Damage to roads is caused primarily by two things: weather and heavy trucks. The damage done by light vehicles is negligible. We all benefit from the infrastructure in many ways that we don't think about on a daily basis. When I was a kid in Florida in the '50s and '60s, the vehicle license tax was based on the weight of the vehicle. A Cadillac paid more than a VW. We need simpler tax structures, not more complicated ones.
Did your former company have those trailers with signs saying "This vehicle pays $xxxx in taxes......" ? I use to laugh when I saw them because I knew those vehicles did about twice as much damage as the tax they paid.
Did your former company have those trailers with signs saying "This vehicle pays $xxxx in taxes......" ? I use to laugh when I saw them because I knew those vehicles did about twice as much damage as the tax they paid.
I never worked for a company that used those signs, but as noted above, any additional costs are always passed on down the line to the end consumer. When fuel costs went through the roof a few years ago, fuel surcharges became prevalent and the cost of retail goods went up accordingly. Trucking companies run on a very slim margin and the biggest costs are fuel, driver's wages and tires in that order. (at least when I was in the industry)
I can tell ya if it happened in my state I'd have to quit my job.
The bennies of older cars, you know many will have a spare odom to stuff in it , then change before inspection, and why the east coast is going all fast pass, and hanging receivers in and on roads that are not tolls, why have receivers for fast pass and that cost to install if it isn't to fill the states till.. When they started popping up everywhere people went nuts and hammered the mass dot about it, and they claimed it wasn't for tolling but for traffic flow research, but they have been pushing this mileage tax long before cali, and The system will be set up and networked before the ink dries on the bill..They have no plans on passing the tax bill and then waiting in the system to be installed and networked, it'll be signed into law, and the switch turned on that night at 12.01am They sold it to you hook line and sinker, less waiting at tolls, get an easypass, then they remove the human or machine cash toll booths and only have fast pass tolling, the system is in place and once it starts , it'll crawl across the country.. state by state..
You are probably the dumbest person I've interacted with in a long time. Flat tax in theory is a great idea, in reality I guess people like you are too stupid to understand it and too many people would lose the finger they have in the pie that's inflating our taxes and associated costs. I don't ever expect to see any kind of federal flat tax in my lifetime, that won't stop me from arguing it's merits.
You are probably the dumbest person I've interacted with in a long time. Flat tax in theory is a great idea, in reality I guess people like you are too stupid to understand it and too many people would lose the finger they have in the pie that's inflating our taxes and associated costs. I don't ever expect to see any kind of federal flat tax in my lifetime, that won't stop me from arguing it's merits.
Federal income flat tax is NOT the same as a State road tax even if they tried a flat tax plan across the state, as it skips many from paying for the roads, and that is what you FAIL to understand, those outside the state that use the roads would be doing so free, nothing paid, like say a person that lives in Texas and calls others dumb/stupid and such.. In a single state where they have that much business commerce and tourist,AND illegals, that pay zero, it isn't any thing like the flat tax ideal you think it is.. Again not the same as a country wide flat tax.. Your thinking or lack of it, has only those in THAT state paying And only those legally living there, illegals pay zero, tourist pay zero, out of state business commerce travelling in the state pay zero, Family members living in the state but not counted as they are not on an address list or cencous . Sorry cali isn't it's own island cut off from the rest of the country.. Only way your theme flat road tax works is at the federal level, And even then it misses those not counted , That not pay a dime..
AT THE MOMENT!!!!!!!!!!!! everything and every one I listed now pays into cali tax till for road use through a fuel tax at the pump EVERYONE other than those that can fill up before crossing the state line and get out before they run out.. Those tourist, the commerce, those not on the list of living in the state(family) college kids, illegals, Yours hopes the per unit tax is the same or enough, So the vehicle rental places will love your thinking as they'll only pay next to NOTHING as one person/company will be listed as the owner and only get hit that 130.00 (your number) for lots full of rental vehicles.. Where as now every gallon pumped into them cali collects money for the till.. Somehow this dummie(me) thinks a fleet of 25000 vehicle paying per gallon rings the till much more than the owner (avis example) getting a bill for your 130.00 bucks or any business with many service vehicles and/or loaners or company cars. As the owner of the company only gets dinged for 130.00 once.. no matter how many vehicles they have tagged under that business name as your flat tax only dings every person that lives in cali.. A business that has many out of state workers but 1 owner, get hit for 130.00 (your number) but has 1200 out of state workers in their vehicles. losts of wear and peanuts collected.. as it's a state only tax not a federal across the country one.. Anyone that comes into the state driving would pay zero into it.. ZERO.. again unless they never fill up at all while there, they do now.. (example) costruction workers that will be crossing state lines to rebuild after the fires, your plan state flat tax, nothing collected. utility's vehicles that come help zero collected. any type business that crossed the state line to help rebuild zero collected.. Do you even have any idea how much unpaid wear that would be?? That those in the state that the tax man counts as living there would have to pay for, your number isn't even close, Nevermind it require the budget #'s to be correct and once the money was gone, and the account as at zero everything stopped, budgets never go over the funds collected or tax dollars they "think" they will be collecting.. Never ever are the CPA's budget numbers and reality having shortfalls.. And those short falls in the millions.. They'll keep spending and the money will have to come from somewhere else than your unicorn farts..
You are confusing a flat tax that everyone and anyone that uses the roads would pay into, again sorry Cali isn't it's own island that no one goes in or out of and that they know every last person living there to ding them all with that flat tax.. Joe smo That lives all summer out there with an uncle , pays nada, the family with 20 living in a home but only 2 listed as living there, 18 pay nada.. Where do you think all that missed dollars not hitting the till will come from, unicorn farts..
[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 12-15-2017).]
Federal income flat tax is NOT the same as a State road tax
Who said it was? Lol that last post is the definition of "word vomit" not one of your points is valid, the out of state traffic makes no difference if the budget is met. Claiming "it's not fair they don't pay the tax" is nonsense. The amount they pay now is always passed on to the consumer. Either the consumer in California or the consumer in another state.
If you have a new point that is remotely valid, let's here it. I'm not going to keep debating the same moronic arguments with you over and over again. If you want to keep going maybe you should log in as Keel again and have a conversation with yourself.
Well folks, while driving to Milwaukee, I was thinking about this mileage tax and how it might be put into action, how it could be paid for, how it might work and how it might affect tourism in the beautiful political confines of California.
Just how are they going to know how much a Californian drives? Is this tax only for those who reside in California or will visitor also have to pay to drive on CA roads? How to enforce and tax? An annual odometer check , OBD transponders reporting to big brother? Auto Dealers will have to report all mileage to the CA IRS?
Some one like myself who drives quite a bit could pay handsomely but, I'm already paying a fuel tax. Tourism is going to take a big hit in CA if this moves forward. I can see it now, as you cross the state line go to Disneyland, you have a monitor tagged to your vehicle and a tax bill is sent to you as you depart.
I'm not suggesting a mileage tax isn't the way to go but, I think we need to be honest about it and only apply it to those who aren't paying their fair share for road maintenance. Hybrid owners/drivers and those damn bicyclist.
------------------ Rams
Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun.... Open your frigg'n minds, think about all the other tools that can be made into WMDs.
My wife told me to grow up. I told her to get out of my fort!
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 12-15-2017).]
Chill out U guys u dont even live in cali. i do. I just saw gas jump almost 20 cents overnight. diesel is waaaay up. glad I got rid O my pos ford lol.
They check the mileage at smog checks every 2 years also n when the cars sold. They could just tax it on that.
Still got hit w a $154 weight fee for my new chevy, looks like 3/4 ton n up get it. bastards. Still $331 bucks to register my 06
shem
shem, The problem is, the crap California starts ends up stinking up the rest of the country.
Checking mileage every couple of years will not be sufficient for tax purposes. About the only way I can come up with to track mileage on a regular basis would be one of those OBD tracking devices. Which means, Big Brother will also be tracking your every move. As far as I'm concerned, that GM tracking program has already taken it too far. I think it's called OnStar but, not sure.
I'll agree to such things when everyone pays their fair share. I'm waiting to see how they are going to attach one of those tracking devices to a bicycle.
Now, obviously there are folks that need to be tracked. That Ray guy comes to mind..................
Sounds easy to me cause I pay estimated income taxes every quarter anyway. Just add another space for estimated miles driven. Could even have a penalty for underestimation, just like income tax.
Sounds easy to me cause I pay estimated income taxes every quarter anyway. Just add another space for estimated miles driven. Could even have a penalty for underestimation, just like income tax.
The future of the U.S. looks like California.
Yeah, looks like we'll be adding another layer of government employees to check, investigate fraud and process this new tax. Just what we needed.
Bishop- If the $130 is less that what i pay a year in all the other taxes combined, then yeah im all for it. But theyre taxing road maint on gas, when not all use gas. So yeah the hybrid n electric drivers are saving on that while the gas users are paying for the whole thing. While I see TONS on damn fuc&^ng prius 's, teslas, n nissan leafs, those cars r tiny n dont weigh much so not doing much damage to the roads vs bigrigs- If its a tax to repair the roads then anything using the roads should be taxed. (its california theyll tax people for walking lol)
either way, the roads here suck, they will always suck, and traffic on the freeways will always be horrendous at all hours of the day. (its a fu*9ing freeway- all u have to do is go straight, no lights, no stops, just go. straight. but its still takes me 40-80 mins to go 10 miles away. Anytime of day! Yay!
Cali is the testing ground for greed. And yes its obvious u can totally rip people off. So sorry yawls it comin your way eventually.
But hy look on the bright side- greed is unbiased like death. It doesnt matter what.... yeah it doesnt matter its gonna get ya
Bishop- If the $130 is less that what i pay a year in all the other taxes combined, then yeah im all for it. But theyre taxing road maint on gas, when not all use gas.
shem
When you do the math if you divide the proposed 5 billion dollar budget by the rough number of residents, it's around $50. Not surprisingly, nobody checked my math when I said it was roughly $130. I want to know how the current taxes can't cover the budget?
Taxing people who use the roads more sounds fair but in reality, you can tax them all you want, the consumer still pays for it. It should come down to ownership, they are public roads and everyone has the same rights to use them(in theory, the are exceptions) so I think you could justify a flat tax rate to come up with the 5 billion dollar budget after you get rid of all the other ridiculous road taxes.
When you do the math if you divide the proposed 5 billion dollar budget by the rough number of residents, it's around $50. Not surprisingly, nobody checked my math when I said it was roughly $130. I want to know how the current taxes can't cover the budget?
Taxing people who use the roads more sounds fair but in reality, you can tax them all you want, the consumer still pays for it. It should come down to ownership, they are public roads and everyone has the same rights to use them(in theory, the are exceptions) so I think you could justify a flat tax rate to come up with the 5 billion dollar budget after you get rid of all the other ridiculous road taxes.
What I don't understand is, how you can't understand if the state of cali is taking in more than they budget for road up keep now and it goes into a general fund and the the extra is used elsewhere and the state id broke, why you think they only "try" to collect what the state road dept needs, and not what they are collecting now, As anytime they change anything it is always what it is now + more, never less.. And anyone with half a brain knows they collect much much more than 50 bucks on those vehicle owners in the state never mind those not in it that pass in and out and trucks. nevermind your math requires those with no vehicle to foot the cost, kinda like forcing those that don't use public transportation pay for it by upping road tolls.. (like say ma. did many times over) You like most liberals want others that don't use the item personally have to pay it.. The aguement of even those that don't have a vehicle need and use the roads is a farse and here is why, If your arguement that the bus/taxi/ubber/lyft etc divides the cost and passes it on to the customer, then so does the trucking company moving the goods and the service delivering them(usps/ups/fedx/etc). So them having to personally be taxed also for this flat tax farse of yours means they get to be taxed twice.. once for a vehicle they don't have and 2nd by buying goods and paying through the price of the goods.. At least the vehicle owner is personally using the roads and getting hit twice.. Sorry it's hard to understand as it's not liberal logic..
Oh you think they'll give up that extra they take in now with the excise and fuel and tag, and inspection and tag renewal funds.. Right, rigggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhttttt . Your replies always skip out on the vehicles that are used on the roads the most miles per year and your talking point s that the customer splits it, not the fact that they cause the most wear but only pay once.. The argument that smaller vehicles don't do damage wear is unicorn dust as streets with no heavy traffic and zero reg traffic get beat to hell. if the opinion of smaller /lighter vehicles didn't cause wear side roads that are not truck routes would be paved and never need to be repaved, cause like weather and crap doesn't harm it right, the sun baking the oils out of it doesn't harm it, na.. The guy with an electric is posting every time to debunk this as he wants to keep his free ride of paying almost nothing into the road repair till if it ever came to his state, cause he doesn't live in cali, per his location but that might be not true, Sorry you hybrid and all electrics have had your free right welfare ticket long enough time to pay your fair share , mileage tax will do this.. either by requiring a speed/fast pass transponder with tags, or a plug in module to the obII port, out of state drivers will also pay, as they'll never drop the at pump tax once a tax is in place it almost never is dropped.. and the police in cali can always target out of state plates, na that never happen , no states do that, right, right.. unicorn dust/farts are not reality..
So big guy what did the state and local of cali take in in dollars in 2014/15/16 through tag fees/excise/ and fuel taxes both diesel and gas and propane, and n/g? and how much was that number over the dpw's budget number, and why you think they give up the difference that they already spend, and if they were to ever ever give up the extra funds from road taxes where you think they'll go after to replace those funds that they are already spending as it's not sitting in a rainday account of surplus.. There is a reason the split the road fees into multi streams of funding and why they deposit it into a general fund, it is so you can't just look and see that they neex 5 billion and took in 25 billion and raise holy blue hell.. most can't see the connections and can't or won't do the math and the government tax offices smile knowing this.. You've shown it here this thread.. buy again I'm the one that stupid with math, bawahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can see how all 3 places you managed were run into the ground..
[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 12-15-2017).]
So as a Californian, how would you feel about an extra $130 on your state income tax and have all the other road taxes including on fuel, disappear?
I just don't see this math adding up? To "pay for roads" will require MUCH more than your estimate. BUT: there is much more to pay for here than roads. This current Californian administration is DESPERATE to find funds for the pipe dream train. Those funds will come from any and ALL funds they can steal from including road repair budgets. This is a sad fact that we are burdened with. Any time we pay to "fix" roads, money is found to pay for a sad unrealistic an d unneeded amtrak train to no where. To to answer your question point blank, the answer is no, it won't be enough to pay for road repairs.
I don't know what the fee will be per mile, but if on average a car is driven 35,000 miles a year, and the fee is one cent per mile, the fees would be $350 per car.
If the average car gets 25 miles per gallon, and does 35,000 miles a year, with an $.18 tax per gallon, they are paying about $250 a year in fees to fix roads. I just don't see your estimate working to fix roads in California.
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 12-17-2017).]
Sorry, my numbers in the previous post are off. I used an estimate of $.18 tax and fees per gallon, it is closer to $.42 per gallon. That puts the per car gas tax each year at close to $600. That says to me that the Government will never allow a flat tax of $130 a year to happen. The loss of income would be unbearable for them. Gas is an easy sin tax. And a train is expensive. http://www.sandiegouniontri...-20170413-story.html
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 12-17-2017).]
That says to me that the Government will never allow a flat tax of $130 a year to happen. The loss of income would be unbearable for them.
Your numbers are per car, mine are per resident. The math is irrefutable but like you say, misapropriation and greed is the reason you'd never see such a tax.
California needs to forget about the "tube train".
Your numbers are per car, mine are per resident. The math is irrefutable but like you say, misapropriation and greed is the reason you'd never see such a tax.
California needs to forget about the "tube train".
I honestly am not trying to argue with you because I am not against a flat tax of some kind. But under any tax structure, I don't see the "poor" paying the same rate as the "rich" given the fact that tax right offs buy votes for politicians. So, just what % of the population do you think will accually pay tax? I am thinking it will be around 50%. Now this is just a guess, but a realistic guess given the current opinions on tax plans and incentives to get the public to go for it.
I honestly am not trying to argue with you because I am not against a flat tax of some kind. But under any tax structure, I don't see the "poor" paying the same rate as the "rich" given the fact that tax right offs buy votes for politicians. So, just what % of the population do you think will accually pay tax? I am thinking it will be around 50%. Now this is just a guess, but a realistic guess given the current opinions on tax plans and incentives to get the public to go for it.
In theory, even if only 50% payed a $130 tax, that would more than make up the 5 billion proposed budget. Simplifying taxes simplifies enforcement. I don't know the current tax compliance is in California currently but I doubt it's under 50%.
In theory, even if only 50% payed a $130 tax, that would more than make up the 5 billion proposed budget. Simplifying taxes simplifies enforcement. I don't know the current tax compliance is in California currently but I doubt it's under 50%.
Sorry, I just don't see it. California is has MANY issues financially speaking. One is misapropriation but another is unfunded liability. California has not payed into State worker retirement funds for years. As it is right now, the retirement system is a ponzi scheme and is above water only because of the influx of new workers. Californiansare suckeres for bonds and borrowing money without an clue as to how to pay them off. The roads are the least of our long term worries, and the Government says they don't have enough to pay for that? Sorry, I have to agree that your $130 a person tax plan is not going to work,......not even close. We have a HUGE pension and education plan for illegals and career welfare deadbeats to pay for that we refuse to address too. This is all from the same nutshell games of finding funding under the loophole called general funds. No matter the laws put in place stating that "no other uses for these funds are allowed", the nutshell game siphons money for pet projects all the time. For all we know, the "road tax" is just a cool name for easily accessible money for discretionary Government use.
Sorry, I just don't see it. California is has MANY issues financially speaking. One is misapropriation but another is unfunded liability. California has not payed into State worker retirement funds for years. As it is right now, the retirement system is a ponzi scheme and is above water only because of the influx of new workers. Californiansare suckeres for bonds and borrowing money without an clue as to how to pay them off. The roads are the least of our long term worries, and the Government says they don't have enough to pay for that? Sorry, I have to agree that your $130 a person tax plan is not going to work,......not even close. We have a HUGE pension and education plan for illegals and career welfare deadbeats to pay for that we refuse to address too. This is all from the same nutshell games of finding funding under the loophole called general funds. No matter the laws put in place stating that "no other uses for these funds are allowed", the nutshell game siphons money for pet projects all the time. For all we know, the "road tax" is just a cool name for easily accessible money for discretionary Government use.
Precisely why the rest of the country is willing to give CA back to Mexico I'm told. But the problem with that is, then they would ask for foreign aide.....
Precisely why the rest of the country is willing to give CA back to Mexico I'm told. But the problem with that is, then they would ask for foreign aide.....
On a more dubious note, the Government is not going to miss an opportunity to take our money so they can spend. They will not drop taxes unless they are challenged in court and loose, otherwise even the "short term" " temporary" taxes are permanent. The State WILL NOT give up the gas tax no matter what other taxes are imposed. So the exchange of one road tax to replace a gas road tax is not even worth talking about.
On a more dubious note, the Government is not going to miss an opportunity to take our money so they can spend. They will not drop taxes unless they are challenged in court and loose, otherwise even the "short term" " temporary" taxes are permanent. The State WILL NOT give up the gas tax no matter what other taxes are imposed. So the exchange of one road tax to replace a gas road tax is not even worth talking about.
Precisely the reason the voters of CA and to be honest, the rest of the US need to elect budget conscious leadership. But that isn't likely to happen. Voters tend to look at what good for me versus what's good for us. Most won't wake up to the fact that someone has to pay for the sins of the past. You just can't keep pushing it on to the next generation. Eventually that house of cards is going to fall.
Back to the Being taxed per mile, I've been thinking about it, it's a fair thing to do as long as they drop the fuel tax. Hybrids and Electric should not get a break. But, let's not forget about those damn bicyclist either.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 12-17-2017).]
Sorry, I just don't see it. California is has MANY issues financially speaking. One is misapropriation but another is unfunded liability. California has not payed into State worker retirement funds for years. As it is right now, the retirement system is a ponzi scheme and is above water only because of the influx of new workers. Californiansare suckeres for bonds and borrowing money without an clue as to how to pay them off. The roads are the least of our long term worries, and the Government says they don't have enough to pay for that? Sorry, I have to agree that your $130 a person tax plan is not going to work,......not even close. We have a HUGE pension and education plan for illegals and career welfare deadbeats to pay for that we refuse to address too. This is all from the same nutshell games of finding funding under the loophole called general funds. No matter the laws put in place stating that "no other uses for these funds are allowed", the nutshell game siphons money for pet projects all the time. For all we know, the "road tax" is just a cool name for easily accessible money for discretionary Government use.
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, his way is right, just ask him.. his math is right, just ask him, his formula is right just ask him.. soon you'll get the reply I'm not going round and round with you, as he has nothing, and refuses to answer questions about it.. only calling those that don't go with is plan stupid and dumb.. good luck tho...
On a more dubious note, the Government is not going to miss an opportunity to take our money so they can spend. They will not drop taxes unless they are challenged in court and loose, otherwise even the "short term" " temporary" taxes are permanent. The State WILL NOT give up the gas tax no matter what other taxes are imposed. So the exchange of one road tax to replace a gas road tax is not even worth talking about.
I stated this many post ago, but He knows how liberal governments work.. and doesn't agree.. FYI you'll most likely get negged by him a few times daily.. just a FYI so you might want to just agree with him and let the thread die..
Tourism is going to take a big hit in CA if this moves forward. I can see it now, as you cross the state line go to Disneyland, you have a monitor tagged to your vehicle and a tax bill is sent to you as you depart. 
