The temporary shutdown in the Knoxville area has caused panic buying. Local gas supplies are now gone. If you ever need a reason to buy an electric car as a backup. Of course a flex fuel car would also be a possibility.
I was at a gas station up in the KC area today and they ran out of 87E. Had to get the 100% gas octane or 89/91
Dude inside said that many areas were experiencing 87E outages. So it is beginning to hit the Midwest.
A caller to one of the Atlanta talk stations claimed to be somewhat of an 'insider". Said that there have been emergency re-allocations of gas in the midwest, via long haul trucks, to help with the east coast situation. She also said that they expect the pipeline to be online in a couple of days. She could have been blowing smoke, but she was quite believable.
Why is this not being treated as a national emergency by Biden? 45% of the USA receives fuel through this pipeline and it's a "private matter?"
It is my opinion that they (the ruling class) are working on an angle to blame it on "Big (American) Oil". It will become another wedge to drive into the growing divide, a rallying cry for those who are fomenting class warfare.
The left sees the government/citizen dynamic as a parent/child relationship. Sometimes they have to do the unpleasant things because "It is for your own good". How else are you going to learn?
[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 05-11-2021).]
Maybe seeing what this outage is doing will make some people realize how utterly stupid it was for our president to shut down Keystone.
Willie, most already know this and several won't admit it. Makes ya wonder what the hell they are thinking or, what direction they intend to take us. I don't see this ending well.
Why is this not being treated as a national emergency by Biden? 45% of the USA receives fuel through this pipeline and it's a "private matter?"
Governor DeSantis declared a statewide emergency in Florida today.
In all but extreme north Florida along the Georgia / Florida border, NONE of our gasoline comes from a pipeline.
Our fuel arrives here into the Port of Tampa by tanker and by barge. It is offloaded and stored in a huge facility there and is distributed around central Florida by tanker truck.
Nonetheless most gas stations in the area ran out of fuel today, allegedly due to "panic buying".
Governor DeSantis put the emergency order in place because, along with other needed measures, it allows the state and local authorities to police and prosecute price gouging.
Nonetheless most gas stations in the area ran out of fuel today, allegedly due to "panic buying".
Governor DeSantis put the emergency order in place because, along with other needed measures, it allows the state and local authorities to police and prosecute price gouging.
Just had a mental flashback to the 70's when gas was being rationed. Gas was being restricted to only getting five gallons every other day. The last number on your license tag dictated what day you could go get it. Knew a few folks with multiple vehicle that would switch tags from vehicles just to get what they thought they needed.
Ya just have to wonder if the hybrid or electric vehicle folks didn't have something to do with this................ Nah, would never happen.
Maybe seeing what this outage is doing will make some people realize how utterly stupid it was for our president to shut down Keystone.
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:
Willie, most already know this and several won't admit it. Makes ya wonder what the hell they are thinking or, what direction they intend to take us. I don't see this ending well.
Rams
I am all in favor of the existing Keystone and, the now cancelled Keystone XL but I'm pretty sure very few if any people have vehicles that will burn un-refined crude oil.
I am all in favor of the existing Keystone and, the now cancelled Keystone XL but I'm pretty sure very few if any people have vehicles that will burn un-refined crude oil.
Pretty sure most of us know gas and diesel come from crude oil and that unprocessed crude oil won't run any of our vehicles. I could be wrong but doubt it.
Pretty sure most of us know gas and diesel come from crude oil and that unprocessed crude oil won't run any of our vehicles. I could be wrong but doubt it.
Rams
Good.I was beginning to wonder So ,what does KeystoneXL have to do with today's refined fuels pipeline shutdown?
A girl at a N.C. gas station tried to cut in line, then runs into someone's car, spits on the driver of the car getting gas, and .... the fight is on... both participants were arrested. (rough language warning!)
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 05-12-2021).]
Good.I was beginning to wonder So ,what does KeystoneXL have to do with today's refined fuels pipeline shutdown?
Don't think I suggested Keystone XL had anything to do with it. Not even sure why you are asking me that.
KeystoneXL's cancelation can probably be used as an excuse to raise prices a bit but, the price hike's cause by this shut down would only add to any previous price increases in my mind. So, what does the KeystoneXL cancelation have to do with today's or yesterday's events? Other than adding more or less fuel to the fire on or for American dependency on foreign oil products, I'm not sure where you're going with this.
Don't think I suggested Keystone XL had anything to do with it. Not even sure why you are asking me that.
KeystoneXL's cancelation can probably be used as an excuse to raise prices a bit but, the price hike's cause by this shut down would only add to any previous price increases in my mind. So, what does the KeystoneXL cancelation have to do with today's or yesterday's events? Other than adding more or less fuel to the fire on or for American dependency on foreign oil products, I'm not sure where you're going with this.
Rams
Which is exactly what I'm asking. Where are you and Willie going in reference to a crude oil pipeline when there is no shortage of crude oil at the refineries? You did respond to his post in the affirmative, did you not? https://www.fiero.nl/forum/...ML/126489-2.html#p48
Which is exactly what I'm asking. Where are you and Willie going in reference to a crude oil pipeline when there is no shortage of crude oil at the refineries? You did respond to his post in the affirmative, did you not? https://www.fiero.nl/forum/...ML/126489-2.html#p48
Yes, I did respond to willie but, you're barking up the wrong tree. Tying these two events together is like oil and water, the only relationship would be in oil futures as I see it. There may be an abundance of oil now but the cost of getting that oil to the refineries went up or, was kept higher than it needed to be with the cancelation of KeystoneXL. My understanding is the KeystoneXL would only carry crude, is that in error? Additionally, I didn't think the pipeline in question carried much crude oil. May have but, my understanding is mostly finished product. Am I wrong on that? No issues here if I'm incorrect and you have more accurate information.
I would like to hear from IT people, the cyber security cognoscente on how this fell apart, what could we, should we have done differently.
I know it's not an easy answer, a constant cat and mouse game. But how do we change the game?
Obviously, I'm not qualified to offer any opinion on this but, I really don't understand why the operation system isn't totally separate from any potential email system. What I heard on the news was the bad guys get access through folks emails with virus. True or not?
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 05-12-2021).]
The way I see it, Keystone XL would be an improvement to our supply chain infrastructure and as such, would reduce our vulnerability, overall.
Real infrastructure, not the leftist newspeak definition.
I wonder if anyone else remembers Robert Riesch saying (under the Obama Presidency) that infrastructure stimulus wasnt intended to go to the typical White male construction workers?
Maybe seeing what this outage is doing will make some people realize how utterly stupid it was for our president to shut down Keystone.
Unlikely at all... what will happen in stead is that the main stream media will not discuss the Colonial Pipeline issues much at all, other than a casual comment about it. Any discussion that they do give will be geared towards a few things:
1 - Government needs to regulate businesses better 2 - This is why we need to get off fossil fuels 3 - Trump left the country in a precarious state with his scandals, now Biden has to clean up the mess.
I would like to hear from IT people, the cyber security cognoscente on how this fell apart, what could we, should we have done differently.
I know it's not an easy answer, a constant cat and mouse game. But how do we change the game?
Stop hooking ICS and SCADA systems up to the internet.
Every SCADA and ICS system usually is an "air gapped" network, supposedly. There are usually three tiers... you have the business network, which is ALWAYS connected to the internet... these are the computers of all the people working there, exchange server, domain controllers, payroll, wahtever. Then you have the second level down which is usually firewalled off. They call this an "air gapped" network generally, but it is not. There are still connections to the business network and they use things like ACLs and VLANs to segment the network from the business network. This second layer of the network has things such as the Historian, HMI (Human to Machine Interface) and other servers that manage the manufacturing and industry systems. Further still is the control layer, which is the third layer down, and that's where all the PLCs (Programmable Logic Boards) are located which actually interface with the machinery. These PLCs and such interface with the HMI in the network above it through (hopefully) specifically configured whitelisted routers that only allow specific traffic.
What happens most often is that someone on the business network is surfing the internet... maybe p0rn , sometimes Facebook. They go to a website that's not blocked and it causes a "trojan dropper" which exploits the machine in some way. It then does a call-back to what's called a "listening post" which retrieves more malware and usually something like a RAT (remote access tool) or an implant, or whatever it might be. In this case, cryptoware software which propagates through network and file shares encrypting anything it can find of any importance. This can all be fixed with the encryption key. Since it's usually encrypted with 256 AES or something of the sort, there's just not enough years in a lifetime to crack it with today's processors... so the business either has to start over, or pay the ransom.
Now, when these hackers get onto the business network, the very first thing they try to do is get onto an administrator's box... usually someone with high-level creds which they can capture using some other mechanism or software that they find. Since most people are morons, they save passwords in text files or Excel spreadsheets... so the credentials for all the routers and switches are probably saved locally on the admin's box, or on coprporate shares. Sometimes it's quite literally saved as passwords.txt. If not, it will routinely show up in the MRU (most recently used), journal, SuperFetch, or a bunch of other forensic artifacts that the hacker can easily search for. The hacker gets a hold of this, and then is able to get through the firewall between the business network and the operations network that has the HMI, Historian, etc. From there, the crypto worm, can spread through the Operations Network, basically encrypting everything on that network and effectively halting operations.
What companies need to do is STOP connecting the Operations Network to the Business network. They do this for ease of data transfer and for business metrics and other things. They sell "one-way" data-diods that allow you to transfer data from one network to another, and literally no way possible in the opposite direction. This is what they need, and ALL they need... and all that should be connecting between the Operations and Business network.
Often times, they still connect the networks though things like dial up modems (yep) so people can remotely monitor the industrial / operations network from home... or gasp, they just hook the internet right up to the operations network.
Bottom line... people HAVE GOT TO STOP hooking up their SCADA and ICS networks up to the internet... period. There's no excuse... none whatsoever. Pay someone to monitor the facility 24/7... do it in shifts... problem solved. If you want to know what's going on, set up a phone so the CEO, CIO, or any dick and jane in the company can call and find out. Use a data-diod to transmit data to the business network for metrics... stop connecting the operations network to the internet... and people need to stop looking at p0rn and sports information on their work computers.
Just go to http://shodan.io and you can do a search for literally thousands of exposed SCADA and ICS networks that you can freely hack right now if you want to. A good portion of these are fake honeypots that are either part of the HoneyNet project, or foreign governments looking to see where attacks are coming from. But many of them are still legitimate... and completely exposed.
.
EDIT: Fun fact, shodan.IO was named after "Shodan," the evil AI computer character from the late 1990s computer game, System Shock... she looks like this in digital form...
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 05-12-2021).]
Yes, I did respond to willie but, you're barking up the wrong tree. Tying these two events together is like oil and water, the only relationship would be in oil futures as I see it. There may be an abundance of oil now but the cost of getting that oil to the refineries went up or, was kept higher than it needed to be with the cancelation of KeystoneXL. My understanding is the KeystoneXL would only carry crude, is that in error? Additionally, I didn't think the pipeline in question carried much crude oil. May have but, my understanding is mostly finished product. Am I wrong on that? No issues here if I'm incorrect and you have more accurate information.
Rams
I'm not the one that started the barking on a red herring. You 2 are. My ? was why.
KeystoneXL would have only carried HEAVY crude from Canada and from the oilfields in Montana and the Dakotas. WTI and other Tex/La/Okla crudes are lighter crudes and are usually blended with heavier crudes prior to the refining because they can get a bigger variety of products from the blend than from just the lighter crudes since the cracking chain is longer. (More Olefins is the big advantage they get from the blend) XL would join the existing Keystone in Kansas to carry the heavy crude to the refineries near Houston. Canadian heavy crude is already carried thru the existing Keystone lines, XL was just an extension to enable a different source (Montana/Dakota)
Colonial pipeline is actually several pipelines and not all of them run the entire distance from Gulf Coast to the NE. Line 1 is the biggest (40" diameter) beginning in Pasadena Tx and it terminates in North Carolina. It as various injection supply points but the primary point is in Pasadena, but other fairly large injections can be done in Baytown, Beaumont, Port Autho Tx, Lake Charles la, and Collins Mississippi. Line 1 also has various lateral or stub lines, feeding areas as it traverses East and NE. This, is the line carrying most of the gasoline to points East and NE.
Line 2 is a 36" line that almost always carries distillates. (low and high sulfur diesel, heating oil, jet fuel, kerosenes, and specialized fuels for the US Military, specifically for the USN) It too begins on the Tx coast and is a 36" line, with it's own stub lines radiating out to different destinations, each with their own number. (Line 20 for instance, carries distillates from near Atlanta to Nashville Tn. Line 2 terminates same place as Line 1, near Greensboro N.C. Different components are pumped in batches and usually don't trans-mix with each other due tolaws of hydrauliics (specific gravity for instance)
Line 3 begins in Greensboro N.C. as does Line 4. Line 3 (gasoline) beyond Goldsboro N.C is a 36" line and line 4 (distillate) is a 32" line. Line 4 ends in Woodbine Md at the Dorsey terminal and only Line 3 continues on to Linden N.J. Lne 3 changges from a 36" line to a 30" line in Md.
I would like to hear from IT people, the cyber security cognoscente on how this fell apart, what could we, should we have done differently.
I know it's not an easy answer, a constant cat and mouse game. But how do we change the game?
Well lets see, you cut jobs and redistribute the work. you force mandatory overtime for salary employees. Managers are put in positions they should not hold. Security is too hard.
I'm not the one that started the barking on a red herring. You 2 are. My ? was why.
KeystoneXL would have only carried HEAVY crude from Canada and from the oilfields in Montana and the Dakotas. WTI and other Tex/La/Okla crudes are lighter crudes and are usually blended with heavier crudes prior to the refining because they can get a bigger variety of products from the blend than from just the lighter crudes since the cracking chain is longer. (More Olefins is the big advantage they get from the blend) XL would join the existing Keystone in Kansas to carry the heavy crude to the refineries near Houston. Canadian heavy crude is already carried thru the existing Keystone lines, XL was just an extension to enable a different source (Montana/Dakota)
Colonial pipeline is actually several pipelines and not all of them run the entire distance from Gulf Coast to the NE. Line 1 is the biggest (40" diameter) beginning in Pasadena Tx and it terminates in North Carolina. It as various injection supply points but the primary point is in Pasadena, but other fairly large injections can be done in Baytown, Beaumont, Port Autho Tx, Lake Charles la, and Collins Mississippi. Line 1 also has various lateral or stub lines, feeding areas as it traverses East and NE. This, is the line carrying most of the gasoline to points East and NE.
Line 2 is a 36" line that almost always carries distillates. (low and high sulfur diesel, heating oil, jet fuel, kerosenes, and specialized fuels for the US Military, specifically for the USN) It too begins on the Tx coast and is a 36" line, with it's own stub lines radiating out to different destinations, each with their own number. (Line 20 for instance, carries distillates from near Atlanta to Nashville Tn. Line 2 terminates same place as Line 1, near Greensboro N.C. Different components are pumped in batches and usually don't trans-mix with each other due tolaws of hydrauliics (specific gravity for instance)
Line 3 begins in Greensboro N.C. as does Line 4. Line 3 (gasoline) beyond Goldsboro N.C is a 36" line and line 4 (distillate) is a 32" line. Line 4 ends in Woodbine Md at the Dorsey terminal and only Line 3 continues on to Linden N.J. Lne 3 changges from a 36" line to a 30" line in Md.
Yep, you just verified what I thought. I honestly don't understand what about this statement got you like a dog with a bone.
quote
Originally posted by blackrams: Willie, most already know this and several won't admit it. Makes ya wonder what the hell they are thinking or, what direction they intend to take us. I don't see this ending well.
Rams
You're apparently looking for a contest, I don't care to participate. Have fun. It'll just have to be without me.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 05-12-2021).]
I merely asked a simple question; asking you to qualify why you saw fit to help bring KeystoneXL's crude oil pipeline into the discussion of a gasoline and distillate pipeline discussion. You can answer it or play the safe card and pull your dog out of it...again. Your choice.
I merely asked a simple question; asking you to qualify why you saw fit to help bring KeystoneXL's crude oil pipeline into the discussion of a gasoline and distillate pipeline discussion. You can answer it or play the safe card and pull your dog out of it...again. Your choice.
OK, thanks.
------------------ Rams Intelligent people speak because they have something to say, fools speak because they have to say something. Consider that before telling anyone what's on your mind. <a href="https://m.maploco.com/visited-states/mine.php?states=AL-AR-AZ-CA-CO-DC-FL-GA-IA-ID-IL-IN-KS-KY-LA-MA-MD-MI-MN-MO-MS-MT-NC-ND-NE-NJ-NM-NV-NY-OH-OK-OR-PA-SC-SD-TN-TX-UT-VA-WA-WI-WV-WY&w=ml"><img src="https://map1.maploco.com/visited-states/ml/AL-AR-AZ-CA-CO-DC-FL-GA-IA-ID-IL-IN-KS-KY-LA-MA-MD-MI-MN-MO-MS-MT-NC-ND-NE-NJ-NM-NV-NY-OH-OK-OR-PA-SC-SD-TN-TX-UT-VA-WA-WI-WV-WY.png" border=0><br>Create Your Own Visited States Map</a> My wife told me to grow up. I told her to get out of my fort!
Ok the pipeline is back in business. We will see how long before things return to normal. You think these knotheads will learn their security lesson?
My understanding is it's partially back up but, maybe this announcement will cool the jets of those in the long lines trying to fill up every gas can they have.
Originally posted by blackrams: Pretty sure most of us know gas and diesel come from crude oil and that unprocessed crude oil won't run any of our vehicles. I could be wrong but doubt it. Rams
quote
Originally posted by maryjane: Good.I was beginning to wonder So ,what does KeystoneXL have to do with today's refined fuels pipeline shutdown?
Stop hooking ICS and SCADA systems up to the internet.
This. Exactly this.
I understand how this stuff works. Looks like you do, too. Probably on a different level than I do.
During my work day, I support the comm links to our SCADA and AMI (automated metering) devices. I used to be of the opinion that the worst kind of attack would be caused by a disgruntled employee or former employee. But I'm not so sure, any more. My thinking was based upon the premise that most people don't understand the protocols that talk to the devices, and even if they did, they wouldn't be able to do anything with the data without a "control point", to define the data they happened to be looking at. But if they (an attacker) encrypts it, so that nobody can do anything with it, that would be a problem. A different kind of "Denial Of Service".
Our stuff is protected to a fare-thee-well. I hope it's enough. I think it is. (I often joke that the most secure network is the one that cannot be accessed at all. But even the maintenance of our systems has turned into a chore, due to all the flaming hoops we have to jump through.)
Aside from that, I've heard comments that Colonial Pipeline's network security was a real mess, so maybe they were "inviting trouble".
Lastly, regarding all of the conspiracy theories, I have often heard words to the effect of... "Don't blame on malice, that which can be readily attributed to stupidity." Might ring true, in this case.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 05-12-2021).]
I understand how this stuff works. Looks like you do, too. Probably on a different level than I do.
During my work day, I support the comm links to our SCADA and AMI (automated metering) devices. I used to be of the opinion that the worst kind of attack would be caused by a disgruntled employee or former employee. But I'm not so sure, any more. My thinking was based upon the premise that most people don't understand the protocols that talk to the devices, and even if they did, they wouldn't be able to do anything with the data without a "control point", to define the data they happened to be looking at. But if they (an attacker) encrypts it, so that nobody can do anything with it, that would be a problem. A different kind of "Denial Of Service".
Our stuff is protected to a fare-thee-well. I hope it's enough. I think it is. (I often joke that the most secure network is the one that cannot be accessed at all. But even the maintenance of our systems has turned into a chore, due to all the flaming hoops we have to jump through.)
Aside from that, I've heard comments that Colonial Pipeline's network security was a real mess, so maybe they were "inviting trouble".
Lastly, regarding all of the conspiracy theories, I have often heard words to the effect of... "Don't blame on malice, that which can be readily attributed to stupidity." Might ring true, in this case.
Steve, You most likely, have a better picture of this than the majority of us. It's not unusual for corporations to not spend to improve unless they see an advantage or, they take a hit. You may be correct in your assessment.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 05-12-2021).]
That's funny. Knowing locks only stop honest folks and barely slow down thieves. An employer I had once was losing fuel from some of the company vehicles, the boss's answer to that was to have the maintenance folks install a similar security system to those shown in the pic. Didn't stop the thieves they simply came back with buckets and poked holes in the side of the trucks tanks getting all they could get letting the tanks empty onto the ground. IIRC, four trucks had to have new tanks installed. Security Cameras (later installed) did catch some teenagers stealing and they were prosecuted but, the losses were constant up to that point.
Originally posted by blackrams: Steve, You most likely, have a better picture of this than the majority of us. It's not unusual for corporations to not spend to improve unless they see an advantage or, they take a hit. You may be correct in your assessment.
Rams
We are considered "critical infrastructure". (I'm really surprised if pipeline companies are not.) We are told by the feds - FERC and others - that, "You will take the appropriate security precautions. Period." This includes network security as well as physical security.
We have to undergo refresher security training every year. Some of us have to undergo "Insider Threat" screening, for the exact reason that I mentioned in my previous post. They want to make very sure that nobody on the inside is going to "lose it" and start trashing stuff. Someone who knows what they're doing can do a lot of damage in short order. If someone leaves, or even changes departments, their security access is revoked immediately. If it is needed in their next assignment, it is re-applied for, and reassigned.
Lots of things changed after 9/11, and things have really tightened up over the last 4-5 years. For several years, Network Security was the fastest growing segment of our employee workforce. It's also where the money is. Experienced Network Security Analysts start out at least one pay grade above where I am, now, after having done Telecom for 40 years.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 05-13-2021).]
Lots of things changed after 9/11, and things have really tightened up over the last 4-5 years. For several years, Network Security was the fastest growing segment of our employee workforce. It's also where the money is.
As it should be..................... As the world moves forward into more AI, more and better supervision would seem mandatory. I'm way out of my league when it comes to this. So, I defer to those who can play at that level. Thanks for doing what you do.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 05-13-2021).]
As it should be..................... As the world moves forward into more AI, more and better supervision would seem mandatory. I'm way out of my league when it comes to this. So, I defer to those who can play at that level. Thanks for doing what you do.
Rams
"Where all the money is" does not include my job description. Telecom and radio is a dying art. (If you know any broadcast engineers, they'll give you a lonnng dissertation...) I know enough about "Network" to blunder through and do what I do. The security people are the "gurus".
