Where to start, where to start ? The actors or the issues ? The shepards or the sheeple ? Eh, lets do them all.
I have been recently scolded for using juvinile names describing democrats. That they would never accept my views or opinions if I called them names. Like playing nicey nicey would help. When was the last time you ever won a debate with a dummy ?
Let's start with the issues. DACA/gooberment shut down. I am not making this up. The DUMBOCRATS are threatening to shut down the American citizen's government, three milion strong, to protect illegal aliens.
The DUMBOCRATS could protect them by funding the wall, ending chain migration, and the dumb lottery system. What's up that they won't ? We played this game with Ronald Reagan. Amnesty then no boarder security. IN FACT, the DUMBS could have pandered to the undocumented voters when they controlled the House, the Senate, and the White House. Yet they didn't despite promising to protect them.
Yet, they demonized the repupnicans for shutting down the gooberment over protecting Americans against NobamaCare, . Then to DUMB Nobama weaponized the shut down to the point of closing a public road so people could not even drive by Mount Rushmore. Nobama shut down a WWII memorial which did not have gooberment expanse. , to the point of paying, during a a goobermet shutdown of renting baricades, paying for labor to erect them, and posting gooberment guards to prohibit entery.
, which did not deter WWII veterens from "storming the beach" and prevailing at a long planned pilgramise. Comrad Nobama, even shut down White Tours to school children, who planned, raised funds/time availibility, from seeeing what they , the dreamers wanted.
While I am discussing the gooberment shut down, "what the frack" ? Shutdown my azz. Weget screwed then they gat back pay. If I vote for a shutdown, I am voting for "no wages for me" untill I go back to work. I am voting to deprive Federalworkers a paycheck. I am vo4ing f oe food stamps to be ... forfieted or delayed. Oh my my, a gooberment shutdown.
I guess you're referring to my admonitions about name calling.
Recall at no time did I disagree with your basic premise that the progressive left is trying to fundamentally change this country.
What I was trying to say is that while you aren't going to sway a single one of those loons, there are plenty of middle of the road Democrats who presently have no where to go, politically speaking. In fact, a case could be made that they were at least partly responsible for Mr. Trump's ( and our ) victory.
Talking rough to those folks is not going to sway them to our cause. It wouldn't work on you, why do you think it would work on them?
BTW, there a recent article out there on the 'net, written by a mid-west Democrat that implores his leadership to find their way back to the middle. If you read it, these mid-west Dems hold values closer to Reps than coastal Dems. Sounds like they are ripe for the picking if approached properly.
Remember, someone who agrees with me 80% of the time IS NOT MY ENEMY.
Do I think it would be easy? No.
Is it worth the effort to be cordial? F*ckin' yeah.
Just don't lump Mr. and Mrs. lifelong Democrat in with them.
That's all I'm saying.
"Mr. and Mrs. lifelong Democrat" aren't functionally much different than the majority of so-called "moderate muslims" that refuse take a public stand against islamic terrorism.
Their complacency contributes to a growing hard left threat to this nation.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 01-20-2018).]
However, a lot of them are softliners and SOME portion of them are persuadable. All you do by using pejoratives is push them into the arms of the far left.
These folks have been middle of the road Democrats for their entire lives and they've been raised on the notion that Republicans are pure evil.
Then along comes a leader who, warts and all, is putting the nation first and the pieces are falling into place both nationally and internationally.
These middle of the road Democrats start to wonder who is it that they have more in common with. The next door Republican who they kinda get along with and agree with about 75% of the time or some coastal elite who is denying the facts that the nation is doing better and supports positions that sound completely off the wall to them.
So they think, hmmmmm, and then they go on Facebook or a car forum and a right wing pinhead immediately start calling them Democraps.
You just lost a convert, Bucky. They're going to retreat back to the safety of their upbringing. YOU WOULD TOO.
Frankly, though this is as obvious as the nose on my face, the responses don't surprise me because we've got a fair number of right side hardliners here.
I'm not speaking to them. That's as pointless as speaking to left side hardliners. Irrational hate is blinding no matter the political position. I'm speaking to other members with the hope that at least some will take my suggestion to heart.
Oh yeah and BTW, I have a softline Democrat wife who used to be a hardline Democrat. I sure as hell didn't get her to consider different possibilities by calling her an idiot.
So they think, hmmmmm, and then they go on Facebook or a car forum and a right wing pinhead immediately start calling them Democraps.
You just lost a convert, Bucky. They're going to retreat back to the safety of their upbringing. YOU WOULD TOO.
Comity and accommodation simply don't work and never have.
In fact that will be taken by a liberal leftist as agreement.
I know I've told the story on this forum before and I also know that there is at least one other member / contributor here that shares somewhat of a common history with me in that we were both very hard left in our college days. We were both members of the SDS, (Students for a Democratic Society). We probably made chuckleheads like "dobey" and "threedog" look tame by comparison now.
Based on that experience, and my life long observation since then, I can state with some measure of authority that there are usually only two things that bring a leftist liberal over to conservatism.
Maturity and self interest.
Maturity, whether it arrives as a result of chronology or experience is the first element. It's when the realization that there is no fantasy "utopia" hits. The stark realization that the world does not work the way they *think* it should and that there is real, absolute and intractable evil that cannot be negotiated with or appeased.
Self interest arrives when they realize that they are much better off by their own work and ingenuity than by the "generosity" of government and they begin to resent the hand of government as deeply as it digs into their own pockets.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 01-20-2018).]
Sorry, but we all do it. Even the rough, tough, independent minded types. When threatened we find comfort in the familiar.
This is an amazing discussion.
What causing you guys to take the position that you can go around calling people names who might come around to our way of thinking and expecting them to see your point of view?
"Sheepdogs" for lack of a better term. Those "rough, tough, independent minded types" who keep the wolves from breaking down the door.
Off topic, but you need to get with the new age program Randy. The new and improved and cutesy terminology for that type canine is LGD..Livestock Guard Dog. All the hobby farmers and backyard goat farmers and those with a 'family cow' just MUST have one or they aren't 'real' farmers or ranchers. Want to sell a dog? List it as an LGD and world will come a knockin with fistfulls of $$ in hand. We're talkin big money here too. It's a gimmick/marketing spiel, same as CAB.
There are some of us, (thankfully), who do not retreat from a threat, but rush to confront it.
"Sheepdogs" for lack of a better term. Those "rough, tough, independent minded types" who keep the wolves from breaking down the door.
Some of us will first try to eliminate the threat, or at a minimum, render it impotent.
"Hearts and minds" can come later.
So can "comfort in the familiar".
I don't know how to make this any simpler.
This isn't about fighting the good fight.
This is about reaching out to folks who hold similar values but have been inculcated in a vile ideology. You won't reach a single solitary one of them with name calling.
If you won't see that you've just found comfort in the familiar.
This is truly a sad conversation. You guys are actually defending the juvenile activity of calling people names and your pride is keeping you from admitting that just maybe I have a point.
Ray, I believe I understand what you are saying, and I agree with you. It is much like my widely misunderstood position in this thread.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...HTML/120507.html#p32 Ah yes, the watered down, kinder gentler approach. 'Think as you want but publicly say what people'.. (especially the opposition) 'want to hear', because that's what the opposition is going to do for us....riiight. On which planet? I've just never been much on suckin ass.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 01-21-2018).]
My say is that I just do not come out calling names. I give it a moment or two first. I try to give as much of myself here and in life as I can. It is the actions of others that quells my output of knowledge.
Truly enjoy your day folks.
As a side note, look how calm this thread is without the usual leftist lunacy.
If you think that this is anything other than a real battle for this nation and our freedom then you have no idea what you're up against.
This very much IS about "fighting the good fight".
That can't be made any simpler.
quote
Originally posted by RayOtton:
This is truly a sad conversation. You guys are actually defending the juvenile activity of calling people names and your pride is keeping you from admitting that just maybe I have a point.
Grow up.
Nobody has yet denied that you have a point to make or an opinion to express Ray.
However, disagreement with your opinion (or point) does not, of itself, make the conversation "sad" or make someone "juvenile" or prideful as you suggest, nor does anyone need to "grow up", but thanks for skipping ever so lightly along the border of the name calling that causes you so much consternation.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 01-23-2018).]
First, lets shut off the congressional members pay like all other government workers as long as theres a shutdown. Second, they can shut it down till the next election for all I care. VA and SS are not affected, and we wont have to pay income tax. I dont see a downside. I dont go to national parks and museums for the most part and from what I remember active duty military are not penalized for payments of anything due while theyre not being paid. Third, can we also shut down state and city governments too ?
Well, this thread did not go in the direction I hoped it would.
quote
Originally posted by RayOtton:
I don't know how to make this any simpler. This isn't about fighting the good fight.
This is about reaching out to folks who hold similar values but have been inculcated in a vile ideology. You guys are actually defending the juvenile activity of calling people names and your pride is keeping you from admitting that just maybe I have a point.
Grow up.
Well Ray, do you know how to fight ? The first rule in a fight is that there are no rules.
I don't even see it as a fight. I see it as a game. One of which all contestants can make the rules up as they go along.
Now, I can call you Ray, or I can call you ..... kidding, it just sounded good, . Ray, there is no one way or correct way to convert a Ddumbocrat, or that of a Rrepugnantcan. For the record, I think the Repulsivecans can in many ways be dumber than Dumocrats.
Ray, there is no one good way to beat down your opponent. Think police interrogation, good cop bad cop. Some times you have to adapt, to the opponent.
I don't look to sway any dumbocrats over to the good side, except by exposing the stupidity of their emotions/arguments. Do you know how to fish Ray ? Sometimes you have to play with your prey, to make them take the bait, and hook them. You can't do that by calling them dumbocrats.
Let me see if I can get this thread back on track, of the topic title.
I guess you're referring to my admonitions about name calling.
Recall at no time did I disagree with your basic premise that the progressive left is trying to fundamentally change this country.
What I was trying to say is that while you aren't going to sway a single one of those loons, there are plenty of middle of the road Democrats who presently have no where to go, politically speaking. In fact, a case could be made that they were at least partly responsible for Mr. Trump's ( and our ) victory.
Talking rough to those folks is not going to sway them to our cause. It wouldn't work on you, why do you think it would work on them?
BTW, there a recent article out there on the 'net, written by a mid-west Democrat that implores his leadership to find their way back to the middle. If you read it, these mid-west Dems hold values closer to Reps than coastal Dems. Sounds like they are ripe for the picking if approached properly.
Remember, someone who agrees with me 80% of the time IS NOT MY ENEMY.
Do I think it would be easy? No.
Is it worth the effort to be cordial? F*ckin' yeah.
On both sides of the isle, you have people who blindly vote a certain way... thinking / assuming that the way they're voting is right.
Granted, I clearly agree with one side far more, but my beliefs are well thought out, having voted both sides a few times over the years (for different reasons), it's pretty clear... to me at least... that the ball has shifted pretty considerably. I'd say we've ALL shifted left, to the extent that the Republican party is more like the part of the Democrats during John F. Kennedy's presidency, while the Democrats have fallen off the map / political spectrum that even Alexander Kruschev would blush.
But these life-long Democrats cannot be swayed by words, or discussion. A discussion or attack on Democrats to them is an attack on them personally... and then it becomes personal. These people need to be convinced through action... and that's doing things like the tax cut.
I know that no one here has actually seen reduced income taxes in their paychecks. That won't happen until likely the end of February. This week (or next week), the IRS will issue guidance on tax withholdings for corporations and organizations. These corporations have until February 15th to make adjustments to the withholdings for payroll. So... you all should see increased take-home pay on your paycheck at the end of the month of February. At that point, you will begin to see a lot of these Democrats change their minds.
Until then, it's just personal for them. The Democrat party have become MASTERMINDS of propaganda. I can't say this enough... the Democrat party is no longer the party of the Democrats that most of these people grew up with. They hoped maybe Hillary would provide that... that being a Bill Clinton-esq type of economic system (which was good... non-Keynesian. The rest of the Democrat party, particularly the Bernie people... most of them simply don't know any better. These millennials spent their entire adult lives under an Obama administration of "shared sacrifice." They only know Republican obstructionism... and they never knew the economy we had under Reagan, Bill Clinton, or even pre and post 9/11 before the housing bust. They also don't understand that it was government intervention that actually caused and promoted the housing boom and bust. These millennials just have no benchmark. So now, under Trump... they see the economy skyrocketing, and... when they see their paychecks going up in February... expect many of them to fall in line.
First, lets shut off the congressional members pay like all other government workers as long as theres a shutdown. Second, they can shut it down till the next election for all I care. VA and SS are not affected, and we wont have to pay income tax. I dont see a downside. I dont go to national parks and museums for the most part and from what I remember active duty military are not penalized for payments of anything due while theyre not being paid. Third, can we also shut down state and city governments too ?
I have been keeping an eye on this story. These are two very different shut downs. President Trump's words then ring true today. You are missing the point.
I do not like Donald Trump, but I am extremely impressed with President Trump.
Originally posted by Tony Kania: I have been keeping an eye on this story. These are two very different shut downs. President Trump's words then ring true today. You are missing the point.
I do not like Donald Trump, but I am extremely impressed with President Trump.
Ah, so its not the President's fault when Trump does it, but it is the democratic president's fault when he does it?
And then there is this on the White House voicemail...
quote
Thank you for calling the White House. Unfortunately, we cannot answer your call today, because congressional Democrats are holding government funding, including funding for our troops and other national security priorities, hostage to an unrelated immigration debate. Due to this obstruction, the government is shut down. In the meantime, you can leave a comment for the president at www.whitehouse.gov/contact. We look forward to taking your calls as soon as the government reopens.
But yeah, its the Democrats fault that partisanship exists.
The Democrats are getting what they asked for in the DACA mess, and are still holding the US citizens hostage. This tactic did not work last time, and is not working this time.
I am not going to argue with you. This is a case of black and white, and you see only red.
This administration is changing the way that I do business. You do not recall a time in your life when this has happened. I am comfortable with the situation at hand. I recognize what is taking place, and we are setting up operations accordingly. I will be hiring this year. I will be creating jobs, once again, and will put food onto tables that are not my own. Go ahead, try and take that away.
Originally posted by Tony Kania: I am not going to argue with you. This is a case of black and white, and you see only red.
Tony, are you off your meds ? He only sees blue, .
Threedog, are you the blind leading the blind, or the blind following the blind.
If you had any semblance of sense, you would recognize President, "the Donald" had the other party in the room to negotiate DACA. Televised on Natio al TV, lasting an hour. It was President "the Donald", who initiated a solution to the unconstitutional Nobama Executive Order, which Nobama said 27 times that he didn't have the authority/power to do. The Donald gave the authoritative body, Congress till March to solve the problem. The DUMBS could have done this in Nobamas first term.
I suggested to your President, before the shutdown, than he ought to scare the bejeezus out of the DUMBOCRATS. Your Pr Pesident Donald, went into black communities and asked for their vote. By saying, "for 50 years, every four years, that the Dumbs pander to the blacks, for your vote. Your life has not improved. Vote foe me, what do you have to loose ?"
The Donald got more black votes than McCain, Romney, and your President George W. Now, black unemployment are at all time record lows. Not exactly sure about hispanic unemployment but it has also improved dramatically.
My my, do you want to see the DUMBOCRATS heads explode ? Just wait till all the undocumented voters the DUMBS inportred, vote republican.
Threedog, are you the blind leading the blind, or the blind following the blind.
I'll wager that the later of the two is most apt and a more appropriate moniker might be threedogblindmice (see how they run?) as there are none so blind as those who will not see.
I'll wager that the later of the two is most apt and a more appropriate moniker might be threedogblindmice (see how they run?) as there are none so blind as those who will not see.
Maybe the problem is that Trump is a dirty liar who constantly changes his mind.
One day he says
quote
You guys are going to have to come up with a solution [for DACA], and I'm going to sign that solution.
My positions are going to be what the people in this room come up with," the president later told the press pool. "If they come to me with things I'm not in love with, I'm going to do it, because I respect them"
How can anyone possibly negotiate with that? There a reason that this president has been completely MIA during these negotiations, there is no negotiating with him.
Instead, he claims that the democrats don't want to fund the military?
Thats why this happened right? Where Mitch McConnell turned down extending military benefits during the shutdown.
But again, its the Democrats who hate the troops right? They were just trying to make sure they got paid and the Republicans turned them down..
[This message has been edited by Threedog (edited 01-22-2018).]
The two statements by OUR President, which you quoted, are not contradictory. There needs to be a reasonable, humanitarian solution to the fiasco created by Obama called DACA, but border security must be of utmost importance.
Maybe the problem is that Trump is a dirty liar who constantly changes his mind.
One day he says
quote You guys are going to have to come up with a solution [for DACA], and I'm going to sign that solution.
My positions are going to be what the people in this room come up with," the president later told the press pool. "If they come to me with things I'm not in love with, I'm going to do it, because I respect them"
Source
Then the very next day he says
quote "It's got to include the wall. ... Any solution has to include the wall because without the wall it doesn't work
Source
How can anyone possibly negotiate with that? There a reason that this president has been completely MIA during these negotiations, there is no negotiating with him.
Instead, he claims that the democrats don't want to fund the military?
Thats why this happened right? Where Mitch McConnell turned down extending military benefits during the shutdown.
But again, its the Democrats who hate the troops right? They were just trying to make sure they got paid and the Republicans turned them down..
You're not this dumb, are you?
This is a continuing resolution, not an immigration bill. DACA and the Wall had no business really being in there. The Democrats decided suddenly they wanted to put DACA in there... in a CR... so our President said if we were going to have DACA in there, then we need to have a wall in there.
The Democrats thought they were being slick... they caved today because they realized this was not having the desired effect. The comments by Schumer and Durbin afterwards was political theater to save face, nothing more, nothing less.
Pay attention more... stop being driven by talking points you get from liberal media.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: You're not this dumb, are you?
Yes Todd, he is.
Funny that he thinks we are dumber than he is. Shame on him, trying to hood wink us. Just like a DUMBOCRAT ! We all remember the unaffordable Affordable Health Care Act, aka, NOBAMACARE.
Threedog's President, prefaced his " I will sign your bill ", with stipulations. A WALL, END OF CHAIN MIGRATION, VISA LOTTERIES.
[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 01-22-2018).]
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: You're not this dumb, are you?
This is a continuing resolution, not an immigration bill. DACA and the Wall had no business really being in there. The Democrats decided suddenly they wanted to put DACA in there... in a CR... so our President said if we were going to have DACA in there, then we need to have a wall in there.
The Democrats thought they were being slick... they caved today because they realized this was not having the desired effect. The comments by Schumer and Durbin afterwards was political theater to save face, nothing more, nothing less.
Pay attention more... stop being driven by talking points you get from liberal media.
The immigration debate was absolutely included in this continuing resolution, it was the reason many Democrats would not agree to it. They wanted a promise from Mitch that there would actually be an open debate on it. Why did they want that? Because last time there was major legislation(Tax plan), Senate republicans did not even let the Democrats see the bill before they voted.
Democrats needed some kind of assurance that the republicans were going to have a discussion with them regarding the issues. This whole thing could have been avoided if Trump had just kept his word in the first place and listened to the bipartisan committee that had come to him with a solution to DACA.
. Then to DUMB Nobama weaponized the shut down to the point of closing a public road so people could not even drive by Mount Rushmore. Nobama shut down a WWII memorial which did not have gooberment expanse. 
, to the point of paying, during a a goobermet shutdown of renting baricades, paying for labor to erect them, and posting gooberment guards to prohibit entery.
, which did not deter WWII veterens from "storming the beach" and prevailing at a long planned pilgramise.
