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Feeling responsible, guilty or just plain stupid? by blackrams
Started on: 04-08-2021 08:43 AM
Replies: 53 (588 views)
Last post by: randye on 04-12-2021 08:55 PM
blackrams
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Report this Post04-08-2021 08:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The illegal alien non-citizen crisis challenge currently at the southern border now?
Lots of children are being tossed over the wall or crossing the desert without their parents.
Those cages (under the Trump administration) are now again being used with extreme over crowding and no parents to be found. According to the "news", most of the illegal aliens are being given dates to report to hearings and released. Yeah, there's a great plan to keep this country secure.

President Biden is being a nice guy (or so he says). Families are being ripped apart but, that's ok. It's for the children. The border is under a constant overwhelming assault. According to some very biased "leftist" news organizations, some of the kids are being shipped to military bases further north. Yeah, there's a good plan.

I'm curious, feeling a bit stupid, guilty or responsible for supporting someone with absolutely no plan to deal with this? The HMS Secretary is now wanting to fill in the gaps in the wall. What's up with that? I thought the wall was bad. VP Harris is supposedly now in charge of this "challenge" and as yet has not even visited the border. BP agents are begging for help. They are overwhelmed. President Biden has opened Pandora's Box and now we're going to have to deal with his actions. Yeah, I'm pissed about this self induced stupidity.

I feel quite certain all the leftist Biden supporters will be stepping up to foster some of these kids in their own homes. Please raise your hands so we know and can congratulate you.

I'll ask again, feeling stupid, responsible, guilty? Or is this also President Trump's fault.

Rams
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Report this Post04-08-2021 08:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I feel none of those emotions, relative to the results of the inauguration of former vice president biden.

Other feelings come to mind; I will keep them to myself.
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Report this Post04-08-2021 09:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Those parents are guilty of ripping their families apart. It can end as soon as they go claim the kids.

The goal is to later claim to be the custodial parent when the child is placed somewhere. You can't deport the custodial parent and the custodial parent gets free everything: housing, health insurance, utilities, transportation, education, etc..
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Report this Post04-08-2021 09:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sourmash:

Those parents are guilty of ripping their families apart. It can end as soon as they go claim the kids.

The goal is to later claim to be the custodial parent when the child is placed somewhere. You can't deport the custodial parent and the custodial parent gets free everything: housing, health insurance, utilities, transportation, education, etc..


But, but, but................ President Biden provided the incentive............ He doesn't have a plan but, that apparently doesn't matter.
Whether you, I, or we like it, we're going to have to deal with this. Thanks Liberals. I hope you're taking these kids in, fostering them till their parents arrive and then help take care of the whole family.
I'm sure Speaker Pelosi will be taking several in (behind her walled in home) and help them get established. How many will you be taking in?

Rams

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 04-08-2021).]

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Report this Post04-08-2021 10:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Kinda think the plan is as intended, but it's not going to be openly presented or the stupid people will wake up. Biden was celebratory when saying Whites will soon be a minority.

But I don't think it's his plan. It is a plan though. He's just one of the many willing to sell his remaining soul to get approved to be pResident.

Republicans aren't doing anything about it. Nobody is contesting his dictatorial Exec Orders like they did Trump's.

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Report this Post04-08-2021 03:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Hank is HereClick Here to Email Hank is HereSend a Private Message to Hank is HereEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
While this may sound harsh... I know what could stop the problem rather quickly....landmines/minefields. Essntially we need to put in place some type of serious consequence for commnig here illiegally instead of offering benefits.

I am not against immigration at all. I am against illegal immigration and blanket issuing of US citizenship. When we look across the pond in the EU there are simlair problems with illegal immagrants from Syria and residents of former ISIS areas. Really the problem is failed/corrupt governments across the world pushing people away, either in terms of seucrity or economics.


What I would propose is a totally differnet fix. Fix the problem with economics. Right now a large percentage of immigrants are Guatemalan. Lets have out government work with Guatemala to incent US companies create manufacturing/processing facilities in Guatemala to offer residents a fair and steady job and adding local economic stability. Hey id there are industries that we can stratigically moe away from China lets do it! Lets take an example of opening recycling/reprocessing in a Guatemala. Lets have them locally process/reprocess plastics waste form teh US that China now refuse to take. The incentives can be written to ensure companies do it on the up and up environmentally, and not just relocate US pollution offshore. Maybe following this plan this may also spur an ethane cracker or a injection molding molding site for a basic product.
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Report this Post04-08-2021 03:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There isn't a huge incentive nowadays to recycle plastic.
Oil and therefore virgin plastic is too cheap to make recycling and sorting pay very much.
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Report this Post04-08-2021 03:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Hank is Here:

While this may sound harsh... I know what could stop the problem rather quickly....landmines/minefields. Essntially we need to put in place some type of serious consequence for commnig here illiegally instead of offering benefits.

I am not against immigration at all. I am against illegal immigration and blanket issuing of US citizenship. When we look across the pond in the EU there are simlair problems with illegal immagrants from Syria and residents of former ISIS areas. Really the problem is failed/corrupt governments across the world pushing people away, either in terms of seucrity or economics.

You just described the DMZ between North and South Korea.

Rams

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 04-08-2021).]

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Report this Post04-08-2021 04:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Hank is HereClick Here to Email Hank is HereSend a Private Message to Hank is HereEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:

You just described the DMZ between North and South Korea.



That would work! What's the immigraiton between the two Koreas? ...you could probably count he successful attempts annually on your hands.

[This message has been edited by Hank is Here (edited 04-08-2021).]

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Report this Post04-08-2021 05:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:

The illegal alien non-citizen crisis challenge currently at the southern border now?
Lots of children are being tossed over the wall or crossing the desert without their parents.
Those cages (under the Trump administration) are now again being used with extreme over crowding and no parents to be found. According to the "news", most of the illegal aliens are being given dates to report to hearings and released. Yeah, there's a great plan to keep this country secure.

President Biden is being a nice guy (or so he says). Families are being ripped apart but, that's ok. It's for the children. The border is under a constant overwhelming assault. According to some very biased "leftist" news organizations, some of the kids are being shipped to military bases further north. Yeah, there's a good plan.

I'm curious, feeling a bit stupid, guilty or responsible for supporting someone with absolutely no plan to deal with this? The HMS Secretary is now wanting to fill in the gaps in the wall. What's up with that? I thought the wall was bad. VP Harris is supposedly now in charge of this "challenge" and as yet has not even visited the border. BP agents are begging for help. They are overwhelmed. President Biden has opened Pandora's Box and now we're going to have to deal with his actions. Yeah, I'm pissed about this self induced stupidity.

I feel quite certain all the leftist Biden supporters will be stepping up to foster some of these kids in their own homes. Please raise your hands so we know and can congratulate you.

I'll ask again, feeling stupid, responsible, guilty? Or is this also President Trump's fault.

Rams


I'm pretty sure they likely fell firmly deeper into cognitive dissonance mode, even more than they were when they just used emotions and denied facts all along before as to the many reasons why we need a secure border.

Either that or they don't even know about it due to lack of quality mainstream media coverage.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 04-08-2021).]

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Report this Post04-08-2021 07:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've noticed that all those Biden supporters don't seem to have much to say.
It's probably because they are busy filling out paperwork to foster a illegal (oops) non-citizen.

Yeah, that's it.

Rams

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 04-08-2021).]

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Report this Post04-08-2021 08:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IMSA GTClick Here to Email IMSA GTSend a Private Message to IMSA GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Somehow I sense an impeachment process coming up within a year. This idiots first few months in office have been worse than any I've seen since the Carter era.
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Report this Post04-08-2021 08:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by IMSA GT:

Somehow I sense an impeachment process coming up within a year. This idiots first few months in office have been worse than any I've seen since the Carter era.

I've heard rumors to that effect even prior to the election. Putting VP Harris into the Oval Office is scary enough but her selection of a VP scares the hell out of me.
Candidate Biden was the most acceptable candidate to the Democratic voters but, the powers that be want a real Progressive.
This will not end well.
But, back on topic, the Dems are now importing thousands (if not more) future votes. We all know the push will be on to get them registered as soon as possible.

Rams

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 04-08-2021).]

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Report this Post04-08-2021 10:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theBDubSend a Private Message to theBDubEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
From my seat, President Biden is doing a terrible job at and of the border.

I’m a fan of open borders, but before open borders can happen, we’d need a lot more policy changes to go my way.
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Report this Post04-08-2021 10:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:

From my seat, President Biden is doing a terrible job at and of the border.

I’m a fan of open borders, but before open borders can happen, we’d need a lot more policy changes to go my way.


I'm curious at to what "your way" is. I'm not in favor of open borders. I am in favor of legal immigration to become a citizen of the US.

Rams
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Report this Post04-08-2021 10:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theBDubSend a Private Message to theBDubEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:


I'm curious at to what "your way" is. I'm not in favor of open borders. I am in favor of legal immigration to become a citizen of the US.

Rams


Virtually no direct government support, as in no social security, no government-sponsored healthcare, childcare credits, etc. I want these things anyway, probably lower on the priority list if I’m being honest, but these would have to go away before opening the border as to not incentivize people to come live off the government (which is really living off tax payers).

Other items like a reduction in drug laws, flat(ter) tax rate, clearer path to citizenship, reducing agricultural subsidies, might also help make it smoother. Point is, we’d need to be a different nation. We’d need to be a nation that values personal freedoms above everything else, because that nation welcomes anyone who can make it.

Since most of this is unrealistic, my realistic approach is to start with an easier path to citizenship.
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Report this Post04-08-2021 10:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:


Virtually no direct government support, as in no social security, no government-sponsored healthcare, childcare credits, etc. I want these things anyway, probably lower on the priority list if I’m being honest, but these would have to go away before opening the border as to not incentivize people to come live off the government (which is really living off tax payers).

Other items like a reduction in drug laws, flat(ter) tax rate, clearer path to citizenship, reducing agricultural subsidies, might also help make it smoother. Point is, we’d need to be a different nation. We’d need to be a nation that values personal freedoms above everything else, because that nation welcomes anyone who can make it.

Since most of this is unrealistic, my realistic approach is to start with an easier path to citizenship.


Your priorities are an indication of your youth. I'm not knocking your priorities, I simply believe they will change as you get further along in life.
An easier path to citizenship? That's a tough one for me to fully comprehend. It appears now that all you have to do it get across the border and wait.
That may be an exaggeration but, it's getting closer every day.

Rams
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Report this Post04-09-2021 01:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rinselbergClick Here to visit rinselberg's HomePageClick Here to Email rinselbergSend a Private Message to rinselbergEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:

I've noticed that all those Biden supporters don't seem to have much to say. It's probably because they are busy filling out paperwork to foster a illegal (oops) non-citizen.

Yeah, that's it.

Rams

"I'll let you know when I get worried about it."

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 04-09-2021).]

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Report this Post04-09-2021 04:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cliffwClick Here to Email cliffwSend a Private Message to cliffwEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
I’m a fan of open borders, ....


And of course your doors to your home are unlocked and your refrigerator is stocked full. Do you have my flavor of beer ?

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Report this Post04-09-2021 04:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cliffwClick Here to Email cliffwSend a Private Message to cliffwEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

cliffw

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quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
I’m a fan of open borders, ...


Why ?
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Report this Post04-09-2021 06:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rinselberg:

"I'll let you know when I get worried about it."



Hmm Well of the three options offered, that answer eliminates two of them.

Rams
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Report this Post04-09-2021 06:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for HudiniClick Here to Email HudiniSend a Private Message to HudiniEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rinselberg:


"I'll let you know when I get worried about it."



Of course you aren’t. Just keep the band playing.

[This message has been edited by Hudini (edited 04-09-2021).]

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Report this Post04-09-2021 07:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cliffw:


Why ?


Because it provokes people to respond.
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Report this Post04-09-2021 07:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Choke off all immigration.
We have enough peasants. Robots are replacing humans in the work force so more peasants just serves the elite by forcing down wages.

No more dual citizens serving in government. They just push for foreign welfare and cheaper labor. Russia outlawed it because it's corrosive.
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Report this Post04-09-2021 11:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theBDubSend a Private Message to theBDubEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:


Your priorities are an indication of your youth. I'm not knocking your priorities, I simply believe they will change as you get further along in life.
An easier path to citizenship? That's a tough one for me to fully comprehend. It appears now that all you have to do it get across the border and wait.
That may be an exaggeration but, it's getting closer every day.

Rams


I said easier path to citizenship, not just a temporary work visa or something. It’s extremely difficult to become a US Citizen, with a lot of luck being required. IMO, it should be easier to be legal.
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Report this Post04-09-2021 11:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theBDubSend a Private Message to theBDubEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cliffw:


Why ?


I find it hard to reconcile believing in any real inalienable rights and then saying it’s really dependent on where you were born.

There is a lot of realism that dampens the idea. Clearly you couldn’t just open it up today with our existing entitlement programs. But if, theoretically, we didn’t have those enticing programs, there wouldn’t be much downside to opening the borders. Let people come in and participate in the economy more freely!
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Report this Post04-09-2021 11:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:


I said easier path to citizenship, not just a temporary work visa or something. It’s extremely difficult to become a US Citizen, with a lot of luck being required. IMO, it should be easier to be legal.


Yep, I know what you said. And yet all those illegal aliens Non-Citizens are still eating up dollars, benefits and manpower assisting them that struggling Citizens could be using, all at the tax payer's expense. Or, taking jobs at lower wages and not paying taxes. It would seem there are many advantages to just crossing the open border and accepting all the "government" assistance now being provided (again, at our expense).

Rams
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Report this Post04-09-2021 11:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:


I find it hard to reconcile believing in any real inalienable rights and then saying it’s really dependent on where you were born.

There is a lot of realism that dampens the idea. Clearly you couldn’t just open it up today with our existing entitlement programs. But if, theoretically, we didn’t have those enticing programs, there wouldn’t be much downside to opening the borders. Let people come in and participate in the economy more freely!



There is a process to legally immigrate into this country. It should be encouraged and enforced. Jumping to the front of the line is wrong whether it's at the movie theater or at the border.

Rams
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Report this Post04-09-2021 11:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:

we’d need to be a different nation.

.


Disagree. But we could start enforcing current laws as a start.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 04-09-2021).]

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Report this Post04-09-2021 11:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

2.5

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quote
Originally posted by theBDub:

I find it hard to reconcile believing in any real inalienable rights and then saying it’s really dependent on where you were born.



Thats nice sounding but societies of people have different rules and beliefs, thats how they became different societies to begin with. As much as we would love all people to act like upstanding Americans do, its not that easy.

What do you think about citizenship, does it mean anything to you?
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Report this Post04-09-2021 11:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theBDubSend a Private Message to theBDubEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:


Yep, I know what you said. And yet all those illegal aliens Non-Citizens are still eating up dollars, benefits and manpower assisting them that struggling Citizens could be using, all at the tax payer's expense. Or, taking jobs at lower wages and not paying taxes. It would seem there are many advantages to just crossing the open border and accepting all the "government" assistance now being provided (again, at our expense).

There is a process to legally immigrate into this country. It should be encouraged and enforced. Jumping to the front of the line is wrong whether it's at the movie theater or at the border.

Rams


There are plenty of arguments that non-Citizen workers actually contribute more in taxes than they take, due to not being eligible for existing entitlement programs, but still paying wage and sales taxes. But I'd agree with regards to taking jobs.

No disagreement on there being a process. I think you're reading something that I'm not saying. I am a proponent of easier legal immigration, but do not support illegal immigration, nor do I support holding up a bunch of illegal immigrants in taxpayer-funded areas. I simply want to make it easier for those who want to do it right to do it right. Most illegal immigrants came here legally but overstayed their Visa. The process is long and filled with holes. It doesn't really make any sense as it exists today.
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Report this Post04-09-2021 11:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:


There are plenty of arguments that non-Citizen workers actually contribute more in taxes than they take, due to not being eligible for existing entitlement programs, but still paying wage and sales taxes. But I'd agree with regards to taking jobs.

No disagreement on there being a process. I think you're reading something that I'm not saying. I am a proponent of easier legal immigration, but do not support illegal immigration, nor do I support holding up a bunch of illegal immigrants in taxpayer-funded areas. I simply want to make it easier for those who want to do it right to do it right. Most illegal immigrants came here legally but overstayed their Visa. The process is long and filled with holes. It doesn't really make any sense as it exists today.


OK.
What do you prescribe we do with the current group now already being held in our facilities or currently either crossing or attempting to cross into the US via our open border?
I know what I'd do but very willing to listen to other ideas.

Rams
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theBDub
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Report this Post04-09-2021 11:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theBDubSend a Private Message to theBDubEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:


Thats nice sounding but societies of people have different rules and beliefs, thats how they became different societies to begin with. As much as we would love all people to act like upstanding Americans do, its not that easy.

What do you think about citizenship, does it mean anything to you?


My second paragraph of the comment you quoted addressed that it isn't realistic, especially today.

Where are you getting the question or where are you going with it? That would help me answer the question. Of course it means something to me. I just said I wanted to make it easier to obtain. I didn't say it didn't matter.

I understand that my beliefs are a bit out there. To help understand, I'm a Libertarian, and if you go through the Libertarian Party's beliefs, I'm pretty much fully aligned with few exceptions. However, there is a distinction in my mind between my true beliefs and what I think is realistic given the imperfect nature of humanity, and considering existing momentum. Essentially, I have what I'd call the "true beliefs" that are my foundation, and I have what might be considered compromises that sit above those that are more realistic.
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Report this Post04-09-2021 12:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:

You just described the DMZ between North and South Korea.

Rams


And the old Iron Curtain between East and West Berlin, as well as the no man's land (Cactus Curtain) around GTMO Naval Base.
Clinton ordered demining of the US area at GTMO in '96 but the Cubans have not removed theirs yet.


Safer trying to swim the shark infested water gate on Guantanamo River than try to cross the no man's land..

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Report this Post04-09-2021 12:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:


My second paragraph of the comment you quoted addressed that it isn't realistic, especially today.

Where are you getting the question or where are you going with it? That would help me answer the question. Of course it means something to me. I just said I wanted to make it easier to obtain. I didn't say it didn't matter.

I understand that my beliefs are a bit out there. To help understand, I'm a Libertarian, and if you go through the Libertarian Party's beliefs, I'm pretty much fully aligned with few exceptions. However, there is a distinction in my mind between my true beliefs and what I think is realistic given the imperfect nature of humanity, and considering existing momentum. Essentially, I have what I'd call the "true beliefs" that are my foundation, and I have what might be considered compromises that sit above those that are more realistic.



Here is the entire post that I read:

 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:


I find it hard to reconcile believing in any real inalienable rights and then saying it’s really dependent on where you were born.

There is a lot of realism that dampens the idea. Clearly you couldn’t just open it up today with our existing entitlement programs. But if, theoretically, we didn’t have those enticing programs, there wouldn’t be much downside to opening the borders. Let people come in and participate in the economy more freely!


You saying something isnt realistic today...means you still want it. I explained why it can't work. It's not just because of how things are today. Societies are societies, countries are countries, and there are borders for reasons, do you disagree? I'm getting this question because of what you said in the post I replied to.

Your response (in bold) clears it up a little, yes humanity is the problem, since that won't change, in my life I don't talk about utopian unobtainable scenarios as they only confuse progress.
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Report this Post04-09-2021 01:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:


I find it hard to reconcile believing in any real inalienable rights and then saying it’s really dependent on where you were born.

There is a lot of realism that dampens the idea. Clearly you couldn’t just open it up today with our existing entitlement programs. But if, theoretically, we didn’t have those enticing programs, there wouldn’t be much downside to opening the borders. Let people come in and participate in the economy more freely!


There would be to current and future blue collar workers in the non-border states most directly affected.
What much of America is seeing today and recently, the border states have endured for decades.
Nowadays (maybe Calif excepted) the border states have become 'pass-thru' states, just as Mexico is now to illegals from central and south America.

There is a misconception that illegal immigrants only take jobs 'Americans' don't want or won't do and that simply is not true. Traditionally, heavy equipment operators, house framers, roofers and other trades made very good livings. Nowadays, even tho the wages have risen compared to past decades, those trades and many others in border states are now filled with mostly Hispanics and have been for at least 2-3 decades. It's not that non-Hispanic Americans won't do or don't want those jobs, it's much more a case of them being squeezed out by immigrants, both legal and illegal. The same is true in upstream oil & gas. In the 70s and 80s, I rarely if ever saw a Mexican on a drilling rig. Now, it's hard to find a rig without a Hispanic crew on the floor.

If you are going to open the border, you better have a plan for where the rest of the near future US workforce is going to find a job.

Temp visas for the ag sector (commonly referred to as migrant workers) worked very good in the past. Not so much any more. Too many runners that decide to stay and just disappear into the fabric of America after their visa period ends. We have no idea where they are today, numbering in the millions.

I am NOT 1 bit in favor of rewarding current illegal residents with citizenship. I do not care how long they have been here. If they want citizenship, make them return to country of origin, go thru the legal process the millions of legal immigrants did.

It is extremely easy to get a very good but fraudulent ID and extremely difficult to detect a fraudulent id in the majority of cases.
When the Fed's own protocol for culling out illegal IDs is inefficient, they shouldn't hold or punish the employer responsible for it, but they often do.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 04-09-2021).]

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Report this Post04-09-2021 01:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:


There would be to current and future blue collar workers in the non-border states most directly affected.
What much of America is seeing today and recently, the border states have endured for decades.
Nowadays (maybe Calif excepted) the border states have become 'pass-thru' states, just as Mexico is now to illegals from central and south America.

There is a misconception that illegal immigrants only take jobs 'Americans' don't want or won't do and that simply is not true. Traditionally, heavy equipment operators, house framers, roofers and other trades made very good livings. Nowadays, even tho the wages have risen compared to past decades, those trades and many others in border states are now filled with mostly Hispanics and have been for at least 2-3 decades. It's not that non-Hispanic Americans won't do or don't want those jobs, it's much more a case of them being squeezed out by immigrants, both legal and illegal. The same is true in upstream oil & gas. In the 70s and 80s, I rarely if ever saw a Mexican on a drilling rig. Now, it's hard to find a rig without a Hispanic crew on the floor.

If you are going to open the border, you better have a plan for where the rest of the near future US workforce is going to find a job.

Temp visas for the ag sector (commonly referred to as migrant workers) worked very good in the past. Not so much any more. Too many runners that decide to stay and just disappear into the fabric of America after their visa period ends. We have no idea where they are today, numbering in the millions.

I am NOT 1 bit in favor of rewarding current illegal residents with citizenship. I do not care how long they have been here. If they want citizenship, make them return to country of origin, go thru the legal process the millions of legal immigrants did.

It is extremely easy to get a very good but fraudulent ID and extremely difficult to detect a fraudulent id in the majority of cases.
When the Fed's own protocol for culling out illegal IDs is inefficient, they shouldn't hold or punish the employer responsible for it, but they often do.



Agreed.

Add to that the new minimum wage being pushed through only adds to the middle class wage earner's challenges. More jobs will be automated, raises for lower skilled workers will increase but, those at the proposed levels will not get wage increases just because the minimum went up. Yep, we deserve the government we elected alright. Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

Rams

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 04-09-2021).]

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Report this Post04-09-2021 01:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
We won't see the min wage bill get passed &signed for a while. Too hot of a potato right now.
There is, in my area, a dire shortage of low wage workers right now because of $1400 stimulus and extended unemployment bennies. Especially true in food service.
'How you gonna keep 'em down on the farm once they've seen the free farm?'
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Report this Post04-09-2021 06:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theBDubSend a Private Message to theBDubEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:


OK.
What do you prescribe we do with the current group now already being held in our facilities or currently either crossing or attempting to cross into the US via our open border?
I know what I'd do but very willing to listen to other ideas.

Rams


Either send them home or change the laws for everyone, but I don't believe in providing exceptions. So for now it would be to send them back.


 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:


You saying something isnt realistic today...means you still want it. I explained why it can't work. It's not just because of how things are today. Societies are societies, countries are countries, and there are borders for reasons, do you disagree? I'm getting this question because of what you said in the post I replied to.

Your response (in bold) clears it up a little, yes humanity is the problem, since that won't change, in my life I don't talk about utopian unobtainable scenarios as they only confuse progress.


Countries have molded over time to what they are today. Influence changes. Once, the Roman empire ruled the world. It doesn't anymore. Once, Spain, France, and England ruled much of the world. They don't anymore. Borders exist for a myriad of reasons, but often the people near these borders are more similar than the people a thousand miles away within the same border line.

I don't disagree that they exist for a reason, but I do disagree that they have to.

 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:


There would be to current and future blue collar workers in the non-border states most directly affected.
What much of America is seeing today and recently, the border states have endured for decades.
Nowadays (maybe Calif excepted) the border states have become 'pass-thru' states, just as Mexico is now to illegals from central and south America.

There is a misconception that illegal immigrants only take jobs 'Americans' don't want or won't do and that simply is not true. Traditionally, heavy equipment operators, house framers, roofers and other trades made very good livings. Nowadays, even tho the wages have risen compared to past decades, those trades and many others in border states are now filled with mostly Hispanics and have been for at least 2-3 decades. It's not that non-Hispanic Americans won't do or don't want those jobs, it's much more a case of them being squeezed out by immigrants, both legal and illegal. The same is true in upstream oil & gas. In the 70s and 80s, I rarely if ever saw a Mexican on a drilling rig. Now, it's hard to find a rig without a Hispanic crew on the floor.

If you are going to open the border, you better have a plan for where the rest of the near future US workforce is going to find a job.

Temp visas for the ag sector (commonly referred to as migrant workers) worked very good in the past. Not so much any more. Too many runners that decide to stay and just disappear into the fabric of America after their visa period ends. We have no idea where they are today, numbering in the millions.

I am NOT 1 bit in favor of rewarding current illegal residents with citizenship. I do not care how long they have been here. If they want citizenship, make them return to country of origin, go thru the legal process the millions of legal immigrants did.

It is extremely easy to get a very good but fraudulent ID and extremely difficult to detect a fraudulent id in the majority of cases.
When the Fed's own protocol for culling out illegal IDs is inefficient, they shouldn't hold or punish the employer responsible for it, but they often do.



Yes, it would impact people. That doesn't mean it's a net negative. Jobs are not provided by rights, they're provided by employers because the value of that labor is determined to be more than the cost of that labor. More people present in an economy allows the economy to grow with more consumers. Does the U.S. really have to have a plan in place to replace blue collar jobs? Why is it the government's responsibility to care for those people? Those jobs are not guaranteed, they never have been. My job is not guaranteed. I used to work in Oil and Gas, and was laid off when the industry crashed in 2015. I had to reinvent myself just like many others. That's life.

[This message has been edited by theBDub (edited 04-09-2021).]

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Report this Post04-09-2021 07:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Yes, it would impact people. That doesn't mean it's a net negative. Jobs are not provided by rights, they're provided by employers because the value of that labor is determined to be more than the cost of that labor. More people present in an economy allows the economy to grow with more consumers. Does the U.S. really have to have a plan in place to replace blue collar jobs? Why is it the government's responsibility to care for those people? Those jobs are not guaranteed, they never have been. My job is not guaranteed. I used to work in Oil and Gas, and was laid off when the industry crashed in 2015. I had to reinvent myself just like many others. That's life.


Now, apply that same construct to the population of Mexico, Guatemala, Peru, et al. Do you tell the populations of those countries "That's life?"
Evidently not.
Foreigners have no implied or stated right to enter this country either, but many believe they do.
On one hand you say it is not the govt's job to provide jobs, but by pushing for this and other federal administrations to open borders, that is exactly what you are wanting the US Govt to do; provide jobs , albeit for people in other counties. You don't get to have it both ways.

When there is a surplus of any commodity, including labor, what happens to the consumer cost of those commodities? They stay the same or decrease.
Wages? The wages become stagnant if not decrease.
It's called 'The Job Market' for a reason.

"Labor Supply and Demand
When unemployment is high, the number of people looking for work significantly exceeds the number of jobs available. In other words, the supply of labor is greater than the demand for it.

Let's take wage inflation—the rate of change in wages—as a proxy for inflation in the economy. With so many workers available, there's little need for employers to "bid" for the services of employees by paying them higher wages. In times of high unemployment, wages typically remain stagnant, and wage inflation (or rising wages) is non-existent.2

In times of low unemployment, the demand for labor by employers exceeds the supply. In such a tight labor market, employers typically need to pay higher wages to attract employees, ultimately leading to rising wage inflation.

Over the years, economists have studied the relationship between unemployment and wage inflation, as well as the overall inflation rate."

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 04-09-2021).]

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