So I'm going to go out on a limb and say that despite the sweat shops in China, that the hourly wage is not a dollar an hour, but closer to four dollars an hour.
Brad
Not when you take into account those workers in china are working 12 hour days, 7 days a week that doesn't work out to those numbers per hour now does it. Why because that's how they work their workers over there, there is no such thing as a 40 hour week over there, just here, and no such thing as overtime.
unless of course you are one of these people, workers in factories don't fall under these rules.
The Standard Working Hour System provides that an employee may work no more than 8 hours per day and, as such, working hours are capped at 40 hours per week. Any work that exceeds the maximum limit of 8 hours per day, or 40 hours per week, is considered overtime. In contrast, the Flexible Working Hour System provides no limit on an employee’s working hours. However, the Flexible Working Hour System is only applicable to certain positions as specified by PRC law (e.g. senior management, sales staff and drivers). Finally, the Comprehensive Working Hour System is only applicable to certain industries as specified by PRC law (e.g. staff in transportation, railway, shipping, aviation, fishery, construction and tourist industries). The Comprehensive Working Hour System provides that an employee’s working hours are calculated periodically (e.g. per week, month, quarter or year) although the average working hours shall be generally the same as the Standard Working Hour System.
Honestly, you guys arguing with him are wasting your time. Ray is an admitted socialist. Let's face it, a person who can't recognize the contradiction in calling welfare recipients victims while demonizing those who pay it isn't capable of even remotely rational thought. Period. There's really no where to go from there.
ray has never been a commie a socialist or even a democrat recognizing good ideas no matter the -isum attached by some is rational thought a concept that escapes the rabid rightwingers
it is not that I love the left just that I hate the right more because of the constant BIG LIES AND THEIR COMPLETE FAILURE TO ever correct their many errors or even admit their responsibility when their BS is caught
ray has never been a commie a socialist or even a democrat recognizing good ideas no matter the -isum attached by some is rational thought a concept that escapes the rabid rightwingers
it is not that I love the left just that I hate the right more because of the constant BIG LIES AND THEIR COMPLETE FAILURE TO ever correct their many errors or even admit their responsibility when their BS is caught
So the Democrats and the left never lie? Only the Republicans and people on the right do? Surely you can't believe that.
ray has never been a commie a socialist or even a democrat recognizing good ideas no matter the -isum attached by some is rational thought a concept that escapes the rabid rightwingers
it is not that I love the left just that I hate the right more because of the constant BIG LIES AND THEIR COMPLETE FAILURE TO ever correct their many errors or even admit their responsibility when their BS is caught
Just replace left with right and and right with left and you have the viewpoints of many others on the forum and across America. This is why Congress' approval rating is in the teens.
[This message has been edited by aceman (edited 08-06-2014).]
have you got a list like the one I just did of what exactly the union did when to who about what? or just more myths ?
Well, some are pretty simple, rayb.
The democrat governor and his pandering to the ABUSIVE (of the taxpayer) public worker's unions resulted in a TWO BILLION DOLLAR budget deficit.
In the short time we have had a republican governor in Wisconsin, there is now a 1 billion dollar budget surplus.
Property taxes are being frozen or reduced. How does that only benefit the 1%, rayb? That's the "socialist/democrat talking point" you keep spouting.
The public worker's union got neutered. Do you want to know the abuse that got heaped on the poor public worker's as a result? They had to contribute (gasp. The horrors. Brace yourself. Oh the humanity) about $120/month to their health insurance costs.
Now that isn't an insignificant amount. I'm not minimizing that. But it only reduced their compensation to STILL way over the average other worker in Wisconsin. So essentially they were WAY greedy and out of the market in what they were demanding, and they got their PRIVILEGE (not RIGHT) of their bargaining power stripped for abusing it, and even then the republican government didn't enact retribution on them. And you turn that into 1% er greed talking points.
You mentioned your socialist utopia of germany. Someone calls you on it and mentions all the other ones that are failed and broken. Well, the U.S. would be one of the broken ones. We don't have a relatively homogeneous population like Germany. Your fundamental flaws in thinking are so simplistic, they are really shocking.
But keep rolling out your talking points. Like the media, if you say them often enough, you will get some people to believe them.
The democrat governor and his pandering to the ABUSIVE (of the taxpayer) public worker's unions resulted in a TWO BILLION DOLLAR budget deficit.
In the short time we have had a republican governor in Wisconsin, there is now a 1 billion dollar budget surplus.
Property taxes are being frozen or reduced. How does that only benefit the 1%, rayb? That's the "socialist/democrat talking point" you keep spouting.
The public worker's union got neutered. Do you want to know the abuse that got heaped on the poor public worker's as a result? They had to contribute (gasp. The horrors. Brace yourself. Oh the humanity) about $120/month to their health insurance costs.
Now that isn't an insignificant amount. I'm not minimizing that. But it only reduced their compensation to STILL way over the average other worker in Wisconsin. So essentially they were WAY greedy and out of the market in what they were demanding, and they got their PRIVILEGE (not RIGHT) of their bargaining power stripped for abusing it, and even then the republican government didn't enact retribution on them. And you turn that into 1% er greed talking points.
You mentioned your socialist utopia of germany. Someone calls you on it and mentions all the other ones that are failed and broken. Well, the U.S. would be one of the broken ones. We don't have a relatively population like Germany. Your fundamental flaws in thinking are so simplistic, they are really shocking.
But keep rolling out your talking points. Like the media, if you say them often enough, you will get some people to believe them.
And maybe you can ruin another country.
germany is far from only germans with 6 million turks lots of eastern euro's too and the questions is why is germany doing so well not a nut-con deflection about other country's as that is not near a call
so stay near the topic german success with unions and all the other stuff the nut-con's fear
Just replace left with right and and right with left and you have the viewpoints of many others on the forum and across America. This is why Congress' approval rating is in the teens.
but the left is not the DARK SIDE THE RIGHT IS WAS AND LOOKS LIKE IT WILL BE SOLIDLY ON THE DARK SIDE AND PROUD OF IT TOO
So the Democrats and the left never lie? Only the Republicans and people on the right do? Surely you can't believe that.
BACK TO THE ABSOLUTIST BS
i NEVER SAID ANYTHING CLOSE TO THAT
I just said the right include the BIG LIE as a major part of their act never ever admit it ether or correct their failed dogma and think the answer is try again harder with proven to fail ideals ie the classic definition of insanity
and are still 60 years on are still afraid of reds under the beds
I just said the right include the BIG LIE as a major part of their act never ever admit it ether or correct their failed dogma and think the answer is try again harder with proven to fail ideals ie the classic definition of insanity
and are still 60 years on are still afraid of reds under the beds
Maybe, just maybe, if you were to actually criticize the Democrats/Left once in a while, one wouldn't be able to so easily conclude that you only criticize one group. But instead, you vehemently chastise only one side of the isle. Right-wing this and right-wing that all of the time from your posts easily allows one to make the conclusion that I did. So I apologize for jumping to that conclusion. So continue with your criticism of the Democrats/Left please.
but the left is not the DARK SIDE THE RIGHT IS WAS AND LOOKS LIKE IT WILL BE SOLIDLY ON THE DARK SIDE AND PROUD OF IT TOO
Let's take a head count. Dems control half of the legislature as well as the white house. Back in 2009-10, they controlled all of the legislature AND the white house. Where was/is the sweeping labor bill that will outlaw imports and force manufacturing to come back within our shores and borders? Where is the repeal of NAFTA (which CLINTON signed by the way)?
Obama has a pen and a phone doesn't he? Where is the call to the left coast to shut down the ports and block the Chinese goods from coming in? He could use his pen to drastically increase tariffs on foreign made goods to tip the trade deficit back to our favor which would reopen manufacturing in this country. WHY ISN'T THIS BEING DONE RAY?
So they can continue to turn out mediocre products, instead of investing in their company, develop new/better products which people will pay a higher price for and keep US workers employed.... yeah, sounds about right
When I was a child, I was raised to buy the best quality items I could afford and take care of them. Today, most people think that quality isn't worth the price, and buy cheap disposable items, only to replace them when they quit working. Sadly, the marketplace has changed.....
When I was a child, I was raised to buy the best quality items I could afford and take care of them. Today, most people think that quality isn't worth the price, and buy cheap disposable items, only to replace them when they quit working. Sadly, the marketplace has changed.....
From my experience, even high quality items don't last very long any more. At least not like they used to. To save money or increase income, companies will take their high quality line and add a few cost saving measures, which reduce the quality of the product (usually internal parts that can be shared across various lines). Look at Craftsman tools, as an example. I wouldn't hesitate to buy craftsman tools, in the past. But now... well, they just are not that special, for the price. Sure, I can get them on sale, but I would rather have Craftsman focus on quality and warranty, vs "new gadgets, grips, etc..." Just give me a tool that will work!
During most our lifetimes, the only competition in the marketplace was from domestic companies, and they competed on value (quality products at a reasonable price). As the rest of the world started to rebuild or create their manufacturing infrastructure after WWII, our markets started to be infused with lower cost (and lower quality) items that began taking market share from domestic manufacturers. And so the downward spiral began...... If people want to place blame for offshoring of American jobs, blame Congress in the 60's and 70's for not protecting our markets, and the American consumer for their purchasing decisions.
If people want to place blame for offshoring of American jobs, blame Congress in the 60's and 70's for not protecting our markets, and the American consumer for their purchasing decisions.
Isn't that against capitalism? That thinking is along the same lines as why we should have unions... to "protect our workers". Frankly, in the 70s, companies were producing the same stuff, just with new colors. Look at the auto industry during that time. At least outside competition forced the big 3 to develop more practical, efficient, better looking cars
Isn't that against capitalism? That thinking is along the same lines as why we should have unions... to "protect our workers". Frankly, in the 70s, companies were producing the same stuff, just with new colors. Look at the auto industry during that time. At least outside competition forced the big 3 to develop more practical, efficient, better looking cars
Every country in the world, since the beginning of civilization has protected their own markets, while taking measures to expand into the markets of other countries. Its not against capitalism, its part of capitalism. We dropped the ball.
Every country in the world, since the beginning of civilization has protected their own markets, while taking measures to expand into the markets of other countries. Its not against capitalism, its part of capitalism. We dropped the ball.
Protecting business from unfair practices is good... protecting employees from unfair labor is bad? I guess I don't see how you can be for one, but not the other. I would think protecting employees would be at a similar level of protecting businesses.... both are valuable resources to a country.
From my experience, even high quality items don't last very long any more.
I don't think that makes any sense. Being high quality means that it is built well and should last a long time. You can put "high quality" on anything you want, but it doesn't mean that it is. It's like childrens schools all claiming that they are a Montessori school when they are clearly not.
quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder:
Protecting business from unfair practices is good... protecting employees from unfair labor is bad? I guess I don't see how you can be for one, but not the other. I would think protecting employees would be at a similar level of protecting businesses.... both are valuable resources to a country.
A company not sharing every dime of its profit with its employees is not unfair labor. Labor, like with product, is supply and demand. We are ALL affected by that. labor of varying skill levels demand varying levels of pay.
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 08-07-2014).]
A company not sharing every dime of its profit with its employees is not unfair labor. Labor, like with product, is supply and demand. We are ALL affected by that. labor of varying skill levels demand varying levels of pay.
I never said they had to share every dime of profit. I am not sure where are you going with the varying levels of pay, as that is true. Are you saying that people in unions are paid the same amount no matter what they do? If so, that is not true. There are pay levels based on job title and if you switch jobs, your pay may go up or down.
Protecting business from unfair practices is good... protecting employees from unfair labor is bad? I guess I don't see how you can be for one, but not the other. I would think protecting employees would be at a similar level of protecting businesses.... both are valuable resources to a country.
Please show me where in this thread I have said anything negative about unionization. For the record, my own experience with unions is considerable.
I never said they had to share every dime of profit. I am not sure where are you going with the varying levels of pay, as that is true. Are you saying that people in unions are paid the same amount no matter what they do? If so, that is not true. There are pay levels based on job title and if you switch jobs, your pay may go up or down.
As a GM UAW retiree, I can definitely say that: All electricians get paid the same. I was one and that is the way it works. It doesn't matter how good you are nor how skilled you are nor how hard you work. The harder you work the more the bosses pile work on you, because most of the workers don't work since they were not pushed to work. I retired and went to a small company which was not unionized. I truly enjoyed that much better than working for GM. If my work was not up to par, my pay didn't increase or I might get let go. If I did a great job my pay would increase and I was rewarded for my hard work. In GM the union may have started to help the workers, but while I was there it was mostly there to keep the worst workers in the plant no matter what they did or didn't do.
As a GM UAW retiree, I can definitely say that: All electricians get paid the same. I was one and that is the way it works. It doesn't matter how good you are nor how skilled you are nor how hard you work. The harder you work the more the bosses pile work on you, because most of the workers don't work since they were not pushed to work. I retired and went to a small company which was not unionized. I truly enjoyed that much better than working for GM. If my work was not up to par, my pay didn't increase or I might get let go. If I did a great job my pay would increase and I was rewarded for my hard work. In GM the union may have started to help the workers, but while I was there it was mostly there to keep the worst workers in the plant no matter what they did or didn't do.
As a GM UAW retiree, I can definitely say that: All electricians get paid the same. I was one and that is the way it works. It doesn't matter how good you are nor how skilled you are nor how hard you work. The harder you work the more the bosses pile work on you, because most of the workers don't work since they were not pushed to work. I retired and went to a small company which was not unionized. I truly enjoyed that much better than working for GM. If my work was not up to par, my pay didn't increase or I might get let go. If I did a great job my pay would increase and I was rewarded for my hard work. In GM the union may have started to help the workers, but while I was there it was mostly there to keep the worst workers in the plant no matter what they did or didn't do.
You speak truth. I have many family members that either currently work for union shops or just retired from them. And they basically all say the same thing as you. There is no incentive to work harder or do a better job when you are in a union shop. As a matter of fact, in one case a family member of mine started working harder (because that is just the kind of person he is) and was ostracized on the job by his co-workers because he was making them look bad. The harassment got so bad he finally just decided to take early retirement rather than deal with it. His union threw him under the bus and wouldn't do anything about the harassment coming from the other workers.
As a GM UAW retiree, I can definitely say that: All electricians get paid the same. I was one and that is the way it works. It doesn't matter how good you are nor how skilled you are nor how hard you work. The harder you work the more the bosses pile work on you, because most of the workers don't work since they were not pushed to work. I retired and went to a small company which was not unionized. I truly enjoyed that much better than working for GM. If my work was not up to par, my pay didn't increase or I might get let go. If I did a great job my pay would increase and I was rewarded for my hard work. In GM the union may have started to help the workers, but while I was there it was mostly there to keep the worst workers in the plant no matter what they did or didn't do.
Very refreshing to hear honest comments from a union worker.
You speak truth. I have many family members that either currently work for union shops or just retired from them. And they basically all say the same thing as you. There is no incentive to work harder or do a better job when you are in a union shop. As a matter of fact, in one case a family member of mine started working harder (because that is just the kind of person he is) and was ostracized on the job by his co-workers because he was making them look bad. The harassment got so bad he finally just decided to take early retirement rather than deal with it. His union threw him under the bus and wouldn't do anything about the harassment coming from the other workers.
I put in 32 years and had a hard time dealing with the back stabbing and all of the other people telling me that I was killing the job. And where did their idea of job security get them? Why most of the ones I worked with are retired and on pension. Their sons and daughters are now working for the Chinese company that bought out the bankrupt company that I worked for, originally Saginaw Steering Gear, part of GM, then it was Delphi (which is when I left). Now they are owned by the Chinese.
While I am at it, I will let you know about another little secret. The ones that don't work or don't do much work make more money than the ones who do work hard. Why? Because the jobs they are on are always behind production, so the supervisors ask them to work overtime. Overtime equals more money for them.
I can remember coming in to work the floor (which is troubleshooting and repairing the machines) and there would be 10, 15 or more machines down. No one worried about it in the skilled trades. I would start out and by mid-shift I had caught up. Then the other electricians from the previous shift would leave and I would get the jobs they were working on to fix since they hadn't done anything in the 12 hours they were supposed to be working on it. Some was incompetence, but most was laziness.
I was tired after working and fixing the machines so I very seldom worked more than 8 hours in row. But, these others were putting in 12 or more hours each day. And what did it achieve other than padding their wallets?
Each union/management relationship must be taken on an individual basis. I don't like conflictual labor/management situations. They waste time, energy and resources.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: You realize that unions and high taxes are the REASON why companies have moved overseas, right?
quote
Originally posted by carnut122:
I thought it was $2.00 per day labor?
AND NO OR LITTLE POLLUTION REGULATION OR SAFETY OR RIGHTS OR ECT
I suspect unions and taxes are far down the list really with low capital investment and operational cost at the top that inc buildings and machines plus labor costs raw materials energy transport ect
next is the freedom from a lot of rules and regs pollution workers rights safety hours breaks ect
taxes is some what lower plus or minus the credits exemptions and other games state or locals play CORPrat taxes are a MYTH as most pay a few % at best many pay none to the feds and offshore earnings are untaxed [unless imported] along with many many other loop holes most USA CORPrats pay little in federal taxes [real bottom line ] not BS RATES FOR taxes
and unions lower still
YOUR DOGMA FAILS THE REAL WORLD NUMBERS AGAIN
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
Maybe, just maybe, if you were to actually criticize the Democrats/Left once in a while, one wouldn't be able to so easily conclude that you only criticize one group. But instead, you vehemently chastise only one side of the isle. Right-wing this and right-wing that all of the time from your posts easily allows one to make the conclusion that I did. So I apologize for jumping to that conclusion. So continue with your criticism of the Democrats/Left please.
CORPrat taxes are a MYTH as most pay a few % at best many pay none to the feds and offshore earnings are untaxed [unless imported] along with many many other loop holes most USA CORPrats pay little in federal taxes [real bottom line ] not BS RATES FOR taxes
Ok, so back in 2009-10 when the Dems held both houses of congress AND the white house, why wasn't this "tax loophole" closed? I never heard ANY proposed legislation concerning the matter.
My guess is the Dems don't want to actually fix any problems because then they wouldn't have anything to run on for the next election. If you really want to talk about a do-nothing party, the Dems fit that bill perfectly. All they do is talk about the problems but NEVER offer any actual solutions that would fix anything.
