurt?

quote Originally posted by joshua riedl: you would be surprised how agile an aircraft carrier really is.

I don't know, I was just using that as a reference.

The LS1 throttle body is 75mm in diameter, compared to the stock unit, which is 62 or 64 on the later years. This is great for a stock motor, but for one that has a lot of airflow mods, it becomes a restriction. So I went to a much bigger unit, which allows much more airflow.

I also replaced the intake arm. It crimps down and restricts airflow. Mine is a 3" mandrel bent piece, that never gets smaller. So it flows more.

These mods won't do much on a stock DOHC, but they help every mod gain more power.

So, with the 3" arm, you did not have to open up the hole on the intake manifold?